Pick Your Poison: Shawn Michaels or Bret Hart

[Prax]

In my opinion although the match was well put together in terms of psychology, looking back on it now it is fairly boring by today's standards. We're used to seeing a lot of high flying and high octane wrestling. Just go back and watch a flair hour long match from the 80s, it's probably just as slow paced as the HBK/Hart match. They were using an old school format of storytelling in a match that possibly was a little out of fashion at the time and a lot out of fashion right now.

I can't name any high spots from the match because it's been years since I've watched it (I will now), but I'm sure they paced themselves well for an hour-long main event.

The other problem would probably be the hate-factor between the two wrestlers. We all know how they felt each other getting close to 1997 and beyond, but did they really have that much heat going into this main event? I'm not entirely sure but I don't think so. Knowing how the two feel about each other, maybe it was a disappointment to fans in terms of the emotion of the match between the competitors.

I have to watch the match again, but to conclude... Hindsight is 20/20.

 

[reddevil69]

Shawn Michaels is way more of a brawler than Hart is even if Shawn doesn't come across as the brawler type.Thats literally the only match that Bret ever had where he became a brawler.

Bret sticks to more of mat based skills and chopping down his opponent.

Shawn has been in plenty of matches where he has punched and chopped his opponent many times.

Bret Hart is known for having some of the best 'worked' punches in the history of the business....he has gone toe to toe and brawled many times and not just with Austin....just watch his matches with the Undertaker, who is considered by many to be one of the best brawlers ever....go back and watch some Hart Foundation footage...Bret can brawl and brawl well period....doing 50 'Flair' chops in every match you have does not constitute brawling....

 

[hbk&triple h]

Shawn throws punches and Bret does throw good punches but the fact is Shawn brawls way more than Bret does.I can only think of one match where he brawled with Taker.The match at Summerslam 97 was all about the leg work.

 

[reddevil69]

Seriously? Have you ever seen any Tom Billington matches.




I totally get the story of the match. They told a story and I apreciate it. Thing is the match was still boring. I'm not saying it was a bad match. It was a good match. Just boring.





True but they didn't do anything really that would blow them out. There were the occasional slice of action. But thats it. Flair used to do it every night. And in my opinion HBK is vastly superior and Hart is equally as good as Flair. So I'm sure they could have managed a bit more movement. It was Wrestle Mania.




Really? For an hour long match there isn't much action at all.





Then there not as great as people would have you believe. Lesnar, Angle, Rock, HHH etc managed the same why cant they. They should have thought up some more moves. They should have been better prepared.




Many high spots? Name me 10. I was an hour long match after all.




Nobody can debate that.

i liked the match but will agree that it could have been better, and everybody knew that HBK was going to win the belt that night which took alot of the suspense out of the match....Shawn was pushed through the roof leading up to the match and there was no way he was going to lose in the main event of Mania 2 years in a row...as far as your Flair comment, i've watched many of Flair's matches and he was not exactly Kurt Angle out there....i realize it was the 80's and the style was different but Flair sat in alot of headlocks and arm bars and general 'wear down'/ filler moves...i've seen Randy Savage and Ted DiBiase have far better matches together in 1988 then any of Flair's matches with Windham, Luger, Sting, and Funk....

 

[Skillz]

Seriously? Have you ever seen any Tom Billington matches.

Yes seriously, and yes I have seen some Tom Billington matches and he was a great wrestler.

I totally get the story of the match. They told a story and I apreciate it. Thing is the match was still boring. I'm not saying it was a bad match. It was a good match. Just boring.

I don't get it, in your first post you said it was shite, and now you're saying it was a good match? Anyway, I guess it's just your opinion that the match was boring, i thought it was fantastic.

True but they didn't do anything really that would blow them out. There were the occasional slice of action. But thats it. Flair used to do it every night. And in my opinion HBK is vastly superior and Hart is equally as good as Flair. So I'm sure they could have managed a bit more movement. It was Wrestle Mania.

I thought this match was well worthy of being a WrestleMania main event. Again this is just a difference of opinion, and that's fine.

Really? For an hour long match there isn't much action at all.

Suplexes, submission holds, mat wrestling, high spots (see below)... For me, this is great action.

Then there not as great as people would have you believe. Lesnar, Angle, Rock, HHH etc managed the same why cant they. They should have thought up some more moves. They should have been better prepared.

You misunderstood what I said, or maybe I didn't make it clear enough. By pulling off all of their moves I mean actually doing them, and some moves they don't normally do too, not leaving them out. For example, in the match, Michaels did a fisherman suplex and a gutwrench powerbomb, two moves that he had never done before. And Hart tried some sort of knee drop move from the second rope that he had never done before either.

