"Mom, Dad. I think I'm gay!"

[Ultra Awesome]

What happens when you half-ass debates? You start to get your ass kicked. Should’ve put a better effort on my last post. Ah, well. Time to make up some lost ground.

You're missing the point. I'm saying it's not logical to take any side n this debate, simply because nobody actually knows. You can't debate something you don't know about. The kind of people who continue this kind of debate are the people who have been bumping heads for 20 years, because the debate literally can't end without some scientific PROOF that gays are or are not biologically programmed to be gay. And there isn't.

A friendly debate never hurt anybody, Mozz. But as for these disputes that you see all too often: well, the simple logic that humans love to argue and be right will apply. Yes, there is no hard evidence to suggest whether gays are born gay or not – but the fact of the matter is, people will argue for every little thing no matter how trivial. “Nature vs. Nurture” is just one of the most common debates of all.

‘That said, as of right now, the evidence [that is already found] points more towards homosexuals becoming gay as a result of environmental/psychological factors. Think of it like a soccer game. We’re currently in the 20th minute; and the score is: Nature – 1; Nurture – 2.

That's absolutely not true. If it were true, racism wouldn't exist either.

You misunderstood what I said. What you are referring to is discrimination – what I am referring to is something different.

If it is true that gays ARE indeed born gay, then society would begin to accept these people as NORMAL human beings – not as lessers. What I mean by this is that gays would now have to be looked as equal to those that are straight. Remember when Blacks were viewed as 1/5 of a citizen? Gays are more or less looked on in a similar way. People view someone being gay as someone having a mental illness. However, if gays are born gay, then people will begin to accept them as normally born people – not lessers as it is now.

I'm having trouble buying this, simply because this entire paragraph implies that you subscribe to a seriously flawed ideal that people will have no choice but to accept homosexuality if it turns out that homosexuality absolutely cannot be helped.

Nah, man. Discrimination will always exist no matter what – that’s a default. But what I’m talking about is the common belief that the world lives in right now. Gays right now are viewed as mentally insane. Sure, people like you and me don’t see it that way; but that’s the common reality that’s been spread throughout the world: gays are crazy for thinking the way they do. However, if gays really are born gay, then this belief that is our reality will slowly disappear.

Again, pointing out the comparison between homophobia and racism. We KNOW you can't do anything about race. If you were born black, you're going to be black for the rest of your life, regardless of what you do with your skin (inb4michaeljacksonjokes). Yet these people continue to experience racism, today, in the beginning of 2011.

And again, you’re talking about discrimination – I’m talking about reality.

I assume you mean "can't" because I just said they can be wrong. If you actually meant "can," then please disregard this next paragraph.

I did; as what I said was what I meant.

Everything from the bolded statement is simply incorrect, dude-man.

An opinion and a hypothesis are mutually exclusive. You can not scientifically test an opinion. Also, debates don't exist to prove one guy right or wrong. They exist as a form of expressing opposing opinions between two or more people.[Yes, that’s exactly what I said]

One of the biggest things about society today, is the shifting of the definition of "opinion". An opinion is a subjective expression about something. "Linkin Park is a good band," "Picasso was a great artist," "That hamburger was delicious," -- these are all examples of opinions. These can change from person to person.[Memes – they spread as memes]

"I believe evolution is false," -- This can not be changed from person to person. Evolution isn't going to become any less true if someone doesn't believe in it. It's just going to make the disbeliever incorrect.

I see now that I botched my first quote. Sorry about that. Here’s a rephrasing:

When an opinion is formed, it is spread as a meme. This meme travels from person to person; once done, more than one person holds it. Now, this meme that has been spread throughout the general public - it will be started to viewed as a “truth” even though it may not necessarily be true. So what happens when this particular opinion meets another that is different? They clash – both opinions trying to prove the other wrong. In the end, the purpose is to convince the other to think a different way so that these people who held the previous opinion will inevitably start to believe what the opposing side thinks. Thus, the reality (meme) that was spread will continue to dominate the population.

It doesn’t matter whether either of the sides is true because the fact of the matter is, so long as the meme spreads, this false reality is also spread. This can be easily tied to the Nurture vs. Nature concept. The main purpose people continue this debate is to convince the other to think a different way. Whether there be a lack of evidence or not, so long as the other is convinced, that is all that matters. Though, of course, this main purpose has a bunch more different braches attached to it i.e. gay marriages, (etc).

If you can give me an example of a homosexual who doesn't want to be homosexual, it would be greatly appreciated. I've never heard of this before. Unless it has to do with being a homosexual, and not wanting to be due to heavy pressure coming from his environment, then that's more understandable. But if you know of someone living in a completely supporting environment, who wants to change who they are as a person, then by all means, please give me an example.

The bolded part is what I meant, obviously. Uh, of course people wouldn’t want to STOP being gay unless their environment they live in was perfectly normal. Nevertheless, here’s a link to people who’ve wanted to stop being the way they were.

http://www.43things.com/things/view/85263/stop-being-gay

What I find interesting is that a few of these people are but mere children. It’s funny how when one thinks even the tiniest bit of something gay, they start to think that they are or rather, are becoming gay. This is a misconception that spreads all too often. Just because you had a gay thought does not automatically make you a homosexual. However, if you start to believe that you are a homosexual then obviously you will become one. Youre mind will be too psychologically affected into believing so.

I never said there was. It was simply an example.

As of right now, the facts point more towards homosexuality being the result of environmental/psychological factors.

Okay. I've yet to encounter an alien. But if scientific theories are correct, then there's an almost 100% chance life on other planets, and in other galaxies exist.

Here’s the problem with that comparison: it’s one sided. The fact that aliens exist is practically common knowledge. It’s asinine to even think that aliens do NOT exist. Therefore, such a theory has now become common knowledge.

Nature being the cause of homosexuality, on the other hand - the chances of that being correct are still at 0. As for nurture, the chances of that being correct are without a doubt more than zero.

How do you figure? I would say a bird's ability to fly, or a fish's ability to swim fall a lot higher than us on the evolutionary totem pole. Sure, we have a might higher capacity for coherent thought and expression, as well as a fantastic ability to advance as a species, but our bodies pretty much suck. We're pretty much stuck to dry land. [When I said evolution I ment in terms of the mind. We are higher above other species of animals]

But that's not even the point. The point is, homosexuality is a purely instinctual act for animals, and it's only natural to think that it's an instinctual thing for homosexual behavior in humans. Also, humans don't have sex for pleasure. We have sex to reproduce. Pleasure is just an added perk. A gift given to us by evolution, if you will.

Purely instintcual? Where's your proof of that? No where does it suggest that homosexuality in animals is the result of PURELY instinct. All we have now is sepcualtion. Worst of all, the speculation falls incomparison to homosexuality in humans. The main on-going theories that show why animals interct in homosexual behavior is because of either A. Show dominance or B. strengthen alliances and social ties.

The notion that human attraction to males or females has nothing to do with instinct is absolutely absurd.

I botched this, but instinct isn't all that goes into what makes us be attracted to whoever it is we are attracted to. Instinct is but a mere slice of the pie.

Again, you're speaking as if we have the mental capacity to deviate from what we're biologically programmed to do. The influence is ALWAYS going to be there, whether you like it or not. Your genes aren't your annoying mother, always pestering you with chores, and threatening punishment. Your biological makeup is making you WANT to have sex with women, which is why it's theorized that something is wrong with the biological makeup of homosexuals to some extent that's making them WANT to have sex with their own gender.

Our genes make up what's going on in our minds.

Genes may be what goes on in our mind, but that isn't all that influences us to think the way we think. I understand what you're saying but there is a flaw. Genes aren't hardwire. Just because our genes program us to be or act a certain way does not mean that that is the way we WILL be. Too many environmental factors/psychological factors play a key role in that to suggest otherwise.

This is in part the reason the nurture side of the argument exists. The other parts stem from the studies that have shown key factors in determining why one would become a homosexual. This and of course, there is no proof on the biological side.

Uh...

We don't have an answer for God. We don't have an answer for black holes. We don't have an answer for UFOs. We don't have an answer for dreams. We don't have an answer for hysteria. We don't have an answer for pretty much anything that goes on at a submolecular level.

Don't take this personally, but this is a piss poor argument. You can't make ANY conclusions based on a lack of evidence. You draw scientific conclusions by the evidence you FIND, not the evidence you don't.

Sorry about that, it would seem I botched another quote. But regardless, the fact that there is a lack of proof to suggest that biology is the sole reason for why one is a homosexual fails to prove that it is so. As of this momment, because of this, it's only logical to find the appeal that psychological/environmental factors are the reason for one's homosexuality to be much more convincing.


...It would seem that we are far from done in this debate. Ah well. 'Tis fun, anyways. Back to you, man.

 

[Serious Mozzarella]

Sorry I haven't been able to pay attention to anything of worth on the forums lately, I've been rather busy over the weekend, and only had time to dick around in the Cage and spam sections.

What happens when you half-ass debates? You start to get your ass kicked. Should’ve put a better effort on my last post. Ah, well. Time to make up some lost ground.

It happens, and you've more than made up for it.

A friendly debate never hurt anybody, Mozz. But as for these disputes that you see all too often: well, the simple logic that humans love to argue and be right will apply. Yes, there is no hard evidence to suggest whether gays are born gay or not – but the fact of the matter is, people will argue for every little thing no matter how trivial. “Nature vs. Nurture” is just one of the most common debates of all.

So what's even the point of it? I mean, why even waste time enforcing a position when there's a chance that you could be wrong, when the logical position is to wait and see? Fundamentally, you and I have the same attitude toward homosexuals, they can't help it, and they should be accepted into society. But if you know there is really no evidence to suggest whether or not they were born with homosexuality, why believe it?

‘That said, as of right now, the evidence [that is already found] points more towards homosexuals becoming gay as a result of environmental/psychological factors. Think of it like a soccer game. We’re currently in the 20th minute; and the score is: Nature – 1; Nurture – 2.

I... don't really understand the metaphor. Yes, there is evidence to suggest that homosexuals become gay through environmental/psychological factors, but there's zero evidence to suggest that all of them are gay via that route. The think about sociological science is that, in order to prove something that is true about all of one type of person, this quality needs to show in EVERY person, with few exceptions.

You misunderstood what I said. What you are referring to is discrimination – what I am referring to is something different.

I understood what you said. But there is a difference between discrimination and racism. Black people absolutely can not help they way they are. There is nothing they can do. But they are still discriminated against on a daily basis, due to racism. Yes, society in general has accepted black people into society, but it took almost 200 years, and there is STILL a lot of work to be done.

Society had a choice on whether to allow black people into society, and for the longest time, they refused.

If it is true that gays ARE indeed born gay, then society would begin to accept these people as NORMAL human beings – not as lessers. What I mean by this is that gays would now have to be looked as equal to those that are straight. Remember when Blacks were viewed as 1/5 of a citizen? Gays are more or less looked on in a similar way. People view someone being gay as someone having a mental illness. However, if gays are born gay, then people will begin to accept them as normally born people – not lessers as it is now.

This is simply not true. There are contradictions with your argument here, so I'm going to break it down.

If it is true that gays ARE indeed born gay, then society would begin to accept these people as NORMAL human beings – not as lessers.

If this is true, then the problem with back people integrating into society would have been solved long ago, but it's still not solved today.

What I mean by this is that gays would now have to be looked as equal to those that are straight.

Except that it's not the case with blacks, and it's not the case with gays.

People view someone being gay as someone having a mental illness.

Even if homosexuality WERE a mental illness, that's still not something that they can control. The fact that they are literally not hurting anybody with their homosexuality is the reason why they should be accepted into society. But that's a given. People are far more tolerant to people with legitimate mental illnesses than they are with homosexuals.

Nah, man. Discrimination will always exist no matter what – that’s a default. But what I’m talking about is the common belief that the world lives in right now. Gays right now are viewed as mentally insane. Sure, people like you and me don’t see it that way; but that’s the common reality that’s been spread throughout the world: gays are crazy for thinking the way they do. However, if gays really are born gay, then this belief that is our reality will slowly disappear.

I don't think homosexuals are viewed that way at all, simply because they aren't dangerous to the people around them. Sure, they may be off-putting to those who aren't used to the "queen" type of personality, but that's not at all the same thing as someone being off-put by someone who is mentally insane.

As a bisexual, I am actually quite offended by that notion, simply because no one would even know about my sexuality unless I'm not physically making out with another guy right in front of them. Last person I told, they thought I was joking.

And again, you’re talking about discrimination – I’m talking about reality.

As it turns out, discrimination is reality.

When an opinion is formed, it is spread as a meme. This meme travels from person to person; once done, more than one person holds it. Now, this meme that has been spread throughout the general public - it will be started to viewed as a “truth” even though it may not necessarily be true. So what happens when this particular opinion meets another that is different? They clash – both opinions trying to prove the other wrong. In the end, the purpose is to convince the other to think a different way so that these people who held the previous opinion will inevitably start to believe what the opposing side thinks. Thus, the reality (meme) that was spread will continue to dominate the population.

That's still incorrect. Opinions aren't solid. Opinions aren't looked at as truth, ever. If you have an "opinion" (your sense of the word, not mine) and you're proven wrong, that opinion goes away. If it doesn't, then you're hard-headed and unintelligent. You don't need to think a certain way in order to believe something.

If something is tangibly presented to you, something you never believed existed, you're not going to say, "I still don't believe it exists." That would be silly.

It doesn’t matter whether either of the sides is true because the fact of the matter is, so long as the meme spreads, this false reality is also spread. This can be easily tied to the Nurture vs. Nature concept. The main purpose people continue this debate is to convince the other to think a different way. Whether there be a lack of evidence or not, so long as the other is convinced, that is all that matters. Though, of course, this main purpose has a bunch more different braches attached to it i.e. gay marriages, (etc).

But they're wrong. It doesn't matter what public opinion is. That's how the logical fallacy Appeal to the Majority forms. A public opinion is never, EVER viewed as truth, under any circumstance.

The bolded part is what I meant, obviously. Uh, of course people wouldn’t want to STOP being gay unless their environment they live in was perfectly normal. Nevertheless, here’s a link to people who’ve wanted to stop being the way they were.

http://www.43things.com/things/view/85263/stop-being-gay

What I find interesting is that a few of these people are but mere children. It’s funny how when one thinks even the tiniest bit of something gay, they start to think that they are or rather, are becoming gay. This is a misconception that spreads all too often. Just because you had a gay thought does not automatically make you a homosexual. However, if you start to believe that you are a homosexual then obviously you will become one. Youre mind will be too psychologically affected into believing so.

But what about the people who aren't effected by hysteria?

You've presented an extremely specific example of someone's sexuality in order to support your point. This guy believed so hard that he was a homosexual, so that he became one, but that's not how the vast majority of homosexuals became who they are. In fact, many people have claimed to have been gay since the very first time they became attracted to other people (like, when boys first start to like girls and vice versa), growing up in the most "normal" household you can think of. Who are we to tell them otherwise?

Here’s the problem with that comparison: it’s one sided. The fact that aliens exist is practically common knowledge. It’s asinine to even think that aliens do NOT exist. Therefore, such a theory has now become common knowledge.

So as long as a lot of people believe something, it's common knowledge, and shouldn't be examined?

So then the existence of a deity is common knowledge, and shouldn't be challenged?

Nature being the cause of homosexuality, on the other hand - the chances of that being correct are still at 0. As for nurture, the chances of that being correct are without a doubt more than zero.

This is an absurd notion. You've just said that there is absolutely no chance that people are born gay.

Purely instintcual? Where's your proof of that? No where does it suggest that homosexuality in animals is the result of PURELY instinct. All we have now is sepcualtion. Worst of all, the speculation falls incomparison to homosexuality in humans. The main on-going theories that show why animals interct in homosexual behavior is because of either A. Show dominance or B. strengthen alliances and social ties.

The proof of that is the notion that only like 4 animals besides humans in the world practice sex for what appears to be shits and giggles and/or pleasure.

If you can tell me why any of these animals have homosexual sex, then please let me know, because I certainly don't have that knowledge.

Most of these animals live off nothing but instinct, without too much independent thought. They're born, do what they have to do to stay alive, reproduce, die, their kids do the same exact thing, all on instinct. Male on male sex does literally nothing, so why do they do it?

Genes may be what goes on in our mind, but that isn't all that influences us to think the way we think. I understand what you're saying but there is a flaw. Genes aren't hardwire. Just because our genes program us to be or act a certain way does not mean that that is the way we WILL be. Too many environmental factors/psychological factors play a key role in that to suggest otherwise.

This

This tells you all you need to know about instinct, why instinct exists, and what goes on in our brain when an instinct kicks in.

Sorry about that, it would seem I botched another quote. But regardless, the fact that there is a lack of proof to suggest that biology is the sole reason for why one is a homosexual fails to prove that it is so. As of this momment, because of this, it's only logical to find the appeal that psychological/environmental factors are the reason for one's homosexuality to be much more convincing.

As long as you can agree that environmental and psychological factors are not the sole reason for ALL homosexuality in human nature, then I have nothing more to prove.