Quick Thoughts: Is the Face/Heel Turn a Forgotten Art?

[LSN80]

As I sat watching Raw 3 weeks ago, I sat bewildered as I saw Mason Ryan turn on Dolph Ziggler and Jack Swagger, essentially turning face. This is the same man who was apart of the New Nexus, and was very much a heel under the leadership of CM Punk. When Randy Orton punted Ryan in the head, he was written off TV for some time, and made his return to Raw 4 weeks ago in said match. But what is different about Ryan, exactly? He smiles as he comes to the ring, and slaps hands with fans. But what turned him from the Nexus enforcer into the smiling babyface? Was it a money promo, or a strong build of his character? No, it was simply a return to TV, nothing more. There was no motivation behind the turn, or investment into his character. For someone WWE appears to be getting behind somewhat, that's simply not good enough.

For those who've been watching Raw for some time, Im sure you're familar with the Chris Jericho heel turn in 2008 that lead to his epic feud with HBK. Jericho began doing heelish things while maintaining most of the traits that made him Y2J. He choked out JBL at the Royal Rumble and dragged him up the ramp. He won the IC title from Jeff Hardy after mocking him and declaring himself the greater IC champion. He subsequently got himself DQ'd by blasting BIg Show in the head with the title in his first defense. He refereed the Batista/HBK match at Backlash, believing HBK was faking a knee injury. So much of this was classic Y2J and his trademark arrogance, but some was new heel tactics we hadn't seen in awhile. The coup' de gras waas when he had HBK on the Highlight Reel, smashing his face through the JeriTron, successfully executing one of the better heel turns Ive ever seen. This built for four months before Jericho turned.

So what's happened? We've gone from Jericho's epic heel turn to the turns of Mason Ryan and, a better example, Randy Orton. Orton was hated by the fans until heading into his match with Ted DiBiase and Cody Rhodes at WM 26. It wasn't the case of Orton doing anything honorable or changes in his charcter, it was simply that the fans sided with Orton and began cheering him. It's a problem we see in both WWE and TNA. Both companies seem to be of the mindset that simply triggering a heel/face turn of a performer suddenly will provide shock value and interest. Does it work? for a week or two, perhaps, but once the excitement/shock of said turn wears off, what's left for the fans to care about. Instead of executing a turn that can help carry aa company(Like Jericho's), they execute turns that people grow numb to or have no investment in.

There is a solution here, and it's two fold. First, even in the age of the WWE needs to look back at the better turns and see how they got there. CM Punk went from being the straight edge wrestler to being "Better Then You" due to being straight edge. Batista went from Evolution's enforcer to taking the title from HHH at Wrestlemania 21. Both turns took place over time, with hints being dropped along the way until the second part of what makes a turn so successful, a definitive moment. Much like Jericho putting HBK through the JeriTron, Cm Punk and Batista had defining moments that turned them. Who can forget the visual of Batista choosing to face HHH at Wrestlemania and spinebustering him through the table? There are a number of moments that one can point at in Punk's turn, but is there one more memorable then Punk's promo in the crowd at Night of Champions? The point is, these slow builds allowed for those moments to be effective. And the lack of these slow builds is what makes turns today so inconsequential and ineffective. But that's just my opinion, as I want to hear from you.

Has WWE forgotten how to execute a proper face/heel turn?

What's the last great turn you've seen? What made it so effective?

Any other thoughts or discussion on this topic are welcome.

 

[Austin 3:16 4-Life]

Great Topic. I don't post on here very often, but I wanted to chime in on this one.

I don't think WWE has forgotten how to execute a proper face/heel turn. We got a pretty decent turn with Christian earlier this year when he lost the WHC to Orton 5 days after beating ADR. I just think they don't care too much about building ANYTHING for long periods of time due to the audience they have been catering to. Kids could care less if they build a turn or if they switch from one week to the next.

I agree that they don't put the same amount of effort as they used to, but every once in a while, WWE shows us that they can pull off a great turn when want to.

 

[KnowMyRole-ShutYourMouth]

Well, just this year you had Christian's heel turn which built up for a couple months. I'm sure it's still pretty fresh in everyone's minds, but there was a slow burn to it.

