**Merged** This is Indeed a Dark Hour (The Jeff Hardy Champion Thread)

[Harthan]

Wow, such a wonderful intro. You sure got me.

Well, honestly, it wasn't directed at you, who are making an intelligent argument, but more at the posts that are just blind Hardy hatred. I mean, at least you've got legit reasons.

Well lets begin with a thing called culture. In culture, it evolves. Somethings that are taboo now, weren't taboo. Hence steroids, cocaine and all of that. In the 80's when people say everyone was doing it, they meant everyone was doing it. In that culture, young boys were exposed to the world of GI Joe, He-Man, Arnold, and yes, Hulk Hogan. Does it make it right, in hindsight no, but it wasn't socially taboo at the time.

Since then, we've had Major League Baseball essentially be destroyed do to it's players and drugs, stringent, heavily enforced drug policies in almost every major sport, and business place. In the 25 years since Hulkamania was born, society as a whole has taken a stronger stance on drugs, whether it be private businesses drug screening, or professional sports dropping the hammer on athletes.

Hulk Hogan took a huge PR hit when he was on trial and admitted steroid use. So much so that in WCW, he had to re-invent himself. Hollywood Hulk Hogan was a by product of the legit heat that Hulk Hogan the man had. They took a bad thing, and turned it into a good thing, and Hogan has reinvented himself, and has at least admitted that he was on the juice.

While the negative attitude surrounding drugs has certainly increased, it clearly hasn't taken the dig on Hardy that it did on Hogan. I don't see a whole lot of negative media attention on Hardy as a result of the substance abuse, although, to be fair, this is probably because wrestling has fallen so far out of the public eye. However, while steroids are becoming more taboo, I think the general culture is taking a more relaxed stance towards marijuana. Had it been cocaine or some such, it would be different, but the attitude towards marijuana in the general populace has relaxed. Of course, it wasn't definitely marijuana, but given his physical condition I can't imagine it was something terribly hard.

Likewise with shawn Michaels. Now, if you want to bring HBK up, I simply ask you, why. You refer to smarks, and smarkiness, yet you don't realize that HBK is the king of the smarks. HBK is only a draw in his own mine, so to throw out HBK's name as something of significance, it's greatly flawed to do the overall smarkiness of it. Oh, and the difference between Jeff Hardy and HBK, HBK has at least admitted that he was a different person. Some see HBK's four year absence from the business as punishment enough, Karma kicking him in the ass. Jeff Hardy has never once admitted he has a problem, which is a problem.

I'm not saying that HBK was a huge draw, and I give you HBK is a smark king. But, what can be said is that not only did HBK return with the true main event of WrestleMania X, card position notwithstanding, he also went on to hold the Intercontinental championship soon after his return, and the title certainly meant a hell of a lot more than than it does now. So all I'm saying, is that someone can return from a drug related absence, win a big title, and go on to be something respectable.

Actually, I take Jeff Hardy to be a huge moron. So you reward people fors tupididy. Instead of dangling the golden carrot in front of them, you give them the carrot and hope they don't do something to embarass you in the process. Yup, that really worked with Rob Van Dam. Jeff Hardy was in the middle of big pushes every single time he was suspended.

There is an enormous difference between in the middle of a push and actually being WWE Champion. I refer to the above hat eating.

Whether it was in 2002 when he feuded with the freakign Undertaker and went toe to toe with him in a ladder match, or when tNA was pushing him to the moon and making him the number one guy in the company.

Once again, enormous difference between in a push and holding title.

Or giving him the number 2 title on a brand

You're really going to try to justify the current Intercontinental Championship as as big a deterrent as the WWE Championship?

, or giving him a shot at Money in the Bank, where every winner has gone on to win the title that won that match.

Given the entire Punk angle that unfolded, I can't honestly say that CM Punk wasn't the original man booked to win that match.

Jeff Hardy has a track record, and it's not in his favor, and if you don't see that, you're simply a jeff Hardy apologist.

I see Jeff's track record of screw ups clearly, and it's clear he's delayed his rise to the top significantly. But, actually being the WWE Champion is ten times the deterrant anything else was.

Drugs do matter, in ring ability does matter, and promo ability matters.

The drug abuse hasn't affected his entertainment value negatively, and he's got the biggest deterrent possible around his waste, his in ring ability entertains, and his promos tell the story well enough. Everything about Hardy just combines to make him the most over face on SmackDown.

He maybe over, but there have been plenty of people over in the history of this business, more over then Jeff Hardy ever was, yet Jeff Hardy gets the chance to hold onto the gold, while others haven't. How in the hell does that work? A guy like Jeff Hardy has shown absolutely zero respect for the business for at least the last six years. He's taken everythign that any company has ever given to him, and then ran away from it into the wonderful world of substance abuse.

Hey, he's screwed up a lot, I get that. And there's other guys that deserved the title also. There's a thread for that. But wrestling has always had one foot in the realm of politics, and for all the many men who deserved a WHC, politics could probably account for 3 out of 4 or better cases. Jeff is as deserving of the WWE Championship as anyone in the current field.

The guy is a disgrace to the WWE and it's championship. The guy gets over by simple circus trickery, that's about it.

And if the circus trickery appeals to the fans, does it matter? You talked about culture evolving. So has wrestling evolved into something drastically different from what it was. Clearly, Jeff is selling merchandise, getting over, and entertaining. What else really matters?

When Jeff Hardy is 35 and can't walk, will all his fans still care about him. When a guy like Triple H is able to wrestle and be over with a safe style well into his fourties, where will Jeff hardy be. He'll be at home, limping and bent over because the style he wrestles will only let his body last for oh so long.

Jeff is 31 and seems to be in fine shape. Four years aren't gonna take away his ability to walk. He's never suffered a major injury off of his style of wrestling, and 15 odd years of experience aren't going to make it more likely that he will. Will he be forced to slow down in about 5 years? Yeah. But hell, he's so over now it won't even matter. Look at the pops Ric Flair got in his final years, despite being weak in the ring.

Jeff Hardy should not be WWE champion, because the WWE is a kid friendly show now. A great example to set to children around the world, be disrespectful, and addict, and not care about the business you work for, and ultimately you can just paint your face up and get to the top of the company.

He got over a long time before he painted his face. He's improved with the gimmick, but he was already good before. Furthermore, Jeff's not an addict - falling off the wagon twice over a period of years does not an addict make.

