Did Randy Orton NEED Evolution!?

[CyDeez]

What would have happened in Randy Orton's career if he wouldn't have joined Evolution?

Before joining Evolution he was a Face. Billed a 3rd Generation. Much like The Rock's Rocky Miavia gimmick. Though he was cheered, he was not over with fans at all. He really wasn't receiving much of a push at the time.

He then gets injured, and instead of building up a return for him as a Face. WWE starts airing little vignettes/promos of him in weeks prior to his return. They had Orton acting sort of cocky and speaking of his injury. Saying basically he will be returning soon and what not. That started him with a small push towards his return, also Orton taking position as Heel. He toyed with this storyline of his injured arm for a while and then joined Evolution.

In his run with Evolution, he held The IC Title, in his only reign for 210 days. The longest at the time in almost 10 years. 2nd longest in the last 12 or 13 years.

Evolution was relevant, and dominate in it's existence. It had a guy fully in his prime, as the leader. Triple H. He was considered The Present of the group. Ric Flair was considered the Past. Randy Orton and Batista were The Future of the group.

Orton had numerous high spots while in the group. In late '03 he was a part of Team Bischoff taking on Team Austin at Survivor Series. Orton was the Sole Survivor, giving Team Bischoff the win.

He was billed "The Legend Killer"... During his time using this gimmick, Orton would dispose of every legend that would make a return to WWE or make an appearance in WWE. Even after Evolution, Orton continued to be called by this nickname and continued to take "Legends" out... Names like, Hulk Hogan and Mick Foley are guys Orton was able to get over on.

Orton, along with Flair and Batista were able to defeat The Rock & Sock Connection at Wrestlemania 20.

Orton continued in Evolution in the months following Wrestlemania 20. Triple H lost his World Championship at WM 20 to Chris Benoit in an epic Triple Threat Main Event.

Despite numerous attempts over the next 6 months from Triple H to regain the World Heavyweight Championship. He couldn't get it away from Benoit. It was Randy Orton, however, that brought the Title back to Evolution, by defeating Benoit at Summerslam 04. In the process he became the youngest World Heavyweight Champion EVER!

Though Orton thought he did a good thing, Triple H was jealous, being he was the leader and flagship of Evolution. Orton was then kicked out of the group and turned Face, with The WHC.

Randy Orton held the Title for 4 weeks. 28 days. Triple H took The Title back from him at Unforgiven 04. Orton would continue on as a Face for a little bit longer before turning Heel once again.

Evolution would last a few more months with HHH as champion. Ultimately they fully broke up after Batista won The Royal Rumble in January of 05. He decides after a while to challenge Triple H for the world title and thus Evolution was no more.

It seems the beginning of the end of the group was when Orton won The WHC. It was basically a snowball effect over the next few months.

In the years following Evolution, Triple H, Ric Flair, Batista and Randy Orton all went their separate ways, besides matches and feuds versus each other. Orton continued to use his "Legend Killer" gimmick. He in a way, toiled for a few years. He feuded with Undertaker, Hulk Hogan and many other superstars. He was nearly World Champion a lot of times. He was in The Main Event, even though it wasn't the last match, for The WHC at WM 22. It was a Triple Threat match against Rey Mysterio and Kurt Angle(C). Orton was pinned in the finale of the match by Rey. He even started a Tag Team with Edge named Rated RKO. They captured the Tag Team Titles and feuded with the reformed Degeneration X (HHH and HBK).

Randy Orton was handed his first WWE Championship, by Vince McMahon, on October 7th, 2007 at No Mercy. He was feuding with John Cena who was WWE Champ at the time, for his title. Cena was injured and Vince handed Orton the WWE Championship. Triple H wins the title right after this, and defends it against Umaga shortly there after. In the culmination of this same night, Randy Orton and Triple H faced off in a Last Man Standing Match for The WWE Championship. Orton wins and becomes the first man EVER to win The WWE Title in one night.

It was more than 3 years after his first World Championship reign that he won The WWE Championship. So in a sense, after he won the WHC in Evolution, and was kicked out of the group, it took about 3 years for him to return, not necessarily to The Main Event, but to The World Title Level.

I have a few different questions here. What to answer is basically based on your opinion on Orton's connection to Evolution....

Would Orton be where he is now if he was never in Evolution?

Did he need Evolution, or was he destined for greatness, even without it?

Did he make Evolution relevant by being The Future of group, or would it have basically been just another thrown together group of "old guys"?

Without joining Evolution, would he have even been relevant during those years, or would his push have come much later?

Or would he ever have gotten any push, without his connection to Evolution?

 

[Ferbian]

Would Orton be where he is now if he was never in Evolution?

