Actually my argument for Warrior had multiple points with just one of those being the fact when he was the Ultimate Warrior he never submitted. The other aspects are the fact that he almost never lost period and he was the exact kind of superstar that Flair was known to put over. Flair had a losing record against both Sting and Hogan who are the closest comparisons you can find to Warrior. I also brought up the fact that Warrior not using submissions a lot doesn't mean he couldn't use one to win if need be. He has used a bear hug multiple times and could easily use a torture rack, sleeper, etc. The figure four would not make Warrior give up especially considering the fact that he can lay flat on the mat to alleviate the pressure and not have to worry about having his shoulders pinned.
Int'l Region, Third Round, Ult. Submission Match:(1)Ric Flair vs.(9)Ultimate Warrior
- Thread starter klunderbunker
- Start date
Actually my argument for Warrior had multiple points with just one of those being the fact when he was the Ultimate Warrior he never submitted. The other aspects are the fact that he almost never lost period and he was the exact kind of superstar that Flair was known to put over. Flair had a losing record against both Sting and Hogan who are the closest comparisons you can find to Warrior. I also brought up the fact that Warrior not using submissions a lot doesn't mean he couldn't use one to win if need be. He has used a bear hug multiple times and could easily use a torture rack, sleeper, etc. The figure four would not make Warrior give up especially considering the fact that he can lay flat on the mat to alleviate the pressure and not have to worry about having his shoulders pinned.
MrMojoRisin
Championship Contender
Rebutted. Can someone please look at my Jake Roberts example and ask if that would have any bearing whatsoever in this match?
Sting would be the closer one... and it took YEARS for Sting to finally beat Flair. He was always a step ahead of the Stinger until he finally wasn't. Sting was also the better Blade Runner, and far more versatile and talented.
A closer comparison style wise would actually be Nikita Koloff, who was basically a less hyper Ultimate Warrior inside the ring. Koloff couldn't beat Flair.
This is where things fall apart. Flair can't make Warrior submit because he never did it... but Warrior can use moves he never once used before to submit Flair with ease?
The only move Warrior used was the bear hug... and someone like Flair is not submitting to a bear hug. As much as Naitch liked to put people over, even he had his limits.
Already been mentioned how he could use that hold... and that it was hardly the only move he could use.
Savior of Silence
Occasional Pre-Show
This was my exact reasoning for voting Flair and I sincerely have no idea how Warrior is in the lead right now.
Pay Per Ghost
What they f*ck happened in the thread section here
You are assuming over ONE submission win. Its pretty clear that Warrior has never submitted, and really if Cena can break out a submission in one night (the masterlock challenge) and add to his repertoire why can't Warrior?
This is blatant favortism on the part of people who think it is demeaning for Flair to lose to Warrior where as Flair has lost to big muscle bound faces (see Sting and Hogan) in the big matches.
Yes this is the 3rd round but it is also a knockout tourney, what is the logic for that?
This is blatant favortism on the part of people who think it is demeaning for Flair to lose to Warrior where as Flair has lost to big muscle bound faces (see Sting and Hogan) in the big matches.
Yes this is the 3rd round but it is also a knockout tourney, what is the logic for that?
Right. So one of the main arguments against Warrior is that he never made anyone submit, and that at some point in the 80s Kevin von Erich might have made him submit, despite there being zero evidence.
Here's the Warrior making someone submit.
http://www.wwe.com/videos/ultimate-warrior-vs-bobby-heenan-weasel-suit-match-june-25-1988-25057356
I don't care that its Bobby Heenan, its still actual evidence of Warrior actually winning by submission, as opposed to the total lack of evidence of him ever losing that way.
Next idea is that Warrior has horrible cardio - whilst I admire and respect using the fact that a guy died of a heart attack against him in a fictitious wrestling tournament as a classy gesture, it is unfortunately also dead wrong.
Warrior never tired, he won most of his matches quickly because he was good. When he needed to go long, he could and did. The match against Hogan at WrestleMania VI was the second longest main event at any WrestleMania from I-XV, only Michaels vs Hart was longer. Warrior still won. In fact his matches at WrestleMania Vi and VII were the longest and second longest of all of the first 11 WrestleManias. He won them both. By comparison, Flair's WrestleMania match in that era was two minutes shorter and he lost. To Randy Savage. The same Randy Savage that Warrior beat in the second longest match in the first 11 WrestleManias.