 

[Frank the Frowner]

Just to draw back a little bit to the Money in the Bank example, you remember, from earlier this year when he was all booked to win and wound up losing his spot due to the fact that he's a junkie, it could be said that Vince really didn't care. It got the wellness policy over as something where nobody is immune to it, regardless of their standing in the company. If and when Jeff gets his third violation in the 2 years he's been employed by the WWE, it will at least show to the public that the WWE is serious about its Wellness Policy, especially if he's the champion at this point. That's about the only upside for Vince in this.

To bring up marijuana is ridiculous. There are rumors that Brian Kendrick has failed like 12 drug tests and considers the $1000 fine his fee to be able to smoke pot. There's no reason to bring that up when Jeff is/was obviously using harder drugs.

And stop saying that I haven't given him a chance yet and that he shouldn't be criticized. With the amount of sloppiness he has in his matches (which hasn't been apparent lately because of the fact that he has the benefit of post-production on his matches on Smackdown) and his horrible promo ability, and his general douchebagness, there's no reason to think that he's going to suddenly improve.

I enjoy HHH and Cena's ring work, and I'm sure a lot of you were bullshit when they were champions, which is understandable. But to say that the minority here needs to calm down about this horrible move... you can't have it both ways.

 

[psykohurricane]

Two things came to mind after Jeff won the title, first here's another member of the ''let's shut up the internet fans by giving him the title Club'' and secondly this won'T last long because they gave him the belt to quickly. LEt'S face it, Jeff Hardy got the belt not because he'S over, not because he deserve it, but because fans wouldn'T stop talking about how they wanted Jeff to win the belt. This will be the same exact typetitle reign as Eddie guerrero, RVD, Chris Benoit, REy Mysterio and CM Punk. Jeff HArdy will have a nice little run with the belt and then will lose the belt and will flowder in the upper mid-card region and will probably never be get another title reign.

This wasn'T the time for Jeff Hardy to win the title it should have started at Wrestlemania. Winning the belt at armageddon just makes him another world champion that probably will get forgotten in a couple of month instead of having him winning the belt at wrestlemania and cementing his legacy as one of the top performer in the wwe. So now instead of getting a great moment we are getting a interim champion that nobody will remember in a couple of month.

Way to go WWE, you just screw up again.

 

[goldstandard]

Well, I've read all these posts and I think there have actually been a lot of good points made by both sides. However, when I look at the big picture right now, I think that making Jeff Hardy the champion was a great move.

People can call Jeff Hardy a spot monkey all they want, but there's something to be said for a wrestler that gives up his body the way he does for the sport. He has been involved in some incredible matches in his career, including his series of ladder matches with his brother, Edge, Christian, and the Dudleys. The fact is, the guy actually generates excitement in his matches because he does different moves you don't see everyone else doing. I was at the Smackdown taping in Albany three weeks ago and he got the loudest cheers of anyone, Triple H included. He is a huge draw and the fans love him. The guy has been wrestling long enough that he deserves a shot in the spotlight. If anything, having him keep getting close and losing big matches was going to kill his draw.

WWE was running the risk of getting very stale and predictable. Lets face it, you can only see so many title reigns from Edge, Triple H, Cena, Undertaker and Batista before it becomes same ole same ole. Don't get me wrong, they are all wrestlers who have payed their dues and earned their title reigns. But, when you just keep circulating between the same small corps of guys it gets repetitive and boring. Hardy adds the first excitement to the title for quite a while as I don't think many expected him to win it. I sure didn't. I expected Edge to keep the title. I for one want to see where this goes.

I do agree that the drug issues are a concern. I hope he takes this seriously and doesn't ruin a good thing here. What I think gets forgotten though is that the average fan doesn't troll around message boards here like we do. Therefore, they may not even be aware of the drug issues or the fact the WWE even has a Wellness Policy. My son loves wrestling and like most kids his age he loves Cena, Hardy and Triple H. But he has no idea what any of these guys personal issues are. I would be willing to bet that the average fan is not even aware Hardy has two strikes.

 

[Castleraegh]

Yes, because guys like Ted Dibiase, Roddy Piper, Curt Hennig, Scott Hall, Rick Rude, Jake Roberts.... yadda yadda yadda, weren't only better, but a thousand times better and more over then Jeff Hardy ever could hope to be. What workrate does Jeff Hardy have, the ability to take a bump, that's it. He's botchtastic at best, spotty at worst. The whisper in the wind is one of the msot terrible moves in the history of the business, the running along the railings is oh so awesome, because you never know when he's going to botch that as well.

there is a list a mile long of wrestlers past and present that deserve the title more then a four time failiing drug addict that doesn't respect the business.

This proves you have not been paying attention to Jeff Hardy since his return. You're line of argument based on what exactly? The Jeff Hardy from 2002? He has improved almost miraculously since returning. I know, i once took your line of argument, but the difference here is that you are too stubborn to actually see that the guy has evolved since then.

Next off, what exactly is your definition of workrate? Workrate is the willingness to do what is asked for you, and deliver on it, which no one can say Jeff Hardy doesn't do. He goes out there, he entertains, he delivers, the roof blows off from the pops.

Next, what gives you the right to say Jeff Hardy doesn't respect the business? Do you have sort of insider knowledge you are not telling us about? Do you know Hardy personally?

Well he is a drug addict, and he failed the Wellness policy for substance related issues, not for poor attitude. You may not know what he failed, but he was suspended for substance abuse of some kind. The WWE differentiates between conduct violation and substance violation. So to say he wasn't on something is just being a Jeff Hardy apologist, plain and simple.

Alcohol is a substance, controlled medicine is a substance, vitamin tablets is a substance. Which is what i am trying to tell you. Substance Abuse can mean anything, and to be so ignorant to say "OMG! METH HEAD!" is downright bullshit. You want an example? William Regal was suspended because he had a cold and so took vitamin tablets, which meant he tested positive. Because WWE has a zero tolerance rule, he had to be suspended.

LAWLS, so that's the overwhelming compelling evidence as to why Jeff Hardy deserves the title, woo hoo. So now I should campaign for Jim Duggan to win. After all, he won the Royal Rumble and has been over with the fans for 20 plus years now, the guy obviously deserves the world title.

What other reason is there, exactly? He has a good workrate, the fans love him, he sells merchandise, he sells seats, he delivers each and every time he has been put into a big match so far, is the something i am missing? Though i'd love to see how you would book something, it'd be comical you putting the popular characters at the bottom of the card and putting complete bores that no one cares about around the title.