Probably yeah. I mean considering the fact that Randy is over currently through a gimmick that had zero to do with the character he really played during the Evolution storyline. He's over as the viper, not the legend killer. He has a different persona about him that the crowd loves, a more sadistic kind of persona, as opposed to Randy's legend killer gimmick.

Did he need Evolution, or was he destined for greatness, even without it?

He didn't need Evolution I'm sure. He would most likely have managed without Evolution, but simply through a heel turn rather than the face character he displayed. I'm sure that Evolution did help him massively though.

So really, he would've done fine without Evolution, but he sure as hell benefited from it.

Did he make Evolution relevant by being The Future of group, or would it have basically been just another thrown together group of "old guys"?

Absolutely not. Batista was just as much a future of the group, as well as John Cena or anybody else available at that time with a bright future could've been in the faction. So really Evolution would've been just fine without Randy as well.

He added something to Evolution, but it's not something that couldn't have been replaced with something else to make it relevant as well, if anything.

Without joining Evolution, would he have even been relevant during those years, or would his push have come much later?

Hard to say, considering Randy would most definitely have gotten some kind of push anyway, I'm sure of it. However I'm not sure how soon, or how the push would've been handled, considering he probably gained the world title so soon due to Evolution.

Or would he ever have gotten any push, without his connection to Evolution?

Of course he would. Randy was, and still is a huge part of the future of WWE, as well as wrestling in general. Randy is over as fuck, and it was something I'm sure was visible even back then, that Randy was gonna be huge some day. If he didn't show the potential back then, Triple H and Flair would've never gotten their hands on him.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

Considering how much he struggled to get over early on without them, I'd say so, yeah.

Orton had the talent, but he had no projection – he had no direction. He was just another cookie cutter wrestler in tribal-designed tights with the lineage of his family name to keep him afloat before the Evolution rub, and in terms of vaulting his career, that was the single most important point of it if you ask me. Him winning the title and being betrayed is a legendary moment in [modern] wrestling history, and it and the run he had with Evolution prior did wonders for his otherwise bland persona.

That eventually lead to the Legend Killer, which gave way to the Viper. Without Evolution, Randy isn't where he is today – no way, no how.

 

[Chardee Macdennis]

I feel like Orton would have risen to the top eventually, but certainly not as quickly. Orton didn't neccassarily make Evolution "relevant", but he did add to the group. Evolution in and of itself was one of the best stables known to wrestling. It was formatted quite perfectly. The living Legend in Ric Flair, the Leader in HHH, the enforcer in Batista, and the up and comer in Randy Orton. Teaming with the likes of Trips and Flair added instant credibility to Orton. His push came much sooner than it would have otherwise, however, he would have recieved one sooner or later.


Orton's natural ability would have certainly shown through at some pt and I'm confident that he would have taken advantage of ANY oppurtunity he was given. Had he not been included in Evolution, but still teamed with Edge, I think that would have undoubtedly led to a push. That tag team, in my estimation, was something special and it would have been hard for the powers that be to leave Orton out of future main events after that. All in all, I'd say that Orton's career was certainly helped by being in Evolution (as was Batista's), but he would have gotten over sooner or later. Orton is one of those guys, that given the smallest crack, he was bound to shine through.

 

[ToWhomItConcerns.]

yeah i do think he needed Evolution.

if i'm not mistaken they tried to push him early on and it went nowhere. after he joined Evolution thats when things started happening for him.

with that said had they given him the "Legend Killer" gimmick before joining Evolution he wouldn't have needed them.

 

[sislater69]

Who can honestly say what would or wouldn't have been, but imo yes he did. I remember back to his early days, seeing those awful vignettes asking people to send their messages to "Get Well Randy" and all I could think at the time was "Urgh, I give him 3 months".

Here is a guy who has become one of the top names in pro wrestling, and I believe it is because of those earlier days with HHH Flair and Batista. Could he have been a star without them? Maybe, who knows, it was always clear he has the talent to make it. But being aligned with that caliber of talent certainly made him more relevant an awful lot quicker than he would have without them.

 

[Thephenominal1]

Orton needed Evolution plain and simple. He didn't have the greatest mic skills or charisma or anything else that you need to be in the business. There was nobody better thatn Flair and HHH to start off your career with.

 

[kcordloh]

In my opinion yes he needed Evolution. Had he returned as a heel and went solo, on RAW, he would have had to play second fiddle to anything Evolution did because remember had he not been in Evolution someone else would have been trying to play the role he did.

Evolution launched him, and the Legend Killer gimmick definitely was just a different version of the Viper. Orton is very good at what he does, and maybe he would have made it. But who is to say had HHH and Ric not picked him, he wouldn't have been canned for all the stunts he pulled? Remember when there was talk in 05/06 of him getting canned and if he could do well in TNA?

