**MERGED** Jack Swagger, Zeb Coulter & Swagger's Arrest (Keep it all here!!)

[Jeritron5000]

"Hi. I'm Zeb Coulter and I hate immigrants." BOOO!!!!
"Hi. I'm Antonio Cesaro and I'm an immigrant." BOOO!!!!

CM Punk was right. People eat up things that are easy to digest.

So Swagger and Cesaro should feud if only to confuse people.

 

[HBsam31]

1.) Do you think this gimmick will work for Swagger and get him over as a heel?
Yeah I think it will if they keep with it. He was already getting some decent heat last night, and this could be just the thing to get Swagger really over as a heel.

2.) Who do you think his first feud using this persona will be against?
I could see this working against someone like Rey or Sin Cara. JBL did something similiar to this when he was feuding with Eddie over the title with the whole immagration thing.

3.) Do you think WWE will have the balls to persist with this gimmick over a reasonable period of time, at the risk of cutting to close to the bone?
I am not sure about this one. If one sponser gets mad at them and threatens to pull their ads I am sure WWE will back off. It just seems a bit to racist for this day and age. It is something wrestling has been using for a long time to get heels over, and I think we may be a bit to touchy for this to work over the long haul.

 

[Olan]

Must say I was totally caught offguard by that promo. I have been expecting a face Swagger to feud with anti-American Ceasaro. Kudos for throwing us a curveball. Not sure how long itwill last but it was a tad edgy. Obviously, to me anyway, setting up a feud with Del Rio.

 

[LoudClearVoice]

I really enjoyed the promo. I think it's the right direction to go with the Swagger character. I thought both Swagger and Coulter did really well. I do agree with a few others in here though: All it's going to take is one sponsor complaining and that's going to be the end of this storyline. I know they want Swagger in the the World Title picture but for the immediate future, they need him to win the US title with this gimmick. It's perfect. When they put him in World title picture, he can feud with ADR (Mexican), Sheamus (Irish), Jericho (Canadian).... Plus, they can then put over someone to "save America" by beating swagger. Good angle if they can sustain it.

 

[Papa Pillman]

Okay. I'll play.

I promise I wasn't trying to bait you into any sort of game.

First: SB 1070 is a law that required people to be able to show that they are in this nation legally, when and if stopped for other legitimate reasons. Please explain to me how this is a bad idea. "But, it's mean to Mexicans.' Only the ones who are already committing a crime, by being here illegally. Doesn't bother anyone else with the basic common sense required to carry their ID in their wallets.

Second: Republican support of SB 1070 doesn't show any form of racism, or dislike for immigration. The only thing shown by that poll is that most of the people who answered those polls are in favor of reducing illegal immigration. (Note that I keep using the word "illegal." It's kind of important.)

Third: It's already a federal law that immigrants must have this ID on them, at all times. So, what you're claiming is that SB 1070 somehow evil, because this law would require the Arizona Police to actually enforce a law that is...... wait for it...... already on the books.

SB 1070 very clearly mandates that: state law enforcement officers attempt to determine an individual's immigration status during a "lawful stop, detention or arrest", or during a "lawful contact" not specific to any activity when there is reasonable suspicion that the individual is an illegal immigrant

In other words, the law encourages officers to enact a systematic practice of Racial Profiling. The law is inherently racist. No amount of right wing rhetoric that is spewed intending to justify it is going to change that fact. So you can give up that up right now.

Which translates to one thing. People actually do see characters who go this far out into the fringe as being what the mainstream right-wing is. It's simply not. My issue was never with how the character is being portrayed, on camera. My issue is the fact that people are seeing this as a showing of how the majority of people on the right feel. And, frankly, you've proven my point, and done so with impressive skill. Thank you.

No. No one is going to see this character as portraying the mass opinion of the mainstream right wing. And I never implied it would. You did yourself. You're the one defensive about the fact that a character who portrays the beliefs of a distinct sect of the extreme conservative right(one which is larger than you're letting on) may somehow negatively effect the views that people have of you or others who hold your political beliefs.