Many high spots? Name me 10. I was an hour long match after all.

From my memory:

1. Michaels giving a plancha to Hart over the top rope.
2. Hart backdropping Michaels over the top rope out onto the floor.
3. Michaels jumping from the top rope onto Hart outside the ring.
4. Hart diving through the ropes outside onto Michaels outside the ring.
5. Hart giving Michaels a superplex from the top rope.
6. Hart giving Michaels a belly to back suplex from the top rope.
7. Michaels giving Hart a diving elbow drop from the top rope.
8. Hart giving Michaels an elbow drop from the second rope.
9. Michaels giving Hart a hurricanrana from the second rope.
10. Michaels giving Hart a moonsault from the top rope.

And you're saying this isn't good enough action?

 

[Shocky]

I've always been up in the air on this match, I just felt it was booked improperly. What in the Hell is the point of booking an Iron Man match, and then it just becomes a 63 minute regular match?

The WWF was trying to get these guys over and that they were so evenly matched that one couldn't beat the other in an hour, yadda yadda. It's stupid and was just a bad idea. If the match had more high and low points, like pinfalls and submissions, then maybe it would have moved better. What would have been wrong with an Iron Man match that went 4-3.

If you had 7 pinfalls, you could pace the match for 7 mini matches, but instead it was one very long, very drawn out match. I don't blame Hart/Michaels for this match being on the boring side, I blame creative for the direction they booked this match. I'm 100% confident that if multiple falls were done in this match, it easily would have been one of the greatest matches, but the 1 fall was just ******ed.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

I don't get it, in your first post you said it was shite, and now you're saying it was a good match? Anyway, I guess it's just your opinion that the match was boring, i thought it was fantastic.

That's just the name of the thread. Shite rhymes with alright that's the only reason for it. Obvioulsy it's not a shit match.

From my memory:

1. Michaels giving a plancha to Hart over the top rope.
2. Hart backdropping Michaels over the top rope out onto the floor.
3. Michaels jumping from the top rope onto Hart outside the ring.
4. Hart diving through the ropes outside onto Michaels outside the ring.
5. Hart giving Michaels a superplex from the top rope.
6. Hart giving Michaels a belly to back suplex from the top rope.
7. Michaels giving Hart a diving elbow drop from the top rope.
8. Hart giving Michaels an elbow drop from the second rope.
9. Michaels giving Hart a hurricanrana from the second rope.
10. Michaels giving Hart a moonsault from the top rope.

And you're saying this isn't good enough action?

Pretty much yeah. For an hour long match, two of WWF's best workers, Wrestle Mania main event. In my opinion that isn't good enough. And personally I dont consider moves that a certain superstar does in every match to be a high spot. If they do it in every match it's just routine.

But we'll agree to disagree.

 

[natecook59]

For everybody who says there should have been multiple pinfalls and such, it would not have made any sense story wise. Here it is in HBK's own words from his book,

"...I didn't think Bret and I should be beating each other a bunch. If we were that easy to beat, we shouldn't be there wrestling for the World Wrestling Federation Championship."

As far as people thinking this match was boring, I just think that many fans today do not have the patience for this style of wrestling. This match built excitement for an entire hour until the climax at the end of the match. I think this was an excellent match, but I can understand how many fans today don't like it.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

As far as people thinking this match was boring, I just think that many fans today do not have the patience for this style of wrestling. This match built excitement for an entire hour until the climax at the end of the match. I think this was an excellent match, but I can understand how many fans today don't like it.

What about all the fans of Brian Danielson, Nigel McGuinness, Ric Flair etc? They wrestle and used to wrestle long slow paced matches. And non of them loose my intrest.

 

[kennyg9]

I personally think the match was a success even though i think they could have had a 2-1 pinfall total. Bret should have won the first fall maybe by count out around the 30 min mark. Then have a beaten down HBK win with a rollup around the 40 min mark. And then have the rest of the match go down like it did. Still though i believe this match was a success because it had a tremendous storyline to it with HBK trying to fulfill his boyhood dream and you had the top two stars in the WWF at the time going at it. I dont know about the rest of you but when i think of Wrestlemania matches or moments...this is definitely one of them that comes to my mind first.

