Is the "N" Word acceptable in music?

[Tastycles]

I will be typing the actual word during this post, but if anyone finds that offensive, I will censor it.

I was listening to Elvis Costello the other day, and it struck me that the lyrics for Oliver's Army are never censored out on the radio. Now, you may wonder why, but he says a line something like "itchy finger, just pull the trigger, one more kill, one less white ******", referring to the English slaughter of the Irish in the 17th century, "Oliver" being Cromwell. The reason he says this isn't racism from Costello, but a reference to the term "******s of Europe" for the Irish, because they did low paying manual labour jobs throughout the continent in the wake of persecution and the potato famine.

It reminded me of this thing I was reading thing where Sway DaSafo, a grime artist had petitioned the government to outaw the use of the n-word completely in music, saying that it was racist, even if used by a black man. It may become relevant in somebody's argunment, so I'll say that Sway himself is black.

What's your opinion on the matter? I understand that it is a strong part of some people's identity, but that doesn't stop it being a racist term to the vast majority. If I say the word in one of my raps, which by the way, are awesome, I'm quite rightly seen as a racist, but if a black man does it they aren't, even though the offense is still there for black people who don't identify with it.

Let me put it in perspective. If a woman says something like "women are stupid, we shouldn't have the vote and we should stay in the kitchen", its still sexist, and a lot of women would be offended, so why isn't the same case for the n-word? What do you think?

For me it goes one of two ways. If like Costello, you are making a sarcastic, or contextualised point e.g. "I get kept down because I'm a ******" then I completely think that its use is justified, and shouldn't be banned. However, something like "all my ******s", were it is just blanketly calling black people that word, it is just as racist as if I shouted it down the street, and it should be banned. What do you think?

 

[X]

I'm completely against any kind of censorship, and you proposing that people no longer use the "N" word (talking pretty much exclusively about hip hop) is pretty ridiculous to me Tasty. I love you, but it's simply not racist, and is perfectly acceptable. Why? Because the word isn't used in a racist manner. When a rapper uses the N word, it's as a term of endearment, and has become so ingrained in everyday slang that even if you did want it to stop, it never will. And I see no reason for it to. A rapper is first and foremost a storyteller or a street poet, and to do that you need to use the words of the street; and the N word is one of them.

A rapper using the N word isn't racist, because he isn't using it to deride his own race or people, he's using it as it's commonly used today, and that is as a slang word. No different from some white stoner saying "Dude" or some fratboy saying "Bro". It's just slang.

Art is supposed to piss people off. The minute you start toning it down so as not to offend someone, you've just sold out your own principles. Art isn't safe Tasty, and absolutely nothing should be off limits.

 

[Tastycles]

I'm completely against any kind of censorship, and you proposing that people no longer use the "N" word (talking pretty much exclusively about hip hop) is pretty ridiculous to me Tasty. I love you, but it's simply not racist, and is perfectly acceptable. Why? Because the word isn't used in a racist manner.

Its calling black people the same things that their slave owners used to. I'm not particularly offended by it, I'm not black, but if black people do find it offensive, then it shouldn't be used. Why is it fair that people who are sensitive about the way that their heritage to hear that word? Why isn't it racist? If a woman wrote a song about all women beig useless, it'd still be sexist, right?

I don't really think there should be censorship, except in instances where it causes serious offence. If my idea of fine art was taking pictures of men having sex with twelve year old girls in Angola, should that be publically displayed? Remember, that isn't illegal, but it is most definitely offensive.

When a rapper uses the N word, it's as a term of endearment, and has become so ingrained in everyday slang that even if you did want it to stop, it never will. And I see no reason for it to. A rapper is first and foremost a storyteller or a street poet, and to do that you need to use the words of the street; and the N word is one of them.

The language of the street is racist, and that shouldn't be given a public soapbox. If I wrote a song that called Jews "hooknosed oven dodgers", it would be something that I had heard on the street quite recently, but it is wholly inappropriate.

A rapper using the N word isn't racist, because he isn't using it to deride his own race or people, he's using it as it's commonly used today, and that is as a slang word. No different from some white stoner saying "Dude" or some fratboy saying "Bro". It's just slang.

Except, I think, I think, nobody has ever been kept as a slave by somebody calling them a dude. I wouldn't really care if "******" was a word that was widespread amongst all groups, but it isn't. If I called a black man a "******", I'd be, rightly, chastised for it. All I am saying is that a term that is still regarded as being racist probably shouldn't be used.

Art is supposed to piss people off. The minute you start toning it down so as not to offend someone, you've just sold out your own principles. Art isn't safe Tasty, and absolutely nothing should be off limits.

Except it has to be. Art can be incendary, and that's fine, but some things have to be off limits. I think something that offends people would be fine too, I'm not saying that things have to be toned down across the board, but I am saying that a word which envokes one of the darkest periods of world history should probably be avoided.

I should probably add, that I don't mean the word should be banned from use completely, just that I think that it probably shouldn't be broadcast without censorship on TV or radio. In the same way that porno isn't, basically.

 

[Ty Burna]

Its calling black people the same things that their slave owners used to. I'm not particularly offended by it, I'm not black, but if black people do find it offensive, then it shouldn't be used. Why is it fair that people who are sensitive about the way that their heritage to hear that word? Why isn't it racist? If a woman wrote a song about all women beig useless, it'd still be sexist, right?

