I love Randy Orton. His in-ring ? Incredible but the most important about him is the charisma. The WWE give him nothing to do but yet, he is still one of the most popular guys, people love him and that show how great he is. Also, he has a great booking, he is strong but he also know when he has to loses to give a momentum to a other worker ( Mark Henry ).
Good not great - Is Randy Orton finally exposed?
- Thread starter shooter_mcgavin
- Start date
Look at the 3 names you just mentioned. Cena, Batista, and Orton. Cena has already reached the heights of his career and his star is fading if anything. Batista was in the same circumstance when he was still with the WWE and add his age into the mix which gives you a pretty good indication of why hes not around anymore. Why dont we use the same standard for Orton. Just like Cena was on top of his game until about two years ago, Orton has also started to fall off. You can only be at the top of the business for so long before the public loses interest in you. Hell the only reason Cena has been able to maintain his relevance is because WWE's income depends on his so he's constantly shoved down our throats. Orton on the other hand is the WWE's #2 guy, so WWE doesnt need to count on him. This means that when he's having some downtime, like he is right now, WWE wont rush to save him. Orton was never meant to be the future of the business, that was Cena. And Cena wasnt meant to be the face of the WWE, he was a desperation experiment after Brock left.
So to paraphrase, since he's been with the WWE nonstop for so long its only natural that he experiences some downtime. Plus, while he is great and has accomplished much in his own right, he was never meant to be on the same level as Cena. He's the #2 guy and will continue to be treated as such by the company.
So to paraphrase, since he's been with the WWE nonstop for so long its only natural that he experiences some downtime. Plus, while he is great and has accomplished much in his own right, he was never meant to be on the same level as Cena. He's the #2 guy and will continue to be treated as such by the company.
Papa Pillman
I've got more Ho's than Jim Duggan
The character and the way Randy leans on it are to blame. Randy used to do some decent promo work. Legend Killer Randy could be counted on to deliver promos that helped build his matches. He has always had great ring-psychology, and used to put on mostly quality outings because of it. Now the Viper character has killed him. Everything about him has become bland and robotic. Being "the viper" gives him an excuse to be more methodical in the ring, which was okay at first due to his high level psychology. As time has gone on Orton seems to have started to feel that the slow deliberate nature of his work is equivilent to psychology in and of itself(which it is not). His mic work is increasingly nothing more than monotone pointlessness that can barely progress a story. He has fully removed emotion/inflection from his speach/actions.
Orton is in shut down mode with this face run and is determined to keep it on auto-pilot until he gets the heel turn he wants. Basically he is pouting on camera to a degree the same way he allegedly pouts backstage. He is incresingly dull, stale, and his work has become so based on doing the bare minimum that it's borderline lazy.
Orton is in shut down mode with this face run and is determined to keep it on auto-pilot until he gets the heel turn he wants. Basically he is pouting on camera to a degree the same way he allegedly pouts backstage. He is incresingly dull, stale, and his work has become so based on doing the bare minimum that it's borderline lazy.
Infinity
Starving (Martial) Artist
I don't know how you can simply gloss over the fact that he had a good feud with Mark Henry. That feud is what finally legitimized Mark Henry as a credible main eventer after 10 years in the WWE. He got good matches out of one of the most notoriously difficult people work with in the ring in Mark Henry. And if you didn't think that he had good feuds with him, Christian, and Wade Barrett... then I really don't know what you're looking for in a feud. Truth is, Orton being on Smackdown hurts him more than anything else, and he's still making it work.
He's so over that he doesn't need the be the World Champion. People like Del Rio, Henry, and even Sheamus begin losing credibility without the belt... Orton is at the point where he doesn't really need it. In the mean time, he put over Christian and made him a credible champion, put over Mark Henry and made him a credible threat to the title, and he would have done the same exact thing for Barrett, and was actually on pace to doing so, had Barrett not suffered that dislocated elbow last year. His feud with Wade Barrett last year was awesome, and it was cementing Wade as a threat again... Barrett was primed for a good WrestleMania feud/match but the injury threw his push off course.