The Jim Duggen thing just proves how idiotic your line of argument is. Did you sit down, jump on Wikipedia, and find a Rumble winner you could use? Obviously forgetting that he won it 20 years ago when he actually was popular? You have nothing to say other than "EH JEFF HARDY IS A SPOT MONKEY AND HE DOES DRUGS!!!!"

The reason the WWE didn't waste a WWE Wrestlemania moment, because they don't want another one of these to happen.

You mean those beautiful moments in wrestling history that you for some reason are associating to both of the men above being dead due to previous steroid abuse which of course has no connection with the actual 'Mania Moment at all?

or

You'd have a point if Jeff Hardy was found driving a car while smoking weed.

It wouldn't look to good to have your company champion fail out and publically embarass your company. When Jeff Hardy strikes out, and the company gets yet another black eye, I'll be the one there to say I told you so. If you come on these forums and defend Jeff Hardy and the WWE and are pissed with the media attackign the company, it's on you Hardy fan.

Once again, you cannot at all defend your own opinions so you have sunk to generalisation. First you suggest i am pissed at the media, they you suggest i am a Hardy fan. If you want to attack Jeff Hardy, back up your points, don't just jump on the bandwagon and spin the broken record.

Oh and yes, Jeff Hardy beating Triple H needed to happen, considering Triple H has never taken the Swanton for a pinfall victory during this year long feud. Jeff Hardys feud has been with Triple H, and beating Triple H for the title is what needed to happen. It now simply looks like Edge was brought back to be the guy to lay down for Jeff because Triple H was too good to pass the title to him.

Did it not cross your mind that WWE are building towards Hardy/HHH at Rumble? To steal a line from you, when it happens i'll be here to say i told you so.

 

[Slyfox696]

I understand, first off, why some are unsatisfied with the decision. Hardy has had drug problems. I'm gonna give you another wrestler who took drugs. You ready? No, really, are you? Because this is a big one. Hulk Hogan. Look, it's okay, you'll get past this. Hogan did steroids. Look at Hogan in his prime. Look at him. That's a body built by steroids.

Steroids weren't illegal then, nor were they against company policy. What's your point?

You can't honestly be trying to use Hulk Hogan to serve your purpose of advocating it's ok for a 2 strike drug and alcohol addict to be given a World Championship, can you? Seriously, giving Hardy the title is ridiculous.

And what's worse is I'm seeing people say "Hardy should have won it at Wrestlemania! Fuck the WWE!". Tell me, Hardy marks, shouldn't Hardy have won the title at LAST YEAR'S Wrestlemania? That's how I would have booked it.

Oh wait, I forgot. Jeff Hardy was unable to attend Wrestlemania 24. Why was that again?

 

[Shocky]

This proves you have not been paying attention to Jeff Hardy since his return. You're line of argument based on what exactly? The Jeff Hardy from 2002? He has improved almost miraculously since returning. I know, i once took your line of argument, but the difference here is that you are too stubborn to actually see that the guy has evolved since then..

If you shine a turd long enough, guess what it is in the end still, a shiny turd. What can you do with a shiny turd. Well, you might find some people gullable enough to say "Hey, that's just not any plain old turd, it's shiny, I want it". But when you take it home, open it up, and look at it, in the end its a turd and it still stinks like shit, that's Jeff Hardy. Jeff Hardy has improved, how so? Instead of being stuck in lower to mid card level feuds, the WWE and it's marketing machine has done everythign in its power to shove Jeff Hardy down our throats since his return. In this process, he's been in the ring with guys like Randy Orton, Shawn Michaels, and Triple H. These guys can have a good match with anybody. For every "good" Jeff Hardy match, there are two to three terrible Jeff Hardy matches. The improvment of Jeff Hardy is merely an optical illusion brought on by the real m ain event calibre opponents he faces. The world will get to see how "great" Jeff Hardy in when as champion he has to carry someone to a good match, that's assuming that they keep the title on him long enough, and assuming that they trust him in a match that doesn't include the likes of Shawn Michaels, Triple H, the Undertaker, Edge, Randy Orton, Chris jericho, or a list of any other people that are better and good enough to cover up the crap that is Jeff Hardy.

Next off, what exactly is your definition of workrate? Workrate is the willingness to do what is asked for you, and deliver on it, which no one can say Jeff Hardy doesn't do. He goes out there, he entertains, he delivers, the roof blows off from the pops.

Next, what gives you the right to say Jeff Hardy doesn't respect the business? Do you have sort of insider knowledge you are not telling us about? Do you know Hardy personally? .

As I said earlier, when has Jeff Hardy actually carried anyone to a good match. The "good" matches Jeff Hardy has that people associate with Jeff Hardy often include him jumping off of something high, or going through a table. Yippie fucking do. That's not a great worker, that's a glorified stuntman, nothing more, nothing less. Unlike Mick Foley who will take a bump and make both guys look good, Jeff Hardy can only do big bumps,b ecause it's the only reason why anyone gives a damn about the guy.

And yes, I can damn well say in a 100% completely unbiased opinion that Jeff Hardy has no respect for the wrestling business and only sees it as somethign that gives him a paycheck. You don't respect the business when you walk out of two different companies, and piss away multiple opportunities so you can get your fix on, and still not admit that you have a problem. Men work their entire lives that love and respect that title, and don't sniff it. Jeff Hardy thought it was too ahrd, so he picked his ball up, and left two companies when it got too tough.

Alcohol is a substance, controlled medicine is a substance, vitamin tablets is a substance. Which is what i am trying to tell you. Substance Abuse can mean anything, and to be so ignorant to say "OMG! METH HEAD!" is downright bullshit. You want an example? William Regal was suspended because he had a cold and so took vitamin tablets, which meant he tested positive. Because WWE has a zero tolerance rule, he had to be suspended..

No, the long gloves hiding the track marks on his arm give me the indication of what Jeff Hardy is on, damn those WWE HD cameras for picking up little subtle things like that. And when did I say Meth head in this thread, checking once, checking twice, nope. I say he had a substance abuse problem, and regardless of what you want to think or not, things are illegal for a reason. He failed twice, whether it's something minor (unlikely) or major (given his track record and his unrepentant history of not admitting his problem, I'll take this one). With any place in life, if you can prove what you have is prescribed by a physician, you fail. It's simple. Stay off shit, no matter what it is, that will get yous uspended. Seems pretty simple.

