It Is Completely Impossible To Be A Face In WWE

[Trill Co$by]

"Randy Orton's become Super Orton since turning face." "Sheamus has become a new Cena since turning face." "CM Punk has become boring since turning face."

Like seriously, it is impossible for anybody to be a face in WWE today. Consider the fact that all of the heels turned faces are the exact same as their heel counterpart, and the people who once cheered them are now booing them. And for what? Because they win matches? What the fuck is wrong with a face winning matches?

What's the difference between cheering someone who's heel and cheering that same person when they turn face? In 2009 when Orton was WWE champion with Legacy, the entire IWC was on this big band wagon about how great he was. He turns face and everyone who thinks that just because they can read dirtsheet that makes them "in the business" starts blasting him and calling him Super Orton. What the hell is a "Super Orton" anyways? I've seen Orton lose most of his matches since turning face...

CM Punk busts an amazing promo in June of last year. In the course of that event, he becomes a face. For a while, fans still liked CM Punk, but right around Hell in a Cell, fans started to call CM Punk boring and played out. What the hell is so boring about him? He's doing the same shit he's been doing since his infamous promo. He's the same guy, the guy that the IWC wanted. So why hate on something that WWE hand delivers to you perfectly?

Sheamus gets a face turn, after fans constantly cheer him, and again they turn on him. And for what? Because he won the Royal Rumble over Jericho, who easily regained the Punk v. Jericho match anyway?

What's the point in cheering for a heel if you're going to boo them as a face? That's kind of ass backwards don't you think?

 

[I Heart Cena]

Relax. God, take a pill. Look, since the Attitude Era was such a hard act to follow, fans aren't going to be satisfied as they were during the glory days.

It's not that these wrestlers are face, it's that they don't have the talent that the AE guys had. So people get bored. The wrestlers' faceness has nothing to do with it, except Cena who overdoes his faceness.

If you date an amazing perfect 10, then she dumps you, it will be very hard for you to find happiness again. That's what's happening wrestling-wise. Don't be mad, bra. U mad?

Just let everyone vent. It's what the internet is for.

 

[BaconBits]

It's not impossible to be face. I hear the faces get cheered weekly, except for Cena, who gets a mixed bag depending on the situation.

It's impossible to be a face to people who frequent forums, however, because IWC types tend to gravitate towards heels for some reason. It's just the eay it seems to be.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

It's a no brainer that a guy who turns face is going to win a lot and that too by making a babyface comeback in most of his matches. Everyone, right from Hulk Hogan to Steve Austin to John Cena has done that. But what has made the internet fans look past that on most occasions is the fact that the superstar has been "entertaining" or at least entertaining to the IWC which amounts to the wrestler in question swearing a lot or beating up people violently.

What has changed these days, due to a combination of the PG era and the fact that the internet fan has seen most of these "extreme" antics before, is that he has become much more difficult to please. To get the internet fan to cheer for the babyface, the babyface would have to conform to the demands of the internet fan. That would involve him using lots of submission moves and break the fourth wall in every second promo of his. Now you decide whether that would be good for the business or not.

 

[AwesomeRko]

I think the problem is how WWE books top faces, characters are more tolerable and likeable when they seem vulnerable. The whole idea that when somebody turns face they are suddenly indestructable and incapable of losing clean just kind of frustrates me. I know ultimately good usually has to triumph over evil but you can at least let the heel win some sort of small, clean victory to add at least a degree of unpredictability.

The whole 'Super' thing hasalways exsited to an extent SCSA in the Attitude era, Goldberg but I fell its gotten worse recently with ever main-event face superstar pretty much seeiming unbeatable. Part of the reason why faces were more appealling back in the attitude era, besides the discrepancy in talent was that they had a vulnerable aspect guys like the Rock, Mick Foley and Y2J all did lose and lose clean far more regularly than the top faces of today. I think thats the problem.

 

[metalbran88]

My opnions of Orton, Punk, and Sheamus haven't changed a bit since they turned face...I love them. They are awesome, Orton has no problem losing, he put over Henry how many times? Punk has stopped pandering like he did when he turned face which is good he hasn't got bland because he speaks the truth and adds realism. Sheamus is just badass. Basically the same character when he was heel except now he isn't a coward.

