Int'l Region, Third Round, Ult. Submission Match:(1)Ric Flair vs.(9)Ultimate Warrior

Who Wins This Matchup?

  • Ric Flair

  • Ultimate Warrior


Results are only viewable after voting.

klunderbunker

Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
This is a third round match in the International Region. It is an Ultimate Submission match, held at the First District Arena in Leeds, England.

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Rules: This match has a thirty minute time limit with the most submissions in the time limit winning. There are no pinfalls, countouts or submissions.

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#1. Ric Flair

Vs.

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#9. Ultimate Warrior



Polls will be open for four days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.
 
Cue the Bobby Heenan clip of him screaming yes. Flair sure got bailed out with this one, didn't he?

Even if you take out the stipulation, I probably would have voted Flair, because of the longevity as a draw and the legacy of his career. But man... Does this make even harder. I suppose you could argue Warrior was the type to never quit.

Except, of course, he quit. Twice.

But if we're talking actual matches, Warrior has never submit. But honest question...has Warrior ever applied a submission hold? I legit don't know.

What would have been really interesting seems evident now. It has to be Flair.
 
Warrior was more exciting during his run, but since the gimmick is all about Submission, I have to go with Naitch and F4LL.
 
Let's think about this for a minute.

We have someone who doesn't submit to anything vs. someone who has submitted to people like Finlay and Jay Lethal, has submitted to Sting roughly 18,000 times and has lost a World Title by submission. Warrior may not be the best submission guy in the world, but if he throws a bearhug or something similar on Flair, you could very easily hear Flair give up. If Warrior can last the rest of the match, he'd be fine.

If nothing else, what would stop Flair from submitting early, thinking he could always come back later? He may well be the most overconfident wrestler of all time with the constant running to the top rope with a success rate of about 2% or the Figure Four against top names with a slightly lower success rate. Yeah Flair is a guy who has had success with submissions, but Warrior isn't your normal opponent. This would be like Hulk Hogan submitting to the Figure Four. It may seem like something Flair should be able to do with ease, but he never could pull it off.

I'd actually go with Warrior here. The guy just doesn't submit and Flair has a very, very bad record making people like Warrior submit.
 
"Thinking" and "Wrestlezone Tournament" don't go together. Who cares if Warrior rarely ever lost. Goldberg, George Hackenschmidt, and Strangler Lewis all rarely ever lost and they're all out. Warrior was a flash in the pan. And not only was Flair a hugely popular star on his own, but he had higher longevity and was more consistent. Warrior flopped when he went to a different promotion. And while Flair may not have been the type of draw Warrior was at least he was treated like a big star wherever he went and was used accordingly.

If Warrior hasn't ever submitted then Flair will make him submit. Or KO him. I say Flair wins.
 
Does Warrior know any real sort of submission moves? Granted, I can see the argument of Warrior just tossing Flair around like a rag doll to the point that he could get a submission victory after standing on top of the battered and broken ribcage of Flair. Then again, Flair being as cunning as he is would score the first submission and then run around like a ninny until time ran out.

Idk, vote Flair because he doesn't hate gay people as vocally as Warrior did.
 
People are going to see "Ultimate Submission" and automatically vote Flair, but he would lose this match. Warrior has never submitted. Flair gave up all the time. Warrior was dominant and rarely lost. Flair is one of the greatest performers of all time but lost quite frequently to guys like Hulk Hogan and Sting who happen to be close comparisons to Warrior.

Is Warrior a submission specialist? No. Does he need to be to win this match? Fuck no. One scenario I could easily see happening in this kayfabe match is Warrior wears Flair down with his power and eventually takes him out with a bear hug or some similar power submission.

Warrior wins.
 
Despite the stipulation in this match, and I can't believe I'm saying this, Warrior would still go over.

During the Ultimate Warrior's initial and significant run he was unstoppable. To my knowledge the man has never been made to submit. Cue to Flair who has tapped out more than any other main event star I can think of. The man has tapped to Sting, Bret Hart, Jericho, Angle, Jay Lethal(I mean come on, Jay Lethal), and others. I know that we don't really think of Warrior as a submission type, however, I'm sure the man knew a few wrestling holds. Hell, Warrior might make Flair submit just by simply reversing the Figure Four, because there's no way in hell that Flair would be able to stop Warrior from over powering him. Also, there's the bear hug that we've seen Warrior use that could force Flair to submit.