However, if you can sit here and justify SB 1070 as some sort of positive piece of legislation, I may indeed have reason question why exactly you're upset with the way that Mantel's character is presented.

But you are right about this one thing: I do make my points with impressive skill.

Now, Dutch Mantell is a full paradigm shift for Swagger's character. First off, it's a VERY easy character to outright hate, since his attitude is, to be frank, revolting. I will admit, though. Up until he said the words "cross our border," I was really hoping for the swerve being that the characters were enraged by "YOLO" and "Swag." Had that happened, I would have instantly stopped seeing Swagger and Coulter as heels.

So when you thought that his charcter was going to radically oppose the mass majority of urban youth you didn't percieve it as heelish; however, when it turned out that it was instead based on a portion of conservative extremists and may possibly cause people to stereotype right wingers then that was much more heel-like to you?

Fully back on topic(for the record)...

And, that's what Dutch did right. He kept his promo very simple, very to the point, and very easy to play off of for next time. And, he ended it with something that can be easily remembered, both by Swagger/Coulter, to get their points across, and by whichever babyface eventually stops them, to rub their faces in their wrongdoings. "We, the people."

I agree 100%, excellently written and delivered promo(I would bet my house that Mantel wrote every word himself while the writers sat back and marveled at how powerful a correctly well written promo could be, no matter how simple).

From what I can tell, the single biggest trap that writers fall into, when writing villains, is to not flesh out the underlying reason for their actions. In WWE, Kane is an exceptional example of this. His entire character is built around, "I am evil, so I do things that are evil, because I like being evil. Yay, evil!" (And, if you've watched the Kane DVD, you've seen that, outside of "yay, evil!" I was not exaggerating.) But, nobody thinks in those terms. Or, to be more accurate, no sane person thinks in those terms.

Which is why we are reminded that Kane is not a "sane person", but rather a "destructive monster"(not to mention one with a pretty fucked up childhood that produced his "underlying reason" that you somehow missed).

The most important aspect of being a villain is that your character believes that he is doing the right thing. After all, everyone is the hero in their own story. Swagger and Coulter actually believe that they are right. And, that conviction brings out mannerisms that simply do not occur if all you've done is memorize a script. "My character would say this" is much easier to convey than "this is what I've been told to say."

No Mantel is an amazing performer who can beleivably portray a character. I'm sure he doesn't buy into 1% of the racist and garbage ideals that his character so brilliantly delivered. That's also what many good heels are able to do.

Hopefully, Swagger will spend a significant amount of time with Dutch, and take every possible opportunity to learn from him. If this gimmick has any longevity, this can do absolutely nothing but help Jack Swagger for the rest of his career.

I fully agree.

For a young worker like Swagger with alot to learn, especially when it comes to cutting a promo, there are few better talents for which to understudy.

 

[PinkStranger]

1) Yes, this can definitely get Swagger over as a major heel. It's relevant and entertaining.
2) Obvious fueds would include ADR and Rey. I think some would see Swagger as the face and ADR as the heel in that fued.
3) I fear that WWE will chicken out (Muhammad Hassan was my first thought when the promo started). As a Swagger fan I don't want to see him go back to floundering and losing to Santino. Hopefully, they will push ethnocentrism strongly over racism to differentiate. They could do that through a fued with the bright white Sheamus by Swagger targeting him for pushing his Irish heritage while making money in America. I do have hope for this character though. I hope Swagger chanting "We the People" was possible foreshadowing of a stable, which would mean there could be long term plans...wishful thinking on my part possibly.

On a side note, when Zeb Coulter mentioned outsiders coming here and not being able to speak I found myself instantly thinking of Antonio Cesaro. I'm a Cesaro fan, but he was brutal on commentary last night.

