Meltzer Gives Punk vs. Cena *****
- Thread starter Coco
- Start date
FunKay the Inevitable
People Like Me, We Don't Play
That's quite staggering. Meltzer has had some sort of problem giving those out to WWE matches for a long time.
Hulk Hogan's Brother
Stop asking me what I'm gonna do!!!
WOW. Pretty huge coming from Meltzer. I was pretty sure he wouldn't give any WWE match the full bounty again.
Big Nick Dudley
Nick
Chicago + storyline + actual match = 5 stars. I agree.
EDIT: I should be clear about this - if this match had been random, taken place out of nowhere, this exact same match, I wouldn't go higher than 4 stars. However, when you combine the storyline, the crowd, over 30 minutes of action... I'd say 5 stars is fair.
EDIT: I should be clear about this - if this match had been random, taken place out of nowhere, this exact same match, I wouldn't go higher than 4 stars. However, when you combine the storyline, the crowd, over 30 minutes of action... I'd say 5 stars is fair.
shattered dreams
Hexagonal Hedonist
Meltzer has long been predictable in his bias. He just did it to support Punk.
I don't see how he's biased to Punk in this situation. This WAS a career-making performance by Punk, just like he said in his commentary.
Here's the full writeup he did for the match:
I think he's spot on here, though I'm still undecided on whether it was ****3/4 or ***** in my book. Decisions, decisions.
Here's the full writeup he did for the match:
Meltzer said:6. C.M. Punk pinned John Cena to win the WWE title in 33:42. Punk was super over. Lawler said he’s never seen this much home town emotion in his career. Yes, Jerry Lawler, who got this kind of a reaction every time he challenged for the world title in Memphis over a dozen year or so period said this. Punk was wearing a T-shirt that read, “Best in the World,” which is kind of gimmick pilfering. The announcers were pushing this as one of the biggest matches in the history of the promotion, and at the end, you probably could make a great case for it. Fans started with a “You can’t wrestle” chant at Cena. Punk was great at working the crowd, making a facial like, “You’re chanting this at me,” sarcastically, and then pointing to Cena. Cena took Punk down and Punk put Cena in the guard. Cole then announced that Punk had Cena in the Anaconda vise. Yes, the freaking guard was called the Anaconda Vise. Made worse that at the finish, Punk actually used the Anaconda Vise and Cole had no clue what it was. Then Cole put over Chicago, saying it’s been one of the greatest WWE cities for the past 40 to 50 years. If that’s the case, where are Crusher and Bruiser’s Hall of Fame plaques.
Punk used a hiptoss, dropkick and headlock takeover spot. The announcers then brought up the 1997 Survivor Series. They noted that happened because Bret Hart wanted to leave the company with the championship belt. You’d think when he came back and they settled everything, that they wouldn’t keep telling that story. Cena tried the Attitude Adjustment, Punk tried the GTS, and both escaped. Punk threw some kicks and Cena clotheslined the hell out of him. Dueling chants. Even here, the women were cheering for Cena, even though this was as loud as any pro-Cena reaction ever (RVD at the Manhattan Center in 2006 was as loud, but there’s a difference between 2,500 people and nearly 15,000 people). Right after that chant, Lawler said he didn’t think there was one Cena fan in the building. Thank God the crowd was so great because this announcing was pure shit. Punk put Cena in a triangle (three announcers, not one had a clue what he was doing) and Cena stood up. Punk started throwing elbows before Cena could drop him, and then tossed Cena out of the ring. Punk went outside, and gave a high-five to Colt Cabana. This led to a “Colt Cabana” chant, which wasn’t acknowledged.
Punk used a kneedrop off the middle rope onto Cena’s back while Cena was on the apron. Punk landed some knees, whipped Cena into the buckles and Punk missed a tackle and flew into the post. More dueling chants. Cole quoted Gorilla Monsoon, saying, “If you’re not in this business to be champion, you’re in the wrong business.” He may have said that as a worked quote, but the Monsoon quote he always said, because he hated people who were in wrestling to gratify their egos and not get business, was “If you’re not in this business to make money, you’re in the wrong business.” Punk came off the top rope with a crossbody block, but landed low, and instead of landing on Cena’s chest, landed on his knee. Cena appeared to injure his right knee. Cena tried to walk it off. It was apparently legit and not serious, because it didn’t play into the rest of the match. Cena then suplexed Punk from inside the ring to the floor. Cena, when taking the fall, twisted completely to land on his left side and protect his right knee. Cena with a fisherman suplex. Booker T talked about how Cena is turning the crowd toward him. He said the same thing about Orton, and it wasn’t true in either match. Cena got a near fall with a powerslam. Punk started throwing punches with the crowd popping for each punch. Cena used a form of abdominal stretch, but Punk eye raked and hip tossed out. They knocked each other down with simultaneous clotheslines. Punk got a near fall with a schoolboy, but then missed a knee into the corner. Cena slammed him and the crowd was booing like crazy. Cena went into his usual comeback phase. Punk crossed him up with a kick to the head. Crowd went nuts. Punk landed a flying knee that knocked Cena out of the ring. Punk followed with a tope. Punk went for a springboard move but Cena moved and Punk fell into the ring. Cena did the five knuckle shuffle, and went for the AA, but Punk landed on his feet, kicked Cena in the face and swept his leg for a near fall. Punk went for the GTS, but Cena reversed into a gut wrench for a near fall. Punk with two flying knees, the second of which looked like it landed right on the chin like an MMA blow.