The only two coherent arguments against Warrior have been:-
1) That he can't use submission holds. We've seen that's wrong.
2) That he has no stamina. Again, we've seen that's wrong.
The rest are not worth my time - 'Ultimate Warrior was like Koloff'. Well he wasn't was he? By the time of their main feud, Koloff had lost a lot of muscle mass. His initial bouts were standing in for Magnum TA, rather than riding the crest of a wave of momentum like Warrior was. Even so did Flair ever beat Koloff by submission? Didn't he usually lose by DQ or get a double count out?
Here's the Warrior making someone submit.
http://www.wwe.com/videos/ultimate-warrior-vs-bobby-heenan-weasel-suit-match-june-25-1988-25057356
I don't care that its Bobby Heenan, its still actual evidence of Warrior actually winning by submission, as opposed to the total lack of evidence of him ever losing that way.
Next idea is that Warrior has horrible cardio - whilst I admire and respect using the fact that a guy died of a heart attack against him in a fictitious wrestling tournament as a classy gesture, it is unfortunately also dead wrong.
Warrior never tired, he won most of his matches quickly because he was good. When he needed to go long, he could and did. The match against Hogan at WrestleMania VI was the second longest main event at any WrestleMania from I-XV, only Michaels vs Hart was longer. Warrior still won. In fact his matches at WrestleMania Vi and VII were the longest and second longest of all of the first 11 WrestleManias. He won them both. By comparison, Flair's WrestleMania match in that era was two minutes shorter and he lost. To Randy Savage. The same Randy Savage that Warrior beat in the second longest match in the first 11 WrestleManias.
The only two coherent arguments against Warrior have been:-
1) That he can't use submission holds. We've seen that's wrong.
2) That he has no stamina. Again, we've seen that's wrong.
The rest are not worth my time - 'Ultimate Warrior was like Koloff'. Well he wasn't was he? By the time of their main feud, Koloff had lost a lot of muscle mass. His initial bouts were standing in for Magnum TA, rather than riding the crest of a wave of momentum like Warrior was. Even so did Flair ever beat Koloff by submission? Didn't he usually lose by DQ or get a double count out?
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
Regarding the Warrior submitting to Kevin Von Erich, I'd like to remind you that that would have been in the very beginning of his career. If your best argument is that Flair might possibly be able to make a rookie without what made him famous submit, you need far better answers than that. This tournament has always been around the best years of their career, and the WCCW years aren't Warrior's best.
MrMojoRisin
Championship Contender
No, I've laid out logical reasoning why Flair would win this match, and poked a hole into this whole "it's impossible to make Warrior submit" theme that his supporters are clinging to.
THAT's the assumption here. Assuming that Warrior would never submit. As I've said. That wasn't his gimmick. Sure he didn't lose by submission in the WWF, but how often did the possibility even come up? Do I have some type of memory block and the Warrior was billed as a machine who would never submit? That his opponents all tried and failed every single time? That it really was impossible? Or it was just something that wasn't attempted?
You're assuming too that he would break out a new submission like your Cena/Masters example. To flip that, what's to say that he wouldn't... or couldn't. Cena looks like the man of a thousand holds in the ring compared to the Warrior. The guy was that limited inside the ring.
It's funny you're screaming 'blatant favoritism at me, when I've at least been logical about how this match would play out. From where I'm sitting, that's what this whole Warrior push looks like to me.
MrMojoRisin
Championship Contender
I can just imagine the reactions I got if I used the example of Flair making a manager tap out to prove my argument. Weak. Very weak.
Wow. Not even close to where I was going with that. Low class dude. Low class.
OK, well we've determined you don't know what you're talking about.
It's very common knowledge that the Warrior would blow up quickly into his matches on most nights.
Yeah he had a few longish matches... but did you honestly just try to say that Warrior could go longer than Flair?
Flair?
No it's not. He didn't use submissions. Didn't have them in his repertoire. Didn't win with them. And if we're clinging to this 'he can't submit' theme because he didn't submit in the WWF, then in fairness we also have to accept that there's no evidence he could make anyone who wasn't a freaking manager submit based on his WWF performance.
