Pick Your Poison: Hulk Hogan or Ric Flair

[FoleyIsGod]

It sure sounds like you know a lot about the backstage happenings in WCW 1997-98 and how Hogan's creative control was used. Are you a former employee or what? Just wondering how you know so much.

I read a lot of books and interviews from former wrestlers. And its pretty clear there is something going on by the way Hogan got his victories and "disappeared" at the convieent times(see NBA basketball). Except the time when he came back late and Nitro was doing better ratings then when he was headlining every week.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Ugh. One last time FTW.

Wrestling promoters have promotions to make money. Hulk Hogan was the greatest money making face AND heel of all time. He was the lead of the two biggest characters, and movements in wrestling history, and is the reason the game is the way it is today. Period. If this were olympic mat wrestling, then maybe even then you could say flair was better. but probably not even. Everyone forgets the vast majority of FLairs offense for years was dirty heel tactis, IE eye pokes, chop blocks, and low blows. He isnt friggin Kurt Angle. He is Ric FLair. And this is sports entertainment. More people were entertained by Hogan over the years, and its by an extremely wide margin.

 

[DMan23]

I read a lot of books and interviews from former wrestlers. And its pretty clear there is something going on by the way Hogan got his victories and "disappeared" at the convieent times(see NBA basketball). Except the time when he came back late and Nitro was doing better ratings then when he was headlining every week.

I have no idea what you're referring to by "disappeared". The only reason WCW was able to start Monday Nitro to begin with is because of Hogan. They never would've had the confidence to go head on with Raw if weren't for Hogan and what he was bringing to WCW at that time. Oh, and that NWO thing, which Hogan was the leader of, was the main reason Nitro crushed Raw for 83 straight weeks.

 

[FoleyIsGod]

I have no idea what you're referring to by "disappeared". The only reason WCW was able to start Monday Nitro to begin with is because of Hogan. They never would've had the confidence to go head on with Raw if weren't for Hogan and what he was bringing to WCW at that time. Oh, and that NWO thing, which Hogan was the leader of, was the main reason Nitro crushed Raw for 83 straight weeks.

It wasnt just Hogan that helped WCW win. Nitro was THE show because it was so damn unpredictable. You had guys like Luger jumping over, a complete wanker like Bischoff playing an heel, had the marquee value of Nah, Hogan(granted), and superb uncard with Jericho, Benoit etc.

 

[Slyfox696]

Gotta disagree with several of your points. The term putting someone over and merely letting them win is different. Billy Kidman got kicked around the ring, before Hogan simply laid down so he would lose. He used politcs to get out of jobbing to Orton at Summerslam(injured knees my arse). The sting match was a joke, potentially it could have been great but Hogan politicked in the end using his creative control to make Sting look weak.

Putting someone over is more than just what happens in the match. In several of those cases, just being in the same feud with Hogan put guys over. Sting is the prime example of this. Sting was a guy who was never a massive draw...until he feuded with Hogan.

Some of those guys, like Beefcake and Paul White, are good friends with Hogan, hence why he lets them go over. And wait, didnt Hulk Hogan leave the wwe when he felt that Lesnar and Angle were treated as bigger stars than him(it was 2003, not 1983)

Who cares if they are his friends, he still put them over. You don't think that guys like Sting, Arn, Steamboat, etc. were Flair's friends?

And Hulk Hogan let those guys kill him. I don't know why Hogan left, but he certainly had no problem letting those guys go over.

The Goldberg match was changed from a house show to tv so it looked to the Tuirner bigwigs in attendance that Hogan drew the huge gate reciepts(even though it was sold out before Hogan/Goldberg was booked, politics are such an amazing thing)

What a load. The match was changed because Bischoff was so desperate to win a ratings war, he gave away a huge PPV match on Free TV. It was rushed because Bischoff thought that by winning the ratings war, he'd win the total war.

It was just another bad booking decision in a long line of bad booking decisions by Bischoff.

I greew up with Hoigan and thought he was the bees knees. Till I grew up and saw the crap matches(being a teenager made me relaise there was so much more to wrestling) aand the screwy endings made me hate him. Flair however, I got into when he came to the WWE the second time round. Things leike youtube and dvds opened my eyes to the star Flair was. They will only be one Ric Flair, you can get politicking, washed up superstars tenapenny nowadays(Hi Triple H)

Yes, because Flair has never been accused of politics, or working matches with screwy endings.

