Is rape ever the 'victims' fault?

[HBK-aholic]

I was looking through another forum a couple of weeks ago, and I saw a post from someone which said that some women deserve this due to the way they dress e.g. in a provocative way.

Personally, I completely disagree with this statement. Rape is forced, meaning no one can ask for it. The way you dress is up to you. No item of clothing screams out "assault me". If someone wants to dress in a low cut top or short skirt, they should be able to without fear of being raped and then blamed for it.

Rape is about control. It isn't about someones desire for sex. Therefore clothing means very little. Rapists are opportunists, and what you wear has nothing to do with that. It's about being in the wrong plave at the wrong time.

What do you think about this? I'm pretty sure not one of you would ever do something like that, but are the people that do justified? Or should a woman make sure she dresses 'sensibly' to avoid something like this. It seems now, society expects women to work against being raped, almost as if it's expected if they don't act certain ways.

 

[DJ]

I would not say its ever a womens fault.Rape is sick and wrong and people who do it are sick monster who should go to hell.But If I was a rapist (which Im not of course!) and saw a hot girl in a short skirt,surely that would influence me?

Another factor I think would be location.If a women goes down to a dirty part of town dressed in a skirt and short top,well come on,rapists have a target.No police or anything means easy pickens.It all comes down to playing it smart and going to a safe location.

 

[jmt225]

No means no, end of story. There is no excuse. If a woman says no, then you stop pressuring her. I don't care if the act has already started. If she changed her mind, then yeah that sucks, but deal with it. Forcing yourself on someone in that manner should never, ever be an option. Only pieces of shit with zero will power are the ones who aren’t able to step away from it and just go home, jackoff, and hope that next time they’ll be luckier.

Also, and I apologize if this isn't the way you intended this topic to go HBK-aholic, but I must bring it up.... statutory rape. Yes, there are a lot 14-16 year-old girls out there today who are unbelievably attractive and sexy, but if we're over the age of let’s say 20, we have no right to have sex with them. No matter how good looking they are and how bad they pressure us to do it, it is up to us as a responsible adult to say no to these girls. That it isn't right and that she should be looking for boys her own age. I cannot stand it when I read some asshole defend up for these douchebags who get caught trying to meet up with underage kids to have sex with them. They say, “They got bait into it” and all that other ******ed crap. Bullshit. What kind of adult gets bait into meeting up with someone who is underage, and having the main objection of sleeping with him or her? A no good piece of shit, that’s who.

 

[HBK-aholic]

I would not say its ever a womens fault.Rape is sick and wrong and people who do it are sick monster who should go to hell.But If I was a rapist (which Im not of course!) and saw a hot girl in a short skirt,surely that would influence me?

Possibly. But my point is, that's not the womans fault. If his mind is so sick that he will indeed rape her, she cannot be blamed simply because it was hot and she had a skirt on. A few people now actually say she almost asked for it for wearing something like that, when that is in no way the case.

Another factor I think would be location.If a women goes down to a dirty part of town dressed in a skirt and short top,well come on,rapists have a target.No police or anything means easy pickens.It all comes down to playing it smart and going to a safe location.

This is what I mean about rape almost being accepted as something that will happen. If someone wants to go to a graveyard to visit a dead relative, she should be allowed to do that without the risk of rape, as well as being blamed afterwards for putting herself in that position. You can get raped anywhere, there is no safe place anymore. But the more women are blamed for it, the more it becomes acceptable in society.

 

[HBK-aholic]

No means no, end of story. There is no excuse. If a woman says no, then you stop pressuring her. I don't care if the act has already started. If she changed her mind, then yeah that sucks, but deal with it. Forcing yourself on someone in that manner should never, ever be an option. Only pieces of shit with zero will power are the ones who aren’t able to step away from it and just go home, jackoff, and hope that next time they’ll be luckier.

I agree with this completely.