And he didn't have stamina. Sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming 'lalalala' doesn't change that.
This entire response hasn't been worth my time, so we're even.
Koloff is a pretty fair comparison, and I'm not the first guy to ever make it. The example was only made to disprove the theme that Flair existed to lose to guys like Warrior... when he didn't.
MrMojoRisin
Championship Contender
I've given far better answers than that. To date, no one has yet to actually try rebutting them beyond this whole "Warrior wouldn't submit" theme, which you know better than anyone is bullshit (even if you started it).
I just used the KVE possibility to disprove that so we could move this discussion forward.
Besides, if we're going around the best years of someone's career exclusively... then we should bear in mind that Flair's peak (early/mid 80's), is when he would win the most by submission. I haven't seen a lot of that reasoning in this thread. Hell, the last guy just tried saying that Flair couldn't go as long as the Warrior because he had a shorter Wrestlemania match when he was in his mid 40's. Flair's peak, he was going 60 minutes a night several times a week.
But I'll play along. Warrior didn't submit. Fine. How often did he get put in a position where it was even a possibility? Not talking about someone using a rest hold so he could do the dramatic raise the arm on the third drop spot... but a legitimate, this is my finisher, it makes everyone quit, Warrior is unstoppable though and powers out of it because he can't be made to submit possibility?
I mean, if this is what we're judging this match on in favor of the Warrior... there has to be TONNES of examples of this, right?
Or is it that he didn't submit because his opponents didn't try using submissions on him?
And of course, this still doesn't answer my other concerns about how a guy known to blow up bad in his matches could last 30 minutes with a guy like Flair without having his willpower sapped to the point that he would be more susceptible to submissions.
You said he can't use a submission hold, I showed you him using one. It doesn't matter who it is against, obviously Flair wouldn't tap out as quickly as Heenan, but it doesn't negate the fact that there he is, doing something you said he never do.
It's a very common assumption because he came roaring out of the blocks. When did Warrior ever lose a match because he was tired. Yet again, no evidence.
No, I didn't once say that. I said the idea that he couldn't go for a long time is wrong. Again the evidence is that he did that. Lots of his big matches were long. There is no evidence of him tiring and losing.
I have evidence of him using submission moves. You have no evidence of him tapping out.
Again, I can show you him having the longest matches on the card, you have no evidence of him blowing out and losing except this perceived knowledge.
Koloff was a Russian heel for most of his career. He turned face because the guy he was feuding with nearly died and they needed an alternative. I haven't said that Flair existed to lose to guys like that, so I'll let the people that said that address it.
In short this can be summed up as following. There is admittedly little evidence of Warrior using submission holds, but it exists. There is quite a lot of evidence of him being able to wrestle for over 20 minutes and this is a 30 minute match. There is an idea that is basically received wisdom that Warrior gets tired but there used to be received wisdom that the moon was eaten by a dragon once a month. Doesn't mean it's right. There is no evidence that Warrior has ever tapped out. Unless you actually have any of this evidence, we've clearly reached an impasse.
MrMojoRisin
Championship Contender
There you go I guess. Excellent proof that since he could put a manager to sleep, he could obviously do the same to one of the greatest wrestlers to ever live.
Question though. How many times did Ric Flair lose to the sleeper?
I see we're 150% kayfabe with you, right?
It's common knowledge based on what his peers have said about him. People who actually were in the ring with him, and had to cover for the fact that he would be blown up to keep him looking strong.
It's absolutely what you insinuated when you even tried comparing the two in this regard and coming out favorably for the Warrior.
There's plenty of evidence too. Again, what his peers have said... and just watching with a critical eye. It's not to hard to see that this was something the man struggled with.
Haha.
Hahahaha
Fair enough. Since it was never addressed to you specifically, why even bring yourself into that then?
So we can sum it up like this.
He put a sleeper on a manager once.
His peers have repeatedly talked about how his stamina in the ring wasn't great and that they would have to hide this for him.
You like using odd analogies.
You haven't made a single response to any of the points I've made about how Flair is more suited to this match.
