The 1-2-3 Killam
Mid-Card Championship Winner
PUNK 365: A WRESTLEZONE FORUMS SPECIAL - PART 1
Discuss it all here.
Who made the best point? Cast your vote for the Day 1 "winner".
A big thanks to Dagger, KB, Sam, Shotaro, and aza1294.
Punk 365 - Day 1 Editorial
- Thread starter The 1-2-3 Killam
- Start date
PUNK 365: A WRESTLEZONE FORUMS SPECIAL - PART 1
Discuss it all here.
Who made the best point? Cast your vote for the Day 1 "winner".
A big thanks to Dagger, KB, Sam, Shotaro, and aza1294.
The 1-2-3 Killam
Mid-Card Championship Winner
This should have been in the Wrestling Spam Zone, and the original post asking for contribution should have been in the GSD. Sorry.
I had one in mind talking about how Punk's reign showed the best and worse of WWE's creative mentality at once. But I already had an RP, work and other shit to do it. Plus the topic wasn't exactly to my fancy. You're going to make more of these, right? How often?
The 1-2-3 Killam
Mid-Card Championship Winner
Yes, there will be more. No, I don't know how frequently. Do you have power to move this darn thing to the WSZ?
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
No but I do.
The 1-2-3 Killam
Mid-Card Championship Winner
Good. You get my vote, just for cleaning up my messes. Something I'm sure will be happening more frequently in the next few months. xD
Thriller Ant
Beep Bop Boop
Thanks, Dagger, for letting us know that other matches closed the show on the pay-per-views that Punk didn't have the last match. Never would've figured that one out.
The 1-2-3 Killam
Mid-Card Championship Winner
I quite enjoy the header graphic. Not my best work, but I have a very limited supply of images at my disposal when it comes to things posted on the main page. We have to own rights to any image that gets used. The most annoying difference between all the independent dirt sheets, and Wrestlezone, who is owned by a chain of multi-million dollar companies. You know, that and the 10,000 page splits we use. 
I can hook you up. I did the banner on KB's site.
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
Could i get you to change one word in mine?
In the third paragraph, it says Punk will have the fifth longest reign ever. That should say sixth.
In the third paragraph, it says Punk will have the fifth longest reign ever. That should say sixth.
The 1-2-3 Killam
Mid-Card Championship Winner
It's not a problem with the graphic design. I can use whatever brushes and effects, it's a problem with copyright on each of the images used. We have a deal with a few hosts, and I can't really operate outside of it. The last thing they want is WWE calling them and being like "hey...so..."
The 1-2-3 Killam
Mid-Card Championship Winner
No problem.
Mr. Artistic guy
Better Off This Way
Quick word; when I made my article, Punk hadn't yet beaten Macho Man's title reign. I wonder if you could just update that to say he has now beaten that reign and will surpass Cena's next week.
The 1-2-3 Killam
Mid-Card Championship Winner
On the subject of CM Punk not main eventing PPVs - a common subject in most of these submissions - I kind of feel like that's a mixed bag. There are certainly some shows that I feel like it would have been proper to have the WWE Champion go on last. It's not a rule however, and there are obvious exceptions.
Survivor Series 2011: Alberto del Rio was the WWE Champion, and wasn't almost unanimously negatively received. The bigger spectacle here though, by far, was the in-ring return of the Rock and his "once in a lifetime" tag team with John Cena. I absolutely agree with the booking order here.
TLC: CM Punk's TLC triple threat against the Miz and Alberto del Rio ended the night. It's also worth noting that John Cena didn't appear on the PPV.
Royal Rumble: CM Punk vs. Dolph Ziggler was beat out by the Royal Rumble match. Get over it.
Elimination Chamber: John Cena and Kane in an Ambulance Match was probably not the match that should have closed the show. On the other hand, the booking for the WWE Championship chamber match was awful, and people probably would have been disappointed in that ending. If ANYTHING, the World Title match was good enough to have closed the show.
WrestleMania XXVIII: John Cena vs. The Rock closed the night, and there is no disputing that this was the right call. If it makes you feel any better, the WWE Championship match WAS after the Hell in a Cell...