I read a lot of books and interviews from former wrestlers. And its pretty clear there is something going on by the way Hogan got his victories and "disappeared" at the convieent times(see NBA basketball). Except the time when he came back late and Nitro was doing better ratings then when he was headlining every week.

Ratings don't really mean near as much as value to company. And I've already noted how WCW took off when Hogan was around. I pointed out their losses back in 93 and 94, and how the company started making money in 95. How PPV buyrates did big numbers in the second half of 94...which was when Hogan got there.

It wasnt just Hogan that helped WCW win. Nitro was THE show because it was so damn unpredictable. You had guys like Luger jumping over, a complete wanker like Bischoff playing an heel, had the marquee value of Nah, Hogan(granted), and superb uncard with Jericho, Benoit etc.

Well, it was the nWo that helped WCW win. And the nWo would have been nothing if not for Hollywood Hogan. He was the reason that peopled booed the nWo. The Outsiders got cheered, but Hogan played the heel that the entire WCW storyline revolved around. I mean, how much sense would it make for guys like Luger and Sting to "save" WCW and its fans from the nWo, if everybody liked the nWo more.

Hogan was what made it work.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Putting someone over is more than just what happens in the match. In several of those cases, just being in the same feud with Hogan put guys over. Sting is the prime example of this. Sting was a guy who was never a massive draw...until he feuded with Hogan.

Fantastic point. IWC people seem to LOVE The Undertaker, but remember - The Undertaker was originally put over by Hulk Hogan at Survivor Series. Ultimate Warrior was just a well-built IC Champ until WM6. Even Slaughter wasn't very much until the rub with Hogan. The only legit draw Hogan actually inherited a feud with was Savage.

Who cares if they are his friends, he still put them over. You don't think that guys like Sting, Arn, Steamboat, etc. were Flair's friends?

A great point. Also remember that top guys "putting over their friends" happens in business all the time. Hell, the dating term "wingman" is derived from a friend doing everything possible to make the date seeker look great because he's a friend.

 

[KoolKade]

I don't know why this debate is still going on. I am a Flair fan all the way and love him 10 times better than Hogan, but realistically, Hogan is the better draw. To quote many others on this thread, he was part of the reason why the wrestling boom in the mid-80s suceeded. I was a big fan of wrestling back then, Hogan was marketable, he had the cartoon, the shirts, the ice cream bars, Hogan was big! Non-wrestling fans knew who he was. He was a mainstream star. I think being the WWF was in New York and on NBC helped him and the company reached unbelieveable heights. Even Flair himself said in his biography, "To Be the Man" that Hogan was the biggest draw in wrestling of all time. Like I stated before, I am more of a Flair fan, I loved all his matches he had, he didn't have to be as big as Hogan, all he had to be was Flair, and that's why he got so much respect in the business.

 

[KoolKade]

I have no idea what you're referring to by "disappeared". The only reason WCW was able to start Monday Nitro to begin with is because of Hogan. They never would've had the confidence to go head on with Raw if weren't for Hogan and what he was bringing to WCW at that time. Oh, and that NWO thing, which Hogan was the leader of, was the main reason Nitro crushed Raw for 83 straight weeks.

Well how come Jim Crockett put the first Clash Of the Champions against Wrestlemania IV and did excellent ratings? This was years before the NWA/WCW grabbed Hogan. Flair and Sting took a huge bite out of Wrestlemania's PPV rates.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Well how come Jim Crockett put the first Clash Of the Champions against Wrestlemania IV and did excellent ratings? This was years before the NWA/WCW grabbed Hogan. Flair and Sting took a huge bite out of Wrestlemania's PPV rates.

Hogan didnt headline WM 4. Randy Savage Vs Ted Dibiase did. In fact, Hogan was eliminated in the first hour of the program, after a 4 minute match.

 

[FlairFan2003]

Hogan didnt headline WM 4. Randy Savage Vs Ted Dibiase did. In fact, Hogan was eliminated in the first hour of the program, after a 4 minute match.

WHAT!!!!!! Hogan didn't headline WM IV ???!! I guess nobody in america thought Hogan would win the tournament that year, I guess everybody knew that Savage would win LOL - Flair and Sting took at least 3 million directly out of McMahon's pocket that day despite WM being THE SHOW and Hogan's quest to regain the title he never should have lost being THE DRAW OF THE SHOW.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

MAYBE IF YOU PUT THINGS IN CAPS MY LITTLE BRAIN WILL BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND RIGHT??