What other reason is there, exactly? He has a good workrate, the fans love him, he sells merchandise, he sells seats, he delivers each and every time he has been put into a big match so far, is the something i am missing? Though i'd love to see how you would book something, it'd be comical you putting the popular characters at the bottom of the card and putting complete bores that no one cares about around the title.

The Jim Duggen thing just proves how idiotic your line of argument is. Did you sit down, jump on Wikipedia, and find a Rumble winner you could use? Obviously forgetting that he won it 20 years ago when he actually was popular? You have nothing to say other than "EH JEFF HARDY IS A SPOT MONKEY AND HE DOES DRUGS!!!!" .

I've actually said plenty on why Jeff Hardy is terrible. Son I've forgotten more about wrestling then you will ever know, is that something to be proud of, maybe not. You want to bust out the wikipedia thing, typical crap argument last defense move on your part. I've watched wrestling since 1985, I've seen good people come, I've seen bad people rise to the top. I've watched every Royal Rumble since it's inception. You simply go to the Jim Duggan and his only major accomplishment, so I obviosuly don't know what I'm talking about. I happen to remember Jim Duggan being one of the most over faces in the company for many years. Remember the pops he got as far back as Wrestlemania 3, nope probably not. Jim Duggan has been as over with the fans as Jeff Hardy could ever have hoped to be, yet you assume that I'm only throwing him out there to slander Jeff Hardy. No, Jim Duggan was more over for a longer period of time, when the business was actually popular. Yet, the, well he's popular argument never flies with Jim Duggan? Why not, it's essentially the only argument Jeff Hardy fans have. He's popular, you knwo what, alot of people are popular, you don't see them carrying gold belts around their waste.

You mean those beautiful moments in wrestling history that you for some reason are associating to both of the men above being dead due to previous steroid abuse which of course has no connection with the actual 'Mania Moment at all? .

No. It's because the WWE invest money into guys taht are no longer here. Here they have a situation where they know what they have, and yet still put their belt on the guy with two strikes. By giving the belt to Jeff Hardy with him being as unrepented as he has been, essentially enables the guy to do whatever he wants without any fear of consequence. What reason would Jeff Hardy have not to screw up again when the WWE is going to do nothing to him?

You'd have a point if Jeff Hardy was found driving a car while smoking weed. .

I'll ask Money Mayweather.

Once again, you cannot at all defend your own opinions so you have sunk to generalisation. First you suggest i am pissed at the media, they you suggest i am a Hardy fan. If you want to attack Jeff Hardy, back up your points, don't just jump on the bandwagon and spin the broken record..

Actually I just did, again and again. You offer nothing but the same old sorry well the guys over argument which has about much weight to it as a paper clip. The guy is below average in the ring, has Warrioresque ability on the microphone. The only reason the guy is over is because he's colorful and does stuff thats going to leave him with a permanent bend in his back by the time he is 35.

Did it not cross your mind that WWE are building towards Hardy/HHH at Rumble? To steal a line from you, when it happens i'll be here to say i told you so.

And why in the world would anyone want to pay to watch Triple H vs. Jeff Hardy yet again on pay per view? You can only have this match so many time before people have had enough. What incentive would anyone have to buy this besides the fact that it is the Royal Rumble?

 

[GaaraOfTheDesert90]

well now a few Jeff Hardy haters here, i can see. What you dont seem to understand is that WWE is not a sporting event, its a business! As many have pointed out hardy is selling seats and merchandise, look at john cena
hes not a technical masterpiece in the ring but hes a huge draw because of the fans, the fans decide who the champs are whether they realize it or not.

A s far as his drug problems go wow, i didnt know you had to be perfect to be a world champion, grant it hes made mistakes but it looks like hes learned from them, if everyones career is decided on past drug issues there would be a lot of jobless people out there

besides all that complaining on a wrestling forum isnt gonna change the fact hes champ, look at all the people who complained about triple h during the evolution days, did it change anything?

Jeff Hardy is the champ get OVER IT!

 

[Frank the Frowner]

well now a few Jeff Hardy haters here, i can see. What you dont seem to understand is that WWE is not a sporting event, its a business! As many have pointed out hardy is selling seats and merchandise,

Well to be fair, it's both. And as it's been stated many times throughout this thread... Jeff isn't a safe investment for the WWE title, due to his track record.

look at john cena
hes not a technical masterpiece in the ring but hes a huge draw because of the fans, the fans decide who the champs are whether they realize it or not.

Cena's not Chris Benoit in terms of wrestling ability, but Cena has a presence that makes you believe he should be where he is in the grand scheme of things. He's got the look and the crossover appeal. A lot of people in this thread have said that Jeff has given so much to the WWE, in layman's terms. Compare what Cena has done for the company to what Jeff has done (being a headache). And as far as the fans deciding who the champs are... I'm pretty sure that:

A.) Fans don't sit in on the writers meetings.
B.) There wasn't a major voice for The Great Khali to be champion.

A s far as his drug problems go wow, i didnt know you had to be perfect to be a world champion, grant it hes made mistakes but it looks like hes learned from them, if everyones career is decided on past drug issues there would be a lot of jobless people out there

Um, as the face of the company, you should be a safe investment, and that is a squeaky clean image, and being someone who the company can count on. As it's been stated countless times in this thread, it's nobody else's fault but Jeff's that he wasn't at Wrestlemania winning the Money in the Bank ladder match. I'm not even going to address what you said on "everyone not having a job based on past drug issues"... That's just a ******ed argument, especially in regards to this debate.

besides all that complaining on a wrestling forum isnt gonna change the fact hes champ, look at all the people who complained about triple h during the evolution days, did it change anything?

No, but again, as it's been stated, it opens up debate which is exactly what this forum is made for.

Jeff Hardy is the champ get OVER IT!

This is going to be as big a failure as the Rey Mysterio title run, don't worry.

 

[BaconBits]

A lot of you Jeff Hardy hating clowns don't fucking get it.

You're too self important to see anything but blind rage for a supposed spot monkey. The drug thing is a convenient cop out.

Vince could give a flying fuck what issues the guy has, as could most fans. Jeff pulls in twice as many fans as most of the fine upstanding douchebags that you people would rather have as champion. Vince knows that and put the strap on him.

