**MERGED** WWE Hall of Fame 2013 Discussion (Keep it in here!!!!)

[MrMojoRisin]

Wrestling 101: You say 'anyone who doesn't think the Von Erichs deserve to be in the HOF should get their head checked'? Give me one good reason why 5 of the 7 Von Erichs who died before the age of 32 (and the one that's been on suicide watch for all these years) deserves to be in the HOF? What did any of them do that was so important for wrestling? Just because they were all involved in wrestling means nothing. If it did then you'd see all those jobber Villano brothers in there. Only one Von Erich ever even made it to the WWE and the Texas Tornado during his brief stint was really no bigger than Leaping Lanny in the territories or his Genius character in WWE. What I'm gonna say here is kinda awful but it's true.. besides Fritz, what did Larry, Curly, Moe or Kerry Von Erich do of any significance in life or in wrestling except overdose and blow their brains out? Killing yourself 20 years before you're even able to put together a Hall of Fame-worthy legacy is not grounds for Hall of Fame induction. But they're there and so is KoKo Beware and Pete Rose and Drew Carey and William Refrigerator Perry, Mike Tyson and Bob Ueker. So are career mid carders like Don Muraco, John Studd, JYD, Tito Santana, Sgt. Slaughter, Bob Orton, Paul Orndorff, Iron Sheik and Ron Simmons. If all these nobodies made it in then I don't see any problem with honouring Savage's wish to have his nobody father and brother inducted. The second rate HOF can't be any more disgraced than it already is. So Wrestling 101 you should get your own head checked before telling anyone else to be getting their head checked when it's pretty obvious you don't have very sound reasoning to back up your arguments.

This HAS to be a troll. There is no way any true wrestling fan can take this comment seriously.

If you are not trolling... please, please, try learning SOMETHING about pro wrestling that happened before 1997. The ignorance in your post is not only overwhelming, but it's damn insulting.

What did the Von Erich's due? Do you mean besides being literally the biggest stars in North America in the early 80's? Up to and even during the beginning of Hulkamania? Please go look at their feud with the Freebirds. If you actually are a wrestling fan, and not just some guy that trolls wrestling boards, you'll thank yourself for learning about it. It was incredible.

There is no way not to justify that David, Kerry and Kevin all earned their spots in any professional wrestling Hall of Fame. Mike and Chris of course not, but them being there on a family induction isn't the worst thing in the world either.

As for your 'nobodies' like Muraco, Studd, JYD, Santana, Slaughter, Orton, Orndorff, Sheik and Simmons? Gawd man, please get an education. 99% of every person who's ever laced up boots would give their left nut to be on the level of 'nobodies' like those guys.

 

[ilapierre]

MrMojoRisin: You must be a troll for disagreeing with my opinion. You like how I turn that around? So what am I ignorant about? I've been a fan of wrestling since 1988 and in about 1992 I ended up researching wrestling history like crazy. I still research old footage of many promotions like WWWF, NWA and AWA. I get what there is to get buddy. The Von Erich family has a case for being inducted into the NWA or AWA HOFs for their minor contributions there. But what did this family do in WWF? What was so amazing about this family and their contributions to the sport that makes them so worthy of being in the Hall of Fame of an organization only one of the seven worked for temporarily with very little success? Really, man, if anyone's a troll, it's gotta be the one asking a question like 'What did the Von Erich's due?' The proper spelling of the word would be 'do'. Only a troll would put so little effort into making a bad point.

The Von Erichs vs the Freebirds. How long did that last? Most of the Von Erichs were dead by 23. Might have been a great feud but I doubt heavily the Von Erichs that lived past, or died before, 23 were considered by ANYONE the biggest stars in wrestling before Hulk Hogan. If my memory serves me right Randy Savage was wrestling outside the WWE during this time and was creating quite a name for himself. He was wrestling memorable gems against guys like Jerry Lawler and Leaping Lanny. Bob Backlund was WWE champ for 6 years. Jerry Lawler was huge everywhere and was the AWA champ. Nick Bockwinkel was still going strong. Ric Flair was the man of the hour. He gave all those Von Erichs their only memorable singles matches and it's the only reason they're even on the map in the first place. Flair was the draw. In the tag division, the Freebirds were the draw. The Von Erichs had all the potential in the world and should have been deserving. But one Von Erich would kill himself and another would step in to wrestle the tribute match or fill in for the tag title match and that's the way they racked up titles..being booked to win in memory of their loved ones. Almost every title won by a Von Erich was in a match dedicated to a deceased family member. Without all the death, there'd be no titles. Their legacy was built on tragedy, not on career longevity or accomplishments. Hey, would DDP deserve to be in the HOF if he killed himself a few years into his career? Or because he had just one amazing feud carried by Randy Savage? If Marty Jannetty had killed himself in 1992, would he deserve to be inducted because he and Shawn had a great feud a few years before with the Hart Foundation. Or because he was sidekicked memorably through the Barbershop window one Saturday afternoon? And how can you justify David and Kevin being in the HOF? They never wrestled a match in WWE. Kevin is a blip on the wrestling radar. I understand that some of the hall of famers, like Mil Mascaras for example, never wrestled a match in WWE either. But his contributions to wrestling in general were legendary. He was around for decades and that makes him deserving. Guys as legendary as Sting who never wrestled a day in WWE but worked their asses off for years wherever they were should make it some day too. Great Muta and Masa Chono should definitely be in there 'due' to their accomplishments in Japan. The WWE HOF shouldn't include some of the WWE mid carders like KoKo or JYD who had two or three good years and were about as important to the history of wrestling as Doink the Clown..but at least they were WWE personalities who a lot of us can say we recognize because they were on the biggest stage of them all. But to include nobodies who never wrestled a day in their life for WWE and killed themselves in their early 20s like the Von Erichs? That's ridiculous. Texas Tornado was no bigger than Koko or JYD and at least the latter had much more entertaining gimmicks and were beloved by fans. Like the rest of the Von Erichs, Kerry had all the potential in the world. But he killed himself just like the rest. I don't see Chris Benoit in the Hall. Perhaps he needed to have 5 just as fucked up brothers. He may be the best mat technician in wrestling history but because of two atrocious acts his illustrious past and 20 year career has been swept under the rug forever. But we'll always have the Von Erichs and their two or three years of minor contributions being carried by established stars outside of the WWE. Combined, the entire Von Erich clan didn't have one tenth the success of Benoit.

I have 10 years of post secondary education and I've been a journalist since 2000. So I don't think it's an education I'm missing to understand your logic. I have a really strong handle on wrestling history and I've had it since the early 90s. Muraco, Studd, JYD, Santana, Slaughter, Orton, Orndorff, Sheik and Simmons..all these guys you think are deserving..they are FILLER. The MLB Hall of Fame does not include second string players. The NHL Hall of Fame doesn't include career second or third liners. The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame includes only musicians who've shaped rock and roll history. I don't get how Don Muraco shaped anything. John Studd participated in an incredibly dull years long feud with Andre (so dull Andre apparently fell asleep during one of their matches). JYD wore a chain and head butted everyone. Tito Santana was pushed to the moon yet had no charisma. Stars as huge as Savage and Sammartino couldn't even get him over. Slaugter played no significant role anywhere except in WWE during the Gulf War as he was in the right place in the right time in a gimmick feud. Bob Orton had a famous son 20 years after the fact. Orndorff was in the main event at WM 1 and was Hogan's rag doll for about a year. Iron Sheik was a transitional champ since Backlund wouldn't drop directly to Hogan. Ron Simmons was pushed unsuccessfully as WCW champ and he had a decent run with APA. How does any of these minor contributions translate into a HOF induction? Lanny Poffo's Genius character had just as much potential as the Texas Tornado character but neither were used properly. How is Kerry any more deserving? Poffo was a memorable manager of one of the all time greats Curt Henning and also led the Beverly Bros. His heel poems generated crazy heat. He has a victory over Hulk Hogan. He also has multiple victories over such legends as Jerry Lawler and Randy Savage. The heel segment Poffo led when Savage was crowned King of the Ring in 1989 is now one of the all time classics. Poffo was that great on the mic. Do you remember him during his Grand Prix wrestling days? It was during his time there that he cemented himself as a legend in Eastern Canada. Poffo played just a big part in the big league WWE (or wherever else he was) as any Von Erich in the territories.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Wow. Just wow.

MrMojoRisin: You must be a troll for disagreeing with my opinion. You like how I turn that around?

Again... wow.

So what am I ignorant about?

So, so much.

I've been a fan of wrestling since 1988 and in about 1992 I ended up researching wrestling history like crazy. I still research old footage of many promotions like WWWF, NWA and AWA. I get what there is to get buddy.

Then please start showing that. Because so far, both your opinion and your knowledge has been completely laughable.

The Von Erich family has a case for being inducted into the NWA or AWA HOFs for their minor contributions there. But what did this family do in WWF?

It doesn't matter what they did in the WWF. For the last several years now, the WWE has been moving more towards their Hall of Fame being a professional wrestling HOF, and not just a company HOF. Their alumni get top priority of course, but they have been honoring guys that didn't work for them. Why should the fact that the Von Erich's worked their family territory in Texas be held against them?

Really, man, if anyone's a troll, it's gotta be the one asking a question like 'What did the Von Erich's due?' The proper spelling of the word would be 'do'. Only a troll would put so little effort into making a bad point.

Spelling? Uh yeah. Sorry buddy, but pulling out the grammar nazi card on a message board doesn't ever win you points.

The Von Erichs vs the Freebirds. How long did that last? Most of the Von Erichs were dead by 23. Might have been a great feud but I doubt heavily the Von Erichs that lived past, or died before, 23 were considered by ANYONE the biggest stars in wrestling before Hulk Hogan.

David Von Erich - born 1958 - died 1984 (26 years old)
Kerry Von Erich - born 1960 - died 1993 (33 years old)
Kevin Von Erich - born 1957 -

These were the Von Erich's. Let's not include Mike (who was pushed into the business by Fritz, never wanted to be a part of it, and probably would be alive today if Fritz let him be a musician like he wanted to be instead), or Chris (who should have been kept further away from the business than Mike, because he had brittle bone disease and couldn't even take the simplest bumps without breaking a bone). David, Kerry and Kevin were the Von Erich's. All future NWA champions as they were talked about by those in the know.

The Von Erich/Fabulous Freebird feud was one of the most important feuds of the 80's. It made WCCW one of the hottest territories in the United States. Parts of this feud have been reused for years in hot angles. Seriously, watch some of it.