Extreme Rules: CM Punk vs. Chris Jericho II was a fantastic match, but even in Punk's home town, you can't tell me it was a bigger deal than the in-ring return of Brock Lesnar. The crowd would have been dead on their feet if Cena/Lesnar went on first. I was there in attendance, and as a Chicagoan and a huge CM Punk supporter, if I wasn't bothered by this call...well, you shouldn't be.
Over the Limit: WWE Championship match, or a fight between John Cena and the Raw general manager, which included the official heel turn by the Big Show? I would have preferred CM Punk to end the night, but really either of those matches had a legitimate claim to the main event spot.
No Way Out: While there was a heavy triple threat situation brewing in the WWE Championship picture, the main event featured a match with employment stipulations. It wasn't just John Cena, it was John Cena or John Laurinaitis' job on the line. Again, you could make a case for the WWE title here, but I think this is more of a losing battle than Over the Limit.
Money in the Bank: CM Punk and Daniel Bryan, while a great match, had already happened on PPV. Considering the name and purpose of the entire PPV is to crown a new Mr. Money in the Bank, and the fact that John Cena won it, I do not in any way hold it against WWE for that booking decision.
SummerSlam: Once again, you have to weigh the WWE Championship against the drawing power of Brock Lesnar's very rare wrestling appearances. Add to that his rivalry with Triple H, the COO of the company, and I don't even think it's a hard decision to make. Again, if Lesnar/HHH would have gone on first, the crowd would have been dead for the WWE title match.
Night of Champions: Hey look at that, CM Punk vs. John Cena ended the night.
Hell in a Cell: CM Punk vs. Ryback inside the Cell closed the night. And again, John Cena did not wrestle on the card.
Survivor Series 2012: CM Punk vs. John Cena vs. Ryback was the main event.
So to review, much ado about nothing.
There is one very glaring thing that sticks out when you look at all the PPV matches like this. WWE obviously does not trust CM Punk with pay-per-view buys. There were only two times when CM Punk closed a show without John Cena also attached to the match; both times John Cena was not wrestling on the show. The order of importance is quite obvious John Cena - Any rare appearance - CM Punk. Does it make me sad that that is our reality? Yes, because I love CM Punk and want him to do well. I want him to be taken seriously, and I don't want his time as CHampion to be a small foot note in the history books. But do I think it was UNFAIR of WWE to book him so "poorly" in the last year? No. No I do not. I stand behind (almost) every booking decision WWE has made in the past year of pay-per-view, as it pertains to the order of main event talents.
Survivor Series 2011: Alberto del Rio was the WWE Champion, and wasn't almost unanimously negatively received. The bigger spectacle here though, by far, was the in-ring return of the Rock and his "once in a lifetime" tag team with John Cena. I absolutely agree with the booking order here.
TLC: CM Punk's TLC triple threat against the Miz and Alberto del Rio ended the night. It's also worth noting that John Cena didn't appear on the PPV.
Royal Rumble: CM Punk vs. Dolph Ziggler was beat out by the Royal Rumble match. Get over it.
Elimination Chamber: John Cena and Kane in an Ambulance Match was probably not the match that should have closed the show. On the other hand, the booking for the WWE Championship chamber match was awful, and people probably would have been disappointed in that ending. If ANYTHING, the World Title match was good enough to have closed the show.
WrestleMania XXVIII: John Cena vs. The Rock closed the night, and there is no disputing that this was the right call. If it makes you feel any better, the WWE Championship match WAS after the Hell in a Cell...
Extreme Rules: CM Punk vs. Chris Jericho II was a fantastic match, but even in Punk's home town, you can't tell me it was a bigger deal than the in-ring return of Brock Lesnar. The crowd would have been dead on their feet if Cena/Lesnar went on first. I was there in attendance, and as a Chicagoan and a huge CM Punk supporter, if I wasn't bothered by this call...well, you shouldn't be.
Over the Limit: WWE Championship match, or a fight between John Cena and the Raw general manager, which included the official heel turn by the Big Show? I would have preferred CM Punk to end the night, but really either of those matches had a legitimate claim to the main event spot.
No Way Out: While there was a heavy triple threat situation brewing in the WWE Championship picture, the main event featured a match with employment stipulations. It wasn't just John Cena, it was John Cena or John Laurinaitis' job on the line. Again, you could make a case for the WWE title here, but I think this is more of a losing battle than Over the Limit.
