Mark Madden - your opinions?

[Ferbian]

What?? Hold on just a minute...are you telling me that the PGWWE has a HARDCORE show that they put on once a year??
How the fuck have I missed this...what is this show called and where can I see it??

Extreme Rules, and TLC focuses around hardcore wrestling matches. Therefore it would mean it's being done twice a year. And in some way or another you could slightly regard the fact that we saw a no holds barred Iron Man Match at Breaking Point.

So yes it is being performed on a yearly basic. We've seen an extreme rules based Pay Per View ever since One Night Stand. It does not need to be all blood and gore for it to be a hardcore wrestling thing. Let's remember ECW was not purely hardcore. One Night Stand 2005 and 2006 did not purely consist of hardcore wrestling. Eddie Guerrero vs Chris Benoit was a clean hold for hold wrestling match.

So it is happening once a year in ther way that ECW is being represented in some manner. And now TNA wants a bite on it. I've already stated my case on why I find it ridiculous for TNA to want to take a piece of the pie that was already smashed in the face of the clown.

And for those who didn't get that metaphor. Trying to harvest more of a promotion that was already ruined by WWE. Yes I'm a WWE fan, but I won't deny that ECW was slowly removed from it's original concept when presented by WWE compared to the 90's ECW.

 

[Blush]

I'm just waiting for the PPV to (Hopefully) be the pivotal step for TNA coming into it's own and finding a niche. Or, at least a more stable foot hold.

From previous postings on the forum with re-postings of articles, the "plan" that was posted might (In my dreams, maybe? lol..) slowly start kicking into effect after the PPV. TNA needs to up their game and use the PG-14 rating to their benefit, especially since WWE has gone PG. Going this nostalgic route might be what they need to kickstart it, with familiar hardcore faces and to offer a more "adult" alternative. If they want to be different than WWE, that's what they need to do. Capitalize. (If they don't completely drop the ball at the PPV)

I highly doubt whomever they're bringing in for this PPV will be getting steady work other than a one shot deal.

Would love to see more hardcore matches involving the X-Division. (Sadly, I preferred TNA when they had dancing cage girls. Horrendous, I know!) TNA has already come a long way from that dingy little Asylum, and growing pains continue. Look how long it took WWF/WWE to come into it's own as a sports entertainment super giant.

But, I've strayed OT. Too much. lol~ But, On Madden, I can see where he's going with it, and all of the faults he's posted are pretty spot on, but that doesn't mean that things cannot be changed around and advice taken.

TNA isn't going to fix itself t'morrow, so I'll wait and see what happens in the coming months. I'll cross my fingers that it smooths itself out, because more competition the better.

 

[Star-ratz]

Extreme Rules, and TLC focuses around hardcore wrestling matches.

Lets finish this sentence....Extreme Rules, and TLC focuses around hardcore wrestling matches but as they are produced by the PGWWE they are nothing like the hardcore/extreme matches they could be.

Therefore it would mean it's being done twice a year. And in some way or another you could slightly regard the fact that we saw a no holds barred Iron Man Match at Breaking Point.

No holds barred match in the PGWWE is nothing short of an ironic joke!!

So yes it is being performed on a yearly basic. We've seen an extreme rules based Pay Per View ever since One Night Stand.

Just because the PGWWE names a PPV "extreme" that doesn't make it so!!
There is nothing extreme about PGWWE nor was there anything "extreme" during the last "extreme rules" PPV.

I understand you don't like the idea of this PPV, fair dues, I do like the sound of it and I will be buying it, so it has worked in as much as it will be the first TNA PPV I have ever purchased.

 

[hArdyPUNKmArk]

I used to hate Madden's columns because he seems like such an arrogant bitter wrestling fan who seems to think he's the only one that's right when it comes to wrestling. I slowly started to see that his columns are actually quite good and though very biased hold a lot of truth.

This recent article regarding the ECW angle is 100% correct in my opinion. I think this is probably the most stupid thing TNA has ever done but that's for a different thread.

Madden has had a lot of wrestling experience and knowledge and you have to give him some credit for actually knowing alot about what he's talking about. Yeah he can write his opinions in a flaming way but his opinion is very valid and worth reading I think. He may be a tool but he's a tool that knows most of what he's talking about.

If you don't like reading his articles then don't read them.

 

[Ferbian]

Lets finish this sentence....Extreme Rules, and TLC focuses around hardcore wrestling matches but as they are produced by the PGWWE they are nothing like the hardcore/extreme matches they could be.

So what you're saying is you're a part of the large generic fanbase that needs blood to watch a match? Congratulations. You've just failed.