And you claim to have studied wrestling history extensively, but you don't seem to be aware of exactly how over the Von Erich's were? I call bullshit on that claim.

If my memory serves me right Randy Savage was wrestling outside the WWE during this time and was creating quite a name for himself. He was wrestling memorable gems against guys like Jerry Lawler and Leaping Lanny. Bob Backlund was WWE champ for 6 years. Jerry Lawler was huge everywhere and was the AWA champ. Nick Bockwinkel was still going strong. Ric Flair was the man of the hour. He gave all those Von Erichs their only memorable singles matches and it's the only reason they're even on the map in the first place. Flair was the draw. In the tag division, the Freebirds were the draw.

Great, you know a bunch of names. Yes, all those guys were great during that time, but none of them were as over as the Von Erich boys. None of them.

The Von Erichs had all the potential in the world and should have been deserving. But one Von Erich would kill himself and another would step in to wrestle the tribute match or fill in for the tag title match and that's the way they racked up titles..being booked to win in memory of their loved ones. Almost every title won by a Von Erich was in a match dedicated to a deceased family member. Without all the death, there'd be no titles.

What?

Kerry Von Erich won the NWA title in a tribute to David, that is true. But I think you need to recheck your history books. That title switch had been arranged before David's passing, and it was actually supposed to be David Von Erich who got that run with the title. David was probably the best of the bunch, and there were many in the NWA who championed him becoming the traveling champ over Flair. This was around the time that Crockett got control of the title over the board, so of course Flair remained the traveling champ.

That is literally the only title a Von Erich won that I remember happening like you claim they all happened.

Their legacy was built on tragedy, not on career longevity or accomplishments.

Their legacy ended up being defined by their tragedy. It was absolutely not built upon it.

Hey, would DDP deserve to be in the HOF if he killed himself a few years into his career? Or because he had just one amazing feud carried by Randy Savage? If Marty Jannetty had killed himself in 1992, would he deserve to be inducted because he and Shawn had a great feud a few years before with the Hart Foundation. Or because he was sidekicked memorably through the Barbershop window one Saturday afternoon?

Congratulations. With a couple horrible examples, you just proved that you've spent all this time arguing about a family you know nothing about.

And how can you justify David and Kevin being in the HOF? They never wrestled a match in WWE. Kevin is a blip on the wrestling radar. I understand that some of the hall of famers, like Mil Mascaras for example, never wrestled a match in WWE either. But his contributions to wrestling in general were legendary. He was around for decades and that makes him deserving. Guys as legendary as Sting who never wrestled a day in WWE but worked their asses off for years wherever they were should make it some day too. Great Muta and Masa Chono should definitely be in there 'due' to their accomplishments in Japan.

How can I justify them? Simple. They deserve it. I've already stated that the WWE HOF isn't just a company HOF anymore, so you can throw the whole "but they never wrestled for the WWE" card out the window. It doesn't apply anymore.

I will say though. I find it pretty funny that you include Sting as one of your non-WWE wrestling examples. Another board I read regularly, which actually has guys like Melzer as members, as well as a lot of ex-workers and guys who have a vote for the WONHOF, have been having an in depth discussion about whether or not Sting is a HOF worthy wrestler. There's a lot of compelling arguments that he isn't.

The WWE HOF shouldn't include some of the WWE mid carders like KoKo or JYD who had two or three good years and were about as important to the history of wrestling as Doink the Clown..but at least they were WWE personalities who a lot of us can say we recognize because they were on the biggest stage of them all.

I'm really starting to wonder how closed your mind really is? The biggest stage of them all? You really are a WWF mark aren't you?

But to include nobodies who never wrestled a day in their life for WWE and killed themselves in their early 20s like the Von Erichs? That's ridiculous. Texas Tornado was no bigger than Koko or JYD and at least the latter had much more entertaining gimmicks and were beloved by fans. Like the rest of the Von Erichs, Kerry had all the potential in the world. But he killed himself just like the rest.

You're trolling again guy. Just because you know nothing about them, doesn't mean anything.

I don't see Chris Benoit in the Hall. Perhaps he needed to have 5 just as fucked up brothers. He may be the best mat technician in wrestling history but because of two atrocious acts his illustrious past and 20 year career has been swept under the rug forever. But we'll always have the Von Erichs and their two or three years of minor contributions being carried by established stars outside of the WWE. Combined, the entire Von Erich clan didn't have one tenth the success of Benoit.

Once again... wow.

I have 10 years of post secondary education and I've been a journalist since 2000. So I don't think it's an education I'm missing to understand your logic.

Oh this should be good. Please, oh please, can you share who you write for? Please, share a link.

And I don't care if you have 20 years of post secondary education. Last time I checked, there weren't many university courses on professional wrestling history. THAT is what you need an education in if you plan on pretending like you're such an authority on it.

I have a really strong handle on wrestling history and I've had it since the early 90s.

No you don't.

Muraco, Studd, JYD, Santana, Slaughter, Orton, Orndorff, Sheik and Simmons..all these guys you think are deserving..they are FILLER.

You just proved it.

The MLB Hall of Fame does not include second string players. The NHL Hall of Fame doesn't include career second or third liners. The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame includes only musicians who've shaped rock and roll history. I don't get how Don Muraco shaped anything. John Studd participated in an incredibly dull years long feud with Andre (so dull Andre apparently fell asleep during one of their matches). JYD wore a chain and head butted everyone. Tito Santana was pushed to the moon yet had no charisma. Stars as huge as Savage and Sammartino couldn't even get him over. Slaugter played no significant role anywhere except in WWE during the Gulf War as he was in the right place in the right time in a gimmick feud. Bob Orton had a famous son 20 years after the fact. Orndorff was in the main event at WM 1 and was Hogan's rag doll for about a year. Iron Sheik was a transitional champ since Backlund wouldn't drop directly to Hogan. Ron Simmons was pushed unsuccessfully as WCW champ and he had a decent run with APA. How does any of these minor contributions translate into a HOF induction?

Muraco - fantastic heel. Worked major programs with Snuka and Backlund. Hot territory wrestler pre-WWF. Top draw in the WWF in the early/mid 80's.
Studd - worked with all the top guys. Famous worldwide even with non fans. Huge draw in the 80's.
JYD - pre-WWF was one of the biggest draws in the South period. In the WWF, was the #2 face behind Hogan. Over the top charisma. Made money for every company he worked for
Slaughter - great territory heel. Mega face in the WWF before Hogan came in. Returned as a mega heel later in his career. Feud with the Iron Sheik is considered legendary.
Orton - major territory heel. Considered one of the best workers in the world in his day.
Orndorff - great territory face and heel. Was the lynchpin for one of the biggest Hogan feuds that the WWF had in the 80's.
Iron Sheik - amazing territory heel. Was also given the title to drop to Hogan because of how believable he was in the ring. Hogan dominating the Sheik like he did at MSG helps make Hogan in the first place. An actual wrestling prodigy. Don't let the Sheiky act today fool you.
Simmons - the weakest of the bunch you mentioned, I'll give you that.

Lanny Poffo's Genius character had just as much potential as the Texas Tornado character but neither were used properly.

So, a character that the WWF made it's #2 champion virtually upon his debut in the company had as much potential as a manager character to you?

How is Kerry any more deserving? Poffo was a memorable manager of one of the all time greats Curt Henning and also led the Beverly Bros. His heel poems generated crazy heat.

I liked the Genius. The problem with him was, they'd wasted Poffo in the jobber ranks for years before finally giving him that character. By that point, he was as believable as Paul Roma as a top guy.

He has a victory over Hulk Hogan. He also has multiple victories over such legends as Jerry Lawler and Randy Savage.

A countout victory over Hogan that was meant to further the angle with Perfect is what you're using here? Multiple victories in his fathers territory you credit him with? But you refuse to give credit for anything any Von Erich did, which at the very least... is exactly comparable? Your bias here is showing.

But let's look at this.

Poffo did very well in his dad's ICW. The Von Erich's obviously did very well in their dads WCCW.

At the Von Erich's peak, WCCW was considered one of, if not the hottest territory in the United States. At the Poffo's peak, ICW was still never considered a particularly hot territory.

ICW was still alive when the Poffo's left for Lawler's CWA. They did so for more exposure. CWA at it's peak never received the type of exposure that WCCW did at it's peak with the Von Erich's on top.

The heel segment Poffo led when Savage was crowned King of the Ring in 1989 is now one of the all time classics. Poffo was that great on the mic. Do you remember him during his Grand Prix wrestling days? It was during his time there that he cemented himself as a legend in Eastern Canada. Poffo played just a big part in the big league WWE (or wherever else he was) as any Von Erich in the territories.

Like I said. I liked Lanny. I was a fan. But even Lanny wouldn't say that he was ever bigger than the Von Erich boys.

To put it plain and simply after this entire novel we've both written here...

if you think the Von Erich's were nobodies in the history of wrestling, then you simply do not know what you are talking about.

 

[Da Solo]

To be dead honest, I don't blame WWE for not taking this deal AT THE MOMENT. What I mean by that is: if Lanny holds up this supposed deal for another couple of years, then maybe they should consider it, but it seems way too easy to say that Randy, regardless if how much disdain he had for Vince, wanted the whole family in when they JUST START ASKING the family for approval. Add to that the fact that his death is still relatively fresh, and this seems like an easy way for Lanny to slip himself in.

Like I said, maybe I'm wrong and maybe Randy really did want it that way. But let's be honest: Savage was the only one out of the three Lanny had put forward who's worthy of being entered into the HOF (regardless of how irrelevant it is to the fickle IWC). If Lanny should ever get in, he's have to be one of those career midcard filler spots they use just to flesh out the inductees list far into the future, like in 2037 or something.

 

[ilapierre]

Mrmojorisin: I applaud you. I absolutely love your last post (minus you calling me a troll and ignorantly discarding everything I had to say). Honestly, up until tonight I did not know anybody on earth gave a shit about the Von Erichs. I'm pleased to know there's somebody out there with an extensive knowledge that goes beyond my own understanding of wrestling history. Seriously, it's refreshing for once to have someone argue so strongly for a family of wrestlers most of us could give two shits about. Perhaps you are right and I'm ignorant for not being old enough or interested enough in digging up old footage of the Von Erichs. I've seen some stuff but obviously nowhere near as much as you to be an 'authority' on the Von Erichs or 1980s territory wrestling. I'm not gonna pretend to be an expert on anything not WWE or WCW-oriented. I would not consider myself a WWE mark because, frankly, I've lost track of things over the past decade. I was a huge WWE mark until about 1995 and switched over to WCW until it was bought out in 2001. Randy Savage is my all time favourite wrestler and yes I'm completely biased toward him, his father, his brother and any company Savage ever worked for.