Christian fulfilled his life long dream of becoming World Champion, only to have it taken away from him by Randy Orton because the fans voted for him to defend the title 5(2) days after winning the title. He got his rematch and lost. Then, he got screwed in a #1 Contenders Match. And he finally turned when he refereed the Sheamus/Orton Title match on an edition of Smackdown.

Other than him, however, the WWE did go with the quick-turn/explain later routine with R-Truth, Mark Henry, Sheamus, Mason Ryan, Zach Ryder, and, even to an extent, CM Punk.

And before I forget, last year you had Kane's turn (I know, I know, he turns seemingly every other year). Kane had built up his dark crusade of finding the person who put Undertaker in a vegetative state for it to be revealed it was Kane all along.

 

[Ferbian]

I wouldn't necessarily say that WWE has lost the touch of making a proper face and or heel turn. I think it lies mostly in the fact that we haven't had any major situation, nor any major character that needed the proper face / heel turn at all.

The primary turns that I could think of in the past few years would be CM Punk and Randy Orton, going more into a tweener like situation of the two, where Randy is mostly a face and Punk is still a bit heel'ish to me. But neither of these have directly needed a turn, because the fans gradually began cheering both of them, causing them to slowly begin being booked more in the opposite direction, causing the need for a turn to not really be there.

Other than that, the other turns like Mason Ryan was something that wasn't made an instant big deal out of, and I think it's mostly due to the fact that Ryan is nowhere near the character that anybody would care for the shock value of giving him a major turn any time soon. and he had no distinct need to be added to the faction revolving around Dolph and Vickie, nor would he directly be needed as a major heel any time soon, because he'd get lost in the mid-card.

Wrestling as it currently is doesn't really need the big shocker of a turn of alignment, mostly because the only viable person to pull that off currently would have to be John Cena, and we all know that turning Cena heel just isn't gonna cut it, at least not for now, especially not at a point where he's not even in a program with The Rock, who would be the only possible reason for Cena to have the slightest show of being a heel. On top of that, there's no heels that has any major value in being turned face, and it doesn't have that shock value for a heel to turn anyway because like the Chris Jericho and even the CM Punk heel turns, it doesn't make the crowd instantly turn in the opposite direction from cheering to booing you (Or in the heels case, booing to cheering).

Besides, the only closest we've gotten to it would be R-Truth, again a person who doesn't really have the star power to make it any sort of memorable or meaningful. Because lets face it, a proper heel / face turn relies on star power to yank the crowds attention, where as R-Truth was slowly becoming stale and boring anyway, and simply needed the turn.

So it's rather simple, WWE hasn't lost the touch, they just haven't needed to bring it forth.

As for the latest and most efficient turn I've seen, it would clearly have to be dating back to CM Punk. Not only did it give him a whole lot of momentum to work with, after cashing in his Money in the Bank for the World Heavyweight Championship against Jeff Hardy, but it also launched him towards a long period of great feuds, adopting a great aspect of his gimmick, and just a whole lot of great feuds that made CM Punk more or less become the king of the IWC, as well as put him hugely over as a heel.

 

[Peoples_Champ]

While I don't disagree totally with the OP, I think the Mason Ryan turn can't be used a case and point. Mason Ryan had very little momentum before the turn and the turn itself was a shock event designed to generate momentum. It would have been better if he had cut a backstage promo after saying that he hates Vickie Guerrero's stable and her shrill yelling (something fans can relate to). The problem here is what the OP was talking about, the turn itself was an isolated incident.

So yeah, I'm not opposed to what happened with the turn, but I do think they need to build before or after it happens before they can continue on with their plans (feuds, matches, etc.). That was the problem with the CM Punk situation, they didn't know what to do with him and his situation.

 

[berlinbrawler]

There have been numerous well executed heel turns in recent years. Christian, for example, was exceptionally well done. Alex Riley's faceturn was well done. CM Punk went very subtly from heel to tweener to face, just like a couple of years ago when it was the other way around (starting with face CM Punk cashing in on Jeff Hardy).
Randy Orton's faceturn was well done, too. And I think they are in the process of slowly turning Daniel Bryan heel. Slow turns are usually very good (if I'm correct with this one, that is).
R-Truth's heel turn happened rather sudden, but it made sense. When he snapped that night at Morrison it made sense. He just got tricked out of the title shot he had wanted for so long.