More than anyhing, it pisses you haters off because you were proven wrong in your prognostications that he would never get the belt.

 

[agentm005]

Wow, such a wonderful intro. You sure got me. Well lets begin with a thing called culture. In culture, it evolves. Somethings that are taboo now, weren't taboo. Hence steroids, cocaine and all of that. In the 80's when people say everyone was doing it, they meant everyone was doing it. In that culture, young boys were exposed to the world of GI Joe, He-Man, Arnold, and yes, Hulk Hogan. Does it make it right, in hindsight no, but it wasn't socially taboo at the time.

Since then, we've had Major League Baseball essentially be destroyed do to it's players and drugs, stringent, heavily enforced drug policies in almost every major sport, and business place. In the 25 years since Hulkamania was born, society as a whole has taken a stronger stance on drugs, whether it be private businesses drug screening, or professional sports dropping the hammer on athletes.

Hulk Hogan took a huge PR hit when he was on trial and admitted steroid use. So much so that in WCW, he had to re-invent himself. Hollywood Hulk Hogan was a by product of the legit heat that Hulk Hogan the man had. They took a bad thing, and turned it into a good thing, and Hogan has reinvented himself, and has at least admitted that he was on the juice.

Likewise with shawn Michaels. Now, if you want to bring HBK up, I simply ask you, why. You refer to smarks, and smarkiness, yet you don't realize that HBK is the king of the smarks. HBK is only a draw in his own mine, so to throw out HBK's name as something of significance, it's greatly flawed to do the overall smarkiness of it. Oh, and the difference between Jeff Hardy and HBK, HBK has at least admitted that he was a different person. Some see HBK's four year absence from the business as punishment enough, Karma kicking him in the ass. Jeff Hardy has never once admitted he has a problem, which is a problem.



Actually, I take Jeff Hardy to be a huge moron. So you reward people fors tupididy. Instead of dangling the golden carrot in front of them, you give them the carrot and hope they don't do something to embarass you in the process. Yup, that really worked with Rob Van Dam. Jeff Hardy was in the middle of big pushes every single time he was suspended. Whether it was in 2002 when he feuded with the freakign Undertaker and went toe to toe with him in a ladder match, or when tNA was pushing him to the moon and making him the number one guy in the company. Or giving him the number 2 title on a brand, or giving him a shot at Money in the Bank, where every winner has gone on to win the title that won that match. Jeff Hardy has a track record, and it's not in his favor, and if you don't see that, you're simply a jeff Hardy apologist.




Drugs do matter, in ring ability does matter, and promo ability matters. He maybe over, but there have been plenty of people over in the history of this business, more over then Jeff Hardy ever was, yet Jeff Hardy gets the chance to hold onto the gold, while others haven't. How in the hell does that work? A guy like Jeff Hardy has shown absolutely zero respect for the business for at least the last six years. He's taken everythign that any company has ever given to him, and then ran away from it into the wonderful world of substance abuse. The guy is a disgrace to the WWE and it's championship. The guy gets over by simple circus trickery, that's about it. When Jeff Hardy is 35 and can't walk, will all his fans still care about him. When a guy like Triple H is able to wrestle and be over with a safe style well into his fourties, where will Jeff hardy be. He'll be at home, limping and bent over because the style he wrestles will only let his body last for oh so long. Jeff Hardy should not be WWE champion, because the WWE is a kid friendly show now. A great example to set to children around the world, be disrespectful, and addict, and not care about the business you work for, and ultimately you can just paint your face up and get to the top of the company.

Dude, we get it, you don't like Hardy. Truth is, he is champion, so deal.

First of all, addressing the drug issue, we don't even know what type of drugs Hardy got caught doing. Not saying taking any drug is ok, but if he was smoking weed, whatever. He was dumb for doing it, but he was also punished, and weed is a relatively juvenile drug. I highly doubt he was on steroids like the majority of other wrestlers who have been suspended in the past. My bet is the fact that he was taking some kind of pain medicine, and although not to be condoned, can you blame him? The guy puts his body on the line all the time, works house shows and tapings, all year long. I believe in an interview right before the second suspension Hardy said something about his body really taking a toll.

Now for the "what example is he setting" argument: How many 7-12 year old kids are even aware of some of Hardy's past issues? I highly doubt the majority of them are on Wrestlezone getting an insiders look into all this shit. Instead, they are seeing someone the can look up to, someone at the bottom who worked his way to the very top. And although the truth may not be that black and white, it is what the majority of those young kids are aware of.

Just face it, dude. Hardy is champion. The majority of the wrestling community is ecstatic over this happening, even if they aren't represented on this site. The WWE isn't going to die because they put the belt on Hardy. Hardy is obviously in a much better place and much more mature and everything he has lost in the past few months has obviously made him see the reality of things.

This whole argument is pointless...Hardy lovers will say he is incredibly over, has a great workrate, and has improved over the years. All the haters are going to call out his past demons and say he sucks...It's a circular argument that is never going to get anywhere. Face it, the man is champion, and he, like everyone else, worked for it, no matter if you think he deserves it or not.

And plus, wrestling is fake! Shouldn't we be happy that someone with issues in the past is on route to living a healthier lifestyle!? Not hating on him because we take all of this entertainment way to seriously?

 

[Monkey_Mania]

Jesus Christ. I'm almost ashamed to be a Jeff Hardy fan. Some of them in here are ridiculous. Jeff is NOT the safest of options. But the WWE gave him the ball and its time for him to run with it. Whether or not he does is up to him. He doesnt have the safest track record by any stretch of the word. But he does appeal to a large number of fans. I hope Jeff Hardy can prove the naysayers wrong. Do I think he will. Time will tell. But at least I am being realistic here.

Realistic Jeff Hardy fan...OUT.

 

[Slyfox696]

Dude, we get it, you don't like Hardy. Truth is, he is champion, so deal.

So was CM Punk. Just because he's champion, doesn't mean he deserves to be.

First of all, addressing the drug issue, we don't even know what type of drugs Hardy got caught doing. Not saying taking any drug is ok, but if he was smoking weed, whatever. He was dumb for doing it, but he was also punished, and weed is a relatively juvenile drug. I highly doubt he was on steroids like the majority of other wrestlers who have been suspended in the past. My bet is the fact that he was taking some kind of pain medicine, and although not to be condoned, can you blame him? The guy puts his body on the line all the time, works house shows and tapings, all year long. I believe in an interview right before the second suspension Hardy said something about his body really taking a toll.