 

[Caitiff]

SB 1070 very clearly mandates that: state law enforcement officers attempt to determine an individual's immigration status during a "lawful stop, detention or arrest", or during a "lawful contact" not specific to any activity when there is reasonable suspicion that the individual is an illegal immigrant

Okay. I readily admit. I missed that part. My apologies.

However, you didn't read the federal law that SB 1070 was written to enforce, did you? I linked to the exact text, and everything.

However, if you can sit here and justify SB 1070 as some sort of positive piece of legislation, I may indeed have reason question why exactly you're upset with the way that Mantel's character is presented.

I don't have a problem with the way his character is being presented. When he said "real Americans," I took that to mean "people who are here illegally." Or, is actually enforcing the laws that are on the books considered racist, all of a sudden?

So when you thought that his character was going to radically oppose the mass majority of urban youth you didn't perceive it as heelish; however, when it turned out that it was instead based on a portion of conservative extremists and may possibly cause people to stereotype right wingers then that was much more heel-like to you?

My comment about YOLO and Swag have nothing to do with race. In the current popular culture, those are used to excuse self-destructive behavior that can only serve to weaken the next generation. The current generation will teach the next. Let's take a moment to look at what the next generation of children are actually learning.

But, you proved my point again. Thank you.


So, back on topic, yet again.

Which is why we are reminded that Kane is not a "sane person", but rather a "destructive monster"(not to mention one with a pretty fucked up childhood that produced his "underlying reason" that you somehow missed).

There's a difference between someone else calling a person a "destructive monster," or "insane," and using those words to describe oneself.

No Mantel is an amazing performer who can believably portray a character. I'm sure he doesn't buy into 1% of the racist and garbage ideals that his character so brilliantly delivered. That's also what many good heels are able to do.

Oh, Jesus H. Christ. You mean that I'm now required to say the words "the character" when I'm talking about a character? I did not say "Dutch Mantell," or give his real name. Likewise, I did not use Jack Swagger's real name. Zeb Coulter and Jack Swagger (I mean the characters, since, evidently, I have to say that, for you to understand.) feel that their actions are justified.

I mean, I can understand saying "the character," to differentiate between the on-screen persona and the off-screen person, if we're discussing someone who wrestles under their real name. But, come on, dude.

 

[GSM]

Leave it to Dutch Mantell to actually create interest in a rather young wrestler who was floating in a void of nothingness with a mixture of Maddox.

The character has obviously been done before countless times, in more recent memory by JBL who actually had skits in which he beat up people that snuck over the border and then celebrated the fact.

It is not new and only a vehicle to give Jack Swagger one last chance and also create a heel for the growing hispanic audience.

I just hope that people lighten up, you don't have to vote neither Swagger nor Mantell into congress although that would not entirely be outside the realm of possibility (See Mr. Thermite Paint Jesse Ventura)

 

[MCMG]

I've never heard of this guy before last night but surely it can only be good. Swaggers' mic work is very poor. He cannot convey any sense of emotion and make his promos feel real. They are just painful to watch. I like him as a wrestler - he is very talented and can put on some of the best matches in the WWE. Swagger was best as the arrogant heel but that seems to have gone.

This manager type-figure will hopefully guide Swagger with promos. It will help Swagger maintain big-name feuds because he could cope with the back-and-forth on the microphone. Mic-work is now paramount in the WWE so i'm glad Seb has joint forces with Swagger.

 

[NegativeFeedback]

In about 4 months, Swagger will turn on Dutch and become a huge face for putting this racist redneck in an ankle lock.