So, no, I would have to say saying WWE has forgotten how to do it is grossly unfair.

Of course there have always been examples that didn't really make sense. Mark Henry's last heel turn, for example. He got the news that he would be drafted to Smackdown. So on his last night on RAW he decided to suddenly stop being a nice guy. Huh? Fortunately no one gave a flying f**** about him at that time anyway, so they could get away with it... But overall the WWE still knows how to do it. You want to see an overabundance of pointless turns? Watch TNA.

What's the last great turn you've seen? What made it so effective?

Historically speaking, Hulk Hogan. There isn't even a comparison. Explanation unnecessary.

However by the time Hogan turned I was already a jaded fan and saw such things coming. So from a personal perspective, the greatest shock for me was the first heel turn I ever saw, which was Shawn Michaels throwing Jannetty through a window. I actually got goose bumps from it and had trouble sleeping that night because I felt so angry and sad for Jannetty.

 

[xoxo French Kiss xoxo]

Absolutely not,

They turned Christian from a baby face to a total heel earlier this year during his feud with Orton. Christian won his first World Title(in the WWE where it counts) in a ladder match vs ADR with Edge in his corner only to lose the title to Orton a few days later. Christian went from baby face to heel because he was tired of the politics involved on Smackdown and felt he had been mistreated in being forced into a title match with Orton so soon after winning the title in a ladder match. We then saw different situations where Orton and Christian were paired up as tag partners only to have that relationship dissolve because Christian wanted the WHC, he started doing heel like things, and then BOOM he turned completely heel. Thanks to Christian turning heel we got to see one of the better programs the WWE has had to offer over the past year between him and Orton. Multiple matches have taken place between the two of them, and many of them have been 4-5 star matches.

In the same period of time they took Sheamus who was on of the most hated heels in the company and turned him into the second biggest face on Smackdown. They put him up against Henry the biggest heel on Smackdown and he instantly became a face. They continue to push Sheamus as the I'm a total bad ass and Ill fight whoever you put in my path and the fans ate it up. They put Sheamus turning face against a heel Christian and continued both wrestlers paths in their new roles.

Every one's favorite poster child CM Punk was the Leader of what was left of the Nexus, he was a heel before going into MITB to face Cena and after beating Cena and walking away with the WWE Title from the WWE, CM Punk became the 2nd biggest Face on Raw (If you think he's above Cena, you are sadly mistaken) Since that time Punk has been involved in a feud with Triple H where although the WWE wanted Triple H to be the face of the feud, the fans still back Punk. He was since been put against Nash (which thankfully has stopped) and Raws WWE Champion Alberto Del Rio.

 

[kokoBawesome]

The heel/face turn should always be done with an epic moment. The betrayal of a friend or the screwing over of a good guy is a great way to get the fans to hate you (the Rockers in the barber shop). The heel running in to make the save when the face is getting beat by a stable or tag team is a great way to show that he's had a change of heart (Sheamus a few weeks ago). I'm having trouble coming up with other ways to make the change though. Maybe an in ring promo like Bret's pro Canada rant, but I wasn't watching during those years so I can't be sure.

Usually it involves an interference at the end of a match or a run in, hopefully at a pay per view. Stone Cold jumping sides and joining up with Vince may be the best official Heel turn ever, after all it happened in the main event of Wrestlemania and it was the two people you would never expect to see join sides.

I don't wanna rag on the current WWE product too hard, but it seems like they don't really have much love for the epic moment nowadays. C.M. Punk comes back on raw two weeks after screwing over the company (if that), Rey wins his first world title and loses it an hour later(i think that same night), and HHH gets fired as COO twenty minutes into Raw. It wasn't even the climax of the damn show. The company isn't placing a lot of effort into face/heel turns because they don't have patience for anything lately.

Quick though: another problem might be that the biggest stars sometimes don't have defined goodguy/badguy roles. Eddie Guerrero cheated to win against everyone, but instead of the fans turning on him they cheered louder. It became his gimmick and he became the face of the WWE for a hot minute.

 

[xoxo French Kiss xoxo]

Honorable mention to Alex Riley. There was a slight build up to him turning face after weeks and weeks of the Miz calling him everything but a piece of shit, then Riley SNAPPED and beat the piss out of the Miz. A few weeks later we see Alex Riley teaming with John Cena in a tag match, SCSA is tossing him beers, and then he's eating stunners.