I know that many want to see Flair move on, however, it's just not in the cards this time.

Vote Warrior.
 
"Thinking" and "Wrestlezone Tournament" don't go together. Who cares if Warrior rarely ever lost. Goldberg, George Hackenschmidt, and Strangler Lewis all rarely ever lost and they're all out. Warrior was a flash in the pan. And not only was Flair a hugely popular star on his own, but he had higher longevity and was more consistent. Warrior flopped when he went to a different promotion. And while Flair may not have been the type of draw Warrior was at least he was treated like a big star wherever he went and was used accordingly.

If Warrior hasn't ever submitted then Flair will make him submit. Or KO him. I say Flair wins.
I love you. Warrior was not the greatest of champions. His fights with VKM were the stories of legend. The Dirtiest Player in the Game would win this in a walk. Vote the Nature Boy, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
 
Here is what happened one day, there was a man called CHris Masters and he challenged a muscley big man called John Cena in a submission match coz Cena didnt have a submission finisher, Masters did; the Masterlock. In one night, Cena introduced a new submission, beat the yet undefeated Chris Masters (wow this sounds a lot like Rusev and Wyatt) and behold the Shut The Fuck Up!.

Now Im so sorry if y6ou think I compared Masters and Flair but the thing is, Warrior can invent a submission on the fly and take this.

So ye Warrior
 
All Warrior has to know how to do is to turn the Figure Four around. Seriously, that's it. It is the world's easiest hold to get out of, and even people who suck have done it. Warrior doesn't need to know any submissions at all, he just needs to reverse the pressure of the stupidest move in all of wrestling.

I love Flair, but hilariously, this is exactly the type of match he would lose. The deck stacked completely in his favor against a pure babyface that wears facepaint. Gotta go Warrior here, even if I like Flair WAY more.
 
The recent Rusev and Cena matches have shown that you can win by submission by choking your opponent out. That requires nothing but brute force, so Warrior could win that way. Equally, as has been mentioned, the figure four can easily be used against the person applying it.

Flair may well have won the title a lot more times, but his average reign is shorter than Warrior's title reign. I've said it before and I'll say it again:- Title reigns are for losers. Vote Warrior.
 
Let's see...

a trained technical wrestler who was one of the best of all time in his field?

or a trained body builder who would blow up within minutes of the opening bell because of his ridiculous sprint to the ring?

Flair wins a submission match easily. Why? Because once Warrior blows up he's going to have a hell of a time keeping up with the cardio king Ric Flair, who'll keep wearing him down like it's a walk in the park. The more Warrior's blown up, the more susceptible he'll be to Flair's own submissions.

Think about your own bodies and how much less fight you have in you when you're tired? That'd be Warrior times 1000 here against the guy who would wrestle for 60 minutes, drink Kamikazee's till 4am, be on the treadmill by 8am, travel 100 miles and wrestle another 60 minutes before doing it all again.

The machine takes this one even before he sweats out his blood-alcohol content.

How Warrior is winning this is beyond me? If guys just want to hijack the tournament this year for a different result, there are FAR more interesting ways to do that than going with the Ultimate Fucking Warrior.
 
How Warrior is winning this is beyond me?

Because Warrior has never ever tapped out. Flair has two major disadvantages:

1. The Figure Four is probably the easiest submission maneuver you can escape from.

2. How else can Flair win? He can't out physical Warrior. He can't beat him to submission.

The one advantage Flair has is the 30 minute time limit, but even that is only a slight advantage. Warrior has gone toe to toe with the best the business has had to offer for over 20 minutes and came out on top.

Warrior wins this match after beating Flair into submission.
 
In a submission match, I just can't give it to Warrior against someone like Ric Flair. Flair's too sneaky, too calculate and too well versed in technical & submission wrestling. Warrior's arsenal was primarily power based: punch, kick, clothesline, running shoulder block, gorilla press + splash. Guy didn't know a Figure Four Leglock from a foot long hot dog. If Flair can successfully target Warrior's leg to the point where he can't even stand