Orton's feud with Kane was mediocre at best, I'll give you that... but for what felt like a throwaway feud the WWE put together between two veterans, the match they put on at WrestleMania was actually really quite good. Orton has been putting people over left and right and in my opinion, he hasn't last credibility over it in the least. I expect a couple of great Orton/Swagger matches between now and WrestleMania to further legitimize Swagger... which already started last night at the Chamber when Orton put him over... already.
I didn't say anyone sucked, I said that's its hard to be a character that is cold and vicious to get over as a face. You bring up two very unique wrestlers and you can't expect everyone to be able to pull off the same feat. Undertaker's overload of imagery speaks for itself but I do think you can draw similarities fro Jake Roberts. The biggest difference is that Jake the Snake is one of the best talkers in the history of wrestling, Orton isn't even close.
I think most everyone here noted how Orton's promos USED to be interesting and how he USED to be vicious. The only difference between Orton 2010 and 2013 is his heel/face alliance so please tell me how i'm missing the point? He was well liked coming up as the legend killer and as a heel after that but with the face turn the character was watered down. Go watch a match and listen to all the snake metaphors the commentators use and then realize that's all that is left is that imagery.
Today's Orton is boring and uninteresting because there isn't anything interesting about him anymore. His character can't evolve because his character has ceased to exist.
I'm not criticizing his in-ring performance at all(on PPV at least), but thinking back to his big feuds of the last year and a half it wasn't Orton that kept me interested.
I might be missing what you're trying to say here but if you're implying that Orton is unwilling to let anyone else get noticed you are wrong. Swagger last night, Ziggler at Survivor Series, and Barrett a year ago prove that.
I guess to make my point blunt and clear: I think Randy Orton is boring. I look foreword to his PPV matches and he makes whoever he's wrestling look relevant. What I don't like is that his character is just uninteresting. I don't know if it's necessarily his or WWE's fault or both but in my opinion he would have better luck as a heel.
#1SamoaJoe
#1SamoaJoe
Orton has had his detractors, but he still truly is gifted in the ring. He has the mic ability and the charisma to be relevant again. At only 33 years of age, he's younger than Cena and several of the other more veteran talents. He's had his hiccups with out of ring incidents that I believe have pushed him down. The other aspect is being asked to be the number one face on Smack down has held him down from what he is. A heel...Some wrestlers or talents just don't have what it takes to work on both sides of the card. He does get the pop's, however not enough to justify him staying on that side.
CrucifiedRaven
The Evenflow Effect
I feel like the WWE wants him to be a top face so desperately, but he's just not it. He's a natural heel. Yet every time he gets over as a heel they turn him face and he fizzles. And it seems like every time he does a face turn it ruins his reputation even more.
It's like if they insisted on turning HHH face in 2000. He's such a natural heel, just let it be. Stop forcing something that he's not. If they kept CM Punk as a face (who still was way more over as a face than Orton has ever been, even before Raw 1,000), and kept Orton as a heel they would be a perfectly fine core to build the product around with Cena. Try out guys like Jericho, Miz, Ziggler, Swagger as top heels as well in a supporting role and they'd be fine.
Just seems like they want Orton to be a top face so bad, they're forcing it so bad, but it's just ruining him.
It's like if they insisted on turning HHH face in 2000. He's such a natural heel, just let it be. Stop forcing something that he's not. If they kept CM Punk as a face (who still was way more over as a face than Orton has ever been, even before Raw 1,000), and kept Orton as a heel they would be a perfectly fine core to build the product around with Cena. Try out guys like Jericho, Miz, Ziggler, Swagger as top heels as well in a supporting role and they'd be fine.
Just seems like they want Orton to be a top face so bad, they're forcing it so bad, but it's just ruining him.
nightshifty
Dark Match Winner
Randy Orton is great bottom line. WWE need to cut their losses with him being on SMACKDOWN! and move him back to RAW permanently. Maybe it was just me, but the pop he got in the chamber match right before he RKO'd Jericho was the loudest I heard all night. Even louder than the Rock's.
sportznutt
Dark Match Jobber
I find it hard to believe that whatever is happening against Orton actually means something. He looks vanilla out there, in that it's the same thing all the time.
Although his recent downward spiral is setting up for a nasty heel turn.
Although his recent downward spiral is setting up for a nasty heel turn.
