Randy Orton: All-Time Great or One-Trick Pony

[S.J. Maximus]

Randy Orton is easily one of the most polarizing figures in the WWE today. People either praise his abilities or shun him as "Blandy Boreton". In a lot of threads that I've seen on here, people have actually named Orton as someone they'd want to see battle the part-time guys on the grandest stage of them all. Other people think he should've been cut from WWE and should be rotting away in TNA or the independent scene. The two biggest complaints I see on here is "his boring promos" and that he can't be a face, he's a "one-trick pony".

I personally think that Randy Orton is one of the most successful stars ever, and if Creative had not completely stalled his career in 2011, this debate wouldn't even exist. I will admit there are very few people that were given the opportunities that Orton got early in his career (headlining with Foley, working with HBK, joining Evolution, becoming the youngest WHC ever all in his first 3 years) but unlike people who don't deserve their pushes, Orton didn't fade when his push stopped. Look at Miz, the most undeserving WM main eventer in history (don't worry Lawrence Taylor you're second) becoming irrelevant after losing the belt and now having no place on the card.

Swagger got two major pushes to the moon (WHC in 2010 and now this garbage in 2013) and I don't think has ever gotten a big reaction in his career yet. Del Rio was given every accolade a man could be given in 2011 (RR win, MitB win, "ending" Edge's career, etc.) and yet is only starting to garner reactions now as a decent face in 2013. Orton got loud pops throughout his face turn in 2004 and got massive heat during his feud with Foley earlier in that year. He always delivered, he always managed to stay relevant, whether against legends in 2005 like Undertaker and Hogan or against top stars of the day in 2006 like Kurt Angle and Rey Mysterio. By his career in 2003-2006 alone you could tell that this guy had the "it" factor, the look, and the great gimmick that was star-worthy.

2007-2010 saw him grow up, become a dad, and dominate RAW despite a collarbone injury. I'd go into great detail about how he improved each year but I'm sure you're tired of reading. I'll say that Orton's reign in 2007 (ended at Backlash '08) was my favorite of the last 5 years until Punk dominated for 434 days. He came back in 2008 better than ever in every single aspect: he slimmed down yet improved his look, got even better in the ring and refined his move-set, developed a comfort cutting sadistic promos both live and pre-taped, and re-defined his gimmick beyond Legend Killer.

In 2010, we saw him achieve what was mostly a rarity in wrestling that only greats accomplish as a top heel: being turned faced by the fans. Unfortunately this great height only led to his demise, because Creative sucks and didn't know what to do with him. Please watch clips, he consistently out-popped Cena for months, but instead of keeping him as the same badass that the crowd was able to turn in the first place (like they did with Austin in 97, Rock in 99, and Triple H in 00), they made him smile and completely lose his ruthless edge, which completely stalled his momentum in late 2010. Despite this he was still able to be a decent champion, and continued to be a top face in 2011 (people called him the #2 guy in the biz in a thread here on WZ created in August of that year) until completely dropping him off the face of the Earth. All in all, I'd say Orton is a top guy and probably the most successful of the decade (2000-2010) behind John Cena, Triple H, Edge, and Chris Jericho

Orton has fought the very best in this business, from Hulk Hogan to Shawn Michaels, from The Undertaker to The Rock. He is the youngest ever World Heavyweight Champion, the 2009 Royal Rumble Winner, and a WrestleMania main-eventer. Is that enough for you to call him an all-time great, amongst the ranks of Edge, HBK, or Cena?

On an earlier thread I had you guys define A+, A, and A- wrestlers, and a lot of you included Orton in that definition. Where does he stand?

 

[King_of_Swing1520]

im a huge orton fan but right now i wouldn't put him as one of the all time greats. he's done alot in his career and hes done it all pretty well. but theres never been that defining moment that made him a must see guy. something that elevated him so high that he couldnt fall back down the card. Edge and Cena were/are always in the main events and stayed in the main events. Ortons been there but he never stays there. something happens and hes pushed down the card. its like with legacy. it was good but never great. randys matches are always some of the best but they never stand out as a show stealer.

is orton good? yes hes dam good. but one of the greats? i dont know yet. if he had maintained his level on the card (basically pre 2010 level) he might be. but as of the past 3 yrs or so hes done nothing worth mentioning. if he can get back to that 07-10 stage then yes he could become one of the all time greats. but right now id have to say no.

