More successfule: Raven or Dreamer

[DaNewGuy]

Which guy has had a more successful career?

Raven came to prominence in ECW, where he was a top teir stalwart, before moving to WCW in a relatively prominent spot, holding the US title and having the Flock centred around him. He moved to the WWF where he was involved mostly with the hardcore title and not particularly prominent for any length of time, before his stint in TNA where he was again a featured attraction (in his first stint at least). Following this he disappeared from TV to the indies, and is now doing stand up comedy.

Dreamer also made his name in ECW, however he stayed loyal to the company to the end, and whilst he was a major player his highlight was likely his fued with Lawler, rather than his short ECW title reign. He joined the WWF where he did little of note in front of the camera until his title reign in the ECW brand. He also had an office job and was involved in development. He had a short run in TNA before opening his own school/promotion.

The question isn't who was/is better, but who has been more successful in the business as a whole?

 

[Hard Hit Prince]

- Raven had the most successful career without a doubt, he worked in the three big promotion in the 90's them being WCW, ECW and WWF. He wasn't a random jobber, he acquired success in all three. He was also the best character of the two, Tommy Dreamer is the classical old school face that got everything he worked for and that's the way he got over in ECW, but Raven in half the time in ECW made a bigger impact than Dreamer in 10 years there. Raven also won a NWA Heavyweight Championship in TNA and has 27 Hardcore Championships over at WWE which is 10 times more than Tommy Dreamer.

Now WWE's re-run of ECW got Dreamer mainstream attention, a thing that Raven does not had for over 10 years now so one can argue that Dreamer is more popular because of that, and for that Dreamer can probably end up getting more money than Raven does, so if by success you mean get more money than Dreamer was more successful of the two.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

Tommy Dreamer.

Raven has more accolades, as in championships, but his career sunk faster than Tommy's did. Dreamer was smart, invested wisely, worked an office job when he didn't feel the love for performing anymore and then returned with that love regenerated to what it was when he first began. He was one of the original ECW's main characters and attractions, don't call him the "Heart and Soul" of the promotion for nothing. Hes been wrestling longer than Raven and is still in great condition.

Raven has held more top titles than Dreamer but as aforementioned, where has he been for the past... six years?! His drug and alcohol abuse in the late 90's caught up with him. His WCW run was a disappointment, whether it be his or as he believes WCW's fault is irrelevant at this point. His second WWE run was a failure. His ROH and TNA run was good and its the last of him in his prime (more like living on borrowed time, but whatever) but again, the moment it ended is the moment Raven was finished. He's in poor shape, can't wrestle to half the pace a guy like Dreamer can and he isn't giving back to the business.

Raven is supposedly a nice guy (some oppose this opinion) but in the long haul his career was a mixture of high points and relevancy, followed by low points and irrelevancy which is now neverending. He can still cut an awesome promo though, gotta give him that.

 

[Alex]

Coming from a guy who missed both their primes I'd have to say Raven. Why because his high points were higher than Dreamer's.

One can argue that Dreamer's stuck around longer and is more well known now. But for what?? Being an ECW original on the WWE rebooted ECW brand. He got an ECW title run less than a year before the brand folded and that was pretty much a thank you reign.

Raven won the ECW championship in the mid 90s when ECW was big (as far as I know) and from a guy who never watched ECW I know that Raven brought some of the highlights to the company. His fued with Sandman were very controversial, with the crucifying of Sandman being one of the main ones. The only thing I know Tommy Dreamer did in ECW was fued with Raven.

Raven also won the NWA Championship at a time when you had to pry the thing from Jeff Jarett's fingers. He was also one of the prominent figures in TNA's early days. You can argue that back then TNA weren't much but Raven had name value.


Tommy Dreamer may be doing better financially and good on him. But Raven was one of the most famous of the ECW stars and to this day still has a cult following (just ask Naitch). Tommy Dreamer doesn't have that.

I decided to try and find the highlights of Raven's career on the net. Can't say I'd do the same for Tommy Dreamer.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

I suppose it depends on your definition of success. If you mean who's had more success in terms of being thought of as one of the "all time greats", then neither guy comes anywhere close. It'd be like asking which turd left the biggest skidmark in the underwear of the wrestling business.

Raven and Dreamer are, first and foremost, going to be thought of and remembered more fondly by indy fans than fans of WCW, WWE and TNA. So I'm gonna look at this from sort of a mix of what they've done on the indy circuit and in the big leagues.

