MAN FUCK JOHN CENA

[Coco]

Okay. So you're saying you take Triple H's best years away and Cena is better.

Sorry, let me explain that one.

When you divide their careers into an awesome-to-crap ratio, Cena wins in a walk. Cena's ability to dish out quality matches is more sustainable and consistent than Triple H's, despite Triple H having been in some of the better matches in the history of the company.

If you don't buy that, I can easily jump to whatever rationalization pops into my head next. Let me know.

Hell Triple H was even a better draw.

Because he was Rock and Austin's number one supporting character.

 

[Dexter]

Find me one Cena match as good as Triple H vs. The Rock, 2/3 Falls from Fully Loaded 1998.

Goddamn that was a good match.

 

[X]

Sorry, let me explain that one.

When you divide their careers into an awesome-to-crap ratio, Cena wins in a walk. Cena's ability to dish out quality matches is more sustainable and consistent than Triple H's, despite Triple H having been in some of the better matches in the history of the company.

If you don't buy that, I can easily jump to whatever rationalization pops into my head next. Let me know.

Meh, frankly there are very few Cena matches that impress me. Most of them happened years ago. I'd say their careers have gone in a similar direction; injuries have made both sub-par in the ring in their present form. Cena can work, but rarely ever does.

Because he was Rock and Austin's number one supporting character.

Heels draw. People wanted to see the Rock or Austin yeah, but they also really wanted to see Triple H get the living shit kicked out of him. His heel work in 2000 is practically unparalleled in this business.

Goddamn that was a good match.

Fuck yes it was. Those two had so many great encounters, but that's probably my favorite. Backlash & Judgment Day '00 are close though.

 

[Slyfox696]

Meh, frankly there are very few Cena matches that impress me. Most of them happened years ago. I'd say their careers have gone in a similar direction; injuries have made both sub-par in the ring in their present form. Cena can work, but rarely ever does.

Whatever xfear. If Cena was working in some two bit indy wrestling company doing the exact same thing he is now, you and all the other indy smarks would be sucking his nuts.

 

[Slyfox696]

Heels draw.

No they don't. Faces draw, heels give the faces the ability to draw.

But heels don't draw.

 

[klunderbunker]

What about when a heel has so much heat that people will pay to possibly see them lose, such as Flair in the mid to late 80s? Actually that's about the only one instance I can think of that this could work for.

 

[Slyfox696]

What about when a heel has so much heat that people will pay to possibly see them lose?

I can only think of one time that has ever happened, and that was back in the 90s with Hollywood Hogan. And even then, the heel was helping the face draw (Luger, Sting, Goldberg).

 

[Dexter]

What's so great about the Cena debate is how well it adheres to the greater internet theory of "hate what everyone else loves, love what everyone else hates. it makes you look smarter than everyone else."

Case and point, the years that are being put forth as Cena's best are the years that were the height of the "Cena SUX" sentiment among the IWC. Yet now, when injuries have supposedly slowed him down and he's not as good as he used to be, this is the height of the "I <3 Cena" sentiment among the IWC.

Someone could do a doctoral dissertation on this shit for a sociology degree.

 

[Slyfox696]

What's so great about the Cena debate is how well it adheres to the greater internet theory of "hate what everyone else loves, love what everyone else hates. it makes you look smarter than everyone else."

Case and point, the years that are being put forth as Cena's best are the years that were the height of the "Cena SUX" sentiment among the IWC. Yet now, when injuries have supposedly slowed him down and he's not as good as he used to be, this is the height of the "I <3 Cena" sentiment among the IWC.

Someone could do a doctoral dissertation on this shit for a sociology degree.

To be fair, I don't fit under this category at all.

 

[klunderbunker]

I can only think of one time that has ever happened, and that was back in the 90s with Hollywood Hogan. And even then, the heel was helping the face draw (Luger, Sting, Goldberg).

That's another that I hadn't thought of. Yes, with Sting and Goldberg and Luger to an extent (since it was really just a Nitro and a throwaway PPV).

 

[Coco]

What's so great about the Cena debate is how well it adheres to the greater internet theory of "hate what everyone else loves, love what everyone else hates. it makes you look smarter than everyone else."

Case and point, the years that are being put forth as Cena's best are the years that were the height of the "Cena SUX" sentiment among the IWC. Yet now, when injuries have supposedly slowed him down and he's not as good as he used to be, this is the height of the "I <3 Cena" sentiment among the IWC.

Someone could do a doctoral dissertation on this shit for a sociology degree.

Suck my cock, I was backing Cena in '06.

 

[Dexter]

To be fair, I don't fit under this category at all.

I don't know if anyone in this thread does.

 

[Slyfox696]

That's another that I hadn't thought of. Yes, with Sting and Goldberg and Luger to an extent (since it was really just a Nitro and a throwaway PPV).

I would argue that's the only one. Flair in the 80s didn't have the mega heat that drew people more than the face did. I mean, Dusty Rhodes, Ricky Steamboat, etc. were all mega faces in their parts of the country...and hell, many times Flair wasn't even the hated worker in the match. You can go back and see many times where heel Flair was being cheered.

I would argue Hollywood Hogan in the mid 90s is about the only instance where you can say a heel was so hot he was a mega draw.

 

[X]

Whatever xfear. If Cena was working in some two bit indy wrestling company doing the exact same thing he is now, you and all the other indy smarks would be sucking his nuts.

Well that's just ridiculous, like everything you think and say about indy wrestling. If Cena were doing the same thing he is now in an indy, I'd still be enjoying him just as little. His wrestling style isn't even comparable to that used by companies like ROH, so if he were doing what he is now in a promotion like that, no Sly, I wouldn't be on his nuts. I'd think he sucks even more probably.