 

[chibet]

I took an extended break from wrestling around 2000, got brought back in by the video games, always loved them and never stopped. In 2006-07, I had to see what this guy " the boogeyman" was like live. So i started watching again, fell in love with Mysterio and started to really understand wrestling on a "smart mark" level. I absolutely fell in love with the Orton / Cena feud that was going on at the time, Randy was absolutely THE GUY back then as THE top heel. The series of matches he and cena had at those years ppv's alone, solidified orton as a permanent main eventer. I mean the I quit match....iron man match....etc!

To me he was still great during the Legacy period but it was the beginning of his downfall. I hated watching cody and ted every time i got my " orton time" on raw. Much like how i now absolutely DESPISE Big E Langston and how he is being attatched to ziggler just to try and get some of the shine.

Fast forward to orton returning from injury to the smackdown brand and face turn title run. Since then he's been blah, you can see his frustration with the reactions he's been getting on tv. I firmly believe he still has IT if given the right stuff creatively.

 

[PunisherLh]

Randy Orton has been given all of these chances as you have described, but has still failed to make a real character out of himself.

I'll say this before I go on a small rant - Orton as a Heel was interesting. Orton as a Face is TERRIBLE.

Firstly, Randy Orton is awful as a face. You might say that the crowd pops for him, but that means nothing. Randy Orton doesn't keep people watching the TV Show, the Ratings show that. When Orton won the WHC in 2011, the Ratings for Smackdown went on a downward spiral until Mark Henry took the Title from him.

Randy Orton still, after ALL this time, cannot cut an interesting Promo. "My Name is Randy Orton". That's all he has to tell us? He is robotic and you can tell he is reading word for word from a script. He has ZERO personality.

As a "Main Event" Heel, he did pretty well for himself. But Orton has had the worst 3 years of his career so far. Maybe his drug-bust last year didn't help either. I'm not a Randy Orton hater, I appreciate his in-ring abilities and the fact that he draws a reaction from the crowd, but I just don't think he belongs in the same league as the men you mentioned. They all had a character that could talk on the microphone for hours. Randy Orton does not.

Until Randy Orton goes back to his comfort zone (being a heel), he will continue to sink into midcard obscurity.

 

[Kidpolean]

Well he is definintely going to the Hall Of Fame. I look at him as like a Jericho, Edge, Punk type of guy. Not really an all time great but a great talent that had an amazing career. Just a notch below the all time greats.

 

[SacredMesa]

Orton was one of the greats, until he went face Viper. Being a cold cruel and calculated individual doesn't work as a face, and frankly it's killed any momentum he had after his fued with Triple H when his character was some what unique, IE guy that did horrible things but also showed signs of remorse for it as if he slipped into another frame of mind. It worked as a heel but doesn't as a face and it's made him stale and boring. He needs to be massively freshed up because right now he's not even close to legend status.

 

[fenderjapan]

All time great heel. He had a tremendous peak and though he isn't at the absolute top of the card anymore he does what a great top-draw does after their peak...continues to draw. He puts asses in the seats. He's a World Champ caliber wrestler who can be stuck into any main event storyline in a pinch and make it work.

 

[mrfantastic111]

Don't think of Orton from 2011-now, just think of Orton from 2003-10 when he was in his 'golden years'. Think of Orton the same way you would think of DX - if we only took their most recent run into consideration than nobody would consider them one of the greatest factions ever.

Whether you like him today or not, Orton has had an amazingly storied career. Evolution's apprentice of the game, the Legend Killer, the Viper.

He's had some amazing moments - who didn't mark the f*** out when he punted the s*** out of Vince's head?? His upset victory over Chri- *Stevie Richards* for the World Title? Before people were watching RAW to see Punk, they were excited for the prime days of the Age of Orton. He made being an unstable phycho-kid seem cool.

Today the glory days seem to be over, but he still puts on great matches. His rivalry with Christian on Smackdown a few years ago may have gotten stale after 3-4 PPVs, but every match that they had together was, dare I say it - a showstealer.