 

[GameOver]

It certainly didn't hurt for him to be grouped with Ric Flair and Triple H

Gave him a huge push, he got training from 2 greats, gave him air time, a world title
OK the world title was probably just to swap it from Benoit to Triple H without the two of them having a rematch but nonetheless the whole scenario propelled Orton to the main event

B4 Evolution he was just another wrestlers son and heading towards The Rocks first run as the failed face that noone gave a shit about, in Orton's case though he was a tweener.

 

[mral82]

Yes he needed Evolution as Evolution didn't need Randy as he would been future endevored already w/o Trips and Flair mentoring him as he was injury prone then and careless and reckless in the biz the only move that I like then of his was his dropkick other than that he was boring before Helmsley and Flair decided to do Evolution and picked Randy and Dave as members, and now the rest is history. So yes Randy needed Evolution or have no job or be jobbed out.

 

[red ass skull muhfukkah]

Orton needed Evolution. I remember when he first came, I liked him ad his matches but forgot about him quickly, until Evolution came.

Like most have said before, eventually he would have gotten where he is without Evolution. The Legend Killer and his current Viper gimmick would have worked regardless. But Evolution quickly propelled him into the spotlight, the main event, and the WHC. And I think his feud with HHH and Evolution after he won the title did more for him than him actually winning the title. Fans quickly got behind him because everyone hated HHH at the time. Which made his heel turn all the more interesting. Here was someone who had the fans behind him because he stood up to the big bad HHH. And then a few months later he was spitting in the face of Harley Race and Mick Foley. As a fan, I thought what happened to this kid that we all got behind? How did he turn into such an asshole?

For me at least he needed Evolution. The Legend Killer probably would have came without them, but you would just see him as a some snot nosed spoiled brat trying to dishonor legends. But because of Evolution he was loved by the fans and his turn felt like a stab in the back as well as the spoiled kid who hates legends.

 

[Greg4WWE]

Not sure what it is about Orton nowdays.. i know he is a face lean.. but he never gets beat down like a typical face does... he does the beat down.. didnt say it was a bad thing... but i guess i don't understand it? Is he supposed to be unhurtable?

 

[LigerBomb]

Way too much speculation and hypotheticals in your questions—I'm no alternate reality fortune teller—so I'm only going to address the main point of Orton "needing" Evolution. He did.
Before Evolution Orton was the master of the OVW drop kick and not much else. He was greener than grass and it showed. Yes, he was the possessor of raw talent (pun?), but that will only get you so far. Both in and out of Kayfabe Evolution helped his career.
Behind the scenes he got to hang out and learn at the feet of HHH and Flair. Even more important he got their seal of approval which in this business is perhap just as important as actual talent and ability if not perhaps even more so (it didn't hurt that he had BIG names to vouch for him when he acted out like a brat and had those much publicized melt-downs either). If you want to be successful at something one of the quickest ways to do that is to get counseling and be mentored by those who have already done what you would like to do. You "stand on the shoulders of giants" to elevate yourself that much higher that much faster.
Similarly, on screen Orton's character got the rub from all the big names which lent him instant credibility with the audience. On his own that may not of happened, at least not with the same speed. Yes, Orton (probably) could have done it eventually the "long and hard way" but why? It's just stupid to work harder when you could work smarter. As an aside –work smart and hard and you'll be practically untouchable (Cena).

 

[I_Am_Electro_Boy]

Yes he did need Eolution, I think WWE did try to push him before but it failed. I wouldn't go as far to say Evolution needed him but he was important to Evolution. HHH and Flair were the perfect duo to help push Randy. Another good question would be did Batista need Evolution.

 

[Fisheatppl]

I think yes and no. Orton WOULD have made it w/out Evolution. I don't think he would have been "The Legend Killer" ever, and possibly not the Viper, which are both great gimmicks. His push happened early because of Evolution, and it happened in greatness. But, he did have some middle ground to tread even AFTER Evolution. Remember the god-awful (IMO) Orton has a match, gets hit, and dazes out, glazed eyes? Ugh even remembering it makes me want to punch my mother in the face. I think one of his biggest pushes, and probably the most important, was his hardcore match with Mick Foley. That match, more than any other, let you know Randy Orton was for real. He was all in and he was not going anywhere for anything. Yes he was already the Legend Killer at that point, but I think that vaulted him to forever ME status from that point on. So basically, Evolution helped him, but so did other things.
p.s. I don't know why people are hating on this, but i LOOOVED the "just to let you know, my shoulder is at 98%" vignettes. Loved them so much, that recently when his shoulder was "injured" (it may have been real or not but didn't last, within the last 2 months), I was PRAYING for a shoulder update. That was the first time he was on my radar, was the updates.