 

[WolfNyte]

It is not so hard being a face because all you have to do is tell the 5% of fans that are on the IWC to well...scratch your balls and go eat some bagel bites.

The IWC....Idiots With Computers....Thank you Jerico for that line.....is never happy. They just like to bitch and moan. Let me list the common ICW stuff.

1. Push ______ Push him he needs to be pushed they are burrying him. Ok why the hell are they pushing him he sucks on the mic and has no tallent.

2. He needs to turn he is getting stale. Oh he turned now? guess I have to throw all the pillowcases and actions figures in the basement now.

3. The attitude era was the greatest era ever!! Why was it? Ummm cause it was the greatest and you just showed you know nothing.

4. The Attitude era had the best tallent. what about steamboat, Snuka, Piper, Gorgeous George, Melenko? Ummmmm The Rock was better!! Why? ummm KNOW YOUR ROLE is trending.

Ok so basically my point is the IWC is full of basically follow the crowd, live in mommies basement, not have a job, not have a girlfirend and no a cardboard cut out of a female wrestler doesnt count, who never PAY for a PPV they get it free on a streaming site or go to an event.

What counts is the people in the seats and are they entertained. Not the IWC who flips on the drop of a feather. Crowd...aka the 95% of people who are cheering for the show and enjoying the show at home without analyzing if Kelly Kelly has a bikini wax this week. But wou love the carnival atmosphere cause thats where it all started Carnivals.

Contrary to the IWC belief VM knows what he is doing and he does it well.

So no its not impossible to be a face...its impossible for most of the IWC to get their heads out of their asses.

As far as the "SUPER" character....Bruno Sanmartino held the belt for how long?? First time 2803 Days second time 1237 days do that math...11 years where no one could beat him for the belt.

 

[RD_21]

I think the problem is the way WWE does it and how they will push someone down your throat until you like it (Orton before he was so over was pushed so hard down our throat).

Like some people mention, a face can lose clean. Also the heel doesn't need to dominate all match just to have the face make his super comeback. The notion that Vince think fans only wants a face to do 5 move (stop lying to yourself we al know Cena can do more than 5 moves, he may be lazy accepting his role without wanting to do more, but he knows how to wrestle) because otherwise the fans are lost.

Newsflash Vince, a face can do 100 moves. Have him do 5 moves for his comeback, but he can do more, IF the heel doesn't lead the dance all match long. Just like in every tag match you KNOW there will always be a hot tag. And everytime the ref is looking away you know the heel will cheat.

The problem is that those things work well with people who don't know about wrestling that much. When I was younger I was pissed off at the ref for looking away and not seeing what was happenning. Now I know he's playing his part.

I know I'm hard to follow because I'm having the debate inside my head at the same time I'm typing it, but it's true that we may be harder to please, but it's still working with a portion of the audience, I just think the WWE need to reinvent themselvesi nstead of sticking to the Hogan's formula hoping it will work eventually.

Just like Cena makes me cringe everytime he says people want me to change but I won't because that's who I am... I just want to punch him in the face when he says that, but his loyal fans like that about him, same thing with Vince's old ways of doing business, a portion likes it even if the buyrate and ratings are down the toilet.

It is not so hard being a face because all you have to do is tell the 5% of fans that are on the IWC to well...scratch your balls and go eat some bagel bites.

The IWC....Idiots With Computers....Thank you Jerico for that line.....is never happy. They just like to bitch and moan. Let me list the common ICW stuff.

1. Push ______ Push him he needs to be pushed they are burrying him. Ok why the hell are they pushing him he sucks on the mic and has no tallent.

2. He needs to turn he is getting stale. Oh he turned now? guess I have to throw all the pillowcases and actions figures in the basement now.

3. The attitude era was the greatest era ever!! Why was it? Ummm cause it was the greatest and you just showed you know nothing.

4. The Attitude era had the best tallent. what about steamboat, Snuka, Piper, Gorgeous George, Melenko? Ummmmm The Rock was better!! Why? ummm KNOW YOUR ROLE is trending.

