Overrated or Underrated - The Ultimate Warrior
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TheOneBigWill
[This Space for Rent]
Okay, but explain to me HOW you see the Ultimate Warrior as being "great"?
He wasn't exactly like Hulk Hogan, he wasn't even on the same level. And just because he beat Hogan doesn't make him even remotely close to him. If it does, then I guess Billy Kidman would be unbelieveable.
Warrior's gimmick sold, thats it. A gimmick is what it is, the person playing it does have some weight.. but overall, a gimmick can be used by anyone & likely played out the same.
Bad example. I was actually trying to state that Benjamin has tons of talent, but NO gimmick, therefore, he has no selling ability, because you need gimmick more than talent. (dispite that being wrong)
Slim Pickns
Has Been Drafted To RAW
Its easy to look back after someone's career and try to state what could have been better. I still think the Warrior, even after the DVD, was a great pro wrestler.
I guess the only real problem I have with your argument Will is that you are saying that anyone else with wrestling ability could have sold that gimmick better. This only shows me how well Warrior sold his gimmick, because he made it look easy.
What about Hogan? Are you going to say that anyone could march to the ring waving the flag and be play the American Hero? I think the Luger argument points out that not anyone can pull off a gimmick.
I guess the only real problem I have with your argument Will is that you are saying that anyone else with wrestling ability could have sold that gimmick better. This only shows me how well Warrior sold his gimmick, because he made it look easy.
What about Hogan? Are you going to say that anyone could march to the ring waving the flag and be play the American Hero? I think the Luger argument points out that not anyone can pull off a gimmick.
TheOneBigWill
[This Space for Rent]
And thats the great debate, in itself. No, not "anyone" can sell a gimmick.. & at the same time, yes, thats my debate with Warrior. Because Sly is (to me) building him as being this big, powerful face, that was only under Hulk Hogan.
To me, The Warrior sold the gimmick he played, only because in real life he was just as crazy. But in all honesty, I think Sting could've easily sold the very same gimmick. Not anyone outside of those two.. but just Sting.
It wouldn't of been the same, because I can NOT see Sting running to the ring, or shaking the ropes & talking jibberish.. but I can see Sting replacing the Ultimate Warrior as a talented Superstar, with charisma.
All in all, I'm willing to say The Ultimate Warrior is & will remain the ONLY person capable of being what he was.. as long as Sly agrees that Warrior was not the greatest thing. (under Hogan) Because thats why I started this arguement. I don't see Warrior, talented talker, crappy wrestler, as anything great.. other than a time filler. Whereas, to me, Sly is building Warrior up as the best thing under Hulk Hogan.. over those like Ric Flair, Randy Savage, even Andre the Giant.
I already did. Look above.
In a nutshell, he knew how to work a crowd, displayed great psychology and displayed the ability to sell a story in the ring.
Two completely different things, from when Warrior beat Hogan to when Kidman did.
And, no, he wasn't on Hogan's level. But, then again, there has never been anyone who has been.
Really?
How about that guy Renegade from WCW? I mean, it was the same gimmick. And, if the gimmick can be used by anyone and play out the same, how come nobody gave a damn about Renegade?
Whoa, timeout.
I never said anything like that. I'm saying the guy is completely underrated, and is one of the best professional wrestlers of all time. Never have I placed him anywhere in a hierarchy of professional wrestlers.
My position is that he was great. Proof that he was great is that he could go 50/50 with Hogan in his prime. Not something many people can say.
Slim Pickns
Has Been Drafted To RAW
Again, your saying he pulled his gimmick off in a way only he could. I think thats a good thing and not a bad thing.
You can call his gimmick whatever you want, but the fans reacted to it in a huge way, he got way over, and the WWF decided to give him a World Title. I'm not saying Sting couldn't do the same, I'm just saying Warrior did.
TheOneBigWill
[This Space for Rent]
I LOVED RENEGADE! lol Seriously, I thought they screwed him over, because they didn't build him worth a crap.. but I loved that gimmick, even more so than the actual Ultimate Warrior one.