So from what I've seen, and the black people I know and are friends with (most of them being fans of hip hop such as myself), the term "*****" doesn't bother them that much. Like X said, most of the people that use ***** use it like I would use bro/man/dude/homie etc. The real issue is the term "******" which was used by slave owners. Now you may sit there and say they are the same words, but they're not. I had a conversation with a friend of mine, and he said he doesn't get offended by the term ***** because pretty much anyone can use it nowadays. His example is at a party he saw two younger white girls had to be around 18 calling each other *****, but they were across the room from each other, and it wasn't meant in malice, but just a slang word for friend is all. The song you brought up in your first post Tasty, used the word ******, not *****, and ****** is more commonly used as a racist term. Hip hop artists who use ***** don't mean it in a racist way, and if people got issue with people using that word, well then they have the choice not to listen to that music then.

I don't really think there should be censorship, except in instances where it causes serious offence. If my idea of fine art was taking pictures of men having sex with twelve year old girls in Angola, should that be publically displayed? Remember, that isn't illegal, but it is most definitely offensive.

Right, because rock bands who talk about sex, drugs, partying etc. isn't offensive to anyone right? Hip hop gets bashed because some artists use a term which the meaning of has nothing to do with racism.

The language of the street is racist, and that shouldn't be given a public soapbox. If I wrote a song that called Jews "hooknosed oven dodgers", it would be something that I had heard on the street quite recently, but it is wholly inappropriate.

Of course the street is racist, that's how it is. You can take a look and find some sort of racism in everyone if you can contort and listen hard enough to the way people talk. However, the racism that is a concern are hate crimes, but we're so stuck on someone saying a word or phrase that we completely ignore that. Hell look at the ethnic cleansings that have gone on in the world that most people don't give a fuck about. But I'm supposed to be worried about offending someone with a word that the people I'm around are comfortable with, and most hip hop artists have grown comfortable with using? Nah that ain't right. I'm sorry Tasty but ya have never been to a ghetto or a less than reputable area of a larger city. Everyone uses the word ***** there, whites, Native Americans, blacks, mexicans, the only people that get offended are these uppity motherfuckers like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton who make a living and public profile off of racial controversies like that.

Except, I think, I think, nobody has ever been kept as a slave by somebody calling them a dude. I wouldn't really care if "******" was a word that was widespread amongst all groups, but it isn't. If I called a black man a "******", I'd be, rightly, chastised for it. All I am saying is that a term that is still regarded as being racist probably shouldn't be used.

And again the word "******' is different from "*****". Rightfully so you'll get chastised if you call a black man a ******, some may not like if you call them a ***** either. But the reason for them being incensed about ***** is because many see that as a word they should only be able to use within their group. Which is fine, I tend to not use the word that often but only when a comical situation calls for the use of it.

Except it has to be. Art can be incendary, and that's fine, but some things have to be off limits. I think something that offends people would be fine too, I'm not saying that things have to be toned down across the board, but I am saying that a word which envokes one of the darkest periods of world history should probably be avoided.

See section above. But I will add when that whole issue went down about the use ***** a couple years ago and you had Paul Mooney up there with Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson saying "I'll never use that word again etc etc etc", how much did that help? Did all the hip hop artists suddenly stop using the word? No because to be honest it just upsets the people that give a fuck about controversy. Those on the street don't care, those that go and work for a living and gotta raise a faimly don't care, they got far more issues to worry about then a word that came up in a hip hop song. I get called cracker for being white, I get called a Pollock for being Polish, at times I've been called a Nazi for being German, a communist for being Russian, etc. I don't let that shit bother me, I laugh it off and make jokes about that shit. So do most people that get called *****, or we get a could discussion about the use of the word.

I should probably add, that I don't mean the word should be banned from use completely, just that I think that it probably shouldn't be broadcast without censorship on TV or radio. In the same way that porno isn't, basically.

Well it is edited right now, so what you think should be in place already is. I don't know how it is over there Tasty, but here on the radio, unless it's satellite radio or premium TV channels, the word ***** is edited out of music.

 

[obiwansidisi]

Let's clear this up. I'm Black, so when I say this, I'm telling you how we look at it. The word is insulting. Forget the Hip-Hop community for a moment... step outside of that. The word was and is still being used in the context of hatred. You may be offended by this, but here goes:

White people always sit back and say, "I don't get it. Why can you say it and we can't?" The answer is because you can't. Hitler and the SS used the word Kike. To this day, you can't call a Jewish person Kike, because they'd be ready to fight, and within this... you can respect that… but yet continue to question the use of the word ******. If you'd ever seen the movie Havoc, you'd understand... but for those that haven't, I'll explain. The movie was about these rich white kids from Beverly Hills that loved the Black culture so much, that they had convinced themselves that they were Black. They hung out in Black areas, wore certain clothes, and used the word ****** freely, so much so in fact, that it was unnecessary. In the end, they realized that they way that they were acting was ridiculous… which brings up the main point of the movie. They lived in Beverley Hills… not the hood. In school, they would “*****’, niggia’, *****” all day, but go home to their million dollar neighborhoods at night. By the end of the movie, they had made such a mess of things that they just went back to their own neighborhood ad changed their lifestyle; therein lies the point… they could go back to their nice, safe homes… while the ******s, continue to be… ******s.

My point is, don’t worry about the use of the word “******” in music. Yes, it’s ignorant… yes, it’s stupid. Jay-Z can say that’s it’s a term of endearment all he wants too. People with intelligence hate the word… we loathe it… we despise it. The reason it exists, is because it sells. No matter how much you want to deny it… you like saying it, and as long as you do, it will continue to exist… especially in Hip-Hop…

 

[CMCoke42381]

Its ******ed in general. I wont get into this though because truth be told as a White Male there's no right way of debating this unless you kiss butt like a pro liberal hippie.