As for your attack on my argument, here's my response. Good on WWE for honouring non-WWE alumni. The Von Erichs shouldn't be excluded because they worked in Texas. Like Lanny Poffo, they should be excluded for not really having a strong enough impact on the sport. Perhaps you're right and I'm just extremely ignorant. But this is my point. Maybe the Von Erichs were huge in Texas and the mid south, but there are other just as deserving and much more well known wrestlers past and present that are huge all over the world or at least in actual countries. These wrestlers entertained hundreds of thousands for decades yet they'll never be inducted into the WWE HOF. The way I see it and the way I'm sure many others do too, the whole Von Erich family was inducted because a) Fritz was worthy and b) their tragic life story is a selling point.

Ok so you claim Fritz and 3 Von Erichs count as the real Von Erichs and 3 others don't. The 3 that don't died before 23. David Von Erich lived 3 years longer than 3 of his siblings. He lived till the ripe old age of 26. How many 26 year olds in wrestling history had already accomplished enough to deserve induction in any Hall of Fame let alone for one belonging to a company they never ever worked for? None. The Rock was 26 in 1998 but he worked for WWE. I'm still not quite sure that The Rock was quite Hall of Fame worthy in early 98. And The Rock wasn't pushed to the moon by his father with so many titles at such a young age either.

Ok so Kevin hasn't died yet. I'm reading up on him right now. He wrestled a couple of matches in the WWWF. He beat Bruiser Brody. He teamed up with his brothers. Feuded with the Freebirds. His best known feud appears to be with Chris Adams, yawn, and he lost a couple of close matches to Ric Flair. I've seen Flair wrestle some close matches with Paul Roma and Jim Powers. Like I said before, Kevin's career appears to be a blip on the wrestling radar.

Now let's take a look at Kerry. He lived 10 years longer than 3 of his brothers and outlived David by seven years. It appears Fritz put over 30 of his 40 titles on him to get him over. He beat Ric Flair to win one big league world title (NWA) in a tribute match to his brother (a feel good story booking move as Kerry was never meant to be thrust into main eventing) and held it for a whopping 18 days. He made it to the WWE 6 years later and got to beat a legend as big as Curt Henning (probably because Henning's dad owed Von Erich's dad a favour). That's cool. I already knew that though. He held the IC belt for 3 months while Mr. Perfect took a break. After losing the IC title he was destined for bigger and better things as this now catapulted him into the same league with a guy below the mid-card, Dino Bravo, whom he feuded with up until Wrestlemania 7. Afterward, he teamed up a lot and often to take on such amazing wrestlers as Paul Roma and Hercules. Teamed up at Survivor Series that year with mid card legends and future hall of famers like Sgt Slaughter, Hacksaw, and Tito Santana against even more undeserving future hall of famers Iron Sheik, Bezerker, Skinner and Hercules. His team won but he didn't eliminate anybody. Quote from his wikipedia page 'Kerry's push eventually ended as he was relegated to jobber to the stars status. He left the WWF in July 1992.' Hmmm this guy made that company's Hall of Fame? He didn't even get a countout victory over the best wrestling entertainer in wrestling history. Besides Ric Flair, the biggest name almost every wrestler has a victory over, Von Erich never came as close as the just as deserving Lanny Poffo in beating a star of Savage or Lawler's caliber. I see here that Kerry at least feuded with Lawler so that in itself is at least an accomplishment. He feuded with Chris Adams, Jake Roberts, Gino Hernandez yawn. Feuded with the Freebirds. Fought Ken Patera. I'm not really seeing anything here that stands out as Hall of Fame worthy. Like I said before, one big feud carried by the heel Freebirds doesn't really merit Hall of Fame induction in a company most of the family never even worked for.

Ok. So I know nothing about the Von Erichs although the more I read the more comfortable I feel with my original argument. I will dig up their feud with the Freebirds on youtube and I do trust I'll enjoy it. Maybe it'll completely change my mind. I just don't know though how this feud itself makes this family of wrestlers Hall of Fame worthy. I guess it does for those few people around who are old enough to remember them and who were also located in the mid-south in the early to mid 1980s. Perhaps the Von Erich family is deserving for other reasons..maybe they had a profound impact behind the scenes on other wrestlers who would go on to bigger and better things like Bret Hart and Steve Austin. Had they all lived perhaps they would have joined the WWE as a stable and been as big as the Harts. David could have led the New Generation instead of Bret, Fritz could come in and be Stu, Kerry could be like Owen, Kevin could be like Neidhart. It could have been like one big family affair and things could have been different for the Von Erich family. But it never happened. The potential was there and they never realized it. I guess some fans got a taste of them in the territories. From what Mrraisin's telling me, they were just about as big as Hulk Hogan for a period of time before Hogan. So, for some people on a much smaller scale, they allegedly had a profound impact. I just have a hard time feeling like they are worthy enough to be honoured on such a grand scale. But I suppose if KoKo or JYD or Tito are honoured then so should this entire family. Yet so should Angelo and Lanny with such low standards for entrance.

However I call bullshit on your statement that in the early 1980s Ric Flair, Jerry Lawler, Randy Savage, Bob Backlund and Nick Bockwinkel were not as 'over' as the 'Von Erich boys'. This is where I'm gonna be rude like you and call a troll a troll. You say I have a bias against the Von Erichs. Nope. My bias is for the Poffo family. I could care less about the Von Erichs because, minus Fritz, they didn't live long enough (or in Kevin's case didn't have enough charisma) to have any real impact on me. It doesn't make me ignorant that as a Canadian who was about 3 years old when they were 'as big as Hogan' I knew nothing about territory wrestling in Texas or the mid South. It's not my fault or anybody else's fault that we didn't live in that small little world in the early 1980s when we had no Texas wrestling channel or access to Texas area wrestling matches. If anything can be read into here it's that you are biased in favour of the Von Erichs and you know ten times more about the Von Erichs than anybody I've ever met.

You say I can throw the 'they never wrestled in the WWE' card out the window. Ok. But they never did enough wherever they were to justify entrance into the WWE HOF. I know nothing about them. You're right, compared to you I know very little. Compared to the average fan I know just about as much. That's where the problem lies. They had very little impact in the mainstream. That's the reason they really aren't Hall of Fame worthy.

When I say WWE is the biggest stage of them all, that doesn't make me a WWE mark. WWE is the biggest stage of them all. It's just a reality. Sure NWA was just as big or bigger up until the 1970s. But by the time the Von Erichs were big in that deteriorating world, WWF was center stage.

You read a wrestling board, with Melzer as one of its members, where many do not believe Sting is worthy for the WWE Hall of Fame. You say there's a lot of compelling arguments that he's not worthy? You made a pretty convincing argument for the Von Erichs but this part of your argument is extremely weak. Don't know why you bothered to bring this up. You believe the Von Erich family as a whole deserves to be in the WWE Hall of Fame but someone as huge as Sting doesn't. A guy whose pinned or forced Hulk Hogan to submit 8 times in his career isn't worthy of the Hall of Fame. A guy who has fought almost anybody and everybody he could face in 30 years of wrestling history? The guy who was for many years in WCW what Hulk Hogan was for WWE. There is absolutely no argument in my mind that says Sting isn't worthy of Hall of Fame induction. At least not in a world where Koko Beware and Bob Uecker gain entrance. Sorry man. This part of your argument sucks. You did do a good job on selling some of Hall of Fame guys as better than they actually were. You do make good points in favour of the guys I don't feel belong there. But your points are not strong enough to sell me on any of them except maybe Sheiky baby. Perhaps I've unfairly valued that entire list because they are in the Hall of Fame while other more deserving guys aren't. I just feel a Hall of Fame should allow 2 entrants a year and they should be the best of the best. You're right a guy like JYD was hugely over and was big in the South for years. To me he's borderline but he was still never the best of the best.

 

[123NewChamp]

Good Morning everyone.......

I was Reading here on wrestlezone yesterday that Kevin Nash is being considered as a top inductee for the WWE Hall Of Fame Class of 2013. My question is plain and simple, do you think Kevin Nash deserves a spot in the WWE Hall Of Fame in 2013? Yes, No, or Maybe Later.........

Here's how I see it Nash was a Former WWF Champion for a little over a year. He was a former WWF Intercontinetal Champion and WWF Tag Team Champion. In WCW He's a former 5 time WCW World Heavyweight Champion, 9 time WCW Tag Team Champion and one of the originators of Wrestling's biggest most popular factions the NWO. Also he was a TNA Heavyweight Champion and a TNA Tag Team Champion.

Now his First WWF Stint as Big Daddy Cool Diesel to me was pretty legit. Yeah he was a member of the backstage democracy which was the Kliq. But I can honestly say that his 1993-1996 WWF stint was mostly him. It sucks that the WWE's lowest ratings were when he was WWF Champion back in 1995 but anyway. Onto WCW, he became a more dominant force, a little more cocky than his time in WWF as Diesel. But I think as his time in WCW continued till it's closing I noticed he got hold to the top stars and top management and rode the coat-tails to run WCW and to keep him at the top while keeping others well deserving like Chris Jericho, Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, and Dean Malenko down and out of the picture of being the top star they could be. And when he went to TNA, much haven't changed. He was no different.

So considering his time in all 3 organizations, if he would've been more time as the Diesel Character and a slight charater change based off of what he did, he would be a reasonable candidate for the Hall Of Fame. Like I said in my opinion the Diesel Character was legit and I think it was him actually wrestling and earning what he had at the time. But after hearing many backstage stories from his WCW and TNA Days about him not being well liked backstage, I can honestly say 1996-1998 were good years for Nash as well but he just fell off to me in 1999, and when he beaten Goldberg he was not a worthy champion in WCW.

Dont get me wrong I have respect for Kevin Nash Career, but if he didn't have his way all the time and had much say so I would've respected his candidacy for Hall Of Fame 2013 more. I basically feel the same way about him as I do about HHH. And consider that a factor too. Both were in the "Kliq" and are the best of friends with Hall, HBK, and Kid. And with HHH as COO, do you think that's going to be a factor in Nash getting in next year?

But as far as I'm concerned I think Nash is Hall Of Fame Worthy, but not now. There's more worthy names that have not yet been inducted that should get the nod before him. Foley, Taker (When He Fully Retires.) Lex Luger, Goldberg, Vader, The British Bulldog, and a few others.

