[Official] Disco Nation

[Marty2Hotty]

We're talking about creating stars. I'm talking about the way Austin and Rock the way they were being created.

Anyone can fall off a cell - but it's what happens to them on a weekly basis afterwards that keeps them "over". Skipper did a crazy move at TNA on top of the cell, but he wasn't written to do anything else for years

nWo got over from the "moment" hogan turned. It wasn't a great wrestling match. It is also what these guys did on a weekly basis that kept people interested

 

[MisterRob]

Anyone can fall off a cell - but it's what happens to them on a weekly basis afterwards that keeps them "over". Skipper did a crazy move at TNA on top of the cell, but he wasn't written to do anything else for years

You're right, anyone can fall off a cell. But not anyone can make it mean something. No one cared about Skipper because all he did was a flashy, crazy move, but he had no character. He had no depth to him. Mick Foley got over, and people cared about Foley, because he became HIMSELF. That's, in so many ways and so many examples, how anyone becomes huge. They don't play a character, they play themselves and turn up the volume. Mick Foley's "Mankind" interview with Jim Ross is a key example of when people started caring about Foley and getting into him, and that was ALL Foley. That wasn't writing make believe stories, that was Foley's gift at promos using real life events and history.

Steve Austin became big when he was allowed to be HIMSELF. He didn't connect with the Ringmaster character, and so the fans couldn't connect with it either. Its the same way with the Rock; he couldn't connect with the Rocky Maiva character because it wasn't him, and the moment both of these guys were allowed to be themselves and push forward with characters they could be confident with, because it was themselves coming through, they shot to the moon.

Do you think AJ Styles would be the same? I don't. Because I really don't think the REAL AJ Styles is interesting or entertaining. AJ Styles got over on his phenomenal wrestling, not storylines or gimmicks or writing, and thats the only way AJ Styles is really going to get over. I think they should keep going with the direction they are with Samoa Joe right now, because I think it might be a good direction that finally has potential.

To say it wasn't the wrestling that helped build the above names to stardom is asinine, though. Yes, they had great storylines, great skits, great promos, etc, etc... but just as much as all of that they're remembered for their great feuds and the great matches they had. Austin won the King of the Ring and it was the story within those matches that led up to him winning and then making a speech that changed Austin forever and the landscape of the WWF. Without the wrestling it wouldn't have gone anywhere. The I Quit match between Hart and Austin cemented Austin as the new face of the WWF, if that match hadn't happened neither would everything that came from it. Austin and the Rock are known for their classic matches, Foley is known for his classic matches with the Undertaker and the Rock. It's as simple as that.

 

[Marty2Hotty]

Austin wasn't "himself". He played the part of the badass and did it well. Foley is not a guy with split personalities. He played a character that was written well and he did it well.

Same with Rock. He was a dork before hand with no personality. He was given a character and weekly antics and in time, he became more confident and played his character INCREDIBLY well

AJ Styles was HILARIOUS during the time when Angle and Christian were fighting for him. It hink he was getting over huge as this comedic character (Foley started doing a lot of comedy as well)..

AJ Styles is not a house hold name like those guys. He needs something to get him over. I think he OR joe can really get over. but they need to do something on a weekly basis that was as interesting as the nWo, Austin, Rock, Foley taht got them significantly over. YOu're not ognna get over by wrestling 20 minute matches and cutting generic predictable promos. Austin, Rock, Foley didn't get over doing that shit

yeah, joe and AJ can already perform in the ring. It's the "other" piece of the puzzle that is holding them from being as great as a rock and austin. Rock adn Austin were also part of a product that went from 2.0 rating to 6.5 within a couple of years.

If you look at the Best of Raw moments voted in 2003, most of the stuff came from the Russo Attitude era that Rock/Austin did. Now, Im' not saying to replicate that stuff. I'm saying that if you want TNA to build stars, you need these guys to really start doing stuff and saying stuff (catchphrases) on a WEEKLY Basis that will get the fans popping for them.

Goldberg got ppl popping. You're not going to get a "super fanbase" to the magnitude of the nWo, Austin, Rock, by doing wrestling no matter how great you are. Hogan was an example of that.. he just knew how to pop the crowd.