Ok so basically my point is the IWC is full of basically follow the crowd, live in mommies basement, not have a job, not have a girlfirend and no a cardboard cut out of a female wrestler doesnt count, who never PAY for a PPV they get it free on a streaming site or go to an event.

What counts is the people in the seats and are they entertained. Not the IWC who flips on the drop of a feather. Crowd...aka the 95% of people who are cheering for the show and enjoying the show at home without analyzing if Kelly Kelly has a bikini wax this week. But wou love the carnival atmosphere cause thats where it all started Carnivals.

Contrary to the IWC belief VM knows what he is doing and he does it well.

So no its not impossible to be a face...its impossible for most of the IWC to get their heads out of their asses.

And you are making the mistake most people do when talking about the IWC.

The person who said PUSH X, X NEEDS A PUSH, may not be the same one who will later say X SUCKS, WHY IS HE PUSHED.

The IWC is a "group" not a single person and we all have different opinions and that's why I find it dumb when people foolishly blame the IWC, we are just fans, maybe more knowledgable than the average Joe, but it doesn't mean we all share the same opinion.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Yeah, sure, people like to peddle their bullshit. Don't just assume every post being critical of a face recently turned is just sour grapes though - that's ridiculous.

For example, "Sheamus is shit; he's entirely bland and one dimensional; I routinely struggle to understand why I'm meant to root for him." Justified.

"Cener's terrible. He cuts terrible promos and has never had a good match. "Rise above hate"? So cheesy! More like "Rise above I'm a virgin." I mean, uh-- Whoops." Unjustified. And I might have added a little colour of my own, though "I'm bitter and sex deprived" is often what I read in place of shit like that.

The likes of Punk, Mysterio and Orton routinely undergo unjustified criticism from those that just want to rebel against what WWE wants you to like. You know - fuck the man! Fight the power!

Hey, I love Daniel Bryan! Oh, Daniel Bryan's world champion? Boo - he's so bland! Oh, isn't CM Punk great? What, he's WWE Champion? CM Punk sucks, man - he's just John Cena 2.0!

People are fickle, but you should also learn how to distinguish between a legitimate argument and an illegitimate one. For example, my legitimate children are in line to inherit my vast wealth; my illegitimate children are in an electrified cage in the basement. Let's just pretend that's a metaphor.

 

[Champ1432]

I think the OP is pretty much dead on.

Also, Wolfnyte brought up good points about the fickleness of the IWC in general (not everyone, but in general). I'm not sure I agree with him on what type of person the average member of the IWC is, and I know my Kelly Kelly cutout agrees with me... err, I mean...whoops.

Seriously though, it does seem near impossible to remain a popular face these days, at least with the most of the IWC. As far as the live crowds go, I don't think any of the top faces at the moment get many boos at all except for Cena. Not saying that's justified, just saying.

The other points brought up are pretty much bullseyes, I think. Last summer, you'd be hard pressed to find someone on here saying anything negative about CM Punk. It just so happens he was a heel at that time, too. Granted, he was doing amazing things, worthy of praise, but ever since he turned face and now we're a few months into one of his title reigns, you see the words "stale", "boring", "letdown", and "not as exciting" popping up. Not from everyone, but from what I would say is a significant sample size.

Of course, Cena's heat goes back much further and is well documented, no need to touch on that.

The same thing can be said of Orton though. At the height of his heel run, people loved him, loved the RKOs, loved the punts, loved everything. And he won A LOT. But now when he wins a lot as a face, he's "Super Orton". His face character isn't even that different from his heel character, he's even done punts as a face.

As with most trends, there are probably multiple reasons for all this face-hate. I think the point about the way most top faces are booked is legit. There is a lot of "super" in Cena, Orton, and perhaps even Punk now. I totally understand that faces are going to win a lot, and that's perfectly fine, but the whole "get beat down to have a big comeback" does happen quite a bit these days. Yes, it's been that way since Hogan or before, and it's a way to get a big reaction at the end of a match, and I'm not saying stop using the formula entirely. Maybe just a little variety now and then. Same thing with the point of the heel tag teams and the whole hot tag.