Money in the Bank: CM Punk and Daniel Bryan, while a great match, had already happened on PPV. Considering the name and purpose of the entire PPV is to crown a new Mr. Money in the Bank, and the fact that John Cena won it, I do not in any way hold it against WWE for that booking decision.
SummerSlam: Once again, you have to weigh the WWE Championship against the drawing power of Brock Lesnar's very rare wrestling appearances. Add to that his rivalry with Triple H, the COO of the company, and I don't even think it's a hard decision to make. Again, if Lesnar/HHH would have gone on first, the crowd would have been dead for the WWE title match.
Night of Champions: Hey look at that, CM Punk vs. John Cena ended the night.
Hell in a Cell: CM Punk vs. Ryback inside the Cell closed the night. And again, John Cena did not wrestle on the card.
Survivor Series 2012: CM Punk vs. John Cena vs. Ryback was the main event.
So to review, much ado about nothing.
There is one very glaring thing that sticks out when you look at all the PPV matches like this. WWE obviously does not trust CM Punk with pay-per-view buys. There were only two times when CM Punk closed a show without John Cena also attached to the match; both times John Cena was not wrestling on the show. The order of importance is quite obvious John Cena - Any rare appearance - CM Punk. Does it make me sad that that is our reality? Yes, because I love CM Punk and want him to do well. I want him to be taken seriously, and I don't want his time as CHampion to be a small foot note in the history books. But do I think it was UNFAIR of WWE to book him so "poorly" in the last year? No. No I do not. I stand behind (almost) every booking decision WWE has made in the past year of pay-per-view, as it pertains to the order of main event talents.
The 1-2-3 Killam
Mid-Card Championship Winner
To add further discussion, here are the PPV buys broken down for CM Punk's title reign.
TLC: 182,000 (Punk/ADR/Miz)
Royal Rumble: 443,000 (RR match)
Elimination Chamber: 178,000 (Cena/Kane)
WrestleMania 28: 1,300,000 (Cena/Rock)
Extreme Rules: 250,000 (Cena/Lesnar)
Over the Limit: 171,000 (Cena/Laurinaitis)
No Way Out: 200,000 (Cena/Show)
Money in the Bank: 196,000 (MITB)
SummerSlam: 350,000 (Lesnar/HHH)
Night of Champions: 190,000 (Cena/Punk)
Hell in a Cell: 200,000 (Punk/Ryback)
Survivor Series: ???
I don't see a ton of consistency here. What I do see is that John Cena doesn't actually sell any better or worse than CM Punk. All their PPV's are in the 170-200K range, and almost all of them are down from the year before. A good indicator of this is that Cena vs. Punk at NoC drew 190K, which is almost a dead average between all the rest of their shows, so it doesn't look like matters a whole lot which one of them closes out the night.
What I can say is that Lesnar definitely brings in some extra money, and that the SummerSlam brand is still a viable money-maker. Mania broke records by a HUGE margin, but after the Rock returned at Survivor Series '11 and that show did god awful in terms of ratings, do you think that's more the Rock, or the fact that WWE had a GIANT marketing campaign and started going social media crazy during the build-up?
Essentiall what you can take away from these numbers is that Mania is a global success now more than ever, it doesn't matter if Cena or Punk closes a show, and both the Rumble and SummerSlam brands are still huge drawing magnets.
TLC: 182,000 (Punk/ADR/Miz)
Royal Rumble: 443,000 (RR match)
Elimination Chamber: 178,000 (Cena/Kane)
WrestleMania 28: 1,300,000 (Cena/Rock)
Extreme Rules: 250,000 (Cena/Lesnar)
Over the Limit: 171,000 (Cena/Laurinaitis)
No Way Out: 200,000 (Cena/Show)
Money in the Bank: 196,000 (MITB)
SummerSlam: 350,000 (Lesnar/HHH)
Night of Champions: 190,000 (Cena/Punk)
Hell in a Cell: 200,000 (Punk/Ryback)
Survivor Series: ???
I don't see a ton of consistency here. What I do see is that John Cena doesn't actually sell any better or worse than CM Punk. All their PPV's are in the 170-200K range, and almost all of them are down from the year before. A good indicator of this is that Cena vs. Punk at NoC drew 190K, which is almost a dead average between all the rest of their shows, so it doesn't look like matters a whole lot which one of them closes out the night.