I think they need to concentrate on doing a great episodic television show that lures the viewer in and keeps them at teh edge of their seat due to the unpredictability and exciting action. make the characters get really over by giving them something crazy and awesome to do.say every week

Sam elike shiek abdul bashir. he started with these controversial vignettes. Now he just comes out and wrestles. He occasionally does a sit down with Tenay. But people dont remember/ and dont care if he doesn't keep up with his gimmick/character on a weekly basis

that's the pure difference between the quality of the original nWo and teh attitude era that splits that time vs the current TNA/WWE shows

 

[klunderbunker]

Yet again, you don't get it. Rocky Maivia and the Ringmaster were characters that the two of them were given. That's why they both failed: they were trying to be something completely opposite from waht they really were. AJ Styles was made to look like an idiot during that time and the reason it was dropped was because people realized that he was capable of amazing things in the ring and was being wasted in the dumb comedy angles. Sure you can get over doing what Joe and AJ are doing. The dumb gimmicks and storys are what's killing them. When Joe first got to TNA, he was insanely over because it was all just him dominating. Didn't need a gimmick.

 

[gg inferno]

the bottom line is that aj and joe aren't near as good as those guys, and never will be. nobody will. if someone does comes along, then maybe the business might pick up.

 

[paulsoprano]

the bottom line is that aj and joe aren't near as good as those guys, and never will be. nobody will. if someone does comes along, then maybe the business might pick up.

I haven't disagreed with you too much, Glenn. However, I think those guys could be huge. They have IT.

The problem with TNA, and I write this as a TNA fan, is their stunning inability to make anything or anyone seem important on a consistent basis. There are moments here, moments there, but nothing matters in the larger picture.

So, while we could back-and-forth about the merits of AJ and Joe (and that's really just a matter of preference anyway), the most troubling aspect of TNA's current presentation for me is the fact they have rendered proven stars like Sting, Booker, Angle, Foley, Steiner and Nash as just regular guys. This is a combination of poor booking and weak marketing.

I'm no WWE fan, but they know how to market their stars. They know how to create moments. Sting is a true legend and a wrestling star in every conceivable way. In TNA, however, he means next to nothing. That's Sting, by the way! How could this be? In WWE, Sting would mean something. THIS is TNA's Achilles Heel and, until they find a way to resolve it, they will not break out of maximum ratings of 1.2 and allegedly awful buyrates.

 

[Audioslave]

the bottom line is that aj and joe aren't near as good as those guys, and never will be. nobody will. if someone does comes along, then maybe the business might pick up.

No, you really aren't getting the point.

Someone coming along with that "it" attribute isn't going to magically turn around the business. It takes work from BOTH the performer AND the people running the show. I mean, there's three absolutely important things... well they're actually steps, but they're three things that HAVE TO HAPPEN.

1) Someone has to notice the athlete has that attribute.
2) Someone has to find a way to harness the guy in a way that makes his potential most efficiently.
3) Then, THEN. They have to follow THROUGH on it.

Joe definitely has charisma and presence, AJ has a quality that makes him stand out in TNA as someone people have wanted pushed, Ron Killings had the look, charisma and was an exciting dude in the ring. Yet all three of them have been (or were, in Killing's case) bogged down by shitty booking in TNA. No one really followed through on any of them. Lets not forget Monty Brown as well. He had "it", but TNA fumbled him too.

As it is, TNA is really good at taking something that should be an asset, sure thing, or whatever and wasting it. Be it Joe, the X-Division in general, Killings, Styles, Monty, Christian Cage, Angle. None of them were as effective as they should have been and it's the fault of the bookers/writers and their inability to do anything that's not stupid.

Maybe if the same scrutiny that's given to the performers were given to the people that do the television program, then wrestling wouldn't be in as bad a shape and things would change for the better. As far as TNA is concerned, they'll only turn around their own business when someone who isn't an idiot is put in charge of TNA, it's creative department and turns them into actual competition to Vince & the WWE. Right now they're not and they never will be if they continue along as they have been the past five years.

 

[MisterRob]

Austin wasn't "himself". He played the part of the badass and did it well. Foley is not a guy with split personalities. He played a character that was written well and he did it well.

Same with Rock. He was a dork before hand with no personality. He was given a character and weekly antics and in time, he became more confident and played his character INCREDIBLY well.

You're CLUELESS if you actually think Austin's, the Rock's, and Mick Foley's "characters" during the Attitude Era weren't entirely shades of their own personality. Clueless. Mick Foley has even pointed out too many times to count how each one of his Faces of Foley is a part of his personality. Austin's personality is entirely what you see on television; that foul mouted, beer drinken, personae.. and he's even said that, the volume's just turned up FULL. Your problem, much as it is with your view of Russo, is that you only see what you WANT to see and you ignore everything else. Those stars got over because, sure, the writing was good, but far more because they were channeling their own personalities and allowed to be creative with themselves instead of being tossed a character that they had no way of relating to and had no inspiration to play. That's the difference with every major star in the history of the business.