One other big reason though, in my opinion, is just the "cool" factor. It started with Cena when it became cool to boo him. Now it has spread to the position in general of "top face". I'm not saying you shouldn't be free to boo whomever you wish, especially if you legitimately feel that they're lacking as a wrestler or entertainer. But I don't think anyone reasonable will disagree that at least some, if not most, of the heat that the top faces are now getting is because it's cool in the IWC to prefer the heels and denegrate the faces. It's just a big contrarian attitude right now.

Just a quick point, since "attitude" reminded me, for someone to boo people today because of how they compare or don't compare to the AE wrestlers, if that is actually happening, is absurd. The wrestlers can't make this a second AE, they don't have that authority. If you think this era is less entertaining that's fine, but don't doubt that today's stars would be as good or almost as good at "attitude" style wrestling if given the chance.

All in all, as I've said multiple times, sometimes it's ok to cheer for the good guy.

 

[Cats Pajamas]

You have a lot of diversity on forums of people's preferred wrestlers. That's a good thing, though, or I like to think it is. I like reading the different opinions, seeing what people have to say. Sometimes I think they're just blowing smoke, sometimes I suppose they probably just don't like being told who to root for. Aw well, let them have their opinions I say, I'll watch the crowd reactions to get a better scope on the opinions of the masses. Some crowds have actually been pretty disappointing because they're so quiet.

In the end, though, their opinions only matter so much to me. Someone can tell me that "so and so doesn't do anything for me since their face turn" and I can say to myself, "well, I disagree..." as I close my web browser. I figure the fans who hate on certain wrestlers for no reason will either get over it eventually or turn on the TV and hate every episode. No skin off my ass, right?

No matter what someone tells me, I like Cena, Orton, Sheamus and Kingston matches. You've got a good wrestling mind, OP, I know because I read your posts whenever I see them, so you're as right as anyone. Best regards, wrestling fans.

 

[Mr. Artistic guy]

There tends to be a way in WWE that when you become THAT face, just like Cena did, like Orton did after WM26 and like Sheamus is doing now, you just lose a lot of your range. They don't give you as much mic time, as much character work and evolution. Basically they can make you sort of just bask and stagnate.

They often don't try to supply a reason for that certain face to be cheered, they just expect them to be cheered because it's what the people did last time they were out there. Your whole gimmick becomes hand gestures and winning more matches.

I would really like WWE to open Sheamus up right now, give him more depth. As he is, he's a guy that goes out there and kicks your head off and beats his chest like a Gorilla, which there is nothing wrong with, but he's been that guy for a while now. What they really ought to do is have said face topple, adapt and overcome each time they are faced with a new challenge. Bryan should push Sheamus in a way he's never been pushed before, probably going along the submission route and making claims about how Sheamus couldn't break out if he locked the Labelle Hold on him and then prove it to be true over the coming weeks.

The Wrestlemania blow off will be Sheamus finding a way to break the hold because of developing his abilities to counter Bryan's offence, ya dig?

I'm not saying I'm exactly sold into the criticism of faces that people dish out, but I am saying I can see a basis for it. Don't be afraid to let your top stars develop, to change their style. That sort of thinking got John Cena into the predicament he's in now. He's a talented guy, we all know this. Being a bad in-ring worker is hardly a substantial enough, let alone valid enough criticism of him to suggest why it is people have soured on him so much. A better fit explanation is that John Cena has just been how he is now for far far too long without any major character innovations. You can check if this is true by viewing the crowds reaction to the promo he did on the Raw last week. He changed up his style of talking and the crowd responded to it in a positive way, he got most of the audience from on his back to on his side just by being a bit different but within the realms of who he still is.

That's what I see missing from the guys WWE often pushes as their top faces. Give them a range, a purpose, the ability to change with their surroundings and I'm sure people would have nothing to complain about, not that it would stop them from trying.

 

[Mark Henry's Beard]

A big reason why reactions change is because when major players turn face, they tend to lose many of the qualities that got them over in the first place. Orton, Sheamus, and Punk were all sadistic as heels and now they aren't. From Orton giving Stephanie the hanging DDT and then kissing her while HHH was tied up in the ropes, to Sheamus trying to end careers without mercy, to CM Punk creepily singing "Happy Birthday" to Rey Mysterio's daughter...to see them virtually abandon this aspect of their characters doesn't sit right. Obviously, you can't have faces doing such despicable acts. But my point is that one of the reasons these guys don't get as much love from the IWC as they used to is that their characters aren't the same anymore.