I do know this.

Hardy took a drug that was a) illegal, and b) against company policy. After that, does anything else matter?

Now for the "what example is he setting" argument: How many 7-12 year old kids are even aware of some of Hardy's past issues?

Who cares?

But, since we've gone that route, what about the recent angle about his supposed OD on Smackdown?

Hardy is obviously in a much better place and much more mature and everything he has lost in the past few months has obviously made him see the reality of things.

And you know this, simply because he hasn't been suspended within the last 6 months? Do you realize how silly you sound?

This whole argument is pointless...Hardy lovers will say he is incredibly over, has a great workrate, and has improved over the years. All the haters are going to call out his past demons and say he sucks...It's a circular argument that is never going to get anywhere. Face it, the man is champion, and he, like everyone else, worked for it, no matter if you think he deserves it or not.

First of all, Hardy's workrate isn't that good. Second of all, it's not a circular argument. Finally, I don't want him as champion because how can you trust a guy who has no showed numerous events, been fired once for drugs, and suspended two more times for violating the Wellness Policy?

And plus, wrestling is fake! Shouldn't we be happy that someone with issues in the past is on route to living a healthier lifestyle!? Not hating on him because we take all of this entertainment way to seriously?

Wrestling may be fake, but reliability is very real. How can you rely on Jeff Hardy?

 

[agentm005]

So was CM Punk. Just because he's champion, doesn't mean he deserves to be.

I do know this.

Hardy took a drug that was a) illegal, and b) against company policy. After that, does anything else matter?

Who cares?

But, since we've gone that route, what about the recent angle about his supposed OD on Smackdown?



And you know this, simply because he hasn't been suspended within the last 6 months? Do you realize how silly you sound?

First of all, Hardy's workrate isn't that good. Second of all, it's not a circular argument. Finally, I don't want him as champion because how can you trust a guy who has no showed numerous events, been fired once for drugs, and suspended two more times for violating the Wellness Policy?

Wrestling may be fake, but reliability is very real. How can you rely on Jeff Hardy?

First of all, CM Punk hasn't been involved with the WWE since he was 16 years old.

Secondly, the Hardy angle really looks like it was supposed to incline that he overdosed. I mean, he was found unconscious, Edge returned the same night in the match Hardy was supposed to be in...Yeah, really makes me think that Edge had nothing to do with it and that Hardy must have overdosed, even if WWE pretty much dropped the angle. How crazy of me.

Finally, guess we will just have to wait and see. Given most of the hater's feelings towards Hardy, even if he has a short, mediocre reign, it will be ripped to shreds. Even if Hardy has a good reign, it will be ripped to shreds. Don't act like it won't be. If Hardy messes up again, then its a real shame and a huge letdown. But that will be something Jeff and the WWE need to deal with.

 

[Slyfox696]

A lot of you Jeff Hardy hating clowns don't fucking get it.

No, we do. Which is why we're trying to explain it to you, because you seem quite off.

You're too self important to see anything but blind rage for a supposed spot monkey. The drug thing is a convenient cop out.

Self important? No, just logical.

Vince could give a flying fuck what issues the guy has, as could most fans.

Which is why they suspended him twice, correct?

Jeff pulls in twice as many fans as most of the fine upstanding douchebags that you people would rather have as champion. Vince knows that and put the strap on him.

I would prefer John Cena as undisputed champion.

So, my fine upstanding "douchebag" trumps yours.

More than anyhing, it pisses you haters off because you were proven wrong in your prognostications that he would never get the belt.

I never said he wouldn't. Merely that he shouldn't.

First of all, CM Punk hasn't been involved with the WWE since he was 16 years old.

Who cares? Punk was still given a title that he didn't deserve...like Hardy.

Secondly, the Hardy angle really looks like it was supposed to incline that he overdosed. I mean, he was found unconscious, Edge returned the same night in the match Hardy was supposed to be in...Yeah, really makes me think that Edge had nothing to do with it and that Hardy must have overdosed, even if WWE pretty much dropped the angle. How crazy of me.

Sarcasm noted.

With that being said, has anything ever been made of it yet? Or, did Hardy just OD, and come back with a weird look?

Finally, guess we will just have to wait and see. Given most of the hater's feelings towards Hardy, even if he has a short, mediocre reign, it will be ripped to shreds. Even if Hardy has a good reign, it will be ripped to shreds. Don't act like it won't be. If Hardy messes up again, then its a real shame and a huge letdown. But that will be something Jeff and the WWE need to deal with.

Why take a chance, when business seems to finally be improving?

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

If you shine a turd long enough, guess what it is in the end still, a shiny turd. What can you do with a shiny turd. Well, you might find some people gullable enough to say "Hey, that's just not any plain old turd, it's shiny, I want it". But when you take it home, open it up, and look at it, in the end its a turd and it still stinks like shit, that's Jeff Hardy. Jeff Hardy has improved, how so? Instead of being stuck in lower to mid card level feuds, the WWE and it's marketing machine has done everythign in its power to shove Jeff Hardy down our throats since his return. In this process, he's been in the ring with guys like Randy Orton, Shawn Michaels, and Triple H. These guys can have a good match with anybody. For every "good" Jeff Hardy match, there are two to three terrible Jeff Hardy matches. The improvment of Jeff Hardy is merely an optical illusion brought on by the real m ain event calibre opponents he faces. The world will get to see how "great" Jeff Hardy in when as champion he has to carry someone to a good match, that's assuming that they keep the title on him long enough, and assuming that they trust him in a match that doesn't include the likes of Shawn Michaels, Triple H, the Undertaker, Edge, Randy Orton, Chris jericho, or a list of any other people that are better and good enough to cover up the crap that is Jeff Hardy.

Jeff Hardy not being a miracle worker (like 3, arguably 4, of the six wrestlers you mention are) is a point that anyone would easily concede. However, I would hardly say that this means that he can't have good matches without the likes of the wrestlers you mentioned (and without resorting to what you would refer to as "spot monkey" tactics). In TNA, he had great matches with A.J. Styles, Raven, and Jeff Jarrett. Moreover, besides the wrestlers that you have already mentioned, he has shown that he can have great matches with wrestlers with similar styles and builds (e.g., John Morrison and The Brian Kendrick). So, yes, Jeff Hardy can have bad matches with wrestlers that are big and/or bring no talent whatsoever to the ring, but it is my opinion that wrestlers similar to Hardy with even a modicum of talent can have a good match with him. And, I would argue that, in matches with the type of wrestler I have just mentioned, Hardy brings just as much to the ring as his opponent.