People make unfair comparisons between new and old. They think that it is impossible to create a legend in this day and age because either because wrestling isn't as popular anymore, or because the stars of today supposedly don't hold a candle to the memories of the legendary wrestlers that we all watched as a kid. Every era has it's stars who have carried the banner. If Cena doesn't stand up to your childhood memories of Hogan, it doesn't mean that Cena is any less of a legend. If Punk doesn't live up to your memories of Austin than it mean that Punk is any less of a future hall of famer. People tend to make unreasonable expectations of today's icons. Not to say that we shouldn't hold guys like Savage and Hart in such high regard, I think that we over-criticise today's characters.

I mean, what else does Randy have to do to be considered an icon? Have an original persona? Captivate millions of fans worldwide? Set trends for future wrestlers for generations?

Been there, done that.

 

[Kliq69]

Neither... An all time great has to have excelled in at least one area that completely overshadows their peers.

Hogan was his drawing ability, Flair had his drawing ability, work rate, and mic skills, HBK was an excellent worker, so was Hart and Benoit. The Rock was excellent on the mic and could draw, Stone Cold was Flair like although his ring work suffered after his neck injury. Cena (like him or hate him, he's reached the point of "all-time great") draws.

Orton to me is much like a Harley Race. A guy who was/is credible enough to hold a top belt, but not quite to the point that he could be "the man" for any extended period of time. It's not meant as an insult, it's just they never refined any one area to the point that it was "all-time" level.

Orton had so much promise, so fluid in the ring, not the best promo guy but could cut a decent promo from time to time, and seemed to understand ring psychology better than most of his generation. Then it was like he hit a ceiling and his progression just stopped. He became lazy in the ring, stayed relevant solely based on name value, and most importantly (at least in my opinion) twice pissed on the company that created him by getting hit with wellness violations. It's like once he realized that Cena was going to be the absolute top star of the era he decided to stop caring. It's inexcusable.

Randy Savage knew he wasn't going to out draw Hogan, he was always content being #2 as it still meant plenty of money, some title runs, and a good career. Foley knew Rock and Austin were the #1 and #2 guys of their era (the order can be debated another time) and didn't allow that stop him from striving to achieve everything he could. Undertaker might be the best example, he has never been #1 at any point in his career. He spent most of the last decade of his career on the B show and spent most of his first decade being a sideshow wrestling various oddities. He never allowed his position on the card to limit how hard he tried to better himself nor did it give him an excuse to piss all over the company by getting suspended.

Orton, to me, simply is the biggest waste of talent ever seen in the business. He had the lineage, the god given skill, and the grooming to become one of the best the business had ever seen. He spent nearly two years being tutored personally by Ric Flair, just imagine what HBK or Jericho would have been had they had Flair tutoring them for 2 years in their early-mid twenties. He had the keys to the kingdom and just because he couldn't be "The Man" he decided to not give a damn.

Oh and the whole "Orton doesn't work as a face" or "Orton wants to be a heel" arguments are meaningless to me. The actual all time greats could work heel or face, wrestled whatever portion of the card as needed, and still kept trying to become better. They didn't rest on laurels, they didn't coast. Not talking about the greats in their older years as it is to be expected that one might have lost a step due to age, I'm talking about the greats in/near their prime. Orton is still young and is younger now than most of the "greats" when they finally became headliners. He's 33 years old and should have another decade plus of top level work ahead of him at this point but as it sits He's just a few years away (or one bad piss test away) from hanging it up for good (or going to the minor leagues).

Think about a guy like Edge... Started low on the card, built a following through several years of tagging, then became a mid-card talent. Finally after 7 years in the company, Edge was a main event star. He kept improving and kept improving until the very end and the only reason he gave it up was because of injuries. Orton has been lucky, has suffered mostly minor injuries (from a wrestling standpoint) and to think a guy like Edge, who loved the business his entire life and scratched and clawed his way up the card, had to give up what he loved while another guy who had everything given to him and pissed it away just makes me sick.

 

[Nate DaMac]

Orton is great. He isn't an all time great, but he's a modern great. One of the best of the past 10-15 years. He's really just been a victim of unfortunate timing and doing dumb shit. And CM Punk becoming a bigger deal than him didn't help either.