As has been mentioned before, never losing clean ever doesn't help either.

 

[midgensa]

This is a pretty good thread and a pretty good point.

I take it one step further though. It is not just the IWC that hates faces. In the end, the crowd ALWAYS turns on the face. They simply get bored.

Back in the day of Austin and The Rock and the "cool" spit in the face of authority faces it was much easier to keep the crowd on their side for a long time. But, now, faces get bashed or just get little reaction eventually. At least the ones at the top of the card.

People like to sound like they are smarter than everyone else, so they think if they "like the bad guy" and if they "boo the good guy" they are cooler than the person next to them who is spouting "You can't see me!"

The IWC LOOOOOVES to talk about how it is harder to be a heel ... but that is simply not true in today's wrestling climate. To get over as a heel is relatively easy. To be way over as a face is difficult and takes some serious work.

Even "Super Cena" has been getting booed by 30% of the crowd for YEARS. Randy Orton does not get the love from the crowd like the heat he got when he was the top heel. And lets not even get into the full-time face runs of Y2J and HHH that were far inferior to when they were full-time running heels. It is just easier to be a heel.

I think people like Shawn Michaels should be given a lot more credit than they are for being soooooo over as faces for such long periods without actually getting boring or losing crowd interest. It is difficult to do in these fickle times.

 

[midgensa]

A big reason why reactions change is because when major players turn face, they tend to lose many of the qualities that got them over in the first place. Orton, Sheamus, and Punk were all sadistic as heels and now they aren't. From Orton giving Stephanie the hanging DDT and then kissing her while HHH was tied up in the ropes, to Sheamus trying to end careers without mercy, to CM Punk creepily singing "Happy Birthday" to Rey Mysterio's daughter...to see them virtually abandon this aspect of their characters doesn't sit right. Obviously, you can't have faces doing such despicable acts. But my point is that one of the reasons these guys don't get as much love from the IWC as they used to is that their characters aren't the same anymore.

As has been mentioned before, never losing clean ever doesn't help either.

I am not picking on you ... I saw plenty of other mentions of it ... but lets attack this never losing clean thing.

It isn't that faces can't lose clean. That is not the problem. The problem is heels CAN'T win clean. Otherwise, what makes them heel? If a heel wins clean he inevitably earns the respect of the audience at home and on television. The more a heel wins clean, the more the audience turns to like the guy and the more the hand is forced to make him a face.

It is not "Super Cena" or "Super Orton" or "Super Sheamus" it is the fact that heels are cheaters and BAD GUYS. They cheat EVEN IF THEY DON'T HAVE TO. That is the reason the crowd boos them.

Heels can't win clean (at least not on any regular basis). It is just bad for business.

 

[PlayTheGameHHH]

It's funny because everyone is sucking Cody Rhodes' dick right now, but if he ever turns face, wins the WHC and makes it big you will turn on him. The OP is 100% right.

The same guys who would wipe heel Punk's ass after a shit are now calling him boring...it makes no fucking sense.

 

[AwesomeRko]

I am not picking on you ... I saw plenty of other mentions of it ... but lets attack this never losing clean thing.

It isn't that faces can't lose clean. That is not the problem. The problem is heels CAN'T win clean. Otherwise, what makes them heel? If a heel wins clean he inevitably earns the respect of the audience at home and on television. The more a heel wins clean, the more the audience turns to like the guy and the more the hand is forced to make him a face.

It is not "Super Cena" or "Super Orton" or "Super Sheamus" it is the fact that heels are cheaters and BAD GUYS. They cheat EVEN IF THEY DON'T HAVE TO. That is the reason the crowd boos them.

Heels can't win clean (at least not on any regular basis). It is just bad for business.