What I can say is that Lesnar definitely brings in some extra money, and that the SummerSlam brand is still a viable money-maker. Mania broke records by a HUGE margin, but after the Rock returned at Survivor Series '11 and that show did god awful in terms of ratings, do you think that's more the Rock, or the fact that WWE had a GIANT marketing campaign and started going social media crazy during the build-up?
Essentiall what you can take away from these numbers is that Mania is a global success now more than ever, it doesn't matter if Cena or Punk closes a show, and both the Rumble and SummerSlam brands are still huge drawing magnets.
Couple thoughts;
1. It's absolutely fascinating, at least to me, that Money in the Bank did 1,000 buys more than last year's version. Remember, that was the beginning of the Summer of Punk, the great angle that was going to solidify Punk's spot in the main event.
Still, this version, with a main event of Cena, Big Show, and the peanut gallery did about the same number as that, and actually did a little better.
2. That 200,000 for Hell in a Cell floors me. It tells me either one of two things, which we'll figure out when the Survivor Series buyrate comes out....
a. The seven week build to the PPV really helped.
b. People want to see Ryback.... Or, at least the idea of a Ryback. This was an effective way to build a challenger with credibility, and they've hit hot iron with Ryback.
That 190,000 for Night of Champions may seem like an average number, but I'd chalk that up more to the fact that while Cena-Punk is great, fans have also gotten it for free for months on television, and this was their third major PPV match against one another.
Mr. Artistic guy
Better Off This Way
I was torn but eventually won over by Shotaro's piece.
Well I don't. I certainly feel like there's a lack of trust or hesitance to have Punk spend more time on top and have John Cena genuinely step out of the main spotlight like Orton has to give someone else a chance. I can understand Wrestlemania, but this is still the year in which WWE or World title headlined PPV's the least. That's 7 PPV's not counting the Royal Rumble in one year. Which is just plain crazy. A Money In The Bank match beat Punk out of the main event just because it had Cena in it.
Little Jerry Lawler
Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids
So, Dagger, what is this business about world titles always needing to go on last?
And had about the same buyrate as the prior year's incarnation, with Punk and Cena, which was built so well.
I don't think there's enough evidence to say it doesn't matter if Cena or Punk were headlining, but that's just me.
I agree, the point of my editorial was more that TLC was the only time they've really given Punk the ball as the primary selling point.
I don't think that WWE have necessarily been WRONG in any of their main event decisions and I agree with what HGR has to say regarding each main event.
That doesn't change the fact that the WWE title has been dropped down in standing because too many guys are too good for it. The two eras when WWE's popularity peaked were both at a time when the Champion was either keeping the title from Evil (Hogan) or Evil was keeping the title away from "The Guy" (Austin)
I don't think that WWE have necessarily been WRONG in any of their main event decisions and I agree with what HGR has to say regarding each main event.
That doesn't change the fact that the WWE title has been dropped down in standing because too many guys are too good for it. The two eras when WWE's popularity peaked were both at a time when the Champion was either keeping the title from Evil (Hogan) or Evil was keeping the title away from "The Guy" (Austin)
As for who won, if it at all matters....
Dagger and KB essentially said the same thing, with KB saying it better; Shotaro, I was quite close to voting you, but your insidious use of ALL CAPZ keeps my vote away from you. Aza..... No.
Uncle Sam, you win a battle of attrition. And boy, was it a battle of attrition, if I ever did see one.
Dagger and KB essentially said the same thing, with KB saying it better; Shotaro, I was quite close to voting you, but your insidious use of ALL CAPZ keeps my vote away from you. Aza..... No.
Uncle Sam, you win a battle of attrition. And boy, was it a battle of attrition, if I ever did see one.
Fair point, were it not for the sheer intensity of the chant on the night I would not have done it - but the fact I was close to getting a vote at all is pretty awesome. (This is the first time I have ever even attempted anything like this - not much real writing in mathematics)
I'm aware of the buyrates thing, but it's kinda ridiculous that the MITB match, which never even headlined it's own PPV, suddenly does this time because of Cena. Not to mention other matches that otherwise would never have business closing a show.
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