I think this was a great idea to garner some heat, but an even better one to catalyze Swagger's face turn. It will happen soon enough.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Looking back over the whole thing, it was controversial enough that it generated a buzz and created some discomfort. However, it didn't go over the line. Zeb Coulter, aka Dirty Dutch Mantel, didn't start some sort of hate speech directed towards immigrants, he didn't use any sort of racial slurs against Latinos, he didn't some like some ignorant redneck bigot with no clue as to what he was talking about and the fact that Mantel is a legit Vietnam veteran adds a real degree of reality to this. I actually have an uncle who was also in Vietnam. He has nothing whatsoever against people of color, nor any religious bigotry. He's a good person that's more than uneasy about the fact that so many people can enter the country undocumented. Fifteen years ago, nobody really gave a damn it seemed. Since 9/11 however, it's genuinely made a lot of people afraid. There are people on both sides of the fence that share that kind of fear. If WWE can tap into that to some degree without going bat shit crazy with it, then this could work out for them and put Swagger on another level.

This angle has a hardcore right wing viewpoint to it, at least that's the feeling that I got after hearing it. If you listen, Zeb was getting the "What?" treatment from the live crowd but that soon stopped when they realized that he wasn't going to be giving a standard promo. A lot of fans didn't have a clue who he was, yet they quickly shut their friggin' traps with all the "What?" bullshit and started behaving like actual fans for a little bit.

It also goes right along with Swagger calling himself "A Real American". A lot of right wing conservatives have a simple point of view: if you don't believe in what I believe in, then you're not a patriot. If you don't see things the way I see them, then you despise this country. If WWE keeps this up, especially during shows in more liberal states throughout New England & out on the west coast, in cities with a large Latino population; it has the potential to draw some crazy heat.

 

[Da Solo]

1.) The gimmick will work,that's for damn sure. Even WWE creative couldn't screw up how genius this idea is. Give the All American American a right wing extremist manager who is anti-immigration and probably a closet racist when your reigning WHC is a Mexican aristocrat. Pure genius. And Zeb, in one promo, put everyone's eyes on Swagger after Henry totally eclipsed him for the past couple of weeks. At first the crowd seemed just slightly annoyed and had fun with the guy, then they realized this dude was no joke, and he shut their shit up real quick when he got on the "America doesn't look like me part anymore". That growing heat was cool to witness firsthand. This guy is great considering Swagger is worthless for anything not involving ring technique. His promo ability sucks, he lost whatever charisma he had when he stopped doing those push ups en route to the ring and he has no show of emotion whatsoever; Zeb is the perfect cover-up for Swagger's weakness.

2.) The only reason Zeb was thought up, imo, was to give Swagger a legit reason to win the Chamber, seeing as how Henry took all the attention. He's going to feud with ADR in what looks to be a borderline classic buildup to a WM world title match (yes, I feel that strongly about it). The right-wing political machine vs. foreign excellence is a first in WWE, and this should be good for not only Zeb (as a manager) and Swagger (as a character), but also for Del Rio, as WWE's official top hispanic moneymaker and babyface.

3.) WWE is going to be very careful with this one. The whole promo I was wondering when he was going to flat out say he hates Mexicans, but he used every way possible to avoid any semblance of overt racism or manifest destiny. Zeb is good, but the character is far from PG unless the kid is up on his personal events. All I can say is that WWE is going to keep him on a very short lease to avoid another AW.

 

[cawsnallthis]

I'm not sure if this angle will be allowed to have legs or get cut off at the knees, but the bottom line is that a wrestling world that has Dutch Mantell in it is far better than one that doesn't.

 

[Trance Metaphor]

I've never been a fan of Jack Swagger. I liked what he did on ECW and always acknowledged his in-ring skills, but he was always that one annoying guy that I wanted to see go away. He was stale for the longest time even though he showed hints of charisma. His sudden change of attitude when he won the World Heavyweight Championship didn't really help him get over either. And when he fell back down the ladder of mid-card limbo, I thought it'd just be a matter of time before WWE released him.