Yes, but few people did. And, according to you, anyone could have taken the gimmick and been successful.
So, why was Renegade not the next huge draw in the wrestling business?
TheOneBigWill
[This Space for Rent]
Actually, I restated what I felt, which was a select few, or more namely, only Sting.. could've taken that gimmick & made it work better.
But regarding Renegade, the reason his gimmick never panned out, was the same reason why a lot of rip-off gimmicks never pan out. Because everyone will always side it with the original, & regardless of if the newer version is better or worse.. the original was & will always win out, because it was the first.
That being said, Renegade wasn't Warrior.. & yeah, to me, W.C.W. tried making him exactly that & failed. But not because Renegade sucked, so much more than W.C.W.'s creative writing team & their production of the Renegade character sucked.
Its kinda the opposite of me saying Warrior made it big, because creative built him that way. The person playing the role has to make something happen, to sell the gimmick. Warrior sold his gimmick, I'll never unintentionally argue THAT fact. Renegade didn't sell his as high.. but instead sold it to the best of his own ability. (much like Chris Masters sold his gimmick compared to Lex Luger)
Really? Then how do you explain The Windowmaker/Undertaker? Or how about Road Warriors/Demolition?
The Windowmaker was the preliminary to what became the Undertaker. And yet, Mark Caloway made it much bigger than Barry Windham.
I don't understand your position, could you re-state it for me?
Basically, what I've gotten is that Warrior wasn't good and it was only the gimmick and the face push that got him over, and the only reason Luger didn't make it is despite the same face push is because he wasn't a TRUE American and the only reason Renegade didn't make it, despite the same gimmick, is because of creative and the fact that rip-off gimmicks don't do as well as the original, despite what Demolition and The Undertaker would tell you. And, talent had absolutely nothing to do with any of it.
Am I getting your argument right?
TheOneBigWill
[This Space for Rent]
Wait, are you saying Demolition was/are better than the Road Warriors? No, that sir, I will greatly disagree with. (if its the other way around, then yes, I agree - the Road Warriors are far better than Demolition)
And I don't know the character Barry Windham played, so I couldn't compare the two.
My basic arguement is this..
Warrior sold off of W.W.F.'s incredible push of him as a face. The fans bought into it, because of the hype W.W.F. put around him.. & the only thing (through my eyes) that Warrior did, to contribute, was add the charisma. It had nothing to due with the talent (or lack there of) that he carried inside the ring. He sold himself, purely & only off the out-landish character. Which made him huge. But with that, it makes him a great ACTOR.. not a great WRESTLER.
Renegade never sold as big, because of two reasons.
1. W.C.W. didn't push him, like W.W.F. pushed Warrior.
2. Renegade didn't believe in his character the way Warrior believed in his.
Lex Luger never sold as big, as Hogan, for two reasons.
1. Luger doesn't have the talent, in or out of the ring that Hogan has. (even though I'm not a Hogan fan, & I like Luger.. I'll admit that)
2. Luger was a "narcissist" before he was an "american hero" & people don't forget that. Just like Randy Orton was a cocky prick, before he was a fan favorite.. thus, Orton never made a good face, because he couldn't escape being a great heel.
Does that explain things better?
You said rip-off gimmicks don't pan out.
I think Demolition panned out quite nicely.
And, Barry Windham played The Widowmaker. It's widely understood that The Widowmaker was expected to be as successful as The Undertaker gimmick. Only after Windham failed to catch on, did the rip-off gimmick come into play. And, I think Undertaker has done quite nicely.
And, you actually think that's a more reasonable explanation than The Ultimate Warrior was just a talented professional wrestler?
And, what do you mean, WCW didn't push him like the WWF pushed Warrior? They pushed Renegade HARDER than the WWF originally pushed Warrior.
No, because we're not talking about Hogan, we're talking about Warrior.
And, Hogan was the ultimate babyface before becoming the ultimate heel. Ric Flair was the master heel for decades and is now a super face. Mr. Perfect was more egocentric than Luger was, and did it before Luger, and yet, fans cheered him as a face.