I get what your saying but at the same time you do get the odd dominant heel character who wins clean regularly Orton, Kane, Sheamus, Umaga and HHH are the first recent examples which spring to mind. I don't think when heels win clean it necessarily has to win the fans respect, depending on how its handled it could make the audience resent and hate the superstar to a greater degree.

I get that you have other categories of heel people like Punk (SES, New Nexus), Miz and Bryan who's character is based around being underhand and cheating. Yet surely the WWE could afford them the odd clean victory over a face even just to mix it up a little and show they are actually accomplished wrestlers. It gets to the point sometimes with the heels always losing, running away and getting generally beat down that you start to think why are these two even having a match, its obvious who the better superstar is.

I'm not saying heels whould win all the time, far from it I acknowledge that vast majority of the time faces are going to go over but the odd clean loss to a heel wouldn't really damage their credibility, might make matches slightly less predictable and might actually portray the heels as in the same league as the good guys.

 

[Best in the World 79]

Not impossible. But very hard to do so.

We are in an age where the internet seems to "rule" wrestling. Everyone seems to know what vince should do because it's what they "think" they want. Then when it happens, they're not satisfied.

It would be unfair to say that everyone who goes to wrestlezone, or is a forum member is in the "IWC" who the fuck even came up with that anyway.

Unless a performer is loved by older males who has watched for a long time..for example(taker, hhh, hbk, austin, rock...etc? for the most part, he can be face or heel and he will get the cheers of those males.

most kids will cheer the faces and boo the heels. same with women. and same with casual fans.

i, myself, boo the following faces... john cena.
i am a punk fan, so i do not boo him.
faces i care nothing about...sheamus. kofi kingston. big show etc
they are boring to me

heels i cheer are... cody rhodes, jericho, ziggler
heels i care nothing for...everyone else heel i didn't mention.

wwe has very few guys who are interesting. there are no fucking storylines for most of the shows. it runs together.

wwe time after time turns to cena and he fails.
that is why taker wrestles once a year. ppl buy mania for him.
wwe survies year to year off mania. that's why they are only doing big stadium manias now. they have to get rock in there. have stone cold apart of the show. have hhh apart of the show.

based of match entertainment and the actual card, wm 27 was the worst of all time IMO. reason it was successful was because of rock.

wwe is in a corner and they have no idea which way to run to.

cena has been carrying them for a while now.

but like any work horse of a running back who carries the ball all the time, his knees will go out eventually. that's a metaphor here.

what does wwe do when EVERYONE GETS TIRED OF CENA. they will turn to orton? punk? that's all they got.

the future does not look real bright for wwe.

the days are gone when you had full time guys like....taker, hhh, hbk, edge, angle, lesnar, guerro, rock, austin, etc

top 3 full time stars in the company now is cena, punk, and orton.


its not looking real good for wwe

 

[ultramattman]

You know, there's nothing at all wrong with a character that gets cheered AND booed. In fact, you should be so lucky. What's better than a one-on-one match with half the crowd cheering one wrestler, and half the crowd cheering the other? Hell, isn't that MORE like the excitement of a real sporting event?

Jericho gets a mix of boos and cheers. Miz gets a mix of boos and cheers. Punk's getting the loudest cheers he'll ever hear right now, but eventually they'll turn into a mix as well.

If modern-day crowds are too smart to just cheer the faces and boo the heels (and they are) that's fine. Even if the reaction is mixed, it's still just cheers and boos. Cheers and boos are the entire purpose of professional wrestling.

 

[midgensa]

I am not picking on you ... I saw plenty of other mentions of it ... but lets attack this never losing clean thing.

It isn't that faces can't lose clean. That is not the problem. The problem is heels CAN'T win clean. Otherwise, what makes them heel? If a heel wins clean he inevitably earns the respect of the audience at home and on television. The more a heel wins clean, the more the audience turns to like the guy and the more the hand is forced to make him a face.

It is not "Super Cena" or "Super Orton" or "Super Sheamus" it is the fact that heels are cheaters and BAD GUYS. They cheat EVEN IF THEY DON'T HAVE TO. That is the reason the crowd boos them.

Heels can't win clean (at least not on any regular basis). It is just bad for business.