AJ Styles was HILARIOUS during the time when Angle and Christian were fighting for him. It hink he was getting over huge as this comedic character (Foley started doing a lot of comedy as well)..

Personal preference. I thought he was lame.

AJ Styles is not a house hold name like those guys. He needs something to get him over. I think he OR joe can really get over. but they need to do something on a weekly basis that was as interesting as the nWo, Austin, Rock, Foley taht got them significantly over. YOu're not ognna get over by wrestling 20 minute matches and cutting generic predictable promos. Austin, Rock, Foley didn't get over doing that shit.

Those names weren't house hold names either, before they became stars. They were no different the AJ Styles is. Let Styles be himself and see where that takes him, but I really believe you'll find he won't become a huge star because, deep down, he doesn't have that IT factor. He has a lot of great aspects to him, he has charmisma and the crowd feeds off him, and he certainly has phenomenal wrestling, but I don't think (and of course this is just opinion) he has the entire package it takes to be a star at the level of those who lead ERAs.

 

[klunderbunker]

AJ and Joe are fine for what they are. They're the big fish in TNA. Not even John Cena and HHH can replace Rock and Austin. No amount of writing or booking can make a good wrestler great. Aj and Joe will dominate TNA, and that's all they need to do.

 

[gg inferno]

You're CLUELESS if you actually think Austin's, the Rock's, and Mick Foley's "characters" during the Attitude Era weren't entirely shades of their own personality. Clueless. Mick Foley has even pointed out too many times to count how each one of his Faces of Foley is a part of his personality. Austin's personality is entirely what you see on television; that foul mouted, beer drinken, personae.. and he's even said that, the volume's just turned up FULL. Your problem, much as it is with your view of Russo, is that you only see what you WANT to see and you ignore everything else. Those stars got over because, sure, the writing was good, but far more because they were channeling their own personalities and allowed to be creative with themselves instead of being tossed a character that they had no way of relating to and had no inspiration to play. That's the difference with every major star in the history of the business.




Personal preference. I thought he was lame.




Those names weren't house hold names either, before they became stars. They were no different the AJ Styles is. Let Styles be himself and see where that takes him, but I really believe you'll find he won't become a huge star because, deep down, he doesn't have that IT factor. He has a lot of great aspects to him, he has charmisma and the crowd feeds off him, and he certainly has phenomenal wrestling, but I don't think (and of course this is just opinion) he has the entire package it takes to be a star at the level of those who lead ERAs.

you're right. about the best hypothetical you can use is just imagine aj or joe in wwe. where would they be? anyone that thinks they'd be anything above mid card status doesn't really have any clue about what skills you need to draw money. marty is way off base about the rock. in retrospect, the rock was a 10 million dollar a movie actor that lent his talents to the wrestling business. austin was what made pro wrestling must see tv back in the day. aj and joe are basically top guys in a glorified indy promotion that has decent numbers for the network. and what you see from these guys on tv each week is them basically being themselves. i know for a fact that they have stuff written for them to give them tag lines and catch phrases and their response is "my character wouldn't say that." when the reality is that their characters are pretty bland.

slave is correct in that you need other factors besides the IT quality. things need to come together from a writing, booking, talent, production standpoint to make magic. the writing in wwe stinks, and the production quality in tna stinks, compared to wwe. there really isn't anyone in this business today that has what it takes to get the droves back. current ratings provided as evidence. and my point is that as long as UFC stays so strong, that it's going to be difficult to draw fans from that demographic to watch guys fake fight even if someone does come along.

AJ and Joe would be better if all you saw was the dvd's and ppv's. thier lack of other skills are exposed on weekly tv.

 

[Lee]

Out of anyone you'd be the best to help me here Glenn...I was wondering if you could offer your input on this thread; http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=35443

It's me, a none TNA fan, wanting to see what people think are the better matches/feuds as a start point for me to watch.

Your help is greatly appreciated on this.