Oh and I ABSOLUTELY think Batista needed Evolution. Without it he probably would have been just another big, directionless big guy. In most people's eyes i knew he was already a "Brock Lesnar wannabe". That is until he won the Royal Rumble and got some direction of his own. As much as I liked Batista (and I did) I always felt he was a little one dimensional in his persona (and at times his wrestling, but that got better with time).

 

[vampireblade]

yes he needed evolution he got the chance to hone his skills with the likes of HHH and Flair he needed evolution because without HHH and Flair he would not have learned to be as sadistic and caculating as he is today.

 

[Bill Lesnar]

Bill Lesnar believes Randy was overated in the wwe =, whilst his viper gimmick amuses Bill Lesnar. Bill Lesnar thonks Orton was and oly will be good in evolution as tripl h's bitch

 

[CyDeez]

I think yes and no. Orton WOULD have made it w/out Evolution. I don't think he would have been "The Legend Killer" ever, and possibly not the Viper, which are both great gimmicks. His push happened early because of Evolution, and it happened in greatness. But, he did have some middle ground to tread even AFTER Evolution. Remember the god-awful (IMO) Orton has a match, gets hit, and dazes out, glazed eyes? Ugh even remembering it makes me want to punch my mother in the face. I think one of his biggest pushes, and probably the most important, was his hardcore match with Mick Foley. That match, more than any other, let you know Randy Orton was for real. He was all in and he was not going anywhere for anything. Yes he was already the Legend Killer at that point, but I think that vaulted him to forever ME status from that point on. So basically, Evolution helped him, but so did other things.
p.s. I don't know why people are hating on this, but i LOOOVED the "just to let you know, my shoulder is at 98%" vignettes. Loved them so much, that recently when his shoulder was "injured" (it may have been real or not but didn't last, within the last 2 months), I was PRAYING for a shoulder update. That was the first time he was on my radar, was the updates.

Oh and I ABSOLUTELY think Batista needed Evolution. Without it he probably would have been just another big, directionless big guy. In most people's eyes i knew he was already a "Brock Lesnar wannabe". That is until he won the Royal Rumble and got some direction of his own. As much as I liked Batista (and I did) I always felt he was a little one dimensional in his persona (and at times his wrestling, but that got better with time).

I agree with you. I actually liked the vignettes as well. I knew or at least figured that Randy Orton would be good. I didn't think he would draw comparisons to Austin one day, with his Tweener-Viper Gimmick, but he has.

I liked the vignettes because they were pushing him Heel. He really wasn't a relevant guy at the time. So him updating us on his injury every week, was pretty funny. You could see they were trying to get him over as a Heel. And that obviously worked. Then he got the big push in Evolution.

Batista for sure needed Evolution. I think Orton has/had the look, the skills, and was a work in progress. I think eventually he would have made something of himself. But the Evolution push didn't hurt and pushed him waaaay along. I am not sure if Batista would have ever found a niche without Evolution.

But the more I think about it, since he was such good friends with Trips, they probably would have tried their asses off, to get "The Animal" over...

Safe to say though, for Batista AND Randy Orton. They were the right guys at the right time and seemingly were PERFECT for Evolution!

 

[SpoodBeest]

Did he need to be in Evolution build up a successful career? I'm going to say no he didn't, but it sure as hell helped him out a lot. Prior to Evolution Orton didn't do all that much. I he wrestled on SmackDown and RAW a few times before getting injured but basically he was nothing more than a rookie who was as interesting as the next jobber. After he returned from injury he sided with and joined Triple H, Ric Flair, and Batista to form "Evolution". Now this is where his career began to take off. He would help Triple H fend off any possible challengers to his title and also began a crusade of his own to humiliate legendary figures of the business, which was when he donned himself with the moniker of "The Legend Killer" defeating legends such as Shawn Michaels that year. At the end of the year Evolution stood tall over RAW as they won all titles that males could hold on RAW. Orton defeated Rob Van Dam to win the IC title, and had a great reign as champion holding the title for a solid seven months.

After this he would end up winning a shot at the World Heavyweight Championship at SummerSlam 2004 and defeated Chris Benoit that night to win the title. Due to Triple H's jealousy he kicked Orton out of Evolution and that was when the group started to crumble. Orton then had opportunities for many different feuds to feed his legend killer moniker. As he feuded with Triple H, Ric Flair, The Undertaker, and others after the break up of Evolution. As I said he still could have done well on his own but I don't think he would have shpt up the ranks as fast as he did if he wasn't in Evolution.

Being in that group did wonders for both Orton and Batista so it fulfilled a good purpose in helping build the stars of tomorrow. Batista became a huge star by the time he left WWE and Orton is the hottest star going in WWE right now. I'm sure could have gotten himself over solo as time went on through his career but that time in Evolution helped open a lot of doors for Randy Orton at a faster pace than if he would have been on his own.