I get what your saying but at the same time you do get the odd dominant heel character who wins clean regularly Orton, Kane, Sheamus, Umaga and HHH are the first recent examples which spring to mind. I don't think when heels win clean it necessarily has to win the fans respect, depending on how its handled it could make the audience resent and hate the superstar to a greater degree.

I get that you have other categories of heel people like Punk (SES, New Nexus), Miz and Bryan who's character is based around being underhand and cheating. Yet surely the WWE could afford them the odd clean victory over a face even just to mix it up a little and show they are actually accomplished wrestlers. It gets to the point sometimes with the heels always losing, running away and getting generally beat down that you start to think why are these two even having a match, its obvious who the better superstar is.

I'm not saying heels whould win all the time, far from it I acknowledge that vast majority of the time faces are going to go over but the odd clean loss to a heel wouldn't really damage their credibility, might make matches slightly less predictable and might actually portray the heels as in the same league as the good guys.

But honestly ... they did not win clean really ever when they were facing top faces. Sure, the top heel can win against a non-top face clean. But those guys (Orton, Kane, Sheamus, Umaga and HHH) were not winning matches straight up (in particular Orton with Legacy). Most of their wins were either the face not getting a count because a ref was down or something ... or were in No DQs or whatever so they could be totally heinous to get the win.

There are very very few straight-up clean heel wins because isn't does not sell heel angles.

 

[JaylisJayP]

Is it really that hard to understand? When these guys turn face, their character changes...and in this age, they become so "safe" as characters that they are all pretty boring. Orton has become AWFUL in his run as top face of Smackdown. Cena is Cena. Punk HAS become boring.

You're not cheering the same person...that's a completely ridiculous and ignorant statement. It's a CHARACTER. And when a CHARACTER is turned into something safe, lame, boring...whatever you call it, it changes your outlook on them. For me, personally, has NOTHING to do with whether they win or not.

Not hard to understand.

 

[JaylisJayP]

A big reason why reactions change is because when major players turn face, they tend to lose many of the qualities that got them over in the first place. Orton, Sheamus, and Punk were all sadistic as heels and now they aren't. From Orton giving Stephanie the hanging DDT and then kissing her while HHH was tied up in the ropes, to Sheamus trying to end careers without mercy, to CM Punk creepily singing "Happy Birthday" to Rey Mysterio's daughter...to see them virtually abandon this aspect of their characters doesn't sit right. Obviously, you can't have faces doing such despicable acts. But my point is that one of the reasons these guys don't get as much love from the IWC as they used to is that their characters aren't the same anymore.

As has been mentioned before, never losing clean ever doesn't help either.

Went back and read all the posts...and look at this, someone gets it.

This is entertainment...and if something stops being entertaining, people don't like it as much. Can't put it in any simpler terms than that.

Orton - Can't think of a single interesting thing he's done or angle that's been played out since his mega face turn. His fault? Not at all, doesn't change the fact that he's boring.

Sheamus - Tonight's Smackdown was the first time I've even seen him get a solo ring segment in ages...but then again I don't watch Smackdown much. He said blah blah blah "Bryan is like I used to be" blah blah...this angle has NEVER been done before, wink wink. Boring as hell. Don't forget to smile and laugh off criticism a la Cena there "big White"

Cena - Man the guy tries...and I don't boo any of these guys, but enough is enough with Cena. I know...marketing, face of WWE, money money. Whatever, Cena won't turn heel...but the only time he's been interesting at all in the last few years was last week when he verbally bitch-slapped The Rock.

CM Punk - First, his character works much better chasing the belt whether he's a heel or a face. Now he's a PG stooge, has the belt...does his over-exaggerated facial expressions. He looks and acts like a tool to be honest. He's a horrible character now.

People don't boo the faces because they're faces. They boo bad character turns with no innovation or creativity in the WWE anymore. These are cookie-cutter "faces" that have as much life in them as WWE has energy toward putting together (or finishing) good storylines anymore.