So what's your Opinion? Should Nash be Inducted? Yes, No, or Later On? Looking forward to hearing the comments.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Mrmojorisin: I applaud you. I absolutely love your last post (minus you calling me a troll and ignorantly discarding everything I had to say). Honestly, up until tonight I did not know anybody on earth gave a shit about the Von Erichs. I'm pleased to know there's somebody out there with an extensive knowledge that goes beyond my own understanding of wrestling history. Seriously, it's refreshing for once to have someone argue so strongly for a family of wrestlers most of us could give two shits about. Perhaps you are right and I'm ignorant for not being old enough or interested enough in digging up old footage of the Von Erichs. I've seen some stuff but obviously nowhere near as much as you to be an 'authority' on the Von Erichs or 1980s territory wrestling. I'm not gonna pretend to be an expert on anything not WWE or WCW-oriented. I would not consider myself a WWE mark because, frankly, I've lost track of things over the past decade. I was a huge WWE mark until about 1995 and switched over to WCW until it was bought out in 2001. Randy Savage is my all time favourite wrestler and yes I'm completely biased toward him, his father, his brother and any company Savage ever worked for.

I'm trying to tell if this is genuine, or if it's backhanded.

But let's keep this in mind. You don't want to pretend to be an authority on the territory days... then great. So remember that you're not, and as such, you don't know what you're talking about with virtually every single wrestler you've mentioned in this thread, because these were all guys who's heydays were in the territories, and that was an entirely different world than the national company days that you understand.

That's one of those things that pisses me off when people talk about someone like Lanny Poffo today, only remembering the underneath guy he played in the WWF. The guys ring work was excellent, but he just got pigeonholed into a certain role on the national stage. In the territories though, before there even was a 'national stage', he was a top guy. Many of the underneath guys in the WWF at that time were in the same boat, because they were maybe a little older, and could be counted on to put the guys over that needed to be put over. That's what Lanny was.

As for your attack on my argument, here's my response. Good on WWE for honouring non-WWE alumni. The Von Erichs shouldn't be excluded because they worked in Texas. Like Lanny Poffo, they should be excluded for not really having a strong enough impact on the sport. Perhaps you're right and I'm just extremely ignorant. But this is my point. Maybe the Von Erichs were huge in Texas and the mid south, but there are other just as deserving and much more well known wrestlers past and present that are huge all over the world or at least in actual countries. These wrestlers entertained hundreds of thousands for decades yet they'll never be inducted into the WWE HOF. The way I see it and the way I'm sure many others do too, the whole Von Erich family was inducted because a) Fritz was worthy and b) their tragic life story is a selling point.

On this subject, yes you are ignorant, and you would do yourself a favor to remember your own words, and not pretend to be an authority here. Before their tragedies started piling up, the Von Erich brothers were the biggest thing in the country. McMahon absolutely wanted them, but he couldn't get Fritz to give them up. Flair's mentioned that some on the NWA board wanted David to be the next long term champion. Back then, the NWA title was still considered the most important title in the wrestling business (yes more important than the WWF title at the time), and they were incredibly serious about who they'd let represent them.

And yes, the Von Erich's were incredibly popular throughout the world. Let me give you a personal example.

In 1986 I was in about the 7th grade, and me and my friends were just starting to get into wrestling. We were talking about our favorite wrestlers in class one day, and of course the girls were getting annoyed with us because we weren't paying attention to them. So THEY started talking about the wrestlers they thought were the hottest, and they started talking about Kerry and Kevin Von Erich. Funny things about that... none of these girls were wrestling fans or knew much beyond Hulk Hogan... yet they knew who the Von Erich's were. Other funny thing... we lived in Canada, and we didn't get WCCW wrestling on TV, yet these non wrestling fan 12 year old girls still knew all about the Von Erich's.

That kinda says a little bit about how big those guys really were back then, doesn't it?

Ok so you claim Fritz and 3 Von Erichs count as the real Von Erichs and 3 others don't. The 3 that don't died before 23. David Von Erich lived 3 years longer than 3 of his siblings. He lived till the ripe old age of 26. How many 26 year olds in wrestling history had already accomplished enough to deserve induction in any Hall of Fame let alone for one belonging to a company they never ever worked for? None. The Rock was 26 in 1998 but he worked for WWE. I'm still not quite sure that The Rock was quite Hall of Fame worthy in early 98. And The Rock wasn't pushed to the moon by his father with so many titles at such a young age either.

They got inducted as a FAMILY, because their family happens to be one of the most important in wrestling history. I say focus on the 3 brothers who actually made the Von Erich name because they are why the family became so important in the business (the other part because Fritz was one of the most powerful promoters in the business).

I've already mentioned David enough times though, that I'm not about to keep repeating myself for you. You've also admitted that you're ignorant on this subject. Please stop basking in your ignorance.

Ok so Kevin hasn't died yet. I'm reading up on him right now. He wrestled a couple of matches in the WWWF. He beat Bruiser Brody. He teamed up with his brothers. Feuded with the Freebirds. His best known feud appears to be with Chris Adams, yawn, and he lost a couple of close matches to Ric Flair. I've seen Flair wrestle some close matches with Paul Roma and Jim Powers. Like I said before, Kevin's career appears to be a blip on the wrestling radar.

Ignorance. You'd really help yourself out if you quit pretending that you're the know-it-all... and went out and learned-a-little-bit.

Comparing Kevin Von Erich to Roma or Powers? Yeah you're trolling again.

Now let's take a look at Kerry. He lived 10 years longer than 3 of his brothers and outlived David by seven years. It appears Fritz put over 30 of his 40 titles on him to get him over. He beat Ric Flair to win one big league world title (NWA) in a tribute match to his brother (a feel good story booking move as Kerry was never meant to be thrust into main eventing) and held it for a whopping 18 days. He made it to the WWE 6 years later and got to beat a legend as big as Curt Henning (probably because Henning's dad owed Von Erich's dad a favour). That's cool. I already knew that though. He held the IC belt for 3 months while Mr. Perfect took a break. After losing the IC title he was destined for bigger and better things as this now catapulted him into the same league with a guy below the mid-card, Dino Bravo, whom he feuded with up until Wrestlemania 7. Afterward, he teamed up a lot and often to take on such amazing wrestlers as Paul Roma and Hercules. Teamed up at Survivor Series that year with mid card legends and future hall of famers like Sgt Slaughter, Hacksaw, and Tito Santana against even more undeserving future hall of famers Iron Sheik, Bezerker, Skinner and Hercules. His team won but he didn't eliminate anybody. Quote from his wikipedia page 'Kerry's push eventually ended as he was relegated to jobber to the stars status. He left the WWF in July 1992.' Hmmm this guy made that company's Hall of Fame? He didn't even get a countout victory over the best wrestling entertainer in wrestling history. Besides Ric Flair, the biggest name almost every wrestler has a victory over, Von Erich never came as close as the just as deserving Lanny Poffo in beating a star of Savage or Lawler's caliber. I see here that Kerry at least feuded with Lawler so that in itself is at least an accomplishment. He feuded with Chris Adams, Jake Roberts, Gino Hernandez yawn. Feuded with the Freebirds. Fought Ken Patera. I'm not really seeing anything here that stands out as Hall of Fame worthy. Like I said before, one big feud carried by the heel Freebirds doesn't really merit Hall of Fame induction in a company most of the family never even worked for.

More trolling. You've already admitted you don't know anything about this wrestling? Why the hell are you still trying to act like an authority on it anyways? Do you think reading a blurb on Wikipedia makes you some type of expert?

Ok. So I know nothing about the Von Erichs

Yet you won't stop pretending that you do.

although the more I read the more comfortable I feel with my original argument.

See

I will dig up their feud with the Freebirds on youtube and I do trust I'll enjoy it. Maybe it'll completely change my mind. I just don't know though how this feud itself makes this family of wrestlers Hall of Fame worthy. I guess it does for those few people around who are old enough to remember them and who were also located in the mid-south in the early to mid 1980s.

Please. Go watch the documentary. The WWE one, or even the WCCW one that got put out a few years earlier. Watch Youtube. Go to places like wrestlingclassics or kayfabememories. Learn something about the history of this business you love to talk about, and learn it from the people who lived it. Do it for the handful of us who are old enough to remember these guys, because us old guys are a dying breed (btw, I saw you post your age on another thread... I'm only a few years older than you).

Perhaps the Von Erich family is deserving for other reasons..maybe they had a profound impact behind the scenes on other wrestlers who would go on to bigger and better things like Bret Hart and Steve Austin. Had they all lived perhaps they would have joined the WWE as a stable and been as big as the Harts. David could have led the New Generation instead of Bret, Fritz could come in and be Stu, Kerry could be like Owen, Kevin could be like Neidhart. It could have been like one big family affair and things could have been different for the Von Erich family. But it never happened. The potential was there and they never realized it. I guess some fans got a taste of them in the territories. From what Mrraisin's telling me, they were just about as big as Hulk Hogan for a period of time before Hogan. So, for some people on a much smaller scale, they allegedly had a profound impact. I just have a hard time feeling like they are worthy enough to be honoured on such a grand scale. But I suppose if KoKo or JYD or Tito are honoured then so should this entire family. Yet so should Angelo and Lanny with such low standards for entrance.

More likely if the family had avoided their tragedies, that the Texas territory becomes bigger and the landscape of wrestling changes completely. WCCW had national exposure through ESPN. They had production values at the time that rivaled the WWF. They had a booker in Gary Hart that was creating fresh, compelling angles. WCCW could have hooked an older crowd on the national scale if backed by the 3 brothers all without their problems, and challenged the WWF. Crockett's territory would have been the one to suffer the most as a result, as they were skating by on a great setup by George Scott by that time, and Crockett was really losing it behind the scenes. McMahon likely still would have won out (he always had the deepest pockets), but the business we know today would have been different as a result.

However I call bullshit on your statement that in the early 1980s Ric Flair, Jerry Lawler, Randy Savage, Bob Backlund and Nick Bockwinkel were not as 'over' as the 'Von Erich boys'. This is where I'm gonna be rude like you and call a troll a troll. You say I have a bias against the Von Erichs. Nope. My bias is for the Poffo family. I could care less about the Von Erichs because, minus Fritz, they didn't live long enough (or in Kevin's case didn't have enough charisma) to have any real impact on me. It doesn't make me ignorant that as a Canadian who was about 3 years old when they were 'as big as Hogan' I knew nothing about territory wrestling in Texas or the mid South. It's not my fault or anybody else's fault that we didn't live in that small little world in the early 1980s when we had no Texas wrestling channel or access to Texas area wrestling matches. If anything can be read into here it's that you are biased in favour of the Von Erichs and you know ten times more about the Von Erichs than anybody I've ever met.