 

[Mustang Sally]

He's a good performer, although I wouldn't call him an all-time great. Surely, he's been the recipient of every benefit the WWE machine has to offer; he was weaned on programs with some of the greats: Triple H, Foley, Flair, Cena.....and just about anyone else you can think of. They've featured him as a heel and face, they've given him major storylines to run with.....and most notably, they've held his exalted spot for him while he let them down, misbehaving like a spoiled child. I mean, tearing up hotel rooms? C'mon, leave that for drugged-up rock stars, Randy.

I'll say this; while many old-time fans feel that blood thins from generation to generation, with the sons/daughters of famous wrestlers paling in comparison to their Dads, Randy's path has been the polar opposite: Randy is twice the wrestler his father ever was and, from what I've read and been told, Randy is also far superior to his grandfather as a performer.

In other words, a lot of what Randy has comes from himself, and no one else. Still, without the backing of WWE management, he never would have achieved his position of prominence in the industry.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Randy Orton: problem drinker or African-American habberdasher?

Still, without the backing of WWE management, he never would have achieved his position of prominence in the industry.

This can be said of anyone, can't it?

 

[Kliq69]

This can be said of anyone, can't it?

Ric Flair says "hello"... He was a huge star before he ever worked a single match for Vince... Hogan worked for WWWF, then became a bigger star in AWA and through the Rocky movie... Not really a creation of Vince's as much as he bought a commodity and slightly improved its return.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Well, anyone who's anyone in wrestling can be said to be so because of the backing of their particular company's management - I thought that was implied. In Randy Orton's case, WWE.

 

[Judah's Lion]

Kliq and Sally sum up what i was going to say.

Orton isn't terrible. he has plenty of talent. sadly, his attitude sucks and it seems that he doesn't deserve the many chances he's been given.

when i think of "Icons", i think of guys like Hogan, Flair, HBK, Cena, Austin, Rock and maybe a few others.

"Legends" are just a step below that. guys that were great but never the greatest. Triple H, Kane, Edge, Big Show, Jericho, etc.

neither of these lists is exhaustive, but hopefully you get the idea. still, when i think of Orton, i don't rank him with Edge and Angle and Jericho. i wouldn't even rank him with Christian. i'd put Orton on a level below them.

Orton has accomplished everything the OP said. he's evolved from one gimmick to another, alternated from face to heel to face to heel and now back to face. he's won World Titles, main evented Mania and worked with countless numbers of some of the greatest professional wrestlers of all time.

i still wouldn't consider him one of the all time greats. not by a long shot. he's not a one trick pony though either. he's somewhere in between. but overall, i just get frustrated thinking about him cuz he's got all the tools necessary and all the opportunities available to be more than he is.

Orton is not a victim of circumstance or Creative sucking. he's a victim of a bad attitude. and it shows.

 

[Mitch Henessey]

Neither.

He's not a one-trick pony by any means, but he's not all-time great either. Randy Orton is a great in-ring performer, but he hasn't reached legendary status yet.

It's been pointed already, but Orton fucked himself over more often than not. It's known he's somewhat of a head case in real life, and he's a real dick backstage. On top of all that, Orton is too injury prone, and I can't remember the last time he made it through a full calendar year without suffering a major injury.

Of course, Orton still has plenty of time left to cement his status as one of the all-time greats. But as of right now, you can't put him on the same level as guys like Hogan or Austin.

 

[Olly]

I am completely and utterly emotionally uninvested in Randy Orton. I couldn't care less about anything he says or anything he does. Some people say he's bored of his face persona (aren't we all!) and really wants to turn heel and be the viper of yore. Well I'm sorry, but if you cannot be arsed to put the effort in to work with the angle you're given, if you cannot even be bothered to connect with the fans, hell, if you cannot even be bothered to attempt to look like you're not *bored by your own promos*, then frankly you should go to hell. If you don't care, why should anyone else? Why should creative turn you heel if you can't be bothered to sell your face persona in the first place? It amazes me the pop he gets from mark crowds, what has he ever done to deserve it? Cena is on a level above and will completely deserve his heel turn (which will probably come when he's nearer the age Hogan was). And I'm no Cena mark.