TWJC: The Beginning
Royal Rumble Winner
He has top talent. Everything he does makes sense and has his character stamp on it. Both in the ring and on the mic. He's very over. He gets injured too much, so instead of being used like a top guy, he's used as the is name vet.
Orton's problem at the moment is that there's no direction for him, although he is at a point in his career where he has little to do that he already hasn't done. He's held World Titles multiple times as a heel, and successfully as a face on Smackdown. He has played multiple roles throughout his WWE career but held a thread of consistency between all of them.
Look, I'm not a big guy. I love cruiserweight wrestlers, and I always root for underdogs like Daniel Bryan and Y2J. Orton isn't that, and he wrestles just as good as the smaller guys. Orton's not a high-flyer, but there's a certain intensity in his matches that I love watching. Personally I think Orton is close to Ric Flair's level, and I think Orton has yet to really make his lasting mark on the business.
In the short term, you could do a lot with Orton. Orton could decide that the guys in Shield know what they're talking about and join them. Orton could form a tag team with Ryback, who needs to win gold soon. Orton could jump back on to Raw to wrestle Cena again, by now it would feel fresh. Regardless, Orton is a top level performer who isn't getting a lot of creative direction, but still puts on memorable matches.
Look, I'm not a big guy. I love cruiserweight wrestlers, and I always root for underdogs like Daniel Bryan and Y2J. Orton isn't that, and he wrestles just as good as the smaller guys. Orton's not a high-flyer, but there's a certain intensity in his matches that I love watching. Personally I think Orton is close to Ric Flair's level, and I think Orton has yet to really make his lasting mark on the business.
In the short term, you could do a lot with Orton. Orton could decide that the guys in Shield know what they're talking about and join them. Orton could form a tag team with Ryback, who needs to win gold soon. Orton could jump back on to Raw to wrestle Cena again, by now it would feel fresh. Regardless, Orton is a top level performer who isn't getting a lot of creative direction, but still puts on memorable matches.
Nadeem Ahmad
Pre-Show Stalwart
That is how I've mostly felt about him, and you summed it up pretty accurately. He is kind of like a more recent version of Chris Jericho, in terms of talent, minus the charisma of course.
Those are the reasons why he is so great at putting others over, like Sheamus, Wade Barrett, and possibly Dolph Ziggler down the line, should the WWE choose to go that route, and giving them credibilitiy.
Nadeem Ahmad
Pre-Show Stalwart
He doesn't really lose legitimacy as an elite wrestler by losing to those sorts of wrestlers, as he has been in the main event of a Wrestlemania, outlasted the other superstars in a Royal Rumble, and reigned with the WWE title at least four times. If more wrestlers, using such accomplishments, put over other upcoming talent the way Randy did, the company would find an easier time developing newer people.
I remember that he actually did use the old song Punk was using, before "... Reality", for maybe one episode or two episodes of Smackdown, early on around 2002, when people didn't know him that much, and could not have cared less. Still, that theme was better for him, and for Punk, as it was more lively and energetic, giving both stars some reason for the crowd to cheer them. They both use harder tones now in rocking songs they come out to, and since both have proven themselves, especially in toughness, they should go back to less heavier rock, to seem more marketable, maybe.
I thought the same, about them being expected to dominate in the WWE for decades, but they could do so without the title all the time. It's not like they haven't won it enough.
That's exactly right.
The thing is, he lacks a lot of charisma which many superstars did provide. I wouldn't even say he could get to the level of RVD in charisma, which was not a lot with the microphone, since he was one of those wrestlers who let the "body language" do the talking. If you think it has been a long time since he held the title of the world, you might enjoy it all that much more, if he ever wins it again.
Seems about one or two people in this thread actually get it, and the rest are being led by their noses. This is for the larger portion here- surely it's occurred to some of you that Randy Orton's star started to fall right about at the time when he picked up his second Wellness Policy violation?
He's too big of a star to release and risk having him go to TNA, so you'll never hear about a third WP violation. But he's no longer a prospective 'face of the company', because the last thing the WWE needs to be hearing about is how their big star is connected to some "anti-aging" clinic.
He's too big of a star to release and risk having him go to TNA, so you'll never hear about a third WP violation. But he's no longer a prospective 'face of the company', because the last thing the WWE needs to be hearing about is how their big star is connected to some "anti-aging" clinic.