 

[DirtyD79]

A big reason why reactions change is because when major players turn face, they tend to lose many of the qualities that got them over in the first place. Orton, Sheamus, and Punk were all sadistic as heels and now they aren't. From Orton giving Stephanie the hanging DDT and then kissing her while HHH was tied up in the ropes, to Sheamus trying to end careers without mercy, to CM Punk creepily singing "Happy Birthday" to Rey Mysterio's daughter...to see them virtually abandon this aspect of their characters doesn't sit right. Obviously, you can't have faces doing such despicable acts. But my point is that one of the reasons these guys don't get as much love from the IWC as they used to is that their characters aren't the same anymore.

As has been mentioned before, never losing clean ever doesn't help either.

I agree this has been a major problem for a lot of heels when they become babyfaces. Sadly it also seems like anytime a heel turns babyface they lose a lot of the cunning and intelligence they had as heels. We liked the characters because of the way they were and the stuff they did then.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

Wow, where to being.

1) there is NO pleasing the IWC.
2) The IWC LOVES heels, seriously, look at all the "turn so and so heel" there aren't any "turn so and so face" threads.

Next, this bullshit that "guys were more talented in the Tude Era". This isn't true. 1, there wasn't as much competition. Don't be a dumbfuck and say that WCW>TNA, that's not their only competition. Now there are more channels and more media outlets. Plus it's pretty fuckin easy to get over when you can cuss, bleed, show tits, and generally put on a trash TV show. Ask the people from Jersey Shore how hard it is to get over on those concepts.

Basically, the IWC is easy to work, because ot them everything is just the inverse.

Also, lol @ "CM Punk has become boring since turning face". He sells a ton of shirts and is extremely over and outpops and gets more chants than Jericho. What you MEAN to say is "wah wah Punk isn't the underdog anymore, the WWE is realizing his talent like I always said they would never do so now I can't bitch about that so I have to bitch about something else". CM Punk still says "real stuff" and is much MUCH less of a tool than he was when he first started doing his original super hipster, super smarky promos.

 

[scottyshowman82]

Excellent thread with some really good points. I think the WWE lost touch with what the fans wanted a long time ago. It was Paul Heyman that revolutionized the outlaw, Anti Hero, outlaw, and chaos that Vince took upon his show and dubbed Attitude as most us know. It was a move for survival and rating. Vince Mcmahon even said something along the lines of, "When you put my back against the wall... I may do something stupid." Mcmahon may not have even believed in the Attitude Era 100% which I think could be the case because when the threat of WCW was gone he went back to PG. I think today if you really want to put your finger on it, what we see today is hybrid of WWE like it was in like 1995, the family friendly TV with the attitude era because we still have very edgy dark characters that wear simple drunk and are just guys with bad ass attitudes like Randy Orton.

The people that hate PG loved the Attitude Era and don't know why it isn't happening now. They want Attitude era characters like who are dark and entertaining like Steve Austin. Orton was more like Steve Austin when he was with the Legacy and just when he turned face. When Orton went Smackdown he ruled over it. Personally I like Orton these days. His character goes really well with others in certain feuds ad the guy is a solid pro wrestler. Smackdown is the "wrestling show" in WWE and when Orton was on top of Smackdown he put on some of the best matches in the history of that program.

I think the annoyance with people like Orton and Cena and sometimes HHH that get the "Super Label" is that they dominate too much. But yes why does no one complain when Austin,Hogan or Sammartino when they were on top for so long, because they belonged there brother, nobody could deny their overwhelming star power, prescense and draw. Ric Flair the 13 time World Champion people don't really get mad he won that much because the guy was a phemoninal perfomer. He deserved it, he was good for pro wrestling. I think fans think that Orton, Cena and HHH may be good but they don't deserve to given as much title time with the big belts as they had. When you're champion, you're the man and it's an honor and priviledge and the belt brings you to another level which can make wrestling magic. If you got that belt and are not making that magic, I say let the next guy coming up have the thing and let him have the shot to be the next Hulk Hogan, Steve Austin, Bruno or Ric Flair. I do think Cena has deserved his spot. I think he should be on top but have been booked to be vunerable at times, it would have helped him perception these days.

But that's why I get so frustrated when guys get held down, when someone doesn't get the oppurtunity to be the best they can be and possibly become the next wrestling phenomenon we all lose. Think about it if Hulk Hogan or Steve Austin were held down by politics wrestling would have suffered so so much for it.