No one's been able to say why the Ultimate Warrior never submitted, or acknowledge how often he was in a situation where it was a possibility.
And using a sleeper on Bobby Heenan is obviously all the proof necessary to say that the Ultimate Warrior could survive 30 minutes against Ric Flair while still getting the most submissions.
Yeah, I think we're at an impasse.
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
He doesn't submit. I don't know why this is so complicated for you to understand.
Good for Flair that he won by submission and wrestled a long time in there. It still doesn't change Warrior's submission habits. All you've done so far is praise Flair. I've still yet to see a way he stops Warrior.
So after all those years of people like Savage and Hogan not submitting to Flair, a guy of similar stature is just supposed to because THIS TIME FOR SURE the Figure Four will work on someone like that? You think like Flair does.
Of Warrior winning by submission? As was posted earlier, there's the Heenan match. As for Warrior submitting, I'm still waiting for an answer.
Therefore, Flair - 0, Warrior - 1
I'm thinking more along the lines of they weren't able to try.
I'd point you to Wrestlemania VII. Randy Savage is one of the most high energy guys in wrestling history. At the end of a 20 minute match, Warrior was running around the ring and hitting flying tackles so hard that they sent Savage to the floor. Imagine what he could do to Flair.
Yeah Flair is a great wrestler. However, the odds are completely stacked against him here.
MrMojoRisin
Championship Contender
This is actually disappointing. Of you, I expected more of a response.
One thing you address though that I'd like to point out
This does poke a hole into the "Warrior would never submit" theory. I ask if he just didn't submit because people didn't try using submissions, and you respond basically agreeing with that (changing didn't to weren't).
So by your admission, we don't really know that the Warrior wouldn't submit. Just that he wasn't put into the situation where he would have to that often (whether because opponents didn't try, or couldn't try is inconsequential, which I'll explain next).
However, in an "Ultimate Submission" match... do we really think that the booking would be so horrendous that one of the participants wouldn't be put into that situation? Often? Or in kayfabe, that one of the smartest wrestlers in the business, who always found a way to come out on top regardless of the situation, wouldn't be able in 30 minutes to find a way to put him in that situation like never before?
You also seem to be too hung up on the figure four, and using examples like Hogan or Savage (who never fought a match like this with Flair).
Flair had more he could use than just that one hold.
Also in a standard match... no, no one's booking a Hogan or Savage to lose to the figure four. In a match that's all about submissions and who can get the most? Absolutely that can and would change.
I've already said how I see this match playing out.
Flair takes advantage of the no dq stip to weaken the Warriors legs through illegal means. Warrior fights valiantly, but submits half way through in the hopes that he can comeback. Warrior goes on the offense after, Flair goes on the run, and with his superior stamina is able to keep ahead of Warrior until near the end. Warrior locks in a submission, and Flair taps just after the bell rings. Flair wins, Warrior looks strong.
Actually lose via submission? I don't know. Have I seen Roddy Piper knock him out with it? Absolutely. He even does it during Ric Flair's most notable matches, the 1992 Royal Rumble, despite the fact Jake Roberts breaks the hold before Piper wanted to.
You can look at this two ways. Either a) it's a legit fight, in which case a man of Flair's stature and no serious legitimate credentials has literally no chance in hell of getting a submission move on someone the size of Warrior or b) it's kayfabe and there's never been any issue of the Warrior losing because of tiredness.
I don't care which you pick.
That's absolutely not what I insinuated. The point I was making was that Flair lost to a guy Warrior beat at roughly the same time in the same company, although perhaps that wasn't clear to you, for which I can only apologise. Flair can wrestle all the 60 minute draws he likes, this match is 30 minutes long and well within Warrior's capacity - that my point.
What wrestlers deal with 'behind the scenes' and what is allowed to affect their performance in it are two very different things. Flair was in a plane crash in the 70s and that meant he went virtually his whole career without lifting anyone. It was literally never mentioned on TV, so wasn't identified as a weakness.
Jim Hellwig may have struggled to get up the stairs, but it's irrelevant because the Ultimate Warrior character was never shown to have this weakness. I still haven't seen any evidence of any of his peers saying this, but if they did, this is what I'd have said in response to that.