Also, and I apologize if this isn't the way you intended this topic to go HBK-aholic, but I must bring it up.... statutory rape. Yes, there are a lot 14-16 year-old girls out there today who are unbelievably attractive and sexy, but if we're over the age of let’s say 20, we have no right to have sex with them. No matter how good looking they are and how bad they pressure us to do it, it is up to us as a responsible adult to say no to these girls. That it isn't right and that she should be looking for boys her own age. I cannot stand it when I read some asshole defend up for these douchebags who get caught trying to meet up with underage kids to have sex with them. They say, “They got bait into it” and all that other ******ed crap. Bullshit. What kind of adult gets bait into meeting up with someone who is underage, and having the main objection of sleeping with him or her? A no good piece of shit, that’s who.

This is also a very good topic, thank you for bringing it up. And it's also something I'm in 2 minds about.

The thing is, the age of consent is messed up. In America it's 18, in England; 16. Does this mean girls mature faster in England? I understand the need for an age of consent, because there'd be havoc without it. But at the same time, it depends on maturity. I know plenty of 16 year old girls who are no where near mature enough to think about sex. I know others who have been doing so for nearly 2 years. Then there's others who are mature enough but just don't feel ready.

As for statutory rape, it is honestly something that just can be broken down into so many things. There are some men who really do go after vulnerable underage girls to sleep with them. These are the men I despise. And the word rape is definately needed to be used here.

But then there are other relationships with teenagers and older men which are nothing about that. It is possible for a 16 year old to have a relationship with someone older, depending on maturity etc. I know people in that situation now, and I myself have. It really is hard to define a line between the 2, due to the amount of people out there simply to abuse vulnerable girls.

 

[Joaquim Akaem]

I don't think you will find a single person who will argue this point siding with the rapists.
There's just no way anybody can say "it was her fault, she was asking for it". That is an icredibley ignorant and insensitive thing to say, no matter how the girl was dressed or how she was acting.

What does annoy me though, is the way some girls are willing to lie about being raped just to get attention or money.
I'm talking specifically about the young Manchester Utd footballer who was accused of such a terrible offence. Now im not 100% certain of the facts, but to me it sounds like the poor boy has been used, and his career nearly ruined, just because some girl had it in her mind that if she had sex with a Manchester Utd player, and then accused him of rape, it would mean $£$£$ for her.

 

[Father:_Polley]

At the end of it all, rape is not about wanting to have sex with someone out of love, it's about wanting to have sex so much that it becomes about just having sex, the person is nothing.

Ok, there's the argument that the victims often draw attention to themselves by wearing pretty much nothing. That's their choice, but they don't ask to be raped at any stage.
As for the situation where women lie about being raped to get money, that's just wrong and no-one should ever have the right to screw with people's lives in that way. accusing someone of rape in the wrong is just as bad as being a rapist in my eyes

 

[klunderbunker]

I have to agree with the majority here. There is no way that you can validate rape in any way at all. All you are saying in that case is that you can't hold in your animalistic lust and are less of a human than your anatomy would imply. To blame something like this on a woman who dresses in a provocative way is like saying that putting a car in a drive way and not in a garage prompted you to steal it. All it means is a person became obsessed with owning something that they couldn't have and couldn't control themselves. No way is that by any means a defense.

 

[Shocky]

I'm going to be apart of the minority on this one. Hell yes the victims in some situation have as much blame as the person involved.

John Travolta said it best in Face/Off, if you dress like Halloween, ghouls will try to get into your pants. Don't dress like a ****, or don't dress like you're easy, and guys won't get that impression that you are that type of girl. There is a difference between dressing provocatively, and dressing like a tramp. If you chose to dress, and act like a tramp, beware the consequences.

Plus you get into situations like "Date Rape", which in my opinion is the dumbest law I have ever heard. You wake up the next day and realize, oh shit, I was drunk out of my ass and had sex with someone I didn't want to have sex with, I was date raped, I'm going to put you in jail. That's some bullshit if I've ever heard of it.

 

[MisterRob]

Delete this thread!