 

[Audioslave]

you're right. about the best hypothetical you can use is just imagine aj or joe in wwe. where would they be? anyone that thinks they'd be anything above mid card status doesn't really have any clue about what skills you need to draw money. marty is way off base about the rock. in retrospect, the rock was a 10 million dollar a movie actor that lent his talents to the wrestling business. austin was what made pro wrestling must see tv back in the day. aj and joe are basically top guys in a glorified indy promotion that has decent numbers for the network. and what you see from these guys on tv each week is them basically being themselves. i know for a fact that they have stuff written for them to give them tag lines and catch phrases and their response is "my character wouldn't say that." when the reality is that their characters are pretty bland.

slave is correct in that you need other factors besides the IT quality. things need to come together from a writing, booking, talent, production standpoint to make magic. the writing in wwe stinks, and the production quality in tna stinks, compared to wwe. there really isn't anyone in this business today that has what it takes to get the droves back. current ratings provided as evidence. and my point is that as long as UFC stays so strong, that it's going to be difficult to draw fans from that demographic to watch guys fake fight even if someone does come along.

AJ and Joe would be better if all you saw was the dvd's and ppv's. thier lack of other skills are exposed on weekly tv.

I'd think that creative attempting to give THEM catchphrases rather than letting them happen organically is a bad idea. Flair, Austin, Hogan, etc. I'm sure they all came up with their own shit and that's why they were big names. Isn't one of the problems OVERbooking/writing? It takes away that spontaneous, ad-libbing nature away. And yeah, maybe some of them aren't super great on the mic, but I'm betting Austin wasn't earlier in his career and only got better the more he was able to talk.

I've got a question I wanted to run past you, and you seem more frank and open now that you're not employed by TNA (which is understandable, you wouldn't want to be overly critical of your employers while you're working for them. Publically at least).

"there really isn't anyone in this business today that has what it takes to get the droves back."

Would you say that pertains as much to people in creative as it does those in front of the screen?

 

[gg inferno]

I'd think that creative attempting to give THEM catchphrases rather than letting them happen organically is a bad idea. Flair, Austin, Hogan, etc. I'm sure they all came up with their own shit and that's why they were big names. Isn't one of the problems OVERbooking/writing? It takes away that spontaneous, ad-libbing nature away. And yeah, maybe some of them aren't super great on the mic, but I'm betting Austin wasn't earlier in his career and only got better the more he was able to talk.

I've got a question I wanted to run past you, and you seem more frank and open now that you're not employed by TNA (which is understandable, you wouldn't want to be overly critical of your employers while you're working for them. Publically at least).

"there really isn't anyone in this business today that has what it takes to get the droves back."

Would you say that pertains as much to people in creative as it does those in front of the screen?

1) creative has to give them stuff because they (aj and joe) come up with zilch on their own
2) yes it pertains as much to people in creative. russo could do it if he was back working with the wwe machine, but not underneath jeff and dutch.

 

[Marty2Hotty]

So what Glenn? you're comparing two guys: Rock - who once had ZERO charisma as Rocky Maivia. and Steve Austin, who had mid card roles in WCW, and "The Ringmaster" gimmick.

This is until Russo helped create the attitude era and let these guys talk like badasses and in entertaining manners and made them into stars in one of the most exciting/entertaining eras ever.

AJ Styles had a great comedic character | Joe is a serious guy - i think TNA wanted him to be a goldberg-type character. I think if the entire TNA show was written in a way that really caught on with the viewing public, and if AJ and Joe were written in ways that got the fans with them and they did crazy shit every week.. they could even be as popular as Rock/Austin..

Rock improved and became great. Austin when he was Stone Cold - had great segments with McMahon. AJ kinda struggles..

but i think if an entire show is really crazy and popular.. i think there'll be another Rock/Austin.. capabilities..

If someone does come along, you need the great writing to make them into stars as well. I think Ron Killings had a great look and talent.. it's just TNA fucked his career up. It's all about politics and how the show is. Right now, wrestling is still kinda boring.. and not chaotic/spontaneoush enough

---

as for "it", I think Kurt Angle, Kevin Nash, Booker T, and even Scott Steiner are great talents that can do it all. I'd like to see some more from Sting too...

You're CLUELESS if you actually think Austin's, the Rock's, and Mick Foley's "characters" during the Attitude Era weren't entirely shades of their own personality. Clueless.

MisterRob.. yeah, it's a bit of their personality in it.. but it was the era that helped shape them. People can be themselves, but if the bookers dont' know what program or what situations/dialogue to put you in, you will never get over!!! that's the fact. Russo helped bring the personalities out of these guys and helped made them entertaining

You say Let AJ Styles be himself. Who exactly is AJ. According to ppl, he doesnt drink, he's a christian, he has a wife and kid. he may be a hot head at times, and he loves video games. HOw is that exactly a marketable television star

--

i'm not off on the rock. Glenn, you should watch Rock's first few promos after he joined the nation. You tell me if he had the "it" factor then. Or did he grow to become the rock after he was given great stuff to say, great stuff to do.. he was given the opportunity to be in great angles, and he really learnt and grew into his character. his first promos were atrocious.