A great hardcore match doesn't need blood. Edge vs Jeff Hardy at Extreme Rules 2009, was that not a great hardcore match? Yes it was. At least I would like to say that. And wow, look at it, NO BLOOD!

But let's assume you're not the kind of fan that wants blood, just to counter the fact that you might want to lash back at me with that. You need more violence in it, but don't need the blood, I dare you to say that there wasn't violence in those Pay Per View matches.

Besides is there a standard I don't know of that says "This can't be a proper hardcore match because ....."? I don't know really, you must seem to know of it.

No holds barred match in the PGWWE is nothing short of an ironic joke!!

Arguable. Obviously you find it to be a joke. I found it to be a pretty good match. There's plenty of possibilities to make a good match without blood, and without the ECW based violence. Let's face it, we're in an different era. People doesn't need blood to watch wrestling anymore. WWE is still kicking TNA around the corners in the ratings. And TNA has blood, WWE doesn't.

Just because the PGWWE names a PPV "extreme" that doesn't make it so!!
There is nothing extreme about PGWWE nor was there anything "extreme" during the last "extreme rules" PPV.

Hardcore wrestling is a form of professional wrestling that eschews traditional concepts of match rules in favor of matches that take place in unusual environments, using foreign objects that are not normally permitted.[1] Although hardcore wrestling is a staple of most wrestling promotions, where they are often used at the climaxes of feuds, some promotions (such as Big Japan Pro Wrestling and Combat Zone Wrestling) specialize in hardcore wrestling, with many matches performed in this manner.

That is what a hardcore wrestling match is described as. Therefore to say that just because it's branded extreme. And featuring hardcore wrestling matches. It's not extreme? Bullshit!

Let's look further into Wikipedia. And please for the love of god don't use the "Wikipedia is there to be edited, so we cannot trust it" because that's a lame argument and you know it.

A derogatory term for this style, garbage wrestling, is attributed to Japanese wrestler Giant Baba who used it originally to describe a style of wrestling which required little wrestling athletic ability and often involved no wrestling at all, which is rather common in much of hardcore wrestling.

See? Garbage wrestling. So in reality, it's an awful thing. The fact that TNA wants to focus on a hardcore wrestling Pay Per View for the sake of getting a few fans here and there is, I've said it, laughable.

I'll say it again, Mark Madden hit the nail on the head.

I understand you don't like the idea of this PPV, fair dues, I do like the sound of it and I will be buying it, so it has worked in as much as it will be the first TNA PPV I have ever purchased.

I don't say I don't like the idea of the Pay Per View. I'm all for the fact that they want to go out there and wrestle hardcore matches. I'm just saying all in all there won't be too much shine in it. The fact that they're older, their bodies have been broken down. And to go out there and try to perform what they performed 10 years ago? That's not gonna work in a proper outcome. And even you know that.

And again, the hardcore ECW fans that will appear for this. They will be much worse than the TNA fans. The TNA fans has yet to riot because they didn't like something. The ECW fans most likely will.

 

[Star-ratz]

So what you're saying is you're a part of the large generic fanbase that needs blood to watch a match? Congratulations. You've just failed.

A great hardcore match doesn't need blood. Edge vs Jeff Hardy at Extreme Rules 2009, was that not a great hardcore match? Yes it was. At least I would like to say that. And wow, look at it, NO BLOOD!

But let's assume you're not the kind of fan that wants blood, just to counter the fact that you might want to lash back at me with that. You need more violence in it, but don't need the blood, I dare you to say that there wasn't violence in those Pay Per View matches.

Besides is there a standard I don't know of that says "This can't be a proper hardcore match because ....."? I don't know really, you must seem to know of it.

Who the fuck said anything about blood?? And yes there is a standard that I have where I can look at a match and say "thats not hardcore" there has to be a certain level of violence and it has to give the viewer the feeling that anything could happen, which is missing in the sanatised PGWWE universe!!

Arguable. Obviously you find it to be a joke. I found it to be a pretty good match. There's plenty of possibilities to make a good match without blood, and without the ECW based violence. Let's face it, we're in an different era. People doesn't need blood to watch wrestling anymore. WWE is still kicking TNA around the corners in the ratings. And TNA has blood, WWE doesn't.

Well yes it is a joke, they should rename the No Holds Barred match to "the no holds barred as long as the hold is on the PGWWE's list of approved holds that won't upset all the little kiddies or their parents" just ask Bryan Danielson about that!!! And again with the blood, no one mentioned blood except you, and ratings, well we all know that WWE has higher ratings, but even they are a fraction of what the ratings were during the wrestling heyday...the attitude era. But you must remember that just because something is popular that does NOT mean it is good. And if you think popular equals quality then there is no use discussing anything else with you.