And Uncle Shocky should be neutered. Sorry, but no matter how you dress if someone attempts anything on you and you say "no" and they force you against your will, there's no possible way you're to blame for anything. Saying they're partly to blame for it because of how they dress is a rapist's excuse, thank you.

And also, do some research about what "Date Rape" actually means, because you're ignorant.

 

[Shocky]

Understanding date rape as a social issue is difficult due to conceptual differences about what even constitutes "rape". It both reflects and is reflected by political and sociological differences in ways of viewing gender roles, personal responsibility, and social norms for topics such as flirting, dress, and what physical contact constitutes a violation. Debates on this topic often reflect polarized opinions in which proponents of differing viewpoints are accused of "radical feminism" or being "misogynistic".

Similarly, institutional responses, including efforts in the criminal justice system, have been difficult to establish. Colleges and universities have attempted to develop policies and guidelines for prevention and discipline that can be unwieldy and unenforceable. While criminal prosecution of stranger rape (eg: no pre-existing relationship) is sufficiently difficult, date rape can be even more difficult to prosecute.

This is due to the highly subjective components involved in determining consent, and conscious intention, as well as attitudes towards gender, sexuality, and individual responsibility. With the addition of socially sanctioned use of alcohol (most date rapes included the use of alcohol by at least one partner, while over half involved the use by both partners) the likelihood of such miscommunication goes even higher.

Ignorance is Bliss I guess.

Delete this thread. Why? Because you don't want your view challenged. So by simply ignoring the issue you wish it to go away I assume? Hmm, real good forward thinking there pal, pat yourself on the back.

My argument is simple, if you don't dress like trouble, trouble won't come and find you. Plus this thread isn't about the victims fault all the time, it's if there are circumstances where the victim deserves some blame, and my opinion is yes.

First impressions are a big thing in life, and if you dress like a call girl, chances are that is going to be engraved into someones head that you are what you dress like. People going out to bars looking for casual or forced sex are looking at image, and pretty much if you dress invitingly, you're inviting trouble. Would I do something like that, of course not.

Rape is a big broad word that covers a lot, including date rape. Date Rape is a prime example of both parties sharing blame.

 

[Shocky]

What about the date rate drug? Is that both parties sharing blame?

No of course not, but you're also going to the furthest extreme to prove your point. I'm not here to support rape and rapist, I'm saying that there are certain circumstances where both parties have to share some sort of blame, like I said in my first post.

Two adults going out and drinking and sleeping with each other because both were intoxicated out of their mind, but the one wakes up the next day and feels violated, and then decides to play the rape card bugs the shit out of me, and I think it should bug the shit out of every male, especially on college campuses, that women can get away with something like this because their pride was hurt.

 

[MisterRob]

I'm not going to the furthest extreme at all. You are. Do you think most cases of date rape are actually two concensual adults going out, getting drunk, and then the woman calling rape the next morning because she "changed her mind"? Or do you think that's just your "extreme" circumstance? Because if you think otherwise, then that's why I call you ignorant.

In some cases, "date rape drugs" such as GHB[1], flunitrazepam[2], temazepam[3], midazolam[4], and ketamine[5] may be used to neutralize resistance or render the victim unconscious. Such drugs will usually also affect memory of the event. Alcohol remains the drug most frequently implicated in substance-assisted sexual assault. Memory loss of the event can lead to an inability to later prosecute as the victim will not remember the exact circumstances of the attack. As such, date rape is difficult to prove in most judicial systems.

If the woman is drunk and unable to make a clear, proper decision in her state of mind, or is too drunk to stop a guy from physically having sex with them.. then how is that consensual? Unless the woman agrees, verbally or otherwise, then it's not consensual, sorry to tell you. If a woman is passed out drunk, or in a daze and out of her mind, and you sleep with her, then that's not consensual. And if it's not consensual, then what is it?

The term "date rape" refers to the non-consensual sexual activity between people who are known to each other either platonically or sexually. These particular instances of sexual assault take place during a social interaction between the rapist and the victim, hence the name date rape. It may be either planned or spontaneous.