As I said earlier, when has Jeff Hardy actually carried anyone to a good match. The "good" matches Jeff Hardy has that people associate with Jeff Hardy often include him jumping off of something high, or going through a table. Yippie fucking do. That's not a great worker, that's a glorified stuntman, nothing more, nothing less. Unlike Mick Foley who will take a bump and make both guys look good, Jeff Hardy can only do big bumps,b ecause it's the only reason why anyone gives a damn about the guy.

As I stated above, Jeff Hardy has had plenty of good matches with wrestlers exclusive of the ones you listed. Admittedly, sometimes he does resort to big spots in certain types of matches, such as when he is facing a monster heel like Umaga and when he is trying to heighten the tension in a feud (such as the one he had with Randy Orton at the beginning of this year). But, it is clear that he, in his current WWE run, has not resorted to spots so frequently as he did in his early career.

And yes, I can damn well say in a 100% completely unbiased opinion that Jeff Hardy has no respect for the wrestling business and only sees it as somethign that gives him a paycheck. You don't respect the business when you walk out of two different companies, and piss away multiple opportunities so you can get your fix on, and still not admit that you have a problem. Men work their entire lives that love and respect that title, and don't sniff it. Jeff Hardy thought it was too ahrd, so he picked his ball up, and left two companies when it got too tough.

"Respect for the business" is an extremely vague term, my friend. I cannot deny that Hardy has had motivational issues over the years, but he has been nothing but gracious to his fans and, as far as I know, has never been careless to the point of being hazardous to someone else in the ring. In my opinion, "respect for the business" is a term used by jealous veterans to belittle wrestlers who are looking to get out of the business so that they still have enough time to pursue other life goals. Is Hardy in it for the paycheck? More than likely, yes. Do I see him in the business eight to ten years from now? No. But, I don't think that should have any bearing on his respect for the business. Respect for the business means, to me, going out there and giving it your all (which Hardy has been doing for almost two years), being conscientious of the safety of your co-workers, and being kind and courteous to fans that shell out their hard-earned money to come and see you wrestle or who come to see you at a meet-and-greet.

No, the long gloves hiding the track marks on his arm give me the indication of what Jeff Hardy is on, damn those WWE HD cameras for picking up little subtle things like that. And when did I say Meth head in this thread, checking once, checking twice, nope. I say he had a substance abuse problem, and regardless of what you want to think or not, things are illegal for a reason. He failed twice, whether it's something minor (unlikely) or major (given his track record and his unrepentant history of not admitting his problem, I'll take this one). With any place in life, if you can prove what you have is prescribed by a physician, you fail. It's simple. Stay off shit, no matter what it is, that will get yous uspended. Seems pretty simple.

I have personally never heard of Hardy using his armbands to hide track-marks. I can respect the fact that you do not think highly of Hardy because of his experimentation with drugs in the past, but I would not accuse him of heavy intravenous opiate usage unless I could back it up with substantial proof.

I've actually said plenty on why Jeff Hardy is terrible. Son I've forgotten more about wrestling then you will ever know, is that something to be proud of, maybe not. You want to bust out the wikipedia thing, typical crap argument last defense move on your part. I've watched wrestling since 1985, I've seen good people come, I've seen bad people rise to the top. I've watched every Royal Rumble since it's inception. You simply go to the Jim Duggan and his only major accomplishment, so I obviosuly don't know what I'm talking about. I happen to remember Jim Duggan being one of the most over faces in the company for many years. Remember the pops he got as far back as Wrestlemania 3, nope probably not. Jim Duggan has been as over with the fans as Jeff Hardy could ever have hoped to be, yet you assume that I'm only throwing him out there to slander Jeff Hardy. No, Jim Duggan was more over for a longer period of time, when the business was actually popular. Yet, the, well he's popular argument never flies with Jim Duggan? Why not, it's essentially the only argument Jeff Hardy fans have. He's popular, you knwo what, alot of people are popular, you don't see them carrying gold belts around their waste.

I've read your posts and it is undeniable that you know plenty about wrestling. And, yes, Hacksaw Jim Duggan's popularity in the late 80s and early 90s rivals the popularity of some of the biggest stars ever. However, I think it is unfair to make an analogy between Duggan and Hardy because you make note of absolute popularity when what should be of import is relative popularity. In absolute terms, it is definitely possible that Jim Duggan was more popular than Hardy. However, Jim Duggan was never popular enough relative to other wrestlers during his time to merit consideration for a title. On the other hand, while Hardy may not be as popular as Duggan was, he is still more popular now than almost every professional wrestler on the current WWE roster (including Duggan).

No. It's because the WWE invest money into guys taht are no longer here. Here they have a situation where they know what they have, and yet still put their belt on the guy with two strikes. By giving the belt to Jeff Hardy with him being as unrepented as he has been, essentially enables the guy to do whatever he wants without any fear of consequence. What reason would Jeff Hardy have not to screw up again when the WWE is going to do nothing to him?

I'll ask Money Mayweather.

I can infer from this passage that you believe giving someone responsibility who has never had it and who has been undeserving of it will not actually make that certain someone clean up their act and live up to their responsibility. I, on the other hand, believe the exact opposite thing. But, I don't think there is anything right now that can resolve our difference of opinion; we will just have to wait and see what happens. If Jeff does screw up, I will gladly take the humiliation that will come from your justified gloating.

Actually I just did, again and again. You offer nothing but the same old sorry well the guys over argument which has about much weight to it as a paper clip. The guy is below average in the ring, has Warrioresque ability on the microphone. The only reason the guy is over is because he's colorful and does stuff thats going to leave him with a permanent bend in his back by the time he is 35.

And why in the world would anyone want to pay to watch Triple H vs. Jeff Hardy yet again on pay per view? You can only have this match so many time before people have had enough. What incentive would anyone have to buy this besides the fact that it is the Royal Rumble?