I think turning Ryan face has backfired on the WWE so far, because Ryan is too green. He should have stayed in the monster heel position under someones boot until he got better on the mic or interesting in the ring before turning face. Folks are right comparing him to Batista, because Batista was complete garbage for the first 2 years he was in the WWE, and Ryan's following in his steps nicely

 

[akrassikauda]

Good question because everytime you think creative knows what they're doing you get Mason Ryan. No heel build up at all then he turns face. This was right after what looked like build up for Ziggler to turn face after weeks of back and forth between him and Vickie and Swagger looked to take his spot.

As regards to R-Truth it would have been good if Ron Ron didn't spoil the damn turn a few hours before it aired thus ruining the turn.

When turning someone heel or face a lot of pieces must fit to the puzzle and be executed at the right time. There are some things that must be done to ensure the AWE factor with any turn

1) Keep the knowledge of a turn to a slim number of people (Hogan at Bash At The Beach 96 only Bischoff and the participants in the match knew the finish Hogan actually didn't show up to the end)

2) Never do a turn on a taped program (With the internet or talent spoiling everything to keep the AWE factor have it done live)

3) Always have an explanation for the turn (This is what killed me with Ryan, not only was there no build but why did he turn. With R-Truth we got an explanation he snapped and was tired of all the Lil' Jimmies)

If creative for WWE or TNA would follow these three steps the shock value should be good.

 

[Dagger Dias]

The way they turned Ryan face was extremely lazy. He should have been slowly built into a face. Returning only to randomly turn on a heel tag team parnter then start smiling with no reasons for why is NOT how you turn someone.

LSN provided the perfect example when he mentioned Jericho's turn in 2008. A heel turn can get away with a random moment for the turn better than a face turn can. All Jericho really needed to do was when he smashed Michaels through the JeriTron. That was something big and probably the last truly well done turn I can recall in WWE. Face turns need to be slower though. A random act of kindness cannot justify someone turning face. He was evil just a week ago, why am I supposed to suddenly cheer for him if they gave me no reason to?

Turns need to be a gradual process for faces because it gives fans a reason to eventually root for the guy. Heels can get away with a random sudden turn if their heel action is evil enough to make the fans not like him anymore. WWE has gotten too lazy with their turns. Ryan's is proof of that.

 

[JWGunslinger]

Has WWE forgotten how to execute a proper face/heel turn?
I'm not sure I would say that they've forgotten and can't do it anymore, but I definitely agree that Mason Ryan's turn was one of the dumbest things I've ever seen and had there been a promo or confrontation to show why he turned heel I would have bought it alot more than I do right now. It does however, feel like they didn't do things like the Ryan turn back in the older days, maybe it's just because those moments wouldn't be memorable but it feels like it's been too long since a really well built turn(minus Christian).

What's the last great turn you've seen? What made it so effective?
There have been plenty of good turns in WWE history, but the last great turn goes to my boy Chris Jericho. I could easily write an essay on why Jericho is so great but the reason he stands out when it comes to returns or turns, he is a perfectionist and is always trying to be as creative and fresh as possible. That works perfectly for a good build up to a heel turn and anyone who watched at the time remembers that turn not just because it signified the end of the face Y2J but because the build up was so excellent that it really pulled you into his character more and made his turn feel more legitimate, as opposed to Ryan sitting on his couch and then deciding he wanted to be nice?

 

[kokoBawesome]

Alex Riley is a great example of that epic moment the WWE does so well. TOTALLY forgot about him (kind of a shame). He not only turns his back on his abusive mentor after being blamed for a loss, he beats the living sh*t out of him. Not a fan of the Miz, but if he wasn't a good heel, that moment would have meant nothing. But because it took place after Wrestlemania, and because the Miz was the top heel, the face turn was epic enough to keep getting him big pops weeks later. If the would just walked out on the Miz he would have gone straight to superstars to die a slow death.

Great call!!! Wish I would have thought of it first.