Then please, please, do some research and prove me wrong if you want to call bullshit. I'll wait.

And as for your comments about being Canadian and not having access? I've already addressed that (ironically addressing it before even reading that comment by you). I'm Canadian. I'm roughly the same age as you. I know all this stuff. What's your excuse?

Although there's nothing wrong with not knowing about any of it... just do like you said at the top, and quit pretending like you're a fucking authority anyways.

When I say WWE is the biggest stage of them all, that doesn't make me a WWE mark. WWE is the biggest stage of them all. It's just a reality. Sure NWA was just as big or bigger up until the 1970s. But by the time the Von Erichs were big in that deteriorating world, WWF was center stage.

Actually using their own terminology would make you a bit of a WWE mark. What's next? The Von Erich's aren't worthy because none of them ever had a 'Wrestlemania moment' either?

You read a wrestling board, with Melzer as one of its members, where many do not believe Sting is worthy for the WWE Hall of Fame. You say there's a lot of compelling arguments that he's not worthy? You made a pretty convincing argument for the Von Erichs but this part of your argument is extremely weak. Don't know why you bothered to bring this up. You believe the Von Erich family as a whole deserves to be in the WWE Hall of Fame but someone as huge as Sting doesn't. A guy whose pinned or forced Hulk Hogan to submit 8 times in his career isn't worthy of the Hall of Fame. A guy who has fought almost anybody and everybody he could face in 30 years of wrestling history? The guy who was for many years in WCW what Hulk Hogan was for WWE. There is absolutely no argument in my mind that says Sting isn't worthy of Hall of Fame induction. At least not in a world where Koko Beware and Bob Uecker gain entrance. Sorry man. This part of your argument sucks. You did do a good job on selling some of Hall of Fame guys as better than they actually were. You do make good points in favour of the guys I don't feel belong there. But your points are not strong enough to sell me on any of them except maybe Sheiky baby. Perhaps I've unfairly valued that entire list because they are in the Hall of Fame while other more deserving guys aren't. I just feel a Hall of Fame should allow 2 entrants a year and they should be the best of the best. You're right a guy like JYD was hugely over and was big in the South for years. To me he's borderline but he was still never the best of the best.

No you brought up Sting, and it made me laugh because I'd just finished reading this entire argument on how these insider guys didn't feel that he was HOF worthy. I happen to disagree with them. The guys been a main eventer for a quarter of a century. Few can say they've accomplished that. But the case that he's never been a great draw on his own, never really fully committed to his gimmick changes (Crow Sting ended up being Surfer Sting in different makeup, ect), didn't work to many truly great matches outside of his ones with Flair... there's a case to be made against him. Like I said, I disagree with it, but I can see the other side of the argument.

I just brought it up because you put him in there like he's such a no brainer, while blustering on like you're such an authority... while all these guys who actually ARE authorities are making these amazing cases against the guy. The irony of it was just too much for me to resist.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Kevin Nash will be in the WWE Hall of Fame someday, and rightly so. Personally, I was never a huge fan of Kevin Nash as far as watching him wrestle. To me, he was far better on promos than he was inside the ring. That's not to say that he wasn't involved in some good matches and feuds but Nash had to be carried inside the ring much of the time.

When you look at Nash's accomplishments as a whole, that in and of itself warrants induction. Nash was a big star in WWE in the mid 90s and went on to become an even bigger star in WCW. Nash was one of the original three members of the nWo with Scott Hall and later Hulk Hogan. With Hogan, Hall & Bischoff, Nash was part of one of the most innovative and biggest storylines in pro wrestling history. In terms of influence and relevance, the nWo is right up there with the likes of the Four Horsemen and DX. Kevin Nash was a big part of the initial success of the nWo.

I think Nash is overrated when it comes to his overall abilities, but he was an overall good "big man" that could hold his own on the mic with just about anybody. He won a lot of championships and was one of the guys that literally had the run of WCW during the last half decade or so of its existence. So yeah, Nash should be in the HOF someday.

Not sure when you'll see him there because according to a report I read a long while back, maybe six months or so ago, Nash said that being inducted into the HOF isn't a big deal for him. Nash would accept the honor but I don't think he'd really care either way.

 

[ilapierre]

Mrmojoraisin: I appreciate a logical and informative argument man and you are one of the best around here. There's nothing underhanded about that although you and I will probably never see eye to eye on the Von Erichs even if I watch their documentaries. But you have opened my eyes to the fact that the Von Erichs had an intriguing feud once. I also realize now there's still a lot more of major significance for me to learn about wrestling outside of WWE. I'm not the authority on the Von Erichs and I know very little about territorial wrestling besides what I've read and watched on youtube. I'm not obsessed with wrestling to the point where I can tell you about everything that ever happened in a territory in the 1980s. I was a WWE mark, a WCW mark and that's where my focus has always been. You are a few years older than me, I figured, and you live in Canada. That kinda shocked me. You know so much about the Von Erichs I figured you'd had to have been an American. The Von Erichs were good looking guys so I don't doubt that they were well known by women who knew very little about wrestling. I myself know very little about TNA but I know that Lacey Von Erich works (or worked) there and she's pretty damn cute. Doesn't mean she's done anything Hall of Fame worthy in her wrestling career yet though. Even if she's out lived all but two of the 6 Von Erich boys.

Anyway, it's difficult for me to argue you if you are going to dismiss me as a troll for calling the Von Erichs nobodies and knowing very little about the territorial wrestling. You're right the Von Erichs aren't nobodies to anyone who followed the territories. My bad. But I still think the Von Erichs weren't influential enough to be inducted in as a family. David was on route to a Hall of Fame career, Fritz should be in there but then that's where it ends for me. Although you think my opinion is garbage, and perhaps it is, I know that I'm not the only wrestling fan out there who has a problem with the Von Erichs being in the Hall of Fame and guys like Bruno, Backlund and Savage not. I can't make a very strong argument because you've defined the Hall of Fame not for what it should be but for what it is: A place that honours almost any wrestler, WWE or not, who wrestled a great deal in the territories leading up to and during the pivotal WWE years right around Hulkamania and Wrestlemania. That is what the WWE Hall of Fame does though so you're right and I'm wrong. The way the HOF is set up there is a strong case for the Von Erichs being there. Maybe I'm just an ignorant ass for feeling this way but I believe the WWE HOF should be more exclusive. It should honour far fewer wrestlers for overall legitimacy and I feel the HOF should only honour the very best in WWE history and the only the very best who wrestled outside of WWE. I feel a wrestler should be honoured for years of contribution and families should only be inducted if all of its members played a long term part in the sport on a larger stage. But the reality is it doesn't matter what I feel. KoKo Beware and Ron Simmons are in there so the Von Erichs should definitely be in there and while they're at it it wouldn't hurt to induct Angelo and Lanny because the reality is the Hall is pretty much all-inclusive.

The WWE HOF should have HOF-like standards for entrance. But the reality is WWE honours second string wrestlers who were big on a smaller scale in territories. They honour A and B list celebrities. They honour families whose members were hot for a very short period of time in a very small area and are only remembered by extremely obsessed wrestling fanatics who can tell you the life story of Bruiser Brody or Gary Hart. I feel there's about 40 guys in the WWE HOF that shouldn't be there and I feel WWE should cut down on who they add because at the rate they're going everybody is going to be in there. I can list off at least 100 more deserving wrestlers who'll never be in the Hall of Fame with the Von Erichs. Do I have to be an authority on territories of the 80s to know just how big the Von Erichs were for a short period of time and how good looking women all over North American found them? No. We're talking about the WWE Hall of Fame and I know my WWE and WCW history well enough to know this family had very little impact on me and the average wrestling fan worldwide. A lot of people I know are wrestling fans and they know very little if anything at all about the Von Erichs. How does it make me ignorant that I'm not an authority on the Von Erichs if a larger percentage of fans past and present are in the same boat as me? I'm not the only one who lived in the mid 80s and knew nothing of the Von Erichs until after the fact. I'm the majority. They didn't penetrate mainstream consciousness. That's all the authority I need when determining whether a family of wrestlers were influential enough on wrestling fans worldwide to deserve Hall of Fame inclusion. Your argument is like when some pretentious music fanatic claims they know so much about the history of music because they're aware of some obscure band from the 80s that had a cult following in a particular scene but disappeared after a couple of years and never really made it into mainstream consciousness. Just because you know something someone else doesn't doesn't about some micro moment in the past doesn't make you an all-knowing authority of the macro.

You feel NWA was still bigger than WWF in the early to mid 1980s. You feel like you know this and I don't because you can rhyme off the whole NWA roster of 1982 and I can't. Whatever. I believe that's just a matter of opinion. For you it's a common knowledge fact that you're right because you think it and you pride yourself on being intellectually superior to any troll who doesn't agree with you. It's pathetic how you use the 'you're not an authority' card when you don't agree with someone. It's my opinion that the NWA belt didn't mean as much as the WWF belt in the early 1980s. You say the NWA was serious about who they put the belt on but the belt was on everybody in the early 80s. In WWF the title was put on Bob Backlund in 78 and he held it till 83. Hogan won it in 84 and didn't lose it till 88. That's 3 champions in 10 years. The NWA title was a hot potato whenever Ric Flair, Harley Race or Dusty Rhodes were involved. All three are legends so whatever. Flair won and lost the title all the time although most of these title changes aren't recognized today. One of those short title changes was after David died and the belt was put on Kerry to take advantage of the moment. Had David not died, he would have just been another in a long line of unrecognized champs. Anyway, NWA was serious about who they gave the title to. Rhodes won it from Race. A week later Race wins it. Two months later Giant Baba wins it. A week later Race wins it back. Less than a year later Giant Baba wins it. A week after Race wins it back. Tommy Rich wins it next. A week later Race wins it back. A little over a month later Rhodes wins it. A few months later Flair wins it. Carlos Colon wins it a few years later and then Flair and Race exchange title wins over and over again for years. Von Erich wins it for just over two weeks. Then the hot potato goes to Dusty. Then Ron Garvin, snore, wins it from Flair only to lose it right back to him. That's pretty much the 1980s for you. 18 title changes in NWA compared to 3 in WWE. I know how big Flair, Race and Rhodes are and why they brought legitimacy to the NWA belt. The promotion was serious about keeping the strap on these three men although fto mix things up temporarily the belt would change hands for a few days and someone new would hold it for effect i.e. Kerry Von Erich. I believe if Von Erich had incredible drawing power the belt would have put on him for a little longer than 18 days. But since you're the authority on everything perhaps there's a behind the scenes reason the company didn't give a Von Erich that main event push. Was it because Flair was just too damn popular? Rhodes controlled booking? Harley Race threatened to quit?