 

[Monkey_Mania]

I think that rape is never the victims fault. Sure they may dress a provactative way to send some wrong signals but that should never lead to rape. The people that rape others just have real deep psychological issues and they need help. Others are just bad people. I dont see how anyone can say its the victims fault. Thats either ignorant or just plain stupid.

 

[Shocky]

I think that rape is never the victims fault. Sure they may dress a provactative way to send some wrong signals but that should never lead to rape. The people that rape others just have real deep psychological issues and they need help. Others are just bad people. I dont see how anyone can say its the victims fault. Thats either ignorant or just plain stupid.

Monkey your a 21 year old guy so I think this would effect you as much as the next guy.

Your out, friday or saturday, hell whatever day it is. You go out, have a few drinks, start dancing and hitting on an attractive chick at the bar. You have one, two a keg worth of drinks between the two of you.

Next thing you know, you're waking up the next morning with a strange chick next to you, and she is waking up next to an equally strange guy next to her. Chances are, if she says rape, your ass is going to be in big trouble because it will come down to he said she said stuff. Do you think it's right that you are being accused of rape for something as silly as that?

I only bring this scenario up because a buddy from high school got fucked over in a situation like this and it still to this day bugs the holy hell out of me.

 

[Monkey_Mania]

Monkey your a 21 year old guy so I think this would effect you as much as the next guy.

Your out, friday or saturday, hell whatever day it is. You go out, have a few drinks, start dancing and hitting on an attractive chick at the bar. You have one, two a keg worth of drinks between the two of you.

Next thing you know, you're waking up the next morning with a strange chick next to you, and she is waking up next to an equally strange guy next to her. Chances are, if she says rape, your ass is going to be in big trouble because it will come down to he said she said stuff. Do you think it's right that you are being accused of rape for something as silly as that?

I only bring this scenario up because a buddy from high school got fucked over in a situation like this and it still to this day bugs the holy hell out of me.

Ah. You make a very good point. No I don't think its right and now I can see the other side of this arguement. I honestly would be very pissed. No I dont think its right. We were both at fault for going out drinking. The worst part is if this did happen and we went to court, my ass would be in prison. I guess I never thought of it that way. Very good agument Shocky. I really am stinned at what to say because If that happened all I do know is that I would be pissed. WOW. Never thought of it that way.

 

[FoleyIsGod]

Monkey your a 21 year old guy so I think this would effect you as much as the next guy.

Your out, friday or saturday, hell whatever day it is. You go out, have a few drinks, start dancing and hitting on an attractive chick at the bar. You have one, two a keg worth of drinks between the two of you.

Next thing you know, you're waking up the next morning with a strange chick next to you, and she is waking up next to an equally strange guy next to her. Chances are, if she says rape, your ass is going to be in big trouble because it will come down to he said she said stuff. Do you think it's right that you are being accused of rape for something as silly as that?

I only bring this scenario up because a buddy from high school got fucked over in a situation like this and it still to this day bugs the holy hell out of me.

That is quite true. Its worse over ehre ebcause we have a hell of a lot of young women drinking insane amounts of alcohol, then fall out of nightclubs pissed as a fart.

Sometimes they have guys they just met on thier arm, so if the poor guy gets laid, she could always cry rape. Or if they are really bitchy and you say you dont want a relationship, they can also cry rape.

I have a tendancy to stay away from women I meet in pubs, that way, I dont accused of anything!

 

[HBK-aholic]

I'm going to be apart of the minority on this one. Hell yes the victims in some situation have as much blame as the person involved.

John Travolta said it best in Face/Off, if you dress like Halloween, ghouls will try to get into your pants. Don't dress like a ****, or don't dress like you're easy, and guys won't get that impression that you are that type of girl. There is a difference between dressing provocatively, and dressing like a tramp. If you chose to dress, and act like a tramp, beware the consequences.