Although Orton came second in the chamber, I really don't think he would have been second choice winner for the WWE. In fact, I think most guys in the chamber would have ranked higher in likely winners.
He'll get his heel turn, he'll be in some solid feuds, put on some great matches...but I think that's about it. He'll still be important for WWE in terms of putting people over and making others look good. In my opinion he's now become the 'nearly' guy, most viewers will see him as a legit threat being in the final few of the rumble, chamber, MITB, whatever, but WWE's confidence in him is gone.
Saying that, I hope I'm wrong, there's few better in the ring.
He'll get his heel turn, he'll be in some solid feuds, put on some great matches...but I think that's about it. He'll still be important for WWE in terms of putting people over and making others look good. In my opinion he's now become the 'nearly' guy, most viewers will see him as a legit threat being in the final few of the rumble, chamber, MITB, whatever, but WWE's confidence in him is gone.
Saying that, I hope I'm wrong, there's few better in the ring.
Orton's in a bit of a transitionary period right now, but I don't think his career is floundering just quite yet. Orton has always been surrounded by problems -- anger/attitude issues, injuries, wellness policy suspensions -- and I'm sure that his most recent suspension has something to do with why he isn't being pushed as aggressively as he once was. Still, he is a bonafide top level draw for the WWE, and he can hang with anybody they toss his way. Yeah, he might not be in the title picture now, but I don't think he's that far away -- after WrestleMania, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw Orton get a World Heavyweight Championship reign, or even turn heel and maybe jump ship to Raw and get back in the WWE Championship ranks.
WWE knows how good Orton is and they'd be stupid not to capitalize on his ability. Pushing Orton doesn't come without risks, but I can't see him slipping up again. Orton's a legitimate star, those don't just grow on trees. His time will come again.
WWE knows how good Orton is and they'd be stupid not to capitalize on his ability. Pushing Orton doesn't come without risks, but I can't see him slipping up again. Orton's a legitimate star, those don't just grow on trees. His time will come again.
I have to say that I think the injuries he's had lately and the fact that he is a face on Smackdown not Raw have made his character stale and slip down out of the WWE/WHC title pictures.
08/09 during his legacy phase he was on fire with his feuds with Triple H/Mcmahon's, Cena & Batista but since they split Legacy up he hasn't really had a big feud or story line except for Barrett which was unfortunatley cut shot due to Barrett's injury.
WWE need to breathe life into him again by giving him a heel turn and a big feud as he is one of the best in ring competitors on roster.
08/09 during his legacy phase he was on fire with his feuds with Triple H/Mcmahon's, Cena & Batista but since they split Legacy up he hasn't really had a big feud or story line except for Barrett which was unfortunatley cut shot due to Barrett's injury.
WWE need to breathe life into him again by giving him a heel turn and a big feud as he is one of the best in ring competitors on roster.
CrucifiedRaven
The Evenflow Effect
WWE does this a lot with guys, giving them no direction or feud and just let them hang around. Orton has nothing going on right now. Neither does Dolph Ziggler or Wade Barrett or The Miz or Kofi Kingston. They have a lot of upper-midcard/potential main event talent just sitting there with no story, direction or feuds. They need a program to get over. I fear the same thing will happen to Bryan once his Kane feud finally has the payoff.
no matter what. when orton hits the ddt from the ropes and the crowd rises to their feet cheering. then he drops and bangs his arms on the mat. It is simply magic. if its raw, smackdown, or a PPV. I get excited everytime. i have no explanation for it. other than it is one of the moments that makes me realize randy orton will always be one of my favorites.
i expect him to beat mark henry at wrestlemania. mark henry ended Super Orton. orton has been pinned clean plenty of times since. Sheamus took his spot during his injury and violations as the 2nd face, who never gets a clean loss. it's only a matter of time before he gets another push. i think they are saving him for a fued with sheamus. they have had tension for a while. i expect orton vs sheamus for WM30
i expect him to beat mark henry at wrestlemania. mark henry ended Super Orton. orton has been pinned clean plenty of times since. Sheamus took his spot during his injury and violations as the 2nd face, who never gets a clean loss. it's only a matter of time before he gets another push. i think they are saving him for a fued with sheamus. they have had tension for a while. i expect orton vs sheamus for WM30
Randy Orton is one of my favorite wrestlers but I don't think he makes a very good face. His theme alone totally contradicts what a good guy is supposed to be. Just listen to the lyrics and tell me that he sounds like a hero figure. But as a heel, he might be one of the best heels in the game. Ever.