 

[Cena Blows]

You've got to be crazy to even try and TOUCH the WM 12 Match..HBK VS Bret Hart. That was simply the best match in wrestling history. The top two wrestlers of all time..wrestling for an hour? fantastic. Sorry there were no..five knuckle shuffles..or...Batista bombs or even a swanton. I think if you trash this match..you are probably just used to the new style...and perhaps you havent been a fan as long as I have. Thats not a personal shot..I've just been watching for a really long time..and NOTHING can touch that match..in my opinion anyways.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

You've got to be crazy to even try and TOUCH the WM 12 Match..HBK VS Bret Hart. That was simply the best match in wrestling history. The top two wrestlers of all time..wrestling for an hour? fantastic. Sorry there were no..five knuckle shuffles..or...Batista bombs or even a swanton. I think if you trash this match..you are probably just used to the new style...and perhaps you havent been a fan as long as I have. Thats not a personal shot..I've just been watching for a really long time..and NOTHING can touch that match..in my opinion anyways.

Your welcome to your opinion but I've been watching wrestling for 18-19 years now. And I'm not a Cena or Batista fan. I am a fan of HBK & Hart though, that's what makes me dissapointed in the match. They were capable of so much more.

 

[LLAALL]

you are wrong my friend... every match that bret had once he got on steroids at the end of 96 and turned heel was more or less based around brawling... he stopped doing his, im an awesome technician thing and started fighting more like a heel... he transitioned beautifully, and has more ability to brawl than most in the buisness,...
him vs austin WM 13 is a classic example. many more tho... him and shawn brawled a bunch of times, but brets punches and kicks always looked better... any personal feud he was in he brawled except for with owen...
especially in WCW when he was part of the NWO, its all he did.

 

[Shocky]

Bret Hart on Steroids in 1996? You better have evidence or something to back that statement up. I've never heard of that one before. Bret doesn't look like a juicer to me, but then again, neither did Michaels...

 

[reddevil69]

Bret was not a juicer...he even admitted as much this past week while speaking about the Benoit tragedy. he stated that he used steroids on only two occasions and both times they were for rehabbing an injury and both times he went to Vince McMahon and cleared it with him first.And for anyone out there who is going to read this and say 'well of course he won't admit to juicing', i think it has been proven time and time again that Bret's credibility in this industry is rock solid and that has been displayed once again with how he has represented himself and the business in the media during the past few weeks.

 

[reddevil69]

[The ring General argument... i found both to be great storytellers, but again I have to go with HBk as having the edge. Since about 1999, HBK matches have pretty much gone the exact same way... HBK is pummeled... he regains the advantage... reverse atomic drop... punch... punch... kick... scoop slam... elbow from the top.... sweet chin music.... (pretty much, lol).. regardless, it ALWAYS gets the crowd going. (and I'm not denying Hart's superiority as a pure wrestler). Not to mention that HBK still is a great wrestler and can do a lot of stuff in the ring, despite being limited to basically being a glorified brawler who can actually climb the ropes and extent his foot over his head.


I like how you pointed out that Shawn does pretty much does the same routine in all of his matches because that is the exact same thing that both Shawn and Flair accused Bret of doing in his matches and that was the their reasoning for saying Bret was not a good worker....a wrestler is supposed to have a patented series of moves that build up to a finish, it's not supposed to be bio-chemistry....when shawn does the same old 'fighting his way back, odds are aginst him, nip-up from the mat, flying elbow, scoop slam, elbow off the top rope and finally his super kick for the win' it's apparently a work of brilliance, but according to HBK and Flair, Bret was inflexible and difficult to work with because he wanted to finish his matches with his patented moves....

 

[Maidenfan18]

Did the two have real hate for eachother at this time?

Has there been interviews of the two about this match? Did they work stiff with eachother?

Is it true that Shawn actually told Bret to "get the **** out of my ring?" After carefully watching the end of the match I noticed Shawn told Earl Hebner twice to "get him out of the ring." Nothing was said to Bret though, so I think that's a case of Bret just making it sound worse then it actually was.

Shawn definately did look cocky/mad after the match. Earl Hebner was putting the belt around Shawns waste after the match but was taking too long so Shawn turned around and kinda pushed Earl away basically saying forget about it. I think it just made Shawn look like an asshole.

Anyways, was it around this time that Shawn started causing problems?

 

[Shocky]

I think that was a good post, but probably not strong enough to be it's own thread, so I moved it in here. I think it will throw more fuel to the fire and get this thread going again.

All I know is, Bret and Michaels wrestled for over 60 minutes, and Bret wanted to shake Michaels' hand. Michaels wanted the spotlight for himself, and this caused the big rift between the two. I'm pretty sure that Michaels and Hart didn't care too much for each other before this, but this certainly was the big turning point in their personal distaste for one another.