I'd just like to point out that what other wrestlers say about a guy is often poisoned by personal opinion. For that I present Exhibit A, Bret Hart on Ric Flair:-
http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/columns/news/brethartonflair.html
On to more general points...
Is Flair more suited to this kind of match?
Its 30 minutes, an amount of time that Warrior could wrestle for. So I don't really think that is the area we should focus on - the submission is far more interesting.
He has a submission finisher, sure, but is there a more high profile star that has submitted in a higher percentage of matches? So I guess the question becomes, which is more likely to happen over the course of 30 minutes? Warrior puts a sleeper or some other basic hold on for long enough to win, or Warrior submits, having never done so before?
That's the stipulation aspect. Flair was certainly successful for longer, but even at his absolute peak never drew the numbers to television or PPV like Warrior did. More people watched Warrior on one episode Saturday Night Main Event than would watch Flair in two or three Clash of the Champions combined. I'll be the first to say I am firmly in the Bret Hart camp when it comes to the appreciation of Ric Flair, but I genuinely believe that Warrior was a bigger star, more charismatic and would win this match.
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
I see no rebuttals so I'll call that a combination of a cop out from you/some scores for me.
No. Actually I responded that people weren't able to try them on him. In other words, his offense is good enough to prevent opponents from getting him in that much trouble. If you want to say that means he'd give up as soon as he was in one, I'm going to call that another cop out because if you think that's how a wrestler like Warrior would be respond, you really, really don't get wrestling.
I'm going to go with the two word response of "common sense" here.
Flair.......smart? SERIOUSLY?
The guy spent twenty plus years trying the exact same things (chopping Sting, figure fouring Hogan, going to the top rope) with an average success rate of maybe half a percent. That's not smart, but rather really, really stupid. How many times did he come out on top of Hogan? Two or three I believe? Compared to roughly 8000 losses? How many of those were by submission again?
And those would be........?
Please.....I beg of you, tell me how Savage and Hogan are totally different than Warrior. PLEASE explain that to me. I could use a good laugh today.
While Warrior just extends his legs and reads the paper right?
I'm going to sum this up very simply:
You're really, really bad at this and have next to no idea what you're talking about. Basically your argument comes down to "this never happened so you can't prove that!" That's about as lame and pitiful of an argument that there is, but hey, maybe it will work if you never try it because stranger things have happened right?
Pay Per Ghost
What they f*ck happened in the thread section here
How the FUCK do you let someone get beaten in a submission match when they have NEVER submitted in their careers. You can count their losses on on your fingers LITERALLY! Fuck's sake people. And his opponent is someone who has a bad rep in matches against the top muscly babyfaces of the era.
Warrior should be the unanimous winner here.
Warrior should be the unanimous winner here.
George Steele's Barber
Advertise Here $9.95/month
Thanks kb, I think you went a little harsh on PG but it is probably the only way he will learn.
Warrior had a great prime but I can't ignore the rest of his lack of career. The fact that Flair is synonymous with the Figure Four and Warrior is not known for submissions is just icing on the cake. I can't see the Warrior systematically putting together an offense that focuses on weakening a certain part of the body to the point that he could slap on a convincing submission.
Ignoring Tastycles awful arguments in this thread, English fans are too smart to buy the idea of Warrior submitting Flair. If you vote for Warrior, you clearly have a low opinion of English people.
JJYanks121
The Mouth of the South Shore
Wouldn't it be more likely, using KBs descriptions of the wrestlers in question, that Warrior slaps on a simple submission early and Flair taps thinking "I'm Ric Flair, I'll come back and win!" Only to spend the rest of the match failing to get Warrior to submit? That's how this match plays out in my head. It's ultimate submission so you tap quickly early if you're a heel and as stated, flair was nothing if not overconfident. He'd submit to preserve energy, figuring he'd come back later as he submissions expert and get Warrior. He'd fail, but that's what he'd think.
I'm also baffled hoe someone could argue that Warrior would be "blown up" based on he word of wrestlers he can't prove over ACTUALLY WATCHING MATCHES.
I'm also baffled hoe someone could argue that Warrior would be "blown up" based on he word of wrestlers he can't prove over ACTUALLY WATCHING MATCHES.