I'm sorry, there are just too many holes in your theory. Too many "ifs", "ands" and "buts" in your argument, too many sets of conditions. I mean, the next thing you are going to tell me is that Warrior was only popular because he was born the very night the moon and the stars were aligned in unison, and his mother had a 4 leaf clover in her pocket when she gave birth to him.
And yet, I can say that The Ultimate Warrior was a good professional wrestler, and it covers everything. Why was Warrior so popular? Because he was good. How come his gimmick worked and Renegades didn't? Because he was good. How come Luger received BETTER booking than Warrior, and couldn't touch Warrior's level of overness? Because Warrior was good (although, Lex Luger is terribly underrated as well). Why did millions of people all around the word, stand up and roar in unison at the opening guitar rifts of Warrior's song? Because Warrior was good, and they knew they were in for a treat.
See how much easier it is to explain everything, rather than making conditional statements, backed by luck, moon alignment and lucky rabbit's feet?
TheOneBigWill
[This Space for Rent]
I don't believe W.C.W. pushed Renegade as hard as W.W.F. pushed Warrior. I don't recall Renegade receiving any Heavyweight Championship matches. Instead, I recall him being Hogan's lackie almost his entire stint.
Warrior was built solo. Renegade was brought in, by Jimmy Hart, to be under Hogan.
I'm sure Warrior would believe that. lol
Great marketing mixed with nicely done creative ideas, & a character's gimmick that was never done before so roughly put could pan out to be anything. -- The fans loved what they were told to love. Build the hype, Believe the hype, Love the hype.
Poor creative on W.C.W.'s part, never solidly pushing him as a Main Eventer, & the person carrying the gimmick simply didn't have the charisma that Warrior had.
It was a catchy theme song. I loved it, you loved it, millions loved it. I fail to see how that theme song makes Warrior great. lol
You have ripped into everything I've said all day. I feel abused, & torn. lol But you strike great debate & you obviously know your stuff. I can't argue with you, but I'll forever hold to my own opinions. lol
Shadowmancer
I am The Last Baron
I believe there is a Middle ground but Sly's view on warrior is Overrating him while Will's View is underrating him. In terms of his ability to push Merch Warrior was at the Time Second only to Hogan, However that would be as a result of the push that the WWF gave him, this is to say that if you push the Hell out of Charlie Haas (Charlie Haas pop reasoning) With Merch to sell In theory Charlie Haas would be a great Wrestler, You can't be a great Wrestler if you aren't pushed. So You need the Push from the company in the first place, second of all What Will said is true a Gimmick will always outsell a Plain wrestler despite how good a Wrestler the plain guy is in the Ring. Do not Bring Benoit in he had a Gimmick that gave fans something to be able to harness. Warrior has a combination of two things an Ability to belive his own hype, which is probably the base reason he was fired, This would be helpful for Warrior because it would allow it to come through on Screen or in the ring, the second thing he had was a Bloody huge push I think in one of his first few matches he beat the then current IC champ Honky Tonk Man, if you don't say that is a huge push then what is as This was back when the IC title was pushed as a very prestigious Title. But at the very Basic level, Helwig did what he was supposed to do Run out Shake the ropes and squash the opponent while No Selling and say totally Inane promos that are so memorable that anyone can create a warrior promo if they wanted to. This is pretty much all he did in the ring, is that not just what he did. Thereby as a Wrestler He is A great Draw in Merch as a In Ring Talent not so Hot. And Personnally Warrior would not be even in the Top 10 Champs of the Pre-Attitude Era stuff. With Hogan, Sammartino, Buddy Rogers, Bob Backlund, Iron Sheik, Savage, HBK, Hart, Slaughter, Billy Graham, Pedro Morales and Antonio Inoki all going infront of Warrior for the Pre attitude Era Wrestlers that held that particular Title.