Well, his surprise return made me sigh with disappointment. I was going, "Oh great, that same old music and that same old ring gear and that same old heel attitude." Then, in just two more showings, something different occurred to me. Jack Swagger's old man hair is no more. That 1950's haircut he was sporting is now covering his unshaven face. He looks both aggressive and psychotic now. I love it! And with Zeb Coulter here to be his mouthpiece? Brilliant. Zeb was already in the WWE before, although as obscure as that might be for people. He also managed Bradshaw who later on as JBL did the whole "immigrant" storyline with Eddie Guerrero. This is very reminiscent of that if the WWE is indeed going with an eventual angle with Alberto Del Rio. I think Zeb is great on the mic. He has natural mic work abilities as opposed to Jack Swagger's monotonous delivery and no expression. This might just be the ticket to putting Jack Swagger back on the path to glory and relevancy. I only expect good things from this.

 

[minoru808]

1.) Do you think this gimmick will work for Swagger and get him over as a heel?

I think this could very easily work. It's not much different than the gimmick he already had, except he now has a mouthpiece.

2.) Who do you think his first feud using this persona will be against?

Unsure on this one. I figured he would come back as a face and feud with Cesaro. But since that wasn't the case he will probably get to destroy Santino a few times, along with Sin Cara just to show some dominance against "foreigners". Then he probably moves on to a Del Rio feud and will have a Submissions match.

3.) Do you think WWE will have the balls to persist with this gimmick over a reasonable period of time, at the risk of cutting to close to the bone?

WWE obviously likes the guy to give him ANOTHER push like this. Most guys would have been released or demoted to NXT by now. I see them keeping at this at least a full year. What I would prefer is Swagger in a tag team or small stable of foreigner hating ALL AMERICAN AMERICANS.

 

[The Brain]

I loved what I saw from Swagger and Zeb last night but this is my concern.

All the potential in the world for awesomeness, and mega heat.

Unfotunately, all its gonna take is one sponsor to get their panties all in a bunch about it, and its right out the fucking window, and Swagger goes back to doing nothing.

I have the biggest hope and the biggest fear for this.

I really hope WWE is allowed to run with this angle. This was a breath of fresh air. Who would have thought Dutch Mantel could be a relevant figure in WWE in 2013? I love the look. Unkempt facial hair and a face that looks like a catcher's mask. He looks like an old wrestler instead of some tv star. He's about as old school as it gets and it took this old school guy about four minutes to make Jack Swagger more interesting than he's been in four years. I've liked Swagger from the start but I think we can all agree he's always been missing something. He's found it in Zeb. It seems a little strange to say that after one promo but sometimes you can just tell. This could work really well if WWE sticks with it. I just hope we're not sitting here a few years from now talking about Swagger and Zeb like we do Sean O'haire.

 

[Dagger Dias]

So much for Swagger turning face upon return. This could be great if WWE let it play itself out, so I'm certainly going to give it a chance. Swagger having a manager couldn't hurt and if the promo from Raw was an indicator of what will be coming in the future, then I think we are in for a good run with these two. This may very well be exactly what Swagger needs in order to get back into the World Heavyweight Championship scene while being taken seriously for once. As much as I wanted to see him turn face to defeat Cesaro as a patriotic face, this will benefit him more if it's done properly. All it took was that one promo and the Swagger/Zeb angle already has my attention.

The first big feud will most likely be against Del Rio. If things go well for Swagger we could be seeing him challenge Alberto for the World Heavyweight Championship at Wrestlemania and I would not be against a longer feud between the two of them. With Zeb around it is sure to be more interesting than Swagger's previous persona would have been if placed back in the world title tier. Zeb Coulter is a very strange name, I might add. I am concerned that WWE either stop this when they fear it gets too controversial or somehow manage to screw it up with bad booking, but I'm giving it a chance. It could be really good and I hope it will be, for Swagger's sake. After having managed an announcer, a couple of bad title reigns that could have been far better, and being overshadowed by his tag team parner Ziggler, Swagger deserves a memorable run at the top where he can be taken seriously as a threat. If this doesn't get him to that point, nothing will.