Um, he didnt. The tournament did. And no, no one knew that savage would win, but no one knew if Hogan would either. So no Hogan didnt headline it, the tournament did. So you are saying that a brand new event, with that promotions top two guys fighting over said promotions most prestigous belt, on free TV no less, taking away buys from a wide open 4 round tournament is supposed to be some sort of measure of comparison of drawing power between Flair and Hogan??? Thats a laughable argument at best.

 

[Slyfox696]

Well how come Jim Crockett put the first Clash Of the Champions against Wrestlemania IV and did excellent ratings?

Excellent ratings? No, it did a 5.6 rating (Flair's book) on cable TV, at a time when there were very few people with cable television. And since Nielsen ratings measure the percentage of households with availability to a program, a 5.6 cable TV rating, at a time with very few cable TV subscribers (using Nielsen research, I'd guesstimate somewhere between 15-20% of all TV viewing audiences), and VERY few cable TV stations, is not an "excellent rating".

This was years before the NWA/WCW grabbed Hogan. Flair and Sting took a huge bite out of Wrestlemania's PPV rates.

How do you figure that? More on this down below, in reference to FlairFan.

Hogan didnt headline WM 4. Randy Savage Vs Ted Dibiase did. In fact, Hogan was eliminated in the first hour of the program, after a 4 minute match.

To be fair, he was still one of the drawing attractions on the card. But, I agree with the tournament headlining. Tournaments don't generally draw well anyways.

With that being said, Mania 4 still drew 585,000 buys, which is more than the 400,000 for Wrestlemania 3.

WHAT!!!!!! Hogan didn't headline WM IV ???!! I guess nobody in america thought Hogan would win the tournament that year, I guess everybody knew that Savage would win LOL - Flair and Sting took at least 3 million directly out of McMahon's pocket that day despite WM being THE SHOW and Hogan's quest to regain the title he never should have lost being THE DRAW OF THE SHOW.

3 million fans, or 3 million dollars? Doesn't matter, you're still wrong.

Let's say, for a moment, you presume that WCW took 3 million fans away. Well, that's just silly considering the WWF/E has NEVER had 3 million PPV buys for any show. In fact, I don't believe ANY PPV has done 3 million buys. So, I'll presume you mean 3 million dollars.

Wrestlemania cost $24.95 back at Wrestlemania 4. At 24.95, for $3 million dollars to be out of Vince's pocket, that would mean that 120,240 people would have WANTED to buy originally, and then didn't because of the Clash. That would be 20% of the final total of 585,000. So, what grounds do you have to say that Clash took 20% of the buyers away from Wrestlemania, when Wrestlemania 3 did 400,000 buys, and Wrestlemania 4 did 585,000 buys, an approximate 40% increase in PPV buys?

Did the Clash cost Vince some buyers? Probably. But no where near as extreme as you are making it out to be.

 

[simonhirst]

if the question is who had the biggest impact, then commercially, very few people get close to Hogan. However, impact doesnt mean just commercially. Interms of influence on todays wrestlers, i think Ric Flair would win hands down. Hes the true professional, Hogan thinks hes bigger than wrestling and that doesnt set the best example.
I cannot really remember Hulk Hogans last match, im thinking against Shawn Micahels, but cannot be 100% sure. Everyone remembers Ric Flairs, an emotional time for all and you can see what wrestling truly meant to Ric, you don't get that same vibe with Hogan. So for me, in overall impact, it has to be Ric Flair because of what hes gave back through other wrestler and through himself.

 

[Slyfox696]

if the question is who had the biggest impact, then commercially, very few people get close to Hogan. However, impact doesnt mean just commercially. Interms of influence on todays wrestlers, i think Ric Flair would win hands down. Hes the true professional, Hogan thinks hes bigger than wrestling and that doesnt set the best example.

Without Hogan, the business as it exists today wouldn't be.

The majority of wrestling who ARE in the business are influenced by Hogan. Particularly the guys with great bodies. Just because a slew of wrestlers haven't come out and said "He's my idol", doesn't mean that Hogan isn't responsible for them being there in the first place.

I cannot really remember Hulk Hogans last match, im thinking against Shawn Micahels, but cannot be 100% sure.

Well, he kicked Khali out of the ring at the Raw season premiere show, and I think he worked a match against Paul White that was supposed to be Lawler. But his last WWE match was against Orton at Summerslam 2006.

Everyone remembers Ric Flairs

Well, yes, I would hope people could remember 1 month ago.

an emotional time for all and you can see what wrestling truly meant to Ric, you don't get that same vibe with Hogan.