No they don't. Faces draw, heels give the faces the ability to draw.

But heels don't draw.

That's horseshit. Heels don't draw? Okay Sly, whatever you say. Nobody ever payed to see Ric Flair or Triple H get their ass kicked.

 

[Dexter]

I used to pay to see Stone Cold lose back in the Attitude Era. Does that count?

 

[Slyfox696]

Well that's just ridiculous, like everything you think and say about indy wrestling. If Cena were doing the same thing he is now in an indy, I'd still be enjoying him just as little. His wrestling style isn't even comparable to that used by companies like ROH, so if he were doing what he is now in a promotion like that, no Sly, I wouldn't be on his nuts. I'd think he sucks even more probably.

Bullshit. Why the fuck do you sing the praises of those indy pissant wrestlers, and then refuse Cena's greatness? How the fuck does that even make sense? What the fuck do those guys do that is even half as good as what Cena does?

And if you say "they do more moves", so help me God, I will ban your fucking ass.



Okay, not really, but still.

That's horseshit. Heels don't draw? Okay Sly, whatever you say. Nobody ever payed to see Ric Flair or Triple H get their ass kicked.

No, they paid to see Rhodes, Austin and Rock do the ass kicking.

If people were paying to see Triple H get his ass kicked, how come when Rock and Austin left full-time, the WWE went in the tank, despite Triple H still being around?

 

[klunderbunker]

I would argue that's the only one. Flair in the 80s didn't have the mega heat that drew people more than the face did. I mean, Dusty Rhodes, Ricky Steamboat, etc. were all mega faces in their parts of the country...and hell, many times Flair wasn't even the hated worker in the match. You can go back and see many times where heel Flair was being cheered.

I would argue Hollywood Hogan in the mid 90s is about the only instance where you can say a heel was so hot he was a mega draw.

Completely agree with Hogan. He definitely was the driving force behind the PPVs as fans kept waiting to see if someone could dethrone him. Why am I explaining this to you?

Flair.....not so sure. I could see it going either way. Yes it's true he was often cheered, but he was still playing the heel role. The fans would still be paying to see the heel then, right?

 

[Slyfox696]

Flair.....not so sure. I could see it going either way. Yes it's true he was often cheered, but he was still playing the heel role. The fans would still be paying to see the heel then, right?

Not if they were paying to see the top local face to on Flair in a match. Which was quite often the case. Flair would travel the territories, working matches against the top face in the area.

 

[klunderbunker]

Yeah I know that. He had a match with Lawler in Memphis where that was exactly the case. I'm talking about once JCP took over and they were mainly in the Carolinas.

 

[X]

Bullshit. Why the fuck do you sing the praises of those indy pissant wrestlers, and then refuse Cena's greatness? How the fuck does that even make sense? What the fuck do those guys do that is even half as good as what Cena does?

Where was I refusing Cena's "greatness"? I claimed he's one of the best in the WWE today, the only thing I've said in this thread is that there are several better in-ring workers than Cena in the WWE right now. Which there are.

And if you say "they do more moves", so help me God, I will ban your fucking ass.

When have I ever said that? Ever?

No, they paid to see Rhodes, Austin and Rock do the ass kicking.

If people were paying to see Triple H get his ass kicked, how come when Rock and Austin left full-time, the WWE went in the tank, despite Triple H still being around?

I'm sorry but as much as the fans loved The Rock or Mick Foley, they also really REALLY wanted to see Triple H lose. We're not going to deny how good of a heel Triple H was are we?

 

[Dexter]

Here... to solve this face/heel draw debate.

HHH, 2000. I agree with X, amazing heel work. Probably the best I've personally ever witnessed. So here's the litmus test...

Would people have paid to watch a PPV which was headlined by Jimmy Wang Yang (face) vs HHH (heel)?

 

[Slyfox696]

Where was I refusing Cena's "greatness"? I claimed he's one of the best in the WWE today, the only thing I've said in this thread is that there are several better in-ring workers than Cena in the WWE right now. Which there are.

Which is false. You have also said he is overrated, which is false as well. Thus refusing his greatness.

When have I ever said that? Ever?

That was more for the joke.

But, no, really, I'd love to hear how those ROH workers are better than Cena.

I'm sorry but as much as the fans loved The Rock or Mick Foley, they also really REALLY wanted to see Triple H lose. We're not going to deny how good of a heel Triple H was are we?

You never answered my question.

"If people were paying to see Triple H get his ass kicked, how come when Rock and Austin left full-time, the WWE went in the tank, despite Triple H still being around?"

 

[klunderbunker]

As for the whole Cena thing: I've never been a big fan or a big detractor of his. He's had matches I've liked and matches I've turned off. The guy is the undisputed top draw in the world right now and while he's not the best I've ever seen, he's not bad. I'd say he's desperately in need of a tweak (not a full change) to his gimmick and surroundings, but that's just me. if not, I could see him eventually hitting what happened to Hogan in 95-96. Now granted if that leads to another time like late 96/97, I'd be fine with it.

 

[Dexter]

"If people were paying to see Triple H get his ass kicked, how come when Rock and Austin left full-time, the WWE went in the tank, despite Triple H still being around?"

Didn't he turn face around that time?

 

[Slyfox696]

Would people have paid to watch a PPV which was headlined by Jimmy Wang Yang (face) vs HHH (heel)?

They didn't. When Austin and Rock left from their full-time roles, the company started its downward spiral.