He followed with a bulldog and a springboard clothesline for a near fall. Punk threw some kicks to the chest, but Cena countered with the STF. Punk made the rope. Punk came back with a kick to the head and Cena kicked out. Punk used a crossbody and Cena rolled through and picked Punk up and put him on his shoulders for the AA again. Punk escaped, went for the GTS, but Cena reversed back into the STF in an awesome spot.Punk went to the ropes, but Cena pulled him into the center of the ring. Punk put his hand up to tap, and then got a look on his face as if he mentally said to himself, “I’m not tapping.” He then reversed out of the STF into the Anaconda vise. Crowd was going crazy. Cena ended up breaking the hold, and landed the AA, but Punk kicked out. Place was electric at this point. Cena came off the top for his leg slice, but Punk side stepped and went for the pin, but Cena kicked out. Punk did the Frank Shamrock sleep deal (the one Mickey Rourke used in “The Wrestler”and went for the GTS. Cena got out again, and snapped Punk’s neck on the top rope. Cena hit the leg slice for a near fall, hit the AA, and Cena kicked out a second time. Cena put Punk on his shoulders and climbed up to the middle rope for another AA, but Punk started throwing elbows to get out of it. Punk used a Frankensteiner off the top rope, then hit a flying knee and the GTS, but Cena flew out of the ring. Cena got back in the ring. Vince and Laurinatis came out. Cena got the STF on and Vince yelled to ring the bell and sent Laurinaitis to the ring to ring it. Cena broke the hold, cut off Laurinaitis and punched him. Punk used the GTS and got the pin. Vince started screaming to cut the music and that this isn’t going to end this way. He screamed for Del Rio to come out. Del Rio ran to the ring and got kicked in the head. Punk then ran into the crowd and the show went off the air. After the show ended and Laurinaitis got up, Vince decked Laurinatis again. This was more than just a great match, but a career making moment. *****
- Dave Meltzer
I think he's spot on here, though I'm still undecided on whether it was ****3/4 or ***** in my book. Decisions, decisions.
Yeah; stick some line breaks in that and I might look at it.
My stance on star ratings is long since established, and even if I were the kind to hand them out I would have a lot of difficulty in awarding a score of 20/20 to a match that had quite transparent room for improvement. Cena and Punk had quite a few noticeable botches in it. I didn't give a shit, but botches are, by definition, imperfections, and as such a match with lots of them can't really be classed as perfect.
I think with Metlzar it's more a case that he's only interested in what's new and exciting. That's why the five star rating has completely dried up in recent years. I don't believe that Manami Toyota has had more top quality matches that the entire WWE roster combined over the course of fifty years, she just happened to coincide with one of Meltzar's fads.
Good as Cena/Punk was, the idea that no match in the WWE has matched it for fifteen years is pretty ludicrous. The reason it got the nod ahead of... for example: Taker's recent Mania outings has everything to do with its status as a landscape shifting encounter, and almost nothing to do with the quality of the performance between the ropes.
Personally I approve of that method of thinking, but it seems to rather go against the logic that Meltzar has historically deployed when promoting indy or Asian wrestling.
So yeah. That.
My stance on star ratings is long since established, and even if I were the kind to hand them out I would have a lot of difficulty in awarding a score of 20/20 to a match that had quite transparent room for improvement. Cena and Punk had quite a few noticeable botches in it. I didn't give a shit, but botches are, by definition, imperfections, and as such a match with lots of them can't really be classed as perfect.
I think with Metlzar it's more a case that he's only interested in what's new and exciting. That's why the five star rating has completely dried up in recent years. I don't believe that Manami Toyota has had more top quality matches that the entire WWE roster combined over the course of fifty years, she just happened to coincide with one of Meltzar's fads.
Good as Cena/Punk was, the idea that no match in the WWE has matched it for fifteen years is pretty ludicrous. The reason it got the nod ahead of... for example: Taker's recent Mania outings has everything to do with its status as a landscape shifting encounter, and almost nothing to do with the quality of the performance between the ropes.
Personally I approve of that method of thinking, but it seems to rather go against the logic that Meltzar has historically deployed when promoting indy or Asian wrestling.
So yeah. That.
Nate DaMac
Fuck erbody but me
Honestly, I care more about what The Sign Guy thinks of a match than I do Meltzer. But at least all of his followers who treat his word like Gospel can be on the side of logic as well.
"Lots" of botches Gelgarin? From my two viewings I noticed a grand total of one "botch" in the entire match on the springboard attempt by Punk early in the match. I saw no other botches.