The fact that Hogan was in the business for 30 years doesn't show you what it means to him?

So for me, in overall impact, it has to be Ric Flair because of what hes gave back through other wrestler and through himself.

That doesn't even make sense.

 

[KoolKade]

Hogan didnt headline WM 4. Randy Savage Vs Ted Dibiase did. In fact, Hogan was eliminated in the first hour of the program, after a 4 minute match.

People didn't get up for Wrestlemania 4 to see Savage take on DiBiase and you know it. They knew Hogan was on the card and that's all they needed. The tounament was what they came to see.

 

[KoolKade]

Excellent ratings? No, it did a 5.6 rating (Flair's book) on cable TV, at a time when there were very few people with cable television. And since Nielsen ratings measure the percentage of households with availability to a program, a 5.6 cable TV rating, at a time with very few cable TV subscribers (using Nielsen research, I'd guesstimate somewhere between 15-20% of all TV viewing audiences), and VERY few cable TV stations, is not an "excellent rating".

It did do excellent ratings. Up until that point, that was the highest rated wrestling show on cable in years. Flair mentioned that on his DVD, it was high back then, and it is high by today's standards. Plus, you said it yourself, not many people had cable, and the homes that DID, the Clash scored big.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

People didn't get up for Wrestlemania 4 to see Savage take on DiBiase and you know it. They knew Hogan was on the card and that's all they needed. The tounament was what they came to see.

And as said before, tournaments NEVER draw well, and the Clash was on free television with the two top guys going at it. I would certainley hope WCW fans would watch Sting Vs FLair for free, rather than a 4 round tournament they had to pay for. And yet, WM 4 still outsold WM 3. Hm

 

[Skullz Crack'Em]

I picked Ric Flair for my favorite. Hulk Hogan never appealed to me, I know he has done a lot for professional wrestling, I am not denying that, but I think Flair is more entertaining for my taste. People can bring as many facts into this as much as they want, but this whole thread is based on who is everybody's favorite, Hogan might have done this or that, but some people don't find him amusing, myself included. If I had to choose between watching only Ric Flair matches or Hulk Hogan matches, I will pick Ric Flair hands down. It is not about who is better in the ring, or who sold more tickets, it is all about personal preference.

 

[DMan23]

if the question is who had the biggest impact, then commercially, very few people get close to Hogan. However, impact doesnt mean just commercially. Interms of influence on todays wrestlers, i think Ric Flair would win hands down. Hes the true professional, Hogan thinks hes bigger than wrestling and that doesnt set the best example.
I cannot really remember Hulk Hogans last match, im thinking against Shawn Micahels, but cannot be 100% sure. Everyone remembers Ric Flairs, an emotional time for all and you can see what wrestling truly meant to Ric, you don't get that same vibe with Hogan. So for me, in overall impact, it has to be Ric Flair because of what hes gave back through other wrestler and through himself.

No Hogan doesn't think he's bigger than the sport, he IS bigger than the sport. Ric Flair himself has said that on more than on occasion. Did you watch Hogan's Hall of Fame induction speech? You might get an idea of how much wrestling meant to him.

As Slyfox, and I'm sure I have myself somewhere in this thread, have said, wrestling wouldn't be what it is today if not for Hulk Hogan. I think that speaks for itself on who had more of an overall impact.

 

[KoolKade]

And as said before, tournaments NEVER draw well, and the Clash was on free television with the two top guys going at it. I would certainley hope WCW fans would watch Sting Vs FLair for free, rather than a 4 round tournament they had to pay for. And yet, WM 4 still outsold WM 3. Hm

Yeah, but the point I was making, someone earlier posted that the WCW didn't have enough confidence to go head to head with the WWE without Hogan, and that's what they did. They did very well in ratings at the first Clash with Flair headlining vs. a not-yet popular Sting.

 

[Slyfox696]

It did do excellent ratings. Up until that point, that was the highest rated wrestling show on cable in years. Flair mentioned that on his DVD, it was high back then, and it is high by today's standards. Plus, you said it yourself, not many people had cable, and the homes that DID, the Clash scored big.

Yes, but I also said that there weren't many cable television stations either.

Let's put it this way. Let's say there are 100 cable television stations these days. Doing a 5.6 rating is probably close to 9 million viewers I would guess, just doing rough math (a 3.5 rating is approximately 5.5 million). In 1988, a 5.6 rating would be from 20 cable television stations and was probably more in the 3 million people range. Keep in mind, those are just guesstimates, but they probably aren't all that far off. That would mean that approx. 57 million possible TV viewers did not watch the Clash, electing instead to watch one of the other 19 stations, or watch nothing.