Let's look further into Wikipedia. And please for the love of god don't use the "Wikipedia is there to be edited, so we cannot trust it" because that's a lame argument and you know it.

So you trust everything you read on wikipedia, or just when it suits you??

See? Garbage wrestling. So in reality, it's an awful thing. The fact that TNA wants to focus on a hardcore wrestling Pay Per View for the sake of getting a few fans here and there is, I've said it, laughable.

So some call hardcore wrestling garbage...and?? what is your point?? It appeals to some people and some people don't like hardcore, and just because someone somewhere branded it "garbage" I'm supposed to give a fuck?? And TNA doing a hardcore show to get people to watch it, well isn't that kinda the point?? They are doing something on TV that you cannot find in other promotions, you can wibble on about PGWWE putting on hardcore matches, but you must know in your heart of hearts that the PGWWE haven't done anything remotley hardcore in years!!! And if you think that the PGWWE have put on decent hardcore matches then, if I were you I wouldn't watch Hardcore Justice because you wouldn't be able to handle it!!

I don't say I don't like the idea of the Pay Per View. I'm all for the fact that they want to go out there and wrestle hardcore matches. I'm just saying all in all there won't be too much shine in it. The fact that they're older, their bodies have been broken down. And to go out there and try to perform what they performed 10 years ago? That's not gonna work in a proper outcome. And even you know that.

No I don't know that...after the PPV I will know if it was a success or not, and that's how I will judge this PPV, on how the show is, I won't write it off before the opening bell has sounded just because some twat writes a column and tells me it's going to be shite. And while the guys maybe a bit older than they once were I'm 100% certain that they will give everything they can to make this PPV the best they possibly can and for that they earn my respect!!
But age shouldn't come into the argument, I mean who is the champ over in PGWWEland...why it's Kane (43) and the ages of the former ECW guys that we know are going to be at Hardcore Justice, Devon (37) Stevie Richards (38) Rhino (34) Raven (45) Brother Ray (39) Tommy Dreamer (38) Mick Foley (45) RVD (39) So most are younger than Kane and a couple just a tad older, so we should be getting on PGWWE's case because they have a broken down old man as champion??

 

[CJ The Pirate]

PGWWEland? Seriously? You feel the need to point it out. Like it makes you cool. You made up a cool little nickname? All by yourself or did you just steal it from someone else who can't formulate a decent arguement. Just like the brick brained bully on the school playground, rather than actually making your case you just point out the weakness. Using that nickname over and over again until your target breaks.

But it isn't going to break. For every one guy like you who complains and whines and moans about the watered down product the WWE (That's their name still) the WWE just counters that with 3 televised shows a week and more live events infront of hundreds of thousands of people week in, week out.

Because this watered down PGWWEland is a MASSIVE success. And Total Non-Stop Action is dying in the water. And that is what Madden is saying. That's what Ferbian is saying. And that's what I'm saying.

And what you're actually saying through all the petty childishness like the poor little nicknames and the swearing, only included simply because you can't handle a true debate and possibly because you're about 15 and... hey, swearing is cool. And if you aren't 15 then seriously think hard about changing your life because you are acting like it!

The problem I have with your posts aren't that you're a TNA fan. It's more that you are just knocking WWE and whoever supports WWE without backing it up. Give me instances. Watch a couple of WWE hardcore matches in the past few years and tell me what was wrong with them. What is the level of violence you want?

You knock the concept of a no-holds barred match in the WWE. You claim it can't be No Holds Barred because WWE have bans on certain moves. Wrestling, no matter if it is billed as Hardcore, is still worked. Should a real No Holds Barred match just be an all out fight? Watch MMA. By the way. Bryan Danielson was released due to something that happened outside of a sanctioned match. I don't know what you want me to ask him about NHB matches for.

When Giant Baba said that Hardcore wrestling is 'Garbage' wrestling, he meant it that the performers weren't as skilled as actual wrestlers which I have to agree with. 9/10 times, hardcore guys are there because they aren't good at the technical side of things. There is no true story to a C4 barbed wire rope match. It's just carnage waiting to make more carnage. That was what he meant. Take one of wrestlings greats and put him next to one of Hardcore's legends. Ric Flair equal to Terry Funk? I don't think so. Maybe in fan base. Not in talent.