1) I haven't really made any arguments, except in my very first post. Since then I've been providing evidence to counter untrue things that people have said, and asked for evidence to support things I can't prove the contrary of, none of which has been provided.
2) I'm not English, so your insult doesn't really work. Nice try though, it nearly made sense.
3) English fans, particularly Leeds fans, used to cheer for a fat bloke in his 50s with about 30 seconds of offence in him.
4) If we're going to go location, fuck knows why we would, I'm going to tell you a story. My mate used to be a bar man in Leeds and saw a bloke in an Ultimate Warrior costume shit his pants. That situation developed because people in Leeds know who the Ultimate Warrior is and like him enough to dress up like him.
MrMojoRisin
Championship Contender
Well it's true. You do learn something every day. Today I learned that the boards 'expert' gets real personal when his opinion is challenged.
I'd respond in kind, but something tells me if I did, I'd end up in the prison. So I'll rise above.
Nope. You just had to keep reading.
That actually isn't what I said at all.
My challenge to this "Warrior wouldn't quit" theme is that he rarely ever was put in a situation where that was tested. You agreed with that... you just have different reasoning as to why.
I never once said that he'd give up as soon as he got into trouble. Please do not put words into my mouth to make your argument.
And I hate to break it to you... but my understanding of wrestling is just fine, and quite a few people around here tend to agree with that.
So common sense is that he obviously would never submit? Because all I said was we don't know because he was never tested that much in this regard.
I think this is where I give myself a couple points by using your cop out response.
I'm curious. Is the majority of your Flair experience from about 1990 on? Because it seems that way based off of your response here, and I've gotta say you really missed out then.
Because you're really just describing Flair from after his peak. When he was mid-40's into his late 50's, and he wasn't even close to being the same performer he was in the 80's. You yourself mentioned that we should consider all competitors here to be in their peaks. It would help if you held yourself to that same standard. Then again, it would also help your arguments if you avoided the blatant overexagurations like saying Flair had roughly 8000 losses to Hogan. I'm sure you're well aware that it was really a fraction of that.
Keeping with kayfabe though... we're talking about a guy that spent his career always finding a way to come out on top. When he got knocked down, it never lasted for long and he'd quickly find a way to return to the top. That's smart.
Indian Death Lock. Boston Crab. Half Crab. Abdominal Stretch. Sleeper.
Really. You should watch the guy in his prime. Believe it or not, he could actually do a lot.
I have to ask... are you intentionally misunderstanding everything I write? I said in the context of the actual match in question. The match that you yourself picked for these two.
In a standard match, none of the mentioned ever submit to the figure four. In an 'ultimate submission' match? Yeah that becomes a key part of the story.
You wanted me to give you a laugh? Sorry, but this is where you gave me one.
You're the expert on these forums. But you don't understand how Flair would use nefarious means to target a specific limb of his opponent to make his submission more effective? When this was a tactic Flair used in the majority of his matches?
Because if you think that what you wrote is how it would happen? Maybe I'm not the one that doesn't understand wrestling.
Well let's see.
When I started in this thread, Warrior was beating Flair about 20-10. Now he's within 2 votes of tying it up. He was further back when you wrote this to me. I've been getting green repped quite a bit in this tournament. I've been able to sway matchups into my favor in the past.
If that's being really, really bad at this? Then it sucks what you're saying about a lot of the participants here.
I'd respond in kind, but something tells me if I did, I'd end up in the prison. So I'll rise above.
Nope. You just had to keep reading.
That actually isn't what I said at all.
My challenge to this "Warrior wouldn't quit" theme is that he rarely ever was put in a situation where that was tested. You agreed with that... you just have different reasoning as to why.
I never once said that he'd give up as soon as he got into trouble. Please do not put words into my mouth to make your argument.
And I hate to break it to you... but my understanding of wrestling is just fine, and quite a few people around here tend to agree with that.
So common sense is that he obviously would never submit? Because all I said was we don't know because he was never tested that much in this regard.
I think this is where I give myself a couple points by using your cop out response.
I'm curious. Is the majority of your Flair experience from about 1990 on? Because it seems that way based off of your response here, and I've gotta say you really missed out then.