 

[jrush1978]

I put him a little in between. He's not an ATG in my opinion but he's still a relatively young guy so its not impossible. He's a step down in my opinion from someone like John Cena or CM Punk, but also in my opinion he's a step up from guys like Sheamus, Big Show, Mark Henry, Dolph Ziggler, Del Rio etc. Im one of the few who always wants to cheer him when he's a heel but he does bore me a little when he's a face so there in lies the issue. From what ive read the guy likes being a heel more so on top of a heel being easier to play he may flat out put more work into his heel character as he enjoys his job more when he's portraying one.

 

[JohnOldSnake4]

Potential all-time great who has been crappily booked for most of his career since leaving Evolution and has compounded this himself with his shitty behaviour. The Age of Orton and Legacy era was pure gold. Everything else outwith Evolution (which he was but a small piece of) has sucked.

 

[Captain Saladin]

At first I thought I would vote for "all-time great" because he really should be. From where he started, Orton should be swapping in and out with Cena as being the most important figure in WWE. He's certainly not a one trick pony and the best example I could give is in 2011, when most would agree that he didn't have his best year as a character, he certainly had a great year in the ring. He had a great program with Christian and the only thing stopping that from being feud of the year was the rise of CM Punk.

I also think of what it means to be an "all-time great" and I'm not quite sure that Orton qualifies (yet?). I'll vote for neither, but with a touch of optimism in that I really do like Orton, but he's just below an all-time great for me.

 

[mrfantastic111]

@Kliq69

Out of those attributes you mentioned, I'd say Orton has/had two. Orton WAS a great draw. Remember when he defeated the rest of Legacy at Wrestlemania and there was a period of time when he was kind of an anti-hero character? Crowds were going NUTS for Orton at the time, he was closing RAW regularly and would end the show with a standing ovation. Let's be honest here, more IWC were crazy about him 4 years ago the same way that they're crazy about Punk at the moment, but more importantly - the rest of the non-IWC fans were just as crazy about him too. Sure he wasn't as popular as Cena, but for alot of fans he was the man.

My second point is his working ability in the ring. Sure he's no Kurt Angle, but he was probably the Savage to Cena's Hogan. Plus he is as smooth as anything; Triple H once said something along the lines of "Randy is like Shawn, he makes things look effortless".

I agree with what Nate commented above, if anything Randy is definitely a modern great. In ten years time when all the 10 year old kids watching today grow up, they'll regard guys like Randy the same way that I regard guys like SCSA.

 

[Tech N9ne]

He's not the greatest of all time. But I definitely think he is an all time great. Obviously people can/will argue if he is better as a Heel or Face, or whatever. But I think his accolades speak for themselves. He has done A LOT in his "decade" in WWE. NUMEROUS WWE and World Title reigns, as well as solid runs with other titles. BIG Main Events and some pretty big moments.

His attributes or performances might not stack up against who you consider YOUR all time favorite or who you consider to be the greatest ever. Whether it be comparing him on the mic to The Rock, or his in ring ability to HBK or his pops to Austin, etc... He might NEVER belong being mentioned in a sentence with any of them. But, for HIS time, for HIS era, he has done a lot. He might not stack up compared to Cena, or even Punk at this point, but his track record and accomplishments are worth something.

Like I said, he might not be the GREATEST ALL TIME, but I think he at least deserves to be called an All Time Great.

 

[ThePrawnCurry]

Randy is upper mid card at best

capable of stellar matches with the top stars but unable to lift his game against other mid carders

His Viper run <<< The Legend Killer run, but then he was in there with old skool talents.

 

[jacdnwarrior]

Orton is among the greatest performers - from this current roster. An all time great, no. I mean he can give you good if not great matches, but there have been better in the ring. He has so many limits to what he can do. He's a better heel than a face, he isn't really good on the mike, or so entertaining on the mike that you want to hear him. He was given SD to carry and he failed miserably. Mark Henry as champion actually got higher numbers during his tenure than he did. And Henry isn't that good in the ring.
A great performer is a difference maker. He's better than Cena and Rock in the ring, but he isn't as entertaining, and could never bring in as much money or ratings in a thousand years. He's above average talent. He's had a great career but he isn't on the all time greatest list.

 

[Vault08]

He's an all time great caught in limbo, which sucks. I don't blame WWE for not pushing him though, he's got 2 violations.