 

[Pedigree1]

I just loved that Promo from Good ol uncle Zeb! That promo took alot of guts especially in this PC and PG era! Done properly this could propel Swags into the main event WHC scene very soon. This was a breath of fresh air and Zeb probably pissed alot of people off but not me.

Swagger needs to be this eras kurt angle. Hell he should have been already. Dont screw this up WWE you have a very promising thing right now keep it going. But the one thing i fear is some company getting sand in the vag and bitching and complaining to the E to pull the plug immediately or else they will pull their sponsor.

 

[dotty_84]

This could help all parties involved if ADR get involved and they have WM match a submission stipulation would be bloody brilliant also. It could do wonders for ADR as a babyface because the crowd aren't loud enough in states lacking latino population. I still want Swagger to change that bloody music and wrestling gear. How intense would it be if he came out to jungle ambiance cutting in with gun fire and war cries ala Vietnam.

 

[fenderjapan]

A mouthpiece like Dutch Mantel is exactly what JS needs. This is great news for Jack Swagger's career. I look forward to seeing more of what these two are capable of. Dutch's Zeb character is so believable its almost scary.

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

All the potential in the world for awesomeness, and mega heat.

Unfotunately, all its gonna take is one sponsor to get their panties all in a bunch about it, and its right out the fucking window, and Swagger goes back to doing nothing.

I have the biggest hope and the biggest fear for this.

Also, Dutch Mantell FTW. Hilarious on commentary, for those wondering.

I think this COULD be a great gimmick, it is definitely going to get some serious heat for Jack Swagger if WWE are able to push this properly.

NorCal is right about this though, it will take just one sponsor to kick up a fuss, or a few people to complain about the "racism" on-screen and the character of Zeb will be gone, which could greatly hold back Swaggsy. In my opinion it could end up being another Muhammed Hassan or Abraham Washington, where one wrong remark or action could result in someone getting taken off tv very quickly.

I hope that isnt the case though, Swagger is a pretty talented guy and I think its about time WWE gave him something new and interesting to do. Fingers crossed this gimmick and manager work out for him.

 

[I Heart Cena]

Yes, this will create real heat, because these characters are straight up racist.

The first feud will come against A.C. He's already getting over with his jabs at stereotypes.

I doubt the World Wrestling Federation will stick to this. It's gonna get complaints from people who think they're not heels.


I'd like to see Tatanka come back to show them who the Real Americans are. Tatanka can lead a troop of people who have indigenous blood, which would include all the Hispanics on the roster, and maybe some white guys who are more than 1/4 Indian.

We can have dueling stables of Real Americans. Tea Party idiots vs. actual, real Americans (indigenous).

 

[George Steele's Barber]

I'd like to see Tatanka come back to show them who the Real Americans are. Tatanka can lead a troop of people who have indigenous blood, which would include all the Hispanics on the roster, and maybe some white guys who are more than 1/4 Indian.

We can have dueling stables of Real Americans. Tea Party idiots vs. actual, real Americans (indigenous).

I'm not sure if you are serious about this but it makes me think that Vince will dig up Hacksaw at some point as opposed to Tatanka in order to give Swagger the easy time killing and heat building feud before trying to build him further.

Scratch that, if Vince is serious about Swagger and doesn't want to rush the blatant racism he may give Swagger the Jericho rub at WM at shortly thereafter.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Why would Duggan be better than Tatanka? Duggan acted tea-partyish during his run.

I don't think Duggan is better, it's just more likely that Vince would want him working for the company if he is looking for a legend to throw to the wolves (ala Lawler pre-heart blip). The guy has come back for a match a million times.

Your idea isn't bad, it makes sense. I just don't think it is likely.

 

[MrHashasheen]

This is basically Muhammad Hassan in reverse, and I'm going to love every minute of it before the inevitable media uproar ends it before it's time. I just love gimmicks like this that have two different sides of presentation and response.