No way. I can at least understand where you're coming from with the whole 'drunk' thing, but a womans to blame because of the clothes she wears? That's complete bullshit. Some men walk around with no top on and just shorts, are they asking to be raped as well?

If it's hot, or she's on a night out with friends, why should she purposely cover up her body? If she wants to wear a tight top or short skirt, hello? She can do that. She should be able to do so without the threat of being blamed for rape. Rape is no ones fault but the sick perverts that do it. I for one won't 'accept' rape by making sure I have every bit of my body covered up.

Plus you get into situations like "Date Rape", which in my opinion is the dumbest law I have ever heard. You wake up the next day and realize, oh shit, I was drunk out of my ass and had sex with someone I didn't want to have sex with, I was date raped, I'm going to put you in jail. That's some bullshit if I've ever heard of it.

Yeah, that's not quite date rape. If two people sleep together and then she regrets it in the morning and decides to shout rape, she wasn't raped. she's just completely sick for lying about such a thing.

If she's been drugged in order to be out of conciousness so he can sleep with her, yes she has been raped. She could not give her consent. Same for if a guy has sex with her when she's so drunk she's knocked out. That's also rape. Why? Because she didn't consent to it.

 

[HBK-aholic]

What does annoy me though, is the way some girls are willing to lie about being raped just to get attention or money.
I'm talking specifically about the young Manchester Utd footballer who was accused of such a terrible offence. Now im not 100% certain of the facts, but to me it sounds like the poor boy has been used, and his career nearly ruined, just because some girl had it in her mind that if she had sex with a Manchester Utd player, and then accused him of rape, it would mean $£$£$ for her.

As for the situation where women lie about being raped to get money, that's just wrong and no-one should ever have the right to screw with people's lives in that way. accusing someone of rape in the wrong is just as bad as being a rapist in my eyes

I completely agree with both of you here. The people that lie about rape comepletely sicken me. They're no worse than rapists at the end of the day. People lying about rape is the reason so many people do not speak up about it, or why so many people are accused of lying when they are in fact telling the truth.

It's so much harder on the victim nowdays than it is on the rapist. The victim is the one treated like they have done wrong, whereas the rapist is treated as if he's been falsely accused. It's complete bullshit. And the reason why it's like this? Because some ignorant ****s have wanted money or attetion so have lied about it happening to them.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Monkey your a 21 year old guy so I think this would effect you as much as the next guy.

Your out, friday or saturday, hell whatever day it is. You go out, have a few drinks, start dancing and hitting on an attractive chick at the bar. You have one, two a keg worth of drinks between the two of you.

Next thing you know, you're waking up the next morning with a strange chick next to you, and she is waking up next to an equally strange guy next to her. Chances are, if she says rape, your ass is going to be in big trouble because it will come down to he said she said stuff. Do you think it's right that you are being accused of rape for something as silly as that?

I only bring this scenario up because a buddy from high school got fucked over in a situation like this and it still to this day bugs the holy hell out of me.

As I said before, this ISN'T rape. Suddenly deciding you regret sleeping with someone after giving consent the night before isn't rape, it's stupidity. You made the decision, you live ith it and move on. It's girls who have done this that give you the opinion you have, Shocky. But this isn't the victims fault, simply because their was no crime. These are the type of girls that need to be shot.

Obviously, if she didn't give consent then it is rape, but changing your mind afterwards constitutes rape in no way.

 

[dirtyshubb]

I have always thought that in certain examples the "victim" should shoulder some of the blame, no offence but what the fuck do you think could happen if you dress like a ****, no you dont have to dress up in a potato sack but have some shame and dont just have it all hanging out or you will draw the undesirables towards you.


I think Dave Chappell said it best: "Its like if i were to dress up as a policeman and get offended when someone comes running to me for help, you dress in the uniform and people will think thats what you are."

But of course it isnt always like this and most women dont do anything to attract the asault and when thats the case its disgusting.