Both men were big stars in ECW, though that isn't saying much when you look at the rest of the roster. As a singles wrestler, Raven had two dominant runs as ECW World Heavyweight Champion with his reigns lasting a total of 379 days. He held several regional NWA titles and became NWA World Heavyweight Champion for about 3 months in TNA back in the summer of 2005. He had some success in WCW by winning the WCW World Light Heavyweight Championship, the WCW United States Heavyweight Championship & WCW World Tag Team Championship 1 time each.

Tommy Dreamer is thought of as the "heart and soul" of ECW and that's probably true. Nobody has championed ECW as much as Dreamer did and still does. His time in ECW, from an accomplishment standpoint, isn't on the same level as Raven. He won the ECW WHC but lost it the same night and, like Raven, had some runs as one half of the tag champs. Dreamer won the ECW WHC late in the life of WWE's revival of ECW but it didn't mean anything really. It felt like a token reign which, in all honesty, it probably was. Both he & Raven also had multiple runs as WWE Hardcore Champion, though that's not saying much at all.

Raven is someone that's actually gotten some real measure of success outside of ECW and Tommy Dreamer hasn't. During TNA's little ECW revival a while back, Dreamer would constantly go into the same sob story he's told about how much he loves the business and what ECW meant to him every time they put a microphone in his hand. While Dreamer & Raven are massively overrated in my opinion, Raven is by far the wrestler I'd most want to see. To me, Dreamer is the epitome of an overrated ECW legend.

Both Raven & Dreamer strike me as sad relics that live in the past and continue to get hype based on stuff they were doing in the mid to late 90s. As I alluded to earlier, their entire run in TNA a while back was based on stuff they'd done more than a decade and a half earlier. Neither guy is at all relevant at this point and, in the grand scheme of things, really hasn't been relevant since the original ECW went tits up. But as to who I think has had the better career, I'm going with Raven. Tommy Dreamer might be the sentimental favorite of a lot of people but, in my eyes, Raven was a much better wrestler in just about every capacity that's actually managed to do some things that weren't built on his part in the legacy of ECW.

 

[klunderbunker]

This is actually up for debate? Let's see.

Tommy Dreamer is a 14 time Hardcore Champion, 2 time ECW Champion (one being in WWE), and a 3 time ECW Tag Team Champion. He's also probably the longest running nostalgia act in wrestling history, having somehow kept getting work off the memory of a company for the last 11 and a half years.

Raven is a 27 time Hardcore Champion, 2 time ECW Champion (including main eventing the first ever ECW PPV), 4 time ECW Tag Team Champion, WCW US Champion, WCW Tag Team Champion, WCW Light Heavyweight champion, TNA World Champion (anyone that says he was actually NWA Champion loses 500 rep points. You know what I mean), and his most famous feud was spent beating Tommy Dreamer roughly 3847 times in a row. On top of ALL THAT, Raven won the last match in the feud against Dreamer.

How is this even REMOTELY close? Raven is famous for accomplishments, Dreamer is famous because of who his boss used to be. This isn't close.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

I have no idea who has been more successful in the business — I'm not privy to either of their bank accounts. What kind of a discussion talking point is that anyway? I'm much more interested in who was the better wrestler, who was the better character, or who was the more successful wrestling performer — because the answer to all three is unanimously Raven.

Tommy Dreamer, in a lot of ways is like Steve Austin, in that he's the guy the fans liked because they could relate to him. It's easy to look at Dreamer and go "man, I could be that guy", or Austin and think "man, I'd love to punch my boss in the fuckin' face too! This guy rules!" They're basically normal looking, albeit slightly more muscular dudes. No gimmicks. No flare. Nothing special. In a lot of ways... generic. That's not to say that being generic in this sense is a kin to being uninteresting, as both men can attribute to otherwise, but regardless, there was very little flare to Dreamer throughout his career. Everything from his haircut to his body type to the way he wrestled matches was completely unmemorable. He found success despite the odds though, often through the feuds he was featured in (hi, Raven).