Because you're really just describing Flair from after his peak. When he was mid-40's into his late 50's, and he wasn't even close to being the same performer he was in the 80's. You yourself mentioned that we should consider all competitors here to be in their peaks. It would help if you held yourself to that same standard. Then again, it would also help your arguments if you avoided the blatant overexagurations like saying Flair had roughly 8000 losses to Hogan. I'm sure you're well aware that it was really a fraction of that.
Keeping with kayfabe though... we're talking about a guy that spent his career always finding a way to come out on top. When he got knocked down, it never lasted for long and he'd quickly find a way to return to the top. That's smart.
Indian Death Lock. Boston Crab. Half Crab. Abdominal Stretch. Sleeper.
Really. You should watch the guy in his prime. Believe it or not, he could actually do a lot.
I have to ask... are you intentionally misunderstanding everything I write? I said in the context of the actual match in question. The match that you yourself picked for these two.
In a standard match, none of the mentioned ever submit to the figure four. In an 'ultimate submission' match? Yeah that becomes a key part of the story.
You wanted me to give you a laugh? Sorry, but this is where you gave me one.
You're the expert on these forums. But you don't understand how Flair would use nefarious means to target a specific limb of his opponent to make his submission more effective? When this was a tactic Flair used in the majority of his matches?
Because if you think that what you wrote is how it would happen? Maybe I'm not the one that doesn't understand wrestling.
Well let's see.
When I started in this thread, Warrior was beating Flair about 20-10. Now he's within 2 votes of tying it up. He was further back when you wrote this to me. I've been getting green repped quite a bit in this tournament. I've been able to sway matchups into my favor in the past.
If that's being really, really bad at this? Then it sucks what you're saying about a lot of the participants here.
Richard Blonoff
Make America Rassle Again
Argument needs more Slyfox.
The voting is close so I'll throw in my written support for Flair. Sometimes you have to keep things simple. Flair is the reason the Figure Four is famous, so in an ultimate submission match, that is what trumps all for me.
I'd post more but KB doesn't think I'm worthy enough to be a super special All-Star who gets to submit a list for the tournament. I just wanna be special KB.
The voting is close so I'll throw in my written support for Flair. Sometimes you have to keep things simple. Flair is the reason the Figure Four is famous, so in an ultimate submission match, that is what trumps all for me.
I'd post more but KB doesn't think I'm worthy enough to be a super special All-Star who gets to submit a list for the tournament. I just wanna be special KB.
George Steele's Barber
Advertise Here $9.95/month
Don't be so hard on yourself.
Or maybe because there really are no good arguments supporting Warrior in this case
Sorry, I did really bad in school in telling the difference between horrible arguments and horrible evidence.
Cool, if you're not English I can fully qualify my statement without using your arguments as an exception to the rule.[
This is one of the best arguments/evidence I've heard supporting a washed up lunatic like Flair.
Why have a location at all in this tournament if it is not going to be mentioned?
Actually it is sweet irony that a guy in a Warrior costume shit himself comes up while we are talking about submitting. Shitting one's self has to be about as akin to the ultimate way to submit as possible. Can you prove that wasn't actually the Ultimate Warrior?
BTW, I was actually in a Buffalo NY suburban Marriott bar/night club and Nature Boy came in. Instead of shitting himself he has the people in the bar eating out of his hand.
Flair is a legend, he had a lengthy and prosperous career.
Warrior had a nice little prime where Vince took a shot and then gave up on the guy almost over night. The reminder of this tournament deserves better than that. May as well include Umaga if you are going to focus so much on primes.
ServantofTwilight
Pre-Show Stalwart
Savage lost the world title to Flair and his leglock.
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
Wrestlemania V.
Warrior throws Rick Rude into the buckles over and over, hits him in the back several times and then slaps on a bearhug. As Ventura said, Rude only survived because of the great core strength he had built up over the years. Warrior is smarter than people give him credit for.
FitFinlay4Life
What's the craic?
I can see Ric leading Warrior a merry dance for the majority of this match before using a foreign object of some nature to knock him out, locking in the figure four and winning 1-0 because the referee thinks Warrior has passed out. Warrior has shown weakness against outside interference in the past and there are few (if any) better at exploiting such a thing than the dirtiest player in the game.
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