--

AJ and Joe need better stuff to say. they need better stuff to do. I mean look at thes tuff they did back then. Austin and Rock fighting on a bridge and AUstin falling off. Next week, Rock did a funeral segment and AUstin drove his truck to the ring. It was tons of crazy stuff. Kane and Undertaker - tons of pyrotechnics. everyone had crazy angles. Val Venis, Godfather - controversial angles, characters, and entertainment that pushed the envelope. that helped get the product over and get the top stars over

AJ and Joe may have some talent, and I KNOW AJ has got talent. For him to do that comedy well, and pull it off.. he showed he can do it. TNA just needs to really give them something cool to do and say EVERY week, and better yet, they need to define their product so that it stays exciting every week to the common viewer (which I dont think they're doing).

Once you get your product on track, and you get your characters on track - then you have ap roduct that is capable of really making stars. unlike wwe's forcing ppl down our throats

i think tna is too afraid to do that. so i dont see it happenign. it's just gonna be safe route predictrable stuff for the msot part

as for glenn's UFC statement, i somewhat agree. however because UFC is real, wrestling has got to take themselves less seriously.. wrestling is sports entertainment and we all know it's scripted and we know it's a male soap opera and episodic television

so emphasize it. emphasize the characters. 2 hours a week? it's a great oppportunity to go over the top.. make wrestling crazy, cool, entertaining and the best damn weekly soap opera ever! embrace it!

dont' try to be ufc because you're not real and everyone knows it. everyone that followed the attitude era at the ratings peak knew it was fake, but they enjoyed watching the show every week to see what happens.

use that formula now!

1) creative has to give them stuff because they (aj and joe) come up with zilch on their own
2) yes it pertains as much to people in creative. russo could do it if he was back working with the wwe machine, but not underneath jeff and dutch.

The thing is.. Russo did go back to wwe in 2002. he said it changed a lot. it wasn't just him and mcmahon. wwe wanted him to work in a committee.. and everyone ddin't see his vision.. so they demoted him to a consultant. Russo worked best when he wrote the shwos alone with mcmahon

as for him at tna.. it sucks why Jeff won't let him just write his magic. who the fuck is dutch and why the hell does he have creative input. why in the blue hell isn't jeff letting russo write?

does he honestly believe the bullshit that meltzer, keller and internet critics write about russo. if jeff believes that shit, he shoudlnt' be leading a company. mcmahon was smart enough to not read that shit and let russo write his magic. maybe jeff should do the same.

 

[paulsoprano]

1) creative has to give them stuff because they (aj and joe) come up with zilch on their own
2) yes it pertains as much to people in creative. russo could do it if he was back working with the wwe machine, but not underneath jeff and dutch.

You've confirmed what I have long suspected about TNA: it does not matter who is in creative. As long as Jarrett has final say, the status quo will not change and no new vision will get a chance to shine. Russo and Mantell are a terrible mix.

I know you are friendly with Russo too, so it does not take too heavy an analysis to see that any power Russo had has been severely dented. When he re-joined TNA, talent that he knew well started to get brought onboard (Backlund, Norman Smiley, YOU, Jimmy Rave etc.). However, all of you have been released. The "power struggle" has been evident for some time, which is why TNA has been such a schizophrenic product.

For the record, why do you feel so sure Russo on his own would bolster TNA? What ideas was he bringing to the table and what sort of ideas were being shot down?

 

[gg inferno]

paulsoprano,
the main thing was is that we couldn't do a shot without having to explain why the camera is there. borash or crystal had to be in every vignette. you couldn't do tv. you had to do wrestling. you just can't develop characters the way they need to be because you're restricted with the ridiculous concept, which was outdated 10 years ago, that there needed to be an expalantion why the camera was there.

 

[highly_evolved_03]

Glenn.

You sound like a bit of a pussy. You wouldn't say any of this shit to A.J or Joe's face because they would beat you up, yet you come on a forum and say it because you now work as a stripper.

 

[Hacksaw Highway]

highly_evolved_03.

You sound like a bit of a pussy. You wouldn't say any of this shit to Disco's face because he would beat you up, yet you come on a forum and say it because you now are an annonymous poster.