Ok so McMahon absolutely wanted the Von Erichs but Fritz wouldn't send them because they were his big draws. I believe you. But my question is why when Vince got a hold of Kerry did he make him look like a chump? Was that Vince's way at getting back at Fritz since the Von Erichs had lost their appeal by the 90s? Did Vince set Kerry up to fail by giving him the IC title and then jobbing him out three months later to the rest of the roster? Wasn't all that bright a move for Fritz to disallow his sons a chance in WWF. Guess WWF wasn't all that big at the time and Fritz held on to them because territorial promotions were starting to lose a lot of their best performers to McMahon. His promotion would have crumbled without all his sons. Right? This is where I'm confused. Perhaps I've been drinking the WWE kool aid without even knowing it and for years the Von Erichs legacy has been diminished because Fritz wouldn't hand Vince over his overly popular sons.

Anyway, I'll catch up on the Von Erichs a bit and perhaps in half a decade I'll look back on this post and be disgusted with my opinion. I've changed my mind on a lot of things over the years so it's not out of the realm of possibility. I'll do what a lot of younger smarky brats don't do here and reserve any further judgment until I get a better handle on what I'm arguing. It'll be hard to change my mind at this point considering how I feel about the way the WWE Hall of Fame 'should be'. But perhaps I'll come to terms with the way 'it is' and realize the Von Erichs deserve a spot there. Here's hoping.

 

[dd23beatlesfan1]

Wrestling 101: You say 'anyone who doesn't think the Von Erichs deserve to be in the HOF should get their head checked'? Give me one good reason why 5 of the 7 Von Erichs who died before the age of 32 (and the one that's been on suicide watch for all these years) deserves to be in the HOF? What did any of them do that was so important for wrestling? Just because they were all involved in wrestling means nothing. If it did then you'd see all those jobber Villano brothers in there. Only one Von Erich ever even made it to the WWE and the Texas Tornado during his brief stint was really no bigger than Leaping Lanny in the territories or his Genius character in WWE. What I'm gonna say here is kinda awful but it's true.. besides Fritz, what did Larry, Curly, Moe or Kerry Von Erich do of any significance in life or in wrestling except overdose and blow their brains out? Killing yourself 20 years before you're even able to put together a Hall of Fame-worthy legacy is not grounds for Hall of Fame induction. But they're there and so is KoKo Beware and Pete Rose and Drew Carey and William Refrigerator Perry, Mike Tyson and Bob Ueker. So are career mid carders like Don Muraco, John Studd, JYD, Tito Santana, Sgt. Slaughter, Bob Orton, Paul Orndorff, Iron Sheik and Ron Simmons. If all these nobodies made it in then I don't see any problem with honouring Savage's wish to have his nobody father and brother inducted. The second rate HOF can't be any more disgraced than it already is. So Wrestling 101 you should get your own head checked before telling anyone else to be getting their head checked when it's pretty obvious you don't have very sound reasoning to back up your arguments.

So I'm guessing that by your logic, unless you're a 10X world champion then you don't deserve to be in?

How in the world can you call Don Muraco, Junkyard Dog, Tito Santana, Sgt. Slaughter, Paul Orndorff, the Iron Sheik, and Ron Simmons "nobodies."

Sure, none of those guys became iconic pop culture figures like Hulk Hogan and the Rock, but if you have to get to that level to be worthy, than you would have a Hall of Fame of about 5 guys which would be ridiculous.

All the above mentioned men either held championships or were big draws and popular wrestlers. Don Muraco and Tito Santana were 2X Intercontinental Champions. Sgt. Slaughter was one of the biggest stars of the 1980's, even going beyond wrestling and into pop culture with his GI Joe character. And he's a 1X WWE Champion. So is the Iron Sheik. Yes their runs with the title were short, but the Rock never had a title reign go past 5 months if I'm not mistaken. Paul Orndorff headlined the first Wrestlemania and drew huge houses against Hulk Hogan for over a year, including the biggest WWE crowd ever until Wrestlemania III. And yes, anyone feuding with Hogan drew, but Orndorff drew more than any of his opponents until Andre the Giant. The Junkyard Dog didn't hold any titles in WWE, granted, but he was still one of the biggest draws and for a period was the second most popular wrestler in the company, behind Hulk Hogan. And he was a megastar in the Mid-South territory in the early 1980's headlining shows at the Super Dome in New Orleans.

As I stated in a post awhile back about the Hall of Fame. Any hall of fame (whether it's sports, music, or any other medium) is supposed to tell the entire story of it's subject. And to tell the story and history of professional wrestling, you can't have only just the megastar icons/draws. Wrestling is about more than just the main event and world championship. You need the undercard and the mid-card to build towards the main event. Mid card guys typically are good workers that get wrestlers ready for the main event. So they are just as important to the overall spectrum of professional wrestling. For every Hulk Hogan and Randy Savage, you needed a Jake Roberts and Rick Rude.

So yes, Sgt. Slaughter, Big John Studd, Paul Orndorff, Don Muraco, Tito Santana, Junkyard Dog, Bob Orton, and Ron Simmons deserve to be in there just as much as Hulk Hogan, Steve Austin, Ric Flair, and Bret Hart.

 

[PDepew2181]

Loving the debate going on here right now. I tend to agree more with MrMojoRisin on his points. I think that ilapierre has a good point in that they could run out of guys to induct at the rate they're going, but I don't see that changing. The HOF is meant to draw money as much as anything, so they need to have 5-6 guys per year.

Maybe if it gets to a point where truly run short of guys to induct, they'll put it on hiatus, or maybe only do it once every couple of years. I don't think that's going to be the case for some time, however, as, in my opinion, there are plenty of names worthy of induction.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Mrmojoraisin: I appreciate a logical and informative argument man and you are one of the best around here. There's nothing underhanded about that although you and I will probably never see eye to eye on the Von Erichs even if I watch their documentaries. But you have opened my eyes to the fact that the Von Erichs had an intriguing feud once. I also realize now there's still a lot more of major significance for me to learn about wrestling outside of WWE. I'm not the authority on the Von Erichs and I know very little about territorial wrestling besides what I've read and watched on youtube. I'm not obsessed with wrestling to the point where I can tell you about everything that ever happened in a territory in the 1980s. I was a WWE mark, a WCW mark and that's where my focus has always been. You are a few years older than me, I figured, and you live in Canada. That kinda shocked me. You know so much about the Von Erichs I figured you'd had to have been an American. The Von Erichs were good looking guys so I don't doubt that they were well known by women who knew very little about wrestling. I myself know very little about TNA but I know that Lacey Von Erich works (or worked) there and she's pretty damn cute. Doesn't mean she's done anything Hall of Fame worthy in her wrestling career yet though. Even if she's out lived all but two of the 6 Von Erich boys.

Anyway, it's difficult for me to argue you if you are going to dismiss me as a troll for calling the Von Erichs nobodies and knowing very little about the territorial wrestling. You're right the Von Erichs aren't nobodies to anyone who followed the territories. My bad. But I still think the Von Erichs weren't influential enough to be inducted in as a family. David was on route to a Hall of Fame career, Fritz should be in there but then that's where it ends for me. Although you think my opinion is garbage, and perhaps it is, I know that I'm not the only wrestling fan out there who has a problem with the Von Erichs being in the Hall of Fame and guys like Bruno, Backlund and Savage not. I can't make a very strong argument because you've defined the Hall of Fame not for what it should be but for what it is: A place that honours almost any wrestler, WWE or not, who wrestled a great deal in the territories leading up to and during the pivotal WWE years right around Hulkamania and Wrestlemania. That is what the WWE Hall of Fame does though so you're right and I'm wrong. The way the HOF is set up there is a strong case for the Von Erichs being there. Maybe I'm just an ignorant ass for feeling this way but I believe the WWE HOF should be more exclusive. It should honour far fewer wrestlers for overall legitimacy and I feel the HOF should only honour the very best in WWE history and the only the very best who wrestled outside of WWE. I feel a wrestler should be honoured for years of contribution and families should only be inducted if all of its members played a long term part in the sport on a larger stage. But the reality is it doesn't matter what I feel. KoKo Beware and Ron Simmons are in there so the Von Erichs should definitely be in there and while they're at it it wouldn't hurt to induct Angelo and Lanny because the reality is the Hall is pretty much all-inclusive.

The WWE HOF should have HOF-like standards for entrance. But the reality is WWE honours second string wrestlers who were big on a smaller scale in territories. They honour A and B list celebrities. They honour families whose members were hot for a very short period of time in a very small area and are only remembered by extremely obsessed wrestling fanatics who can tell you the life story of Bruiser Brody or Gary Hart. I feel there's about 40 guys in the WWE HOF that shouldn't be there and I feel WWE should cut down on who they add because at the rate they're going everybody is going to be in there. I can list off at least 100 more deserving wrestlers who'll never be in the Hall of Fame with the Von Erichs. Do I have to be an authority on territories of the 80s to know just how big the Von Erichs were for a short period of time and how good looking women all over North American found them? No. We're talking about the WWE Hall of Fame and I know my WWE and WCW history well enough to know this family had very little impact on me and the average wrestling fan worldwide. A lot of people I know are wrestling fans and they know very little if anything at all about the Von Erichs. How does it make me ignorant that I'm not an authority on the Von Erichs if a larger percentage of fans past and present are in the same boat as me? I'm not the only one who lived in the mid 80s and knew nothing of the Von Erichs until after the fact. I'm the majority. They didn't penetrate mainstream consciousness. That's all the authority I need when determining whether a family of wrestlers were influential enough on wrestling fans worldwide to deserve Hall of Fame inclusion. Your argument is like when some pretentious music fanatic claims they know so much about the history of music because they're aware of some obscure band from the 80s that had a cult following in a particular scene but disappeared after a couple of years and never really made it into mainstream consciousness. Just because you know something someone else doesn't doesn't about some micro moment in the past doesn't make you an all-knowing authority of the macro.