The opposite is true of Raven, who has always remained something of a cult fan favorite, and who's career is riddled with far more successes and accomplishments. His talent supersedes Tommy Dreamers on all levels — especially when it comes to character. There was something about Raven that drew fans into him from the onset. The way he'd walk to the ring, only to collapse into the corner of it, sitting there waiting for his opponent to arrive to the days of his kilt, the multiple hair cuts, etc. In a lot of ways he's a testament to why fans love Jeff Hardy so much today, despite Hardy not really being able to hold a candle to Raven's personality or character depth.

 

[Spinebreaker]

I've always had a soft spot for Tommy Dreamer. He's always come across as someone who loves what he does, which is infectious.

However, even as a Dreamer fan, I think Raven achieved more, in more places and is remembered by more people. He also, was a better wrestler.

Raven, definitely

 

[Brewski]

While numbers speak clearly in Raven's favor, Tommy Dreamer is more important to the history of ECW that Raven is to any wrestling company. From start to finish, Dreamer was there for ECW. He's the guy who kicked out of the superfly splash(first to do so), he's the guy who beat his head against a locker til it bled for the sake of a promo, he's the guy who asked for another and another cane lashing. He's everything that made the fans at those live events incredible. Lets not forget his most famous quote either

"I was actually pissed off. I wanted to go my entire ECW career without winning titles. The only reason I won titles is because guys left"

Raven might have been the one to travel and collect accolades dreamer is the reason for the success of a whole organization. The only person that even comes close to his importance to ECW is Shane Douglas. Raven can be considered more successful but Dreamer is more important

The word of thumb is that if you can't write the history of a sport without mentioning somebody he belongs in the hall of fame. You can't write the history of Wrestling without ECW and you can't write the history of ECW without Dreamer.

EDIT: I forgot, Tommy Dreamer actually is inducted into the Hardcore HOF.

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

Raven is the correct answer to this question.

While people recognise Tommy Dreamer as the "Heart and Soul of ECW", and they are probably right, Raven was more successful when we look at the facts- 2 ECW reigns to Dreamer's 1 and 3 tag title reigns to Dreamer's 3.

I would rank the Dreamer/Raven feud among my all-time favourites, but where else has Tommy Dreamer meant ANYTHING? I mean, I like the guy but he never accomplished anything of note anywhere else in the ring except a "thank you" ECW title reign in WWECW.

Raven was a big player in WCW for a while, won the US title and in WWE was almost as underused as Dreamer (some of the stuff they gave Tommy was awful), although his 27 Hardcore title reigns is far more than Dreamer accomplished. Plus, Raven's Hardcore title match with Rhyno is regarded as one of the WWE's best ever.

Also, Raven meant something in both ROH with his great feud with CM Punk and TNA, especially in the early days of the promotion, his jump from WWE was made out to be a big deal and he was always there in the title picture in the early days of the promotion, finally achieving his self-proclamed destiny and becoming NWA World Heayweight Champion in 2005 (i think it was).

Dreamer's arrival in TNA where he brought back EV2.0 was hyped up by TNA, but really it was clear that everyone was past their prime and noone really cared in the end.

When it comes to promo's too, Raven has Dreamer beat. One of the best of all time easily, while Dreamer has always been painfully average on the mic.

However, at the moment Dreamer has just made a return to WWE while Raven is really out of shape and washed up, his drug use in the 1990s has caught up with him, although he is clean now. It saddens me to see him in such poor shape, but although Tommy looks better and can still go, there is no doubt in my mind that his career pales in comparison to Raven's.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Interesting question, but I'm not sure how anyone can come to the conclusion that Dreamer was more successful unless they're trying to be contrary for the sake of being contrary.

Like someone said already... we have no clue how good either of these guys were at saving their money. I can guarantee that Raven MADE more money than Dreamer ever did (Raven was working in WCW in a good spot during the ATM Eric days, while Dreamer kept working for bounce a check Heyman during the same time). Raven also had the drug habit though, while it seems like Dreamer to his credit kept himself clean. So who really knows?

Professionally though, there's absolutely no question that Raven had the better career. Both guys broke into the business around the same time (Raven debuted in '88, Dreamer in '89). Raven made it big first as Scotty Flamingo in the WWF. Dreamer didn't until ECW. Dreamer's biggest program ever was arguably against Raven. You can make a case that Raven had bigger ones than that. Dreamer's whole gimmick essentially was that he was an ECW guy. In ECW his gimmick was that he was more hardcore than everyone else, because ECW was hardcore. After ECW, he smartly continued to embrace that ECW affiliation. I say smartly because people loved ECW, and by embracing it he was better able to transfer that love of ECW onto himself, and thus stayed more relevant than someone of his talents probably should have. At the same time though, no one will ever know if Tommy Dreamer could have made it without ECW... because we never saw a Tommy Dreamer that wasn't all about ECW.