 

[Marty2Hotty]

paulsoprano,
the main thing was is that we couldn't do a shot without having to explain why the camera is there. borash or crystal had to be in every vignette. you couldn't do tv. you had to do wrestling. you just can't develop characters the way they need to be because you're restricted with the ridiculous concept, which was outdated 10 years ago, that there needed to be an expalantion why the camera was there.

Yeah, i noticed that. it doesn't have to be explained man.. it's television.. and when they cut to abyss being interviewed by dr stevie, mike tenay has to explain that they let cameras in.. same with when dr nash was consulting kurt angle

you dont need to explaint htat. it's television. it only becomes cheesy when it's poorly acted and written. but tna has done many things where they take the camera away

like aj going on a date with karen

like the thanksgiving special in 2007.. which i think was one of tna's greatest shows

shark boy's house had jb there.. but it was still really humourous.. esp when shark boy became stone cold

even when christian was looking fora partner.. even with the commentators there you can still do some really great stuff.. i've seen TNA do it

but they haven't done too much of those and i miss them. becasue tna can really do great stuff if they wanted to

they really need to release a TNA's greatest most entertaining moments dvd.. they have so many wrestling-oriented dvds.. wwe used to do best of raw dvds where they just had entertaining segments

tna needs some of those.. and AJ STyles will be heavily featured because the stuff he did in early 2008 was great. even the episode where they went to aj's house

 

[ad21k]

Disco, why is TNA so useless at developing talent?

Who in the last 4 years has come through the ranks in TNA, and got anywhere near the main event?

AJ Styles, and Samoa Joe - Two of the stalest characters in professional wrestling, two guys that would maybe just about make the mid-card in WWE if they were lucky. Neither are good workers, both lack charisma, and both still don't understand match storytelling, and the only way they can connect to the crowd is through spots.

I mean where would TNA be without Sting and Angle...

 

[Talon_DR]

The camera concept is a Jeff Jarrett/Jerry Jarrett idea. One of the big things Jerry left with Jeff is the notion that there needs to be a reason for a camera there. I think it's realistic. Unless you do a hidden camera concept, why would you see something happening as its happening?

 

[klunderbunker]

Teh camera thing has always been a suspension of disbelief thing for me. It really makes little difference in my mind as I never think about it. I just kind of go with it.

 

[gg inferno]

The camera concept is a Jeff Jarrett/Jerry Jarrett idea. One of the big things Jerry left with Jeff is the notion that there needs to be a reason for a camera there. I think it's realistic. Unless you do a hidden camera concept, why would you see something happening as its happening?

but it doesn't serve it's purpose because wrestling is not real, and nobody in their right mind gets suspended in disbelief enough to think that it is. do you actually think that jim ross shouldv'e accompanied austin to the bridge that rock threw him off of to make sure your disbelief was suspended?? the cameras are there. period. you don't need to explain why they are.

 

[paulsoprano]

but it doesn't serve it's purpose because wrestling is not real, and nobody in their right mind gets suspended in disbelief enough to think that it is. do you actually think that jim ross shouldv'e accompanied austin to the bridge that rock threw him off of to make sure your disbelief was suspended?? the cameras are there. period. you don't need to explain why they are.

I see where you are coming from, Glenn. I CAN see their logic, though. There are ways around it - remember GTV or when Kevin Kelly was on location when Pillman and Austin had their infamous altercation?

I think this is maybe part of the problem. UFC don't get their guys over by having one competitor throw the other off a bridge. It worked in the Attitude era, but all the explosions and dramatics are not necessary to get someone over. It can be effective in moderation, but just became lazy, to the extent that WWE "blew up" Vince McMahon when they ran out of strong strorytelling elements. In other words, I think it's largely unnecessary these days.

UFC's real and wrestling is fake, but I don't think that means wrestling should insult the intelligence. So often it does. That does not mean it has to be super serious, but it should at least reflect the times. It shouldn't really draw attention to itself as fake (the characters of Suicide and Super Eric immediately spring to mind). When it's done right, you still know it's fake but can get invested in it. That's what all entertainment should try to do.

 

[Audioslave]

1) creative has to give them stuff because they (aj and joe) come up with zilch on their own

Well I'm sure that when Flair came up with the whole "Stylin' & Profilin'" catchphrase, it wasn't overnight or given to him by a writer. Again I'm just saying that kind of stuff, the catchphrase shit, needs to happen naturally. It can't always be something forced. If I remember correctly, isn't TNA scripted to a T? How can you or anyone else expect them to come up with *anything* like that?