With the amount of comers and goers at the moment, I think it's time to bring back 'The Legend Killer'
Triple H
Chris Jericho
The Rock
Brock Lesnar
The Undertaker
These five are all in and out of the ring... I wouldn't be holding out too much for Orton-Jericho as there '08 feud was nothing to write home about at all.
But the others... for the big PPVs... they would all be suitable draws, you could probably get another 1-2 year run out of The Legend Killer as a heel. Re-hashing, I know isn't great... but I love the idea of an Orton heel turn at Mania building towards a Legend Killer match vs. The Rock at Summerslam... then potentially Brock at Survivor Series... would that be the perfect way to build believably towards Orton breaking the streak at WrestleMania 30? Or at least, if not breaking the streak... having defeated a series of legends in high stakes matches over the last year... coupled with a title run and feuds against the likes of Sheamus, Ryback etc... would make him seem like he could actually do it.
Plus their previous Mania meet was great.
Triple H
Chris Jericho
The Rock
Brock Lesnar
The Undertaker
These five are all in and out of the ring... I wouldn't be holding out too much for Orton-Jericho as there '08 feud was nothing to write home about at all.
But the others... for the big PPVs... they would all be suitable draws, you could probably get another 1-2 year run out of The Legend Killer as a heel. Re-hashing, I know isn't great... but I love the idea of an Orton heel turn at Mania building towards a Legend Killer match vs. The Rock at Summerslam... then potentially Brock at Survivor Series... would that be the perfect way to build believably towards Orton breaking the streak at WrestleMania 30? Or at least, if not breaking the streak... having defeated a series of legends in high stakes matches over the last year... coupled with a title run and feuds against the likes of Sheamus, Ryback etc... would make him seem like he could actually do it.
Plus their previous Mania meet was great.
jacdnwarrior
Championship Contender
Orton is good and has had his share of good if not great matches.
Imo, I find him more hype than anything else. He isn't great on the mike, he isn't as good as a face as he is as a heel. He isn't the most well rounded entertainers they've ever had in the top spot. Cena isn't stellar in the ring all the time, or as consistently as Orton, but he is a great entertainer. Problem is he like Cena, Triple H, Batista, they are (or were) relied on so much to do the heavy lifting, they ran out of ideas to keep it interesting. The roster has some interesting matchups but not good enough to bring in the revenue or if they work with him and screw up or piss him off they'll find themselves back down the roster faster than they got up there. His clout with WWE management makes working with him a nerve racking experience for younger talent.
Add to that Orton's violations make it difficult to really have him at the top of the roster with the belt for fear that media will blast them for not doing enough to deal with drug use, and at a time they are trying to appeal to a child friendly audience ... that baggage isn't a good thing.
He's not going anywhere, and he'll make his money, will a few runs with the title if needed but he won't be as big as he was in the past.
Imo, I find him more hype than anything else. He isn't great on the mike, he isn't as good as a face as he is as a heel. He isn't the most well rounded entertainers they've ever had in the top spot. Cena isn't stellar in the ring all the time, or as consistently as Orton, but he is a great entertainer. Problem is he like Cena, Triple H, Batista, they are (or were) relied on so much to do the heavy lifting, they ran out of ideas to keep it interesting. The roster has some interesting matchups but not good enough to bring in the revenue or if they work with him and screw up or piss him off they'll find themselves back down the roster faster than they got up there. His clout with WWE management makes working with him a nerve racking experience for younger talent.
Add to that Orton's violations make it difficult to really have him at the top of the roster with the belt for fear that media will blast them for not doing enough to deal with drug use, and at a time they are trying to appeal to a child friendly audience ... that baggage isn't a good thing.
He's not going anywhere, and he'll make his money, will a few runs with the title if needed but he won't be as big as he was in the past.