IrishCanadian25
Going on 10 years with WrestleZone
Here is one thing I'd like to put into context. When The Ultimate Warrior was at the top of his career, it was the era when wrestling was still "real" to some people. The wall of Kayfabe had not yet been broken down by the WWE and WCW. What was then "he's really cool" and "he could kick anyone's ass" is now "He's a really good worker" and "he makes his opponents look good." It is a totally different world now, and to examine The Ultimate Warrior in today's context is a little unfair.
That said, I maintain that more credit should go to the WWE for Helwig's success, not Helwig himself. In the 80's and early 90's, wrestling fandom in the US was largely compiled of the comic book culture. The one surefire way to push a wrestler is to package them as a superhero, which means: larger than life persona, superhuman physque, and no-selling. Helwig took the needle, shook the ropes, no-sold, and played his "Parts Unknown" superhero to a T, at which time the WWE Marketing Machine took over. Good for him!
The Ultimate Warrior was rated correctly. I don't feel he is rated as an all-time great WWF Champion, nor should he be. He won a match with Hulk Hogan that is correctly rated as a classic. He won a match with Randy Savage that is correctly rated a classic. He also lost a forgettable match to Sergeant Slaughter and a crappy match to Rick Rude. His WWF career ended with a quiet whisper, totally unlike the career he enjoyed.
That said, I maintain that more credit should go to the WWE for Helwig's success, not Helwig himself. In the 80's and early 90's, wrestling fandom in the US was largely compiled of the comic book culture. The one surefire way to push a wrestler is to package them as a superhero, which means: larger than life persona, superhuman physque, and no-selling. Helwig took the needle, shook the ropes, no-sold, and played his "Parts Unknown" superhero to a T, at which time the WWE Marketing Machine took over. Good for him!
The Ultimate Warrior was rated correctly. I don't feel he is rated as an all-time great WWF Champion, nor should he be. He won a match with Hulk Hogan that is correctly rated as a classic. He won a match with Randy Savage that is correctly rated a classic. He also lost a forgettable match to Sergeant Slaughter and a crappy match to Rick Rude. His WWF career ended with a quiet whisper, totally unlike the career he enjoyed.
That's a great point and shouldn't be overlooked. Wrestlers should be judged in the context of their era just like any athlete in any sport...not that wrestling is a sport (it's not), but it's simliar in that different eras are completely different. Just like you can't compare Otto Graham's stats to Tom Brady's, you can't compare Ultimate Warrior's wrestling ability to Kurt Angle's...Ultimate Warrior might not be successful today, but a lot of today's top wrestlers wouldn't do anyhing in that era either.
Perhaps, but IMO you could say that about any successful wrestler, they all need to be put in the right situation with the right gimmick at the right time to be successful.
I saw earlier a comparison of why Lex Luger didn't get as over. You can't compare WWF 1993 to WWF 1990. In 1990 the WWF was still riding an incredible wave of momentum from the decade before. By the time 1993 came around, us Saturday Morning Kids grew up, and a big chunk of us became teenagers and wrestling was no longer cool. Make no mistake, Luger was still over in the WWF, but the WWF's fan base had decreased largely in that 3 years from WM 6 to the Summer after WM 9.
The Warrior is just a one dimensional character. He was there to attract younger kids. It had been 6 years since Hogan became a megastar, so alot of us younger fans were starting to get older. Warrior attracted a lot of younger kids that wanted a one dimensional character. People like to bash Hogan, but at least Hogan had depth to his character, and moral fiber. Warrior was just a cool guy in face paint that shook the ropes. That's why the Warrior didn't stand the test of time like Hogan did. People grew up, and ond dimensional characters became stale.
The Warrior is just a one dimensional character. He was there to attract younger kids. It had been 6 years since Hogan became a megastar, so alot of us younger fans were starting to get older. Warrior attracted a lot of younger kids that wanted a one dimensional character. People like to bash Hogan, but at least Hogan had depth to his character, and moral fiber. Warrior was just a cool guy in face paint that shook the ropes. That's why the Warrior didn't stand the test of time like Hogan did. People grew up, and ond dimensional characters became stale.
bangsurluna
Dark Match Jobber
One of the most underrated wrestlers ever!