Raven on the other hand, was Raven. He may have worked in ECW, but that didn't define him as much as he defined himself. Sure some of that definition had a lot of ECW wrapped into it, but he made those elements his own, instead of wrapping himself in the flag of the dead company he used to work for.

Raven was able to work in any company. WCW paid a fair bit of money to lure him away from ECW and gave him a good position with the Flock. WWE took him back later, and TNA wanted him too. Both again giving him good spots. He could have had better spots. Many felt that Raven could have become one of the industries biggest names, but unfortunately for Raven, he was probably his own worst enemy at times and he burnt some bridges and pissed the wrong people off (go look up the story about Raven, Steve Austin, Deborah and the shower to get an idea). That and the drugs, and he didn't reach the heights he could have as a result.

Dreamer worked ECW, and WWECW... then continued as an ECW nostalgia act afterwards. It's kept him working all this time so good for him, but without the ECW connection, I don't think many people cared for Tommy Dreamer. They did care about Raven though.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

I'm going to add a new wrinkle to this.

Tommy Dreamer is all Tommy Dreamer has ever been, and to his credit, he's been that very well and very consistently for a very long time. He's been one character - the ECW-loyal underdog who takes the best beating in the business. The loveable loser. He's the Chicago Cubs of pro wrestling.

Raven has actually shown himself as someone able to break out a little bit and show some range. Am I the only one old enough to vividly remember his work in the WWF in the early-mid 90's as announcer Johnny Polo? He was the complete antithesis of the Raven character in that role, and yet he executed it so well. He also managed Adam Bomb - the only one capable of getting that train wreck over - and managed The Quebecers to 3 Tag Team Titles and a memorable feud with the Steiner Brothers.

I would add the fact that Scott Levy - the man behind Raven - has shown infinitely more range that Tommy Dreamer has.

 

[DaNewGuy]

I suppose it depends on your definition of success. If you mean who's had more success in terms of being thought of as one of the "all time greats", then neither guy comes anywhere close. It'd be like asking which turd left the biggest skidmark in the underwear of the wrestling business.

I agree completely with what you've said, but I'd say there's more to success than on screen acheivement. Owen Hart was a success, but never really had a run at the top. Dean Malenko likewise was never Hulk Hogan but has consistently been on shows when an active wrestler, and backstage since that ended.
Talent isn't necessarily a prerequisite to success either. Compare Dreamer and Foley. Foley isn't remembered by most people for great matches, he's remembered for falling off high places and sustaining beatings, just like Dreamer. The difference is the stage they were on as to how well remembered they are. Granted Foley was a better talker and had bigger bumps.

I have no idea who has been more successful in the business — I'm not privy to either of their bank accounts.

I'd argue there's more to success than financial advancement. Howard Finkel is the longest serving WWE employee, he's probably not eating out of bins but I'm guessing he takes more pride in his work record than his bank account. Jim Ross the same. The Bossman was never the top guy, but was on shows consistently for years in various promotions before his death. Devon Dudley has never been on top but he's been prominent in various larger promotions for ~15 years with minimal interuption, and on top of that runs well reputed a wrestling school.

 

[Tequila Dave]

1. Raven
2. Dreamer
3. Whoever taught you spelling

In an industry such as professional wrestling, hell, any industry really, I measure success by career earnings. Taking that into consideration, I'm guessing Raven is more successful. He bounced around the three big companies in the 90s, held a considerable amount of champions in comparison to Dreamer, and was an integral part of early TNA. Though I'm sure he's blown most of his money, I'm positive he's earned more overall.

 

[reeviint]

Now WWE's re-run of ECW got Dreamer mainstream attention, a thing that Raven does not had for over 10 years now so one can argue that Dreamer is more popular because of that, and for that Dreamer can probably end up getting more money than Raven does, so if by success you mean get more money than Dreamer was more successful of the two.

 

[Denny Crane]

I think even though Dreamer has a longer time in the spotlight with his runs in the WWE and TNA the past few years, Raven, by far, has been the most successful. Raven put E.C.W. on the mat with his antics.