I love how fucking EVERYONE was calling this a five star match a few days ago, and now because Meltzer agrees suddenly people are starting to talk shit about it. By god, do you people blindly hate this man's opinion that much? Everyone's gotta be an anti-IWC rebel these days, huh?
I love how fucking EVERYONE was calling this a five star match a few days ago, and now because Meltzer agrees suddenly people are starting to talk shit about it. By god, do you people blindly hate this man's opinion that much? Everyone's gotta be an anti-IWC rebel these days, huh?
shattered dreams
Hexagonal Hedonist
X, you really do not see any smark bias in that eyesore you quoted?
EVERYONE? If that means everyone except the same couple people that are saying the same things here then maybe. I do not know how anyone can watch that match and not notice the sloppiness. Sure it managed to transcend it eventually but to deny it even exists?
EVERYONE? If that means everyone except the same couple people that are saying the same things here then maybe. I do not know how anyone can watch that match and not notice the sloppiness. Sure it managed to transcend it eventually but to deny it even exists?
Nate DaMac
Fuck erbody but me
Isn't it just SD?
Not really. Certainly no more "smarky" than some of the criticisms you made about this same match a few days ago man. I see a wrestling fan expressing his love for a wrestling match, just like the rest of us, and doing so by awarding it the highest possible accolade he can give it. Like everyone else here was doing 3 days ago.
Big Nick Dudley
Nick
While I'm not exactly siding with SD, finding flaws in that match isn't "smarky." I thought it was a bit sloppy, and I believe that's a legitimate complaint.
Blue Chipper
Shapeshifting Humanoid
I don't remember many botches, either. However, I do remember another instance: Cena attempted the AA, CM Punk tried to block it and land on his feet, a la HBK and Jericho, but he landed awkwardly on the mat.
Nate DaMac
Fuck erbody but me
Well coming from the same people who shat all over JGlass for saying similar things about Daniels/AJ, it loses some merit in my eyes.
Joe's Gonna Kill You
The Hunt is On
No one said AJ Daniels was *****
shattered dreams
Hexagonal Hedonist
He figuratively spent about half the piece complaining about the announcers, mostly related to names of submissions. What am I supposed to call that? It is pretty easy to show he has been biased against WWE in some way for a while and guilty of over hyping indy type stuff. I do not think he changed overnight. He just saw a prime opportunity to do both at the same time.
Nate DaMac
Fuck erbody but me
I didn't say anyone said that. After seeing the match, I'd have laughed anyone who did into submission. It was good, but it barely would have got 3 1/2 out of me.
No, I don't bother typing out all of the *s when I have the numbers right in front of me.
You're making the mistake of assuming that everybody on the internet is the same person. I don't think any of the people suggesting this is not a 5* match were previously suggesting the opposite. (I'm not saying it wasnt a five star match by the way - I don't think star ratings display any kind of objective quality, as and such any match can have any rating depending on the viewer - when I was 10 The Brothers of Destruction vs Kronik was a 5* match)
Lots of botches is pushing it I'll concede, but there was more than enough sloppiness to be noticeable. There was the cross body, at least one shitty execution of the GTS and the spot where Punk was supposed to land on his feet from the AA, but pretty much just ended up landing on his back and then immediately getting up.
Lots of botches is pushing it I'll concede, but there was more than enough sloppiness to be noticeable. There was the cross body, at least one shitty execution of the GTS and the spot where Punk was supposed to land on his feet from the AA, but pretty much just ended up landing on his back and then immediately getting up.
Nate DaMac
Fuck erbody but me
He landed on his ass. His body was at a 90 degree angle, not even close to being on his back.
There was also the flipover counter to Cena's back suplex lift that he landed on his ass for, and the cross body that was already mentioned. Though Cena covered for the last one brilliantly.
But then, those slight botches sort of added to the story of the match in a way. These two are fighting for everything, and they're doing everything they can to avoid defeat, even if it wasn't perfectly executed.
Besides, this angle's been based in realism from the beginning, and how real is perfection?
The Holy One
What's really good?
Even though I agree with the rating, I must ask how this is the first 5* WWE match he's gave since HBK/Taker HIAC?
No offense is meant here SD, but I don't think you actually read the Obsever. If you did, you'd know that Meltzer actually praises a whole lot of what the WWE does these days and has for awhile. In fact the guy doesn't even watch puro or indy wrestling whatsoever anymore. The only person at the Obsever who even rates indy wrestling sometimes is Bryan Alvarez, and that's only for the ROH iPPVs. They have different guys totally who handle puro, lucha, and most indy stuff that they don't even really converse with anymore. They just stick mainly to UFC, WWE, and TNA.
He's a big Cena fan too, the enemy of the supposed ignorant smarkdom masses. I agree it was a bit tedious to complain about Cole's announcing because we know Cole sucks, but he gets caught up in minor details like that alot. He never says anything about Punk carrying Cena or anything though and praised the whole thing and gave it five stars, so it didn't come off as very smarky to me. Generally anytime a John Cena match is being praised as a five star affair, that doesn't seem "smarky" to me, atleast not according to the smark stereotypes.