Ever since The crap of a DVD Self Destruction of The Ultimate Warrior Warrior bashings have been at an all time high. People have the bought all the crap Vince says. Lets look at some of the most common Warrior bashings Warrior cant wrestle or Warrior sucked at promos
Well Warrior sure as hell isnt Dean Malenko. But Warrior wasnt suppose to be a good wrestler. His gimmick was never intented for a Scientific wrestling. He was a mysterious wrestler who would destroy his opponents. Imagine him locking someone in a sharp shooter? What the Hell? So overall Warriors in ring abilities match his gimmick.
And for Warriors Promos. Sure he wasnt The Rock, but again look at his gimmick. It fitted him perfectly. And overall what is the point of a promo? Getting crowd reaction. And Warrior sure as hell got that. No matter what he said. And as for Vinces questioning his ability for promos. Well Vince, if they were so bad, then why did you make him cut a promo every show?
The whole DVD was one sided and a complete burial. WWE used Warrior as in example towards Bret Hart. WWE pretty much forced Bret to help with the DVD or face the consequence that Warrior got.
So Warrior isnt a wrestler, he is an entertainer. This man did what no ONE could do. Surpass Hulk Hogan in popularity. And it only took him 2-3 years to surpass him.
Ever since The crap of a DVD Self Destruction of The Ultimate Warrior Warrior bashings have been at an all time high. People have the bought all the crap Vince says. Lets look at some of the most common Warrior bashings Warrior cant wrestle or Warrior sucked at promos
Well Warrior sure as hell isnt Dean Malenko. But Warrior wasnt suppose to be a good wrestler. His gimmick was never intented for a Scientific wrestling. He was a mysterious wrestler who would destroy his opponents. Imagine him locking someone in a sharp shooter? What the Hell? So overall Warriors in ring abilities match his gimmick.
And for Warriors Promos. Sure he wasnt The Rock, but again look at his gimmick. It fitted him perfectly. And overall what is the point of a promo? Getting crowd reaction. And Warrior sure as hell got that. No matter what he said. And as for Vinces questioning his ability for promos. Well Vince, if they were so bad, then why did you make him cut a promo every show?
The whole DVD was one sided and a complete burial. WWE used Warrior as in example towards Bret Hart. WWE pretty much forced Bret to help with the DVD or face the consequence that Warrior got.
So Warrior isnt a wrestler, he is an entertainer. This man did what no ONE could do. Surpass Hulk Hogan in popularity. And it only took him 2-3 years to surpass him.
BigDaddyKewl
Getting Noticed By Management
I think that he is underated he hasnt been given his due. As mentioned he reached a level that many wrestlers only dream of. He was a top draw when the wrestling buisiness was at all time high. Its a shame to see him leave the wrestling buisiness like he did, I mean his last couple matches against Jerry Lawler and Hollywod Hogan were real stinkers. Id like to see him inducted in the Hall of Fame and maybe have another DVD with more of his interviews and matches. But even if he is never inducted in he HOF he still remains the only man to hold the IC title and WWF title similtaniously.
Why is it that people associate the Birth of Warrior Bashing with the Date of the Release of the Self Destruction video?
Warrior Bashing has gone on long before hand. The guy couldn't cut it. He had one good two year run, and after his initial run, he lost his spark. The guy wasn't ready for primetime when he was on Monday Night's, and hell, even Eric Bischoff didn't think too highly of him. He had Warrior/Hogan II, and Bischoff Booking didn't even have that in the main event of Halloween Havoc. It's pretty bad when Bischoff recognizes how bad someone is.
The guy had a good two year run, and had two good matches Wrestlemania, but like I said before, tell me who didn't have good matches with Hogan or Savage at Wrestlemania that isn't named George Steele.
Warrior Bashing has gone on long before hand. The guy couldn't cut it. He had one good two year run, and after his initial run, he lost his spark. The guy wasn't ready for primetime when he was on Monday Night's, and hell, even Eric Bischoff didn't think too highly of him. He had Warrior/Hogan II, and Bischoff Booking didn't even have that in the main event of Halloween Havoc. It's pretty bad when Bischoff recognizes how bad someone is.