 

[Krossbreed]

Good topic...mason ryan's face turn is because he wants the us title. What would have been interesting was if he did a run in on orton before his turn and gave him payback for punting him hence costing him the title that he would've dropped to christian then he gained it back and dropped it to henry... then coming to raw doing what he did to ziggler and swagger except he shouldve gotten a promo before saying, im here to be a champion and im going to work my way all the way to the wwe title...then the commentators would then be able to mention mason ryan is not here to be on anyone's stable he's here for gold...that's just unfortunate for ziggler...mason is here to make an impact.

 

[Radio GaGa]

I know it wasn't televised and all, but one of the better face turns was Zack Ryder's face turn. He was a heel for more than 20 week when he already had his show and was cheered a lot, but the WWE Didn't rush it... Sheamus could be turned better too... It was a bit confusing. Got to agree on the Jericho turn. It was awesome!

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

Not they haven't forgotten how. Mason Ryan is a face because there are too many heels on Raw and he is a big beastly bastard who is going to make a great badass (which there really aren't many of right now).

Ryan didn't have an explanation, but he didn't need one. His character was never fleshed out to begin with. Never need explanations before for his actions, was just kind of there. Why waste air time explaining things that people will just generally accept?

I think that you don't see as many dramatic turns (which is kind of nostalgia-fueled bs) because the crowd isn't uniform. How do you turn someone when the smarks boo him and the normal people cheer him and vice-versa? If you turned Cena heel, INSTANTLY the smarks would start cheering because they think they want him to turn heel, shit you see "turn Cena heel signs" because they WANT to cheer him. The normal people would boo. So what exactly did you accomplish?

Christian's turn was good. Plus if you do a lot of dramatic "ZOMG HE HATED HIM ALL ALONG" then it loses it's luster and diminishes each additional turn. In the attitude era there was a joke that if the NFL were like pro wrestling, the game would be like this "Petyon manning back to pass, defense blitzing, Peyton looks like he's going to get sack.....WHAT? He just hands the defense the BALL??? What the hell? He's taking off his jersey, O MY GOD PEYTON MANNING HAS BEEN WITH THE PATRIOTS ALL ALONG!!!!" When you have so many turns that it becomes a JOKE and sort of a staple of what your programming is, you have too many.

 

[whoopin' ass]

In many ways it is simply because it happens too often for some people or it doesn't make any sense. Part of the catch with a face/heel turn is that it surprises people. Think Hogan in WCW - no one really saw it coming like it did especially after being face for so long. today, it happens too often for some wrestlers and is out of character. I loved watching Edge turn back and forth between face and heel because he rarely did anything different - he was still him, just now he was feuding with a different batch of people. a great example of one that is out of character was Kurt Angle's heel turn a few months back. After the Main Event Mafia angle, he turned face talking about how the young guys earned his respect and yet he turns heel talking about how he is going to take the young guys out one by one. what changed? nothing other than they wanted him heel. you can't just turn someone face or heel because you need them, there needs to be some reason behind it and it has to make some sort of sense even in the wrestling bubble.

 

[J-sin]

Two that come to mind for me are:
When Kurt Angle started his last reign as a WWE Champ, after Batista got injured and had to give up his title. One night on Raw he was one of the top heels, he even had Daivari as a manager and had an Anti-American gimmick. Then on the following Smackdown he won the Battle Royal for the vacated Championship and was immediately without any explanation the top face.

And secondly is the night after the whole WCW/ECW invasion ended, Stone Cold went from being the Top Heel, to being Top Face without any explanation, literally overnight, it was like they just forgot the whole invasion even happened. It was at this time that he stopped saying "What?" but still to this day the crowd still cants it. Although I do wish he kept the Theme Music he had during that time.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

I think it has something to do with what the audience wants to see in a wrestling show. The product and even what the people demand from the product has undergone a huge change when you compare it from say 1996. People in general want to be entertained at a faster rate and have less patience these days. So when the impatient audience is wanting to cheer for a guy why not give them a chance to do it right then instead of going through 3 months of slow build by which time some other stories may have developed and the crowd may not be interested in the performer anymore.

Let us take the case of Orton. People may not have liked the way he turned but they cannot dispute the fact that it was immensely successful. It was just a case of seizing the moment. People were cheering Orton and voila, the WWE gave the fans a reason to cheer for him. There was no need really for a slow build. People were more interested to see what he would do as a good guy rather than why he would become a good guy. The thing that I feel is that when an organic turn takes place the reasons building upto that turn are not really required especially if the audience is familiar with the wrestler. That is why it is called an organic turn. The story does not decide your turn, the people do and the company has no choice but to play along.