Also the example Shocky gave is like when you have girls who when about to have sex say they dont want to but give in after the guy convinces here but the next day decide that they were taken advantage of, my GF calls this the afterthought and neither of us can stand girls who are like this, they didnt force you to you just gave in and then thought about it "hmm actually i didnt want to do that so that means he took advantage of me", those girls give the rest of women a bad name.

 

[HBK-aholic]

I have always thought that in certain examples the "victim" should shoulder some of the blame, no offence but what the fuck do you think could happen if you dress like a ****, no you dont have to dress up in a potato sack but have some shame and dont just have it all hanging out or you will draw the undesirables towards you.

No. I don't see how people can say she's partially at blame for wearing what she wants to. Even if she's walking around with nothing but a bra and pants on, that is NO excuse tor ape her. All this does it make rape seem okay. "Well she was dressed in revealing clothes so I thought I should rape her". What has this world come to?

I think Dave Chappell said it best: "Its like if i were to dress up as a policeman and get offended when someone comes running to me for help, you dress in the uniform and people will think thats what you are."

Yeah, so obviously if I wear a low cut top it means I should expect to be raped.

Also the example Shocky gave is like when you have girls who when about to have sex say they dont want to but give in after the guy convinces here but the next day decide that they were taken advantage of, my GF calls this the afterthought and neither of us can stand girls who are like this, they didnt force you to you just gave in and then thought about it "hmm actually i didnt want to do that so that means he took advantage of me", those girls give the rest of women a bad name.

Yeah they do give women a bad name. But as I said, those women haven't been raped.

 

[dirtyshubb]

Dont get me wrong rape is never right and should be punished as strongly as possible but you have to realise that if you dress like a **** than you will get people coming after you and sometimes these things will happen.

Now like i said rape is NEVER acceptable but just as people say these rapist should have self control and just accept that a women isnt interested the same could be said for the sort of women these days who do go out dressed in barely anything and then get beyond drunk just for the sake of it, of course something is gonna happen eventually if you act like this.

Its just these days people are so obbsessed with "If i want to do (whatever) than i can because its my RIGHT" that they either forget or dont realise that maybe they shouldnt be doing what they are doing and that they should accept that you CANT do everything you want because it either effects other people badly or could put yourself in risk.

I mean for example in the Victorian days lets say a woman couldnt really go out unless they were fully dressed because they would be considered a **** and of course over time its become acceptable to wear less and less but how far does this go, until we have people walking around naked saying "its my right to wear what i want (i.e nothing)", there has to be a point were it stops or things are just gonna get worse and worse.

 

[Shocky]

I think this is where you and I disagree. You can't sway me from my view of thinking that your image sends out a huge impression of what people think you are. If you dress like a tramp, you're inviting trouble. There's nothing wrong with semi revealing relaxing clothes, but modesty has to be an issue.

If you go out dressing like that, you're asking for trouble. And the problem is, you've had a generation of young girls that have been influenced by people like Spears and think it's okay to go out looking like that. Again, rape isn't right, but when you look like that, you're inviting big time trouble.

It's no different then a black guy dressed like a rapper decked out in Fubu gear getting pulled over all the time either. It's the image. If you want to look like a rapper or thug, the police are going to treat you in kind, and I have no problem with this. Likewise with white guys going around in wife beaters looking like white trash or dressing up like Wiggers. Your image is the first impression people make of you, and if you dress like a stereotype, then you shoulder the blame.

 

[dirtyshubb]

Thats exaclty my point, there is nothing wrong with wearing something a little revealing but most women who go out to clubs these days are going too far with their lack of medesty and their out of control drinking.

Lets be honest like you said girls these days have been brought up on 'women' like Spears, Christina, the Spice Girls were a huge part of this problem, if it wasnt for them the uk's problem with underage girls getting so drunk that they are passing out on the streets wouldnt be anywhere near this bad.

There is nothing wrong with having fun but damn some people just are not willing to take responsibilty for their actions and then they wonder why shit like this can happen to people.