The guy had a good two year run, and had two good matches Wrestlemania, but like I said before, tell me who didn't have good matches with Hogan or Savage at Wrestlemania that isn't named George Steele.
bangsurluna
Dark Match Jobber
Warrior bashing were around, but they went higher after the DVD. And your saying Eric Bischoff knew talent? Please, this a guy who pushed the same untalented guys years in years out. Yet he kept talent below all these has beens. Hell, he didn't even push Ric Flair. Though I wouldn't completly blame Bischoff, there was a lot of politics. And just because your not in the main event then your not good? BS! Nothing wrong with that, espacially when the main event was Goldberg vs. DDP. An awesome feud and an awesome match.
The guy was definitely not good in the ring ... and obviously did not have a clue what was going on in half of his promos ... BUT, Warrior was at the top because of some OVERWHELMING charisma. I would say, for non-wrestling fans that don't know he was a flash in the pan, he is overrated. But in the "know" fans don't tend to speak highly of him at all ... which probably leaves him slightly underrated.
Ultimate Warrior vs. Hulk Hogan is one of the ten most-hyped and anticipated matches in the history of wrestling. It got people who did not really watch to watch ... and was the only major loss for Hogan previous to leaving for WCW. Hell, Hogan was at the top of his game, and he and Vince still agreed to put Warrior over.
He is rated pretty evenly in my book. A deserved champ who brought ratings, but who had an unfortunate lack of work ethic and self control that destroyed any chance of a long, multiple World Titles career.
Ultimate Warrior vs. Hulk Hogan is one of the ten most-hyped and anticipated matches in the history of wrestling. It got people who did not really watch to watch ... and was the only major loss for Hogan previous to leaving for WCW. Hell, Hogan was at the top of his game, and he and Vince still agreed to put Warrior over.
He is rated pretty evenly in my book. A deserved champ who brought ratings, but who had an unfortunate lack of work ethic and self control that destroyed any chance of a long, multiple World Titles career.
Freedom 35
Kyle Orton Legend Killer
this sound about right to me. The man was from a wrestling standpoint terrible, but in this buisness we call professional wrestling you can get away with being terrible by having other good traits. Warrior was a man who had alot of charisma and was way over with a crowd, sure his promos werent very good and in the ring he wasnt much better either but he had the ability to do something that many wrestlers lack, he had the ability to draw fans to the arena and bring viewers to the TV. The man was way over and was big money for Vince, long story short Warrior was ENTERTAINING and in world wrestling ENTERTAINMENT thats all it takes therefore while he could be considered overrated for his lack of talent he can be considered underrated for his drawing ability, so IMO hes rated where he should be
Well, it depends. I think he was rated about right, at least in the eyes of true fans.
I was a Warrior fan, even though I was young then and a bit of a mark. I thought he brought a lot of intensity and excitement, even though he was not that great a wrestler.
And, he was, yes, was the best interview of the times. Now, a lot of people will say that no one knew WTF he was talking about, but that's my point! Talking about stars and the sky and parts unknown, and eating his opponent's flesh and shit. I thought he was cool.
Best angles were the ones with Jake Roberts and Papa Shango, AKA Godfather. LOL!
Anyhow, I think there will always be two sides to this. I think, even though he had his faults, he was cool, and it's a shame he has broken so many ties with the wrestling business.
I was a Warrior fan, even though I was young then and a bit of a mark. I thought he brought a lot of intensity and excitement, even though he was not that great a wrestler.
And, he was, yes, was the best interview of the times. Now, a lot of people will say that no one knew WTF he was talking about, but that's my point! Talking about stars and the sky and parts unknown, and eating his opponent's flesh and shit. I thought he was cool.
Best angles were the ones with Jake Roberts and Papa Shango, AKA Godfather. LOL!
Anyhow, I think there will always be two sides to this. I think, even though he had his faults, he was cool, and it's a shame he has broken so many ties with the wrestling business.