Now we come to the turns of Chris Jericho and Christian. They were not swift turns but niether were they organic terms. In such a scenario you had to tell the people why they people were turning and hence WWE went through with a detailed storyline. It was more of an effort to get the crowd interested in the characters of the respective wrestlers more than anything else.

Guys like Ryan are a more simple case. The New Nexus was over when Ryan returned so he had to start afresh anyway be it as a heel or a face. And the WWE went with a face turn. It was more of a matter of choice more than anything else because it would not have mattered had he returned as a heel or a face. He would have had to return in a different character at any rate.

 

[Headman]

Mason Ryan was part of a group taking orders from CM Punk who was basically a cult leader. Mason's character probably saw the nexus as A: the best way to make an impact. And B: Was probably fed a lot of BS by Punk so who's to say he was ever a really bad guy to begin with? The way I see it, post Nexus no one really knew where Ryan as an individual stood and falsely assumed he would align himself with heels. Even in the Nexus Ryan hinted that even CM Punk had trouble controlling him. So with no real defined identity for Ryan a story driven face turn would be wasted. Save that for later when he turns heel and starts destroying everyone and their moms.

 

[RicoLen]

Has WWE forgotten how to execute a proper face/heel turn?

R-Truth's heel turn was pretty damned good all the way around. Probably one of the very best heel turns I've seen. That being the case, I'd say, no.

However, the face turn is woefully lacking. I couldn't even tell you the last time I saw a face turn that meant a damn to me. I suppose Kurt Angle's face turn back when he returned from injury in the WWE and he was in the ring asking everyone to chant "you suck" to his music. That wasn't a great one, but it was pretty good I'd say.

IMO Face turns are a whole lot harder to pull off and require a good story. There's the old route of just having a good work ethic and getting over with the fans by being a great heel and gathering more and more fan support. That's what CM Punk did. But when you want to swerve someone with a great face turn it CAN be spectacularly awesome. Look at Randy Savage's face turn at WM7. That was the best face turn ever. Look at Mr. Perfect's face turn on the prime-time wrestling the week before Survivor Series '92. That was quite literally awesome.

I seriously think that The Miz could pull off something like a Mr. Perfect face turn, and I hope he does. A dramatic, well told story leading up to the face turn could put The Miz on top of the WWE.

What's the last great turn you've seen? What made it so effective?

R-Truth's heel turn was the last great one I've seen. The best part about it was that he went into that match face, without any real sign of what was to come, and one Morrison pinned him, you couldn't help but feel bad for the guy and/or feel like he was dumb to accept the match. Then you could watch him struggling with his loss, and then finally snap. And even after he snapped he kept struggling with what he had done, even coming back to console Morrison and apologize only to lose it again and attack him again. I especially liked him lighting up and then flicking the cigarette at Morrison afterwards.

 

[The 1-2-3 Killam]

It's not the art of the turn, it's the art of the sport that's lost... We don't have artists struggling to perfect their craft, we have sports entertainers - movie stars on steroids (sometimes literally). It's not creative's fault we have very few compelling characters, it's the people behind them! Chris Jericho, the Rock, Edge, Eddie Guerrero, Shawn Micheals, Ric Flair, Randy Savage, Jake Roberts, Triple H, Steve Austin, and yes...even John Cena for awhile (start of his main event run to the feud with Edge was BRILLIANT!). All of those guys have two things in common...they made it to the top, and the stayed there. But they also did one more thing, took control of their own character, went out there, and did their OWN thing. Those are not guys that sat in gorilla watching the greats, waiting for creative to hand them a script. Those are the guys who showed up to the arena with their own script in hand, gave to it the agent and went to war over their own character. Chris Jericho didn't pull off a "heel turn" he pulled off a CHARACTER turn. He captivated EVERYONE during that feud, and it is one of my, if not my favorite feud of the last five years.

They have a lack of people unwilling or unmotivated to take control. They're too scared of the giant pyramid of power to break free and do something revolutionary. Punk isn't at the level of the men I listed...yet...but he did tell Vince that he wasn't signing a contract unless certain things changed. And that's what needs to happen. That is what makes wrestling more than sports entertainment. We need creative minds back in the business.