 

[reddevil69]

I think that was a good post, but probably not strong enough to be it's own thread, so I moved it in here. I think it will throw more fuel to the fire and get this thread going again.

All I know is, Bret and Michaels wrestled for over 60 minutes, and Bret wanted to shake Michaels' hand. Michaels wanted the spotlight for himself, and this caused the big rift between the two. I'm pretty sure that Michaels and Hart didn't care too much for each other before this, but this certainly was the big turning point in their personal distaste for one another.

on the subject of 'heat' between the two,I just watched a new shoot interview with Kevin Nash....now, i've read Shawn's book and he tries to come off as being a changed man, but he takes cheap shots at Bret in the book...he states in his book that Bret was overrated and that his best friend Kevin Nash found him difficult to work with and had a hard time with him personally...i just watched with my own eyes the words out of Nash's mouth on this interview that was conducted 5 weeks ago and he clearly states that he loved working with Bret and that his match with Bret at survivor series 1995 in which he dropped the title to Bret was in his top 3 career matches and that he thinks Bret was not overrated at all...he also states that he never felt that Bret felt threatened at all by the kliq's politics, so why does Shawn insist on writing this shit in his book and always try to rewrite history in his favor?....

 

[reddevil69]

Michaels has done much more for the business than Hart ever could. He put the "Entertainment" in Sports Entertainment.

If Bret Hart had not opened the doors and proved to Vince Mcmahon that a wrestler who is not a giant could carry the world title and be an international draw, Michaels would have NEVER had an opportunity to reach the levels he did....how many times must it be said?...Bret drew more money than shawn when they were with the same company...i'm not talking about the last five years...Bret has not wrestled since 2000....Bret was a bigger draw in the international markets than just about anyone in the 1990's with the exception of Undertaker....it's all on paper and the information is there to support it, it's not up for debate when it comes to statistics and facts...they are both great performers but to say that shawn did more for the business than bret ever did is asinine,uninformed and plain fucking ignorant.....you also probably believe the urban myth that Randy Savage slept with Stephanie McMahon when she was 12 years old....

 

[Slyfox696]

If Bret Hart had not opened the doors and proved to Vince Mcmahon that a wrestler who is not a giant could carry the world title and be an international draw, Michaels would have NEVER had an opportunity to reach the levels he did....how many times must it be said?...Bret drew more money than shawn when they were with the same company...i'm not talking about the last five years...Bret has not wrestled since 2000....Bret was a bigger draw in the international markets than just about anyone in the 1990's with the exception of Undertaker....it's all on paper and the information is there to support it, it's not up for debate when it comes to statistics and facts...they are both great performers but to say that shawn did more for the business than bret ever did is asinine,uninformed and plain fucking ignorant.....you also probably believe the urban myth that Randy Savage slept with Stephanie McMahon when she was 12 years old....

I think you defend Bret Hart more than I do John Cena.


Haha, it's cool though because you have been pretty spot on in just about everything.

 

[benmaney4]

I'm gonna have to go with Shawn on this one. I just think he has done way more for the buisness than Bret ever could. Shawn helped make WWE what it is today. Without Shawn WWE would only be a shadow of what it is today.

 

[reddevil69]

I'm gonna have to go with Shawn on this one. I just think he has done way more for the buisness than Bret ever could. Shawn helped make WWE what it is today. Without Shawn WWE would only be a shadow of what it is today.

there are alot of wrestlers who have worked thier asses off to make the WWE what it is today...Shawn was not even wrestling when the company got back on it's feet and became the top promotion in the industry again...

 

[Big Ace]

there are alot of wrestlers who have worked thier asses off to make the WWE what it is today...Shawn was not even wrestling when the company got back on it's feet and became the top promotion in the industry again...

Too bad that he was the one who actually jobbed to Austin to begin the whole Attitude Era eh? Face it, WCW was still winning in 1997 when Austin lost to Bret. More and more were tuning into WWF, but they didn't begin winning until he actually won the Belt. Oh, and who gave him the belt? Shawn Michaels. With tears in his eyes because of the pain he endured to do it, but guess what? It started a revolution. A revolution that Bret refused to put over until he saw how big Austin became.

 

[hardyz_23]

i do not know who 2 pick...Bret Hart beat Shawn Michaels 4 the intercontnentle title.....but Shawn Michaels beat Bret Hart 4 the wwe so who 2 pick.........SHAWN MICHAELS... my gut said shawn michaels