And as for your final point about the wrestlers ages... did you not realise what you were typing? You mentioned one guy from the WWE. Yeah, he's 43 but he's been wrestling at a top level consistantly for over 10 years. What has Van Dam, Raven, Richards, Dreamer and Rhino been up to? They won't be as crisp as Kane can be and even if that isn't enough for you, WWE expect Kane to get through one match a night. The rest of the card is filled with Kingston, Rhodes, Ziggler, The Miz, Cena, Orton, Swagger and so on. The card is packed with youth in WWE with the experience just sneaking in every now and then. TNA is pinning all of their hopes on a PPV featuring a card full of rusty old memories.

Like Madden said. It'll work for a month or two when the old ECW fans rear their head. They love the hardcore. But when the Hardcore reunion finishes are they gonna stick around. No. And then TNA have gotten no further than they were before.

 

[Ferbian]

Who the fuck said anything about blood?? And yes there is a standard that I have where I can look at a match and say "thats not hardcore" there has to be a certain level of violence and it has to give the viewer the feeling that anything could happen, which is missing in the sanatised PGWWE universe!!

And that's just awful. Why does everybody insist "It's not hardcore, there's no blood". Do you truly feel that every damn fight that involves weapons needs blood? HA!

A hardcore wrestling match can just as well circulate around normal wrestling with weapons. You know Shawn Michaels vs Undertaker Wrestlemania 26 was by stipulation a hardcore match right?

Who's saying nothing gives the impression of "anything is possible" just because there's no blood and sickening violence? That strikes me as very odd. Because I sure as hell was surprised when I saw Shawn Michaels getting pinned at two consecutive Wrestlemania matches. I was surprised to see CM Punk cashing in his Money in the Bank against Jeff Hardy. To turn to TNA, I was surprised to see what a great promo Jay Lethal could cut with Ric Flair. I was surprised to see that they booked A.J Styles to win the TNA world heavyweight championship back in 2009 by pinning Kurt Angle.

All of this are surprise elements that keeps you on the edge of your seat if you suspend the beliefs that somebody needs to loose a fucking gallon of blood for you to be entertained. Or that some sick spot needs to be performed in a regular match for it to be worthy of chanting "THIS IS AWESOME"

Well yes it is a joke, they should rename the No Holds Barred match to "the no holds barred as long as the hold is on the PGWWE's list of approved holds that won't upset all the little kiddies or their parents" just ask Bryan Danielson about that!!! And again with the blood, no one mentioned blood except you, and ratings, well we all know that WWE has higher ratings, but even they are a fraction of what the ratings were during the wrestling heyday...the attitude era. But you must remember that just because something is popular that does NOT mean it is good. And if you think popular equals quality then there is no use discussing anything else with you.

That's ridiculous. The No Holds Barred match simply invites for hardcore wrestling to take place. There's nobody saying it's needed. I'm thankful WWE didn't have Shawn and Undertaker perform hardcore wrestling at Wrestlemania 26. Because in the end, it was a much better match without it. The fact that we weren't supposed to be hoping for a disqualification or a count-out just made it much better.

Bryan Danielson fucked up. That's all there is to that. He made a mistake, he's paying for it, and it's completely understandable looking at the situations WWE had to deal with through Benoit.


You talk about how the ratings were bigger in the Attitude Era. Try to realize that it might not have been due to the hardcore wrestling base and the blood all over. But perhaps because of the stars in the era, The Rock and Stone Cold could've made those ratings with or without the blood.

TNA is producing the kind of product that the Attitude Era was for the most of it. Blood, shock value, cursing and all that shit. Chris Jericho has already commented on the Attitude Era calling it garbage. And in the end of the day, I agree. It was good because of the stars, not the product.

So you trust everything you read on wikipedia, or just when it suits you??

From time to time when the answer is obvious I choose to believe Wikipedia yes. And those quotes I have made points to the obvious - Hardcore wrestling is referred to as garbage wrestling, and it is allowing for weapons to be used. But nowhere does it state that you have to use these weapons.

So some call hardcore wrestling garbage...and?? what is your point?? It appeals to some people and some people don't like hardcore, and just because someone somewhere branded it "garbage" I'm supposed to give a fuck?? And TNA doing a hardcore show to get people to watch it, well isn't that kinda the point?? They are doing something on TV that you cannot find in other promotions, you can wibble on about PGWWE putting on hardcore matches, but you must know in your heart of hearts that the PGWWE haven't done anything remotley hardcore in years!!! And if you think that the PGWWE have put on decent hardcore matches then, if I were you I wouldn't watch Hardcore Justice because you wouldn't be able to handle it!!