Giving Hardy the belt because he is popular is, I believe, an argument that definitely holds more weight than a paper clip. A significant majority of current WWE fans wished to see him win. And, I think WWE finally pulled the trigger in order to avoid the potential mass disillusionment that was hinted at by the booing crowds at Survivor Series. Do you sincerely believe that WWE could not put the belt on Hardy, and still see the type of consumer interest and faith that they would see with Hardy as champion? This is definitely not a rhetorical question, as I would love to hear what your alternative would be.

On a final note, I think fans would definitely like to Hardy/HHH...at Wrestlemania 25, and only if HHH is the one that attacked Hardy before Survivor Series. Going over HHH cleanly and decisively would give Hardy the push that he needs to be considered a serious player in WWE's main-event scene.

 

[Danmen001]

Alright, who was the moron that made Slyfox mad? Now we're gonna die, see, this is why we can't have good things. I'm also going with Monkey on this one, as he beat me to what I was going to say.

I assume people wonder why I, being the intelligent being that I am, mark for a one Jeff Hardy. Truth be told, I don't know. Maybe I'm a sucker for spots, and monkey's of a rainbow variety, more I like his selling, or maybe was suckered into liking Jeff. I don't particularly care, all I know is, that man is my favourite wrestler.

Now, did Jeff deserve the title? Absolutely not, and you're foolish for thinking wihtout a shdow of a doubt that he did. The WWE gave him one last chance, and so did I. Maybe it's because I'm a more forgiving (soft) than most others, but that doesn't really matter. I honestly hope Jeff can prove people wrong, and not fuck up again. Because if he doesn't, he will have beaten my trust, and everyone who thought to give him one last go.

As a side note, there is nothing wrong with spot monkeys.

 

[JaJaBings]

I don't mind Jeff Hardy becoming champion at all. Don't knock on the wrestlers, or even judge them, unless u've been through the shit they've been through.

The only consistent problem I have with WWE is their piss-poor booking. Jeff's title win should be dragged out until WM. IMO, having 2 face champs going into WM doesn't work.

WM's formula is always simple. Establish a dominant heel. Build up an underdog starting from a Rumble win. Let the said underdog win at WM and celebrate. With 2 face champs, things are gonna be tricky. Having the face champs retain their titles at WM won't yield the same effect as the abovementioned scenario.

Either that or, Cena or Hardy drops the title before WM. But I'm kinda sick of the recent short title reigns. Gotta rebuild credibility to the titles themselves, current crop of champions and challengers!

 

[Thumz9814]

Quite simple. Are you Pissed that Jeff Hardy has a major title because you believe he is still a mid-carder/a better tag-teamer, or are you Proud that he finally earned what he has worked his whole life for?

I choose Proud simply because I've always been a huge Hardy fan.

 

[La Mascara]

I am happy that he won the title. He puts his body on the line more than any wrestler. I don't like the way he won it, though.

Edge just became a transitional champion and he is better than that. It was pointless giving the title to edge just do drop it to Hardy within a couple of weeks.

The match itself should not have included outside interference. I bet HHH wanted that so not to look weak. Either way, a win is a win.

Hopefully Hardy holds the tile until NWO. This win ruined the wrestlemania moment of Hardy winning. Now I don't want Hardy in the main event. I would like to see Edge vs. HHH at WM25 and have Hardy win the title back at Summerslam, this time pinning HHH cleanly.

While all that happens, Matt should be pushed to main event status and have a Hardy vs. Hardy feud for the title. That would be interesting.

Overall, I'm content.

 

[FromTheSouth]

No one is going to be upset because they think he's a midarder. He spent the entire year, minus suspension, as a main eventer. He is firmly entrenched at the top for now.

People will be pissed because of the looming third strike. Number one, that strike isn't a given, and secondly, what if it does come?

Jeff Hardy is the most over guy in the WWE. The crowd chanted his name all together and loud for an appreciable time after the match. He had gone over HHH, HBK, Orton, and Y2J in the past year. He deserves at least a cup of coffee as the champ. The fans have annointed him champ. There was no way the WWE couldn't give him the belt. Now, if he fucks up again, then the WWE will explain it away. He will find out he failed, go out that night and get squashed and have to give the belt away on free TV, with career threatening injuries. The kids will think he got beat up, and those that know about the drug suspension will be those who knew he had two and cheered for him anyway.

Jeff deserves the belt, and I congratulate him.

 

[dantes_inferno]

im proud, ive been a HUGE hardy fan since they first jumped into the tag team scene, i just hope he doesnt screw it up. im so glad he finally got a world championship...and i was thinking, they have triple crown champions and grand slam champions, but has anyone else won not only a world championship, the IC championship, the wcw and world tag champ, european, light heavy weight and hardcore, thats pretty impressive to me, but then again, im a just huge fan >_>

 

[kilva]

Im glad Jeff Hardy finally won the title, but it should've been in WM. I expected him to win the Royal Rumble, and have a TLC match against Edge for the WWE Title, but I guess this does good as well. He is very over to the fans, even Triple H or HBK Undertaker cant match his charisma at this moment in time.

 

[Khalifa]

Very Proud of this. I am so Happy he won the gold. maybe it should of been a bit longer but still i am very happy about this. it has ruined the Jeff hardy main event at mania but maybe they just couldn't wait. or and this is a big or. he gets attacked again, has ot forfeit the title because he was hurt to bad, comes back to win the rumble/chamber and beats hhh/edge at mania. this would be awesome. because it would be just like his first run again. well sort off

 

[RVDgurl]

Jeff Hardy winning the title is a double edged sword. First of all, Hardy has been around the block. He has worked his way up the ranks and has paid his dues. He spent years in the tag team division and was built up in the mid card range after becoming a singles wrestler. He had some success as Intercontinental champion well before moving into the main event scene. This is the way it is supposed to happen. He's definately no over night success or flash in the pan.

Secondly, he is fresh blood. He's not a new face, but he's new to the championship scene. It gets extremely boring seeing Edge and Trips pass the belt back and forth. There needs to be the unexpected- and that is Jeff Hardy. It may be a little easier for me to swallow because I actually enjoy watching Jeff Hardy. But regardless of whether you like him or hate him, it still throws a bit more excitement in the mix.

On the other hand, there is the ever looming issue of substance abuse. Hardy is a risky guy to put the belt on. His demons have been well publicized over the past couple of years. He has already accumulated 2 strikes in wellness policy infractions, which puts him in a very dangerous place in regard to job security.

This is Hardy's test. At the very worst, he will be nothing more than a transition champion. Or this could be Hardy's time to shine. I guess only time will tell.