Let's compare that 5.6 cable rating 10.0 Network TV rating that SNME drew in March 1988. And, as has already been pointed out, Network TV rating reflects many more viewers than cable. For example, right now a 3.5 cable rating is roughly approximate to a 2.8 or 2.9 network ratings.


So, point being, that a 5.6 cable rating didn't really hurt Mania buyrates that much.

Yeah, but the point I was making, someone earlier posted that the WCW didn't have enough confidence to go head to head with the WWE without Hogan, and that's what they did. They did very well in ratings at the first Clash with Flair headlining vs. a not-yet popular Sting.

So, going head to head with a free show vs. a PPV show, on one night only, is showing confidence?

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Yes, but I also said that there weren't many cable television stations either.

Let's put it this way. Let's say there are 100 cable television stations these days. Doing a 5.6 rating is probably close to 9 million viewers I would guess, just doing rough math (a 3.5 rating is approximately 5.5 million). In 1988, a 5.6 rating would be from 20 cable television stations and was probably more in the 3 million people range. Keep in mind, those are just guesstimates, but they probably aren't all that far off. That would mean that approx. 57 million possible TV viewers did not watch the Clash, electing instead to watch one of the other 19 stations, or watch nothing.

Let's compare that 5.6 cable rating 10.0 Network TV rating that SNME drew in March 1988. And, as has already been pointed out, Network TV rating reflects many more viewers than cable. For example, right now a 3.5 cable rating is roughly approximate to a 2.8 or 2.9 network ratings.


So, point being, that a 5.6 cable rating didn't really hurt Mania buyrates that much.


So, going head to head with a free show vs. a PPV show, on one night only, is showing confidence?

Sly, I can't help but think you are treading water here. The underlying point is that enough people at that time felt they could get quality wrestling programming by watching the free WCW COTC show and not have to buy the WWF show. That COTC show essentially launched Sting's career, and he was an important part of WCW hanging around UNTIL Hogan arrived. Even if your rough math IS accurate, and I am willing to accept that it is, a 5.6 cable rating is still not too shabby when going against Wrestlemania 6!

 

[Slyfox696]

Sly, I can't help but think you are treading water here. The underlying point is that enough people at that time felt they could get quality wrestling programming by watching the free WCW COTC show and not have to buy the WWF show. That COTC show essentially launched Sting's career, and he was an important part of WCW hanging around UNTIL Hogan arrived. Even if your rough math IS accurate, and I am willing to accept that it is, a 5.6 cable rating is still not too shabby when going against Wrestlemania 6!

It was Wrestlemania 4 I believe we were talking about, and the point I'm making is that WCW didn't steal a bunch of money from McMahon. That was where the whole conversation started in the first place. Someone said the Clash stole millions from Vince, and it's just simply not true.

That's all I'm pointing out.

 

[Slim Pickns]

It was Wrestlemania 4 I believe we were talking about, and the point I'm making is that WCW didn't steal a bunch of money from McMahon. That was where the whole conversation started in the first place. Someone said the Clash stole millions from Vince, and it's just simply not true.

That's all I'm pointing out.

Actually, it was the more absurd statement of Ric Flair stole money from Wrestlemania that started this.

Ric Flair wrestling on free TV head to head with Wrestlemania proves nothing. The x factors have already been pointed out. It was free TV vs PPV, and Wrestlemania had been promoted as a tournament and not a true main event.

Skullz has the right argument for Flair fans. He said he personally finds Flair better, which no one can argue with. Flair fans cannot argue drawing power. Those who are look foolish. You are using one example (Clash of the Champions) of a free program against Wrestlemania which is a PPV. On top of that, you can't even say it outdrew Wrestlemania, you can only say it took money away from Wrestlemania by airing at the same time. Hell, the Wonder Years could have aired in that slot and I could make that argument. Are you gonna say Fred Savage outdraws Hogan? That whole argument is based simply on the fact that WCW put a TV show on at the same time as Wrestlemania, thats it.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Yes, I meantto say 4, Sly, thank you for correcting that. I know where you are coming from.

To be honest, I don't think WWF was nearly AS concerned about losing MONEY as they were to the very prospect of losing fans. But as we saw, that wasn't the case at all.

Slim great points on your part, I agree almost entirely with your post.