My point is that in the end of the day we don't need hardcore wrestling to have a good product. Some may argue with this, but I find that to be ridiculous that someone needs to have blood, violence and weapons to enjoy a product. I've addressed this a lot in this thread already.

And I've already said that I'm happy for what TNA is trying to do. I'm not a TNA hater, but in the end, the product won't be as good as it was back in the 90's from these hardcore "legends". Because they're older, their bodies have taken quite a toll for all this wrestling, especially hardcore wrestling. To expect that they will be able to perform like in the 90's where they became idols of the hardcore wrestling business is laughable. And the ECW fans will not be in the best of moods if they don't get what they were expecting.

You think I wouldn't be able to handle watching Hardcore Justice? Ha. I could handle it perfectly fine. I'm not a faint of heart person. I would gladly watch it, and enjoy it. But that doesn't make it any less of an awful thing to give the fans a product that consists of late 30's - 40's year old wrestlers with broken down bodies slamming each other to break it down a bit more.

Terry Funk is a great example of the toll ECW is putting on people's bodies, as well as wrestling in general. Ric Flair's forehead is a great example to what blood does to your body, because they don't get busted open the hard way for the most of times, they blade.

No I don't know that...after the PPV I will know if it was a success or not, and that's how I will judge this PPV, on how the show is, I won't write it off before the opening bell has sounded just because some twat writes a column and tells me it's going to be shite. And while the guys maybe a bit older than they once were I'm 100% certain that they will give everything they can to make this PPV the best they possibly can and for that they earn my respect!!

I'm not saying whether you know it already or not that the Pay Per View will be a success. I'm saying that you as well as I know that if the ECW hardcore fans doesn't get what they wanna see, they will riot. I'm expecting you have watched the video of ECW booing John Cena. Or ever watched the insane hate the WWF guys during the ECW - WWF invasion angle when ECW was still in business.

Mark Madden has a point, it won't be like the 90's, and the 90's is what the fans would most likely be expecting. At least the pro fans. And therefore those fans will look at it as shit.

And sure don't get me wrong I know very well they'll put in 100% of their remaining abilities to make this show great. But the fact that their bodies have taken a toll ever since the original ECW shows that there won't be much of a product like the 90's. There were barely any of the original ECW guys that we're presented with at TNA that wrestled at 2005. The same goes for 2006.

One Night Stand consisted mostly of singles matches with no real limits. But those that didn't go to the point where the singles matches turned to hardcore matches, were still good. Guerrero vs Benoit ?

But age shouldn't come into the argument, I mean who is the champ over in PGWWEland...why it's Kane (43) and the ages of the former ECW guys that we know are going to be at Hardcore Justice, Devon (37) Stevie Richards (38) Rhino (34) Raven (45) Brother Ray (39) Tommy Dreamer (38) Mick Foley (45) RVD (39) So most are younger than Kane and a couple just a tad older, so we should be getting on PGWWE's case because they have a broken down old man as champion??

Kane doesn't wrestle hardcore matches. His body has taken a toll yes. But it's obvious he still can put on a great match, these guys that you present to us are guys who have made a living off being bashed in the heads. Kane worked a perfectly fine environment for the most of his career. The ECW guys did not.

Also Kane is but one example. Look at the rest of the roster. Sure we got Triple H, who's still able to perform quite well, then we got Undertaker as the only 3 people that are actually older than 40. But the remainder of the roster are below that age. And going strong still.

Do you honestly know whether the ECW guys will be able to go strong? Because the majority of those they will probably bring in, haven't made it on the public scene for years. Sabu hasn't wrestled for a mainstream promotion for years, but the fans wanna see him. Tommy Dreamer has wrestled yes but he wasn't great. Mick Foley has wrestled, but he was never great. Do I need to go on?

 

[bigbadwolf2010]

i love reading his articles such an incredible, intelligent, and inspiring mind.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

In this particular article, I think Mark Madden is spot on. I know that he's brash, something of an assole and blunt as a sledgehammer but he also happen sto be right in this particular instance.

In all honesty, the people that are going to care about this ppv first and foremost are long time, extremely hardcore ECW fans that have an overly inflated recollection of what ECW actually was. TNA talent is going to be pushed aside because Dixie Carter has more faith in an ECW reunion ppv than she does in her own brand and if that doesn't give you any idea as to what the state of TNA is, then you must be blind.

As I've said in other threads, TNA is a wrestling company that does not have its own identity. It's allowed itself to become defined by nostalgia and this ppv that will contain wrestlers that are broken down, irrelevant or both isn't going to fix the obvious problems within TNA.