You feel NWA was still bigger than WWF in the early to mid 1980s. You feel like you know this and I don't because you can rhyme off the whole NWA roster of 1982 and I can't. Whatever. I believe that's just a matter of opinion. For you it's a common knowledge fact that you're right because you think it and you pride yourself on being intellectually superior to any troll who doesn't agree with you. It's pathetic how you use the 'you're not an authority' card when you don't agree with someone. It's my opinion that the NWA belt didn't mean as much as the WWF belt in the early 1980s. You say the NWA was serious about who they put the belt on but the belt was on everybody in the early 80s. In WWF the title was put on Bob Backlund in 78 and he held it till 83. Hogan won it in 84 and didn't lose it till 88. That's 3 champions in 10 years. The NWA title was a hot potato whenever Ric Flair, Harley Race or Dusty Rhodes were involved. All three are legends so whatever. Flair won and lost the title all the time although most of these title changes aren't recognized today. One of those short title changes was after David died and the belt was put on Kerry to take advantage of the moment. Had David not died, he would have just been another in a long line of unrecognized champs. Anyway, NWA was serious about who they gave the title to. Rhodes won it from Race. A week later Race wins it. Two months later Giant Baba wins it. A week later Race wins it back. Less than a year later Giant Baba wins it. A week after Race wins it back. Tommy Rich wins it next. A week later Race wins it back. A little over a month later Rhodes wins it. A few months later Flair wins it. Carlos Colon wins it a few years later and then Flair and Race exchange title wins over and over again for years. Von Erich wins it for just over two weeks. Then the hot potato goes to Dusty. Then Ron Garvin, snore, wins it from Flair only to lose it right back to him. That's pretty much the 1980s for you. 18 title changes in NWA compared to 3 in WWE. I know how big Flair, Race and Rhodes are and why they brought legitimacy to the NWA belt. The promotion was serious about keeping the strap on these three men although fto mix things up temporarily the belt would change hands for a few days and someone new would hold it for effect i.e. Kerry Von Erich. I believe if Von Erich had incredible drawing power the belt would have put on him for a little longer than 18 days. But since you're the authority on everything perhaps there's a behind the scenes reason the company didn't give a Von Erich that main event push. Was it because Flair was just too damn popular? Rhodes controlled booking? Harley Race threatened to quit?

Ok so McMahon absolutely wanted the Von Erichs but Fritz wouldn't send them because they were his big draws. I believe you. But my question is why when Vince got a hold of Kerry did he make him look like a chump? Was that Vince's way at getting back at Fritz since the Von Erichs had lost their appeal by the 90s? Did Vince set Kerry up to fail by giving him the IC title and then jobbing him out three months later to the rest of the roster? Wasn't all that bright a move for Fritz to disallow his sons a chance in WWF. Guess WWF wasn't all that big at the time and Fritz held on to them because territorial promotions were starting to lose a lot of their best performers to McMahon. His promotion would have crumbled without all his sons. Right? This is where I'm confused. Perhaps I've been drinking the WWE kool aid without even knowing it and for years the Von Erichs legacy has been diminished because Fritz wouldn't hand Vince over his overly popular sons.

Anyway, I'll catch up on the Von Erichs a bit and perhaps in half a decade I'll look back on this post and be disgusted with my opinion. I've changed my mind on a lot of things over the years so it's not out of the realm of possibility. I'll do what a lot of younger smarky brats don't do here and reserve any further judgment until I get a better handle on what I'm arguing. It'll be hard to change my mind at this point considering how I feel about the way the WWE Hall of Fame 'should be'. But perhaps I'll come to terms with the way 'it is' and realize the Von Erichs deserve a spot there. Here's hoping.

Not going quote for quote this time... because you really get all over the place with your thoughts here, and it gets tiring.

First off, I say you're trolling because you freely admit that you know nothing about these guys, yet you still keep posting strong opinions on them and arguing those strong opinions as if they're fact. Who does that?

I don't get much of a chance to watch the current product lately. I have yet to see 3MB on TV. I know the wrestlers in the group, but I have literally no idea how they're coming across, if their gimmicks working, if it doesn't... basically anything about them. How would it feel if I then started posting about 3MB, giving strong opinions one way or another about them, and repeatedly arguing those opinions with anyone who disagreed with me... despite the fact that I don't know a thing about them?

The answer is, it would look like I'm trolling, and I would be.

Now to some of your specific points...

- Kerry's short reign as NWA champ was predetermined ahead of time. It was a business transaction (which is what the short reigns back in those days were all about). The board wouldn't get behind Kerry as a long term champ (which is what they were most serious about, the long term champs), because of his reliability and substance abuse issues.
- The NWA title was considered the most prestigious title INSIDE the business probably until after Wrestlemania 3. It's champ didn't hold the title as long as say the WWF or AWA champs traditionally did, because the NWA champ traveled a lot more than those other ones. WWF was a Northeastern territory until Vince Jr. expanded nationally. After a year or two of going to every territory in the NWA defending the belt, the champ was usually burnt out and wanted to drop the title. You can't compare NWA title reigns with other promotions, because they're completely different animals
- why wasn't Kerry booked better when he did go to the WWF? Simple. He wasn't the same guy that he used to be in the early 80's. You're talking about a guy that had his foot amputated by this time (and it's a tribute to how good he really was that few knew about this until years after the fact). He was heavy into drugs by this time and was simply unreliable. They gave him a shot based on who he was, but quickly found out that it wasn't the best business decision to get behind him anymore.
- finally talking about what the HOF SHOULD be, and what it really is, is two entirely different conversations. What you think it should be is all fine and good. At the end of the day, it's completely meaningless though, because nothing you say or think will affect how the HOF really is. So truthfully, it's just an exercise in futility to even argue it. By all means though, if that's what you want to argue, have at 'er. Just keep in mind, that when it comes to the HOF for the guys that get inducted, in many cases they could care less if they are or aren't in the WWE HOF. Many, when they accept, honestly do it for the free meal and a chance to shoot the shit with their old buddies as much as anything.

 

[ilapierre]

Beatlesfan: Good points. I've made it sound all along like the guys I mentioned aren't anywhere close to being Hall of Fame worthy. I understand JYD, Orndorff, Muraco, Slaughter and the Iron Sheik aren't nobodies. They were like Eric Lindros or John LeClair big. Larry Walkers or Dale Murphys. Guys you could make a case for for not being in their respective hall of fames. They were all great but just not great enough to be honoured as the elite. I don't understand the part of your argument where there would supposedly only be 5 people in the Hall of Fame if I had things my way. Hall of Fame's been around for 20 years. There'd be at least 40 wrestlers in there if 2 wrestlers were elected a year. Perhaps also one behind the scenes guy or manager a year added to that list as well. But of course there's 5 or 10 wrestlers who don't want to be inducted. So here's a list of the 50 most deserving (and eligible) wrestlers/tag teams/families (in no particular order).

Lou Thez, Ric Flair, Harley Race, Antonio Inoki, Bruno Sammartino, Buddy Rogers, Pedro Morales, Bob Backlund, Dusty Rhodes, Billy Graham, Hulk Hogan, Roddy Piper, Andre the Giant, Randy Savage, Mil Mascaras, Sting, Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Chief Jay, Gorilla Monsoon, Jerry Lawler, Antonio Rocca, Ernie Ladd, Fabulous Moolah, Jimmy Snuka, Fritz Von Erich (only), Killer Kowalski, Pat Patterson, Eddie Guerrero and family, Chris Benoit, Verne Gagne, The Blackjacks, Curt Henning, Mitsuharu Misawa, Nick Bockwinkel, The Sheik, Wild Samoans, Eddie Graham, The Briscos, Steve Austin, Ricky Steamboat, The Funks, Ted Dibiase, Gorgeous George, Mad Dog Vachon, Mick Foley, Abdullah the Butcher, Legion of Doom, Edge, Four Horsemen, Rick Rude, Jake Roberts, Lex Luger, British Bulldogs, Demolition, Giant Baba, Rikidozan, El Santo, Great Muta, Masa Chono, the HART Family, and, yes, the Ultimate Warrior. There are a lot of deserving guys that will be inducted in coming years. But to me, the Ultimate Warrior is about as low as they should go. The guys I mention above bring much more legitimacy to the Hall of Fame.

These guys all deserve a HOF spot before second stringers like Don Muraco, JYD, Iron Sheik, Sgt. Slaughter, Koko, John Studd, Nik Volkoff, Ron Simmons, Bob Orton, Tito Santana and Paul Orndorff. Hall of fames should be around to celebrate the Ozzie Smiths and George Bretts. The Joe Sakics and Steve Yzermans. The Kinks and The Whos. To be a credible hall of fame, only the best of the best..the most memorable and influential..should be inducted. Having George Steele and Yokozuna in there but not having Bruno or Backlund makes the whole thing feel second rate. That's my opinion. Although I'm not a self-proclaimed Mojorasin-like authority on everything.

And Beatlesfan, I don't really get why any hall of fame should include the non elite. I get that wrestling's fake and the lower/middle card guys are there to keep the fans going till the main event. But I just don't see how these lower card guys were any different than other lower card guys who aren't in there. This is why hall of fames should only include the most successful and best draws. I get your point about the non elite though. When it comes to music, I get that some non elite musical groups deserve inclusion for influencing rock and roll. But I don't get how guys like George Steele or Nik Volkoff influenced anything. They were just guys given a gimmick and told to suck. Even though he was a two time WWF champ, what's so special about including Yokozuna? Did he influence sumos everywhere to gain more weight to get signed by WWE? Did George Steele have a profound influence on The Miz's look? I'm just confused here. Why do guys like Paul Orndorff deserve inclusion for feuding with Hulk Hogan once and not really having anything else to show for? Junk Yard Dog was loved by fans in the South and was the second biggest guy after Hogan for a while. The Von Erichs were popular like JYD. Well we all know how loved the Backstreet Boys and N Sync were by a similar demographic for a couple of years too. If these 'bands' learned to play some instruments, shaped music and had outstanding 20 year careers then maybe they'd be inducted some day. But just because they were popular for a few years, how does that make them significant? How did Sergeant Slaughter shape wrestling by playing a GI Joe character? He had two memorable feuds and was relevant off and on for a couple of years. How does that make him any more worthy of inclusion than say Jushin Liger or even the Big Bossman?

 

[ilapierre]

Mojoraisin: I know how big the NWA title was. My belief has always been it was the big title until about the time Vince McMahon Jr. took over in the late 70s. I did not realize the NWA was all that strong once Hulk and Wrestlemania pretty much decimated the territories.

Yes I have a strong opinion on the Von Erichs because I DO know quite a bit about WWE and WCW history. I am not clueless when it comes to the NWA yet I probably, undeservedly, under value what happened in the territories back in the day. I have a strong opinion because the WWE Hall of Fame is the WWE's and not the territory hall of fame. It's not the NWA hall of fame. It's WWE. I have a strong opinion about the Von Erichs because nothing they've ever done has interested me or anyone I've ever known. I've had conversations with hardcore wrestling enthusiasts who know a thousand times more than myself and the Von Erichs are rarely ever brought up. I am not an authority on them, or Slaughter or Orndorff or even Randy Savage (although I can tell you almost everything about this guy's entire career because I've researched it my whole life). I'm just a fan who lived during this period and I have an opinion. I'm not some know it all who believes I have a smarky authority over anything that happened outside commercial wrestling. I just have an opinion. I've been alive for 31 years and the Von Erichs had less impact on my life than almost anybody in the Hall of Fame. If I followed Billy Kidman or DDP's pre-WCW career religiously and was a huge fan of either, would that give me the right in 10 years to come on here and label anyone with a negative 'opinion' on either a troll for not remembering or ever catching up on them on YouTube? Would anyone be a troll because I know more about them than they do? Both were pushed and had runs but in the grand scheme of things they didn't really shape anything and are both pretty inconsequential. In 10 years, younger fans might gang up on me and argue me to the moon and back that both Kidman and DDP did not have amazing careers. Does that make them trolls or does that me one of the rare fans who overvalues a few wrestlers who weren't all that memorable to the average mainstream wrestling fan???

 

[justtxyank]

Mojoraisin: I know how big the NWA title was. My belief has always been it was the big title until about the time Vince McMahon Jr. took over in the late 70s. I did not realize the NWA was all that strong once Hulk and Wrestlemania pretty much decimated the territories.

Your belief on the matter was wrong sadly. The WWF title was a regional world title that got threatened with being unrecognized as a world title during the late 70s, early 80s. The only reason it retained any credibility was because of the population center of the US being in the Northeast where the WWF was strong.

There's no doubt that the NWA title was the bigger title and that the NWA was the bigger "name" (it wasn't a promotion, it was an alliance of several promotions) prior to Hulk Hogan. You could make a case that the AWA was bigger than the WWF prior to Hulkamania.

 

[PDepew2181]

ilapierre: I'm afraid you're going to open a new can of worms by saying only Fritz Von Erich is deserving, while the entire Guerrero family is. I don't really have an opinion on that, but I don't think it's an open and shut case.

Also, you say the Hall of Fame is for the George Bretts and Ozzie Smiths, The Kinks and The Who, etc. While all of those people are deserving of being in their respective HOF, they're also not the upper echelon of their HOF, either. They're all a notch below it.

 

[ilapierre]

Oh ok thank you justtxyank for clearing up how the WWF title meant very little during this time period. I've been crazy all these years thinking WWE was pretty big prior to the Hogan era. Honestly, I'm shocked that I didn't see through this facade any earlier than now. Usually I'm the first to call others out on being brainwashed by WWE home video. WWE glorifies its own history as if to make its past look just as big or bigger than the NWA's and I bought it. My bad. I learn something new every day here talking to all you extremely intelligent smarks who know tons more than this troll about anything territory-related..

PDepew2181: You're absolutely right! I was thinking of including just Eddie and Gory but I figured why not include the rest of the family including Chavo Jr. Chavo had a much larger impact in the mainstream world of wrestling than Kerry Von Erich lol (Trolling again for having a dumb opinion, my bad). Ozzie Smith, George Brett, The Kinks and The Who are not a level below the upper echelon. That's just crazy talk. The Kinks are much more important in shaping music than Jake Roberts is to shaping wrestling (although I believe Jake deserves a spot in the HOF). Ozzie Smith is more deserving in the MLB HOF than Ricky Steamboat in the WWE HOF although Steamboat's a surefire hall of famer and one of the best wrestlers ever. The Who is one of the best bands of all time and, if not in the upper echelon, are just below the upper echelon bands like The Beatles, Stones, Zeppelin and Floyd. There's no disputing that The Who are one of the best. Not recognizing them as one of the best bands ever would be the same as claiming that Roddy Piper is not one of the best wrestling personalities ever because he wasn't one of the top 10. But being one of the top 20 best doesn't make you any less worthy of elite status even if you're not as high up. George Steele and Paul Orndorff were about 10 notches below Roddy Piper and were nowhere near the upper echelon. They were so far down they were 'second string'. That's much different than being outside the 'upper echelon'.

 

[PDepew2181]

ilapierre, just to clarify, I like the Kinks and the Who a lot. Especially the Who. But when it comes to the Rock N Roll HOF, they do fall just below the tip top, which to me would be The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, Elvis Presley, Bob Dylan, etc.

George Brett is probably the 2nd or 3rd best 3B of all time, but if you look at the entire baseball HOF, he's about 30th or so (which is about where ESPN ranked him on this inane Hall of 100 thing they're currently doing). I've always like Ozzie Smith as well, but he's probably no better than 4th amongst HOF shortstops, and that might be a little too high.

You do still bring up a good point about the Guerrero family. WWE could induct them one day (and even include Vickie!), but I don't anticipate that happening soon.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

On the main page, Mark Madden's latest column is up in which he, again, addresses the topic of inducting wrestling Legend Bruno Sammartino into the WWE Hall of Fame.

Madden has repeatedly talked about his personal dislike for the legend, though will be the first to say that Sammartino deservedly belongs in any wrestling hall of fame because of his accomplishments. As far as the WWE HOF goes, Sammartino has repeatedly turned down offers from WWE to be inducted over the years. According to reports, Triple H has allegedly been working hard to convince Bruno to accept going in for the class of 2013. Many of those same reports state that Vince doesn't really seem to care one way or the other anymore.

At any rate, Madden believes that WWE should just go ahead and induct Sammartino anyhow, same thing with Macho Man Randy Savage, even if without consent. Maybe I'm just something of a simple minded guy here but, to me, that completely reeks of true disrespect. The WWE gets enough criticism for one thing or another, especially among some "old school" wrestling stars, and inducting Sammartino or Savage without personal or familial consent would be just one more thing to gripe at WWE about.

I know what Sammartino was to wrestling but if he doesn't wanna go it, then fuck it. The WWE shouldn't bang its head against the proverbial brick wall year after year when the wall is as solid as ever in its decision. If what I've read about Sammartino over the years is true, the guy's a full blown hard ass who won't give an inch to save his life. But if he doesn't want to go in, then certainly don't stoop to putting him. Hell, what's it going to accomplish? Who will accept the honor and make the speech on his behalf? Same thing with Randy Savage. If his brother is going to raise a stink over things, which I'm certain he probably would, then I don't see a reason to sully something that's meant to be an honor by pulling something underhanded.

The same goes for all wrestlers who don't want to be put in. If they don't want to be honored by the largest and most successful wrestling company in the world for their contributions to the entire industry, then screw it. It's their call, so don't worry about it.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

I listened to a podcast with Bruno about... six months ago or so, whenever Mark Madden falsely claimed Ring of Honor was on the verge of shutting down, it got to me somehow but anyway I digress. During it Bruno said he doesn't want to accept the induction because he believes McMahon destroyed wrestling with his concept of sports entertainment and that when he dies he'll have it in his will that no family member accepts an invitation on his behalf to be inducted into the WWE Hall of Fame.

I understand Bruno's perspective of things but I do feel he should be respected enough to decided based off his own opinions. He was in the business and still is, longer than hundreds-upon-hundreds of performers. Inducting him without his consent and his consent alone would be a half-arsed attempt to exploit his name. If he himself can't be talked around into doing it, shouldn't be done. At least with Savage WWE know what they have to do, induct Lanny, Randy and their father.

 

[Coco]

I agree with Madden all the way. I'd even say that the same goes for Warrior if he doesn't want to accept an invitation. I'm not a big believer in respect or tradition in a business that essentially boils down to glorified carnies bilking marks for all that they're worth. But if you want to build a Hall of Fame that respects the past, you do just that. Even if respect for the past goes against the wishes of certain individual performers from days gone by.

I don't understand why anyone would let Lanny fucking Poffo strong-arm them. Respect the past. Fuck the performers.

 

[closet_fan]

I really don't understand why the WWE doesn't just go ahead and put guys who don't want to go in in. It's not like they can sue them. While it wouldn't be all that great if the guy wasn't there to accept, who cares? Show some video, give a speech, BOOM done. People are still going to watch and go whether these guys are there or not. If they ever decide to induct him after another "no way," then induct another big name who will be there and have him be the last one.

People will disagree, but Bruno is just a bitter old man who can't let go of the past.

 

[vampirek]

I really don't understand why the WWE doesn't just go ahead and put guys who don't want to go in in. It's not like they can sue them. While it wouldn't be all that great if the guy wasn't there to accept, who cares? Show some video, give a speech, BOOM done. People are still going to watch and go whether these guys are there or not. If they ever decide to induct him after another "no way," then induct another big name who will be there and have him be the last one.

People will disagree, but Bruno is just a bitter old man who can't let go of the past.

Actually they could sue them should they own the rights to the characters and the WWE promote the HOF that it will include them. Its perfectly possible Warrior, for example, will do this. Why is that important? WWE cares about its public image, last thing they need is Warrior going off on one in public about his forced induction in the Hall of Fame. Same then could be said about Sammartino and Owen Hart. The latter could be a public relations disaster.

They could instead go with a third list (So HOF, Legend, Alumni) and explain that legends are future Hall of Famers should they accept the invitation. In that way WWE acknowledges their presence without needing a ceremony. Pretty much have that system in place now, but by putting the idea that it is the individual to accept puts the onus on them... WWE has done their part.

 

[Daniel]

The idea that the WWE Hall Of Fame is legitimate is laughable. There's far too much mediocrity in there for any rational person to believe it is. Adding a couple of actual legends isn't going to change anything - so why disrespect the Poffo family or go against the wishes of Bruno Sammartino? If you really want the Hall Of Fame to respect the past and to truly be a celebration of greatness, you should be arguing for the removal of a ton of guys. The no-name celebrities and the ineffectual, mediocre performers (insert Koko B. Ware comment here). Like I said, Savage and Sammartino won't make it a celebration of greatness.

 

[CJH]

Actually they could sue them should they own the rights to the characters and the WWE promote the HOF that it will include them. Its perfectly possible Warrior, for example, will do this. Why is that important? WWE cares about its public image, last thing they need is Warrior going off on one in public about his forced induction in the Hall of Fame. Same then could be said about Sammartino and Owen Hart. The latter could be a public relations disaster.

"Owning the right to your character" just means you can use the name and gimmick wherever you go, and WWE can't give your name/gimmick to someone else, like they did with the fake Razor Ramon and fake Diesel in 1996.

Inducting someone into the Hall of Fame without his/her consent is perfectly fine as long as WWE makes it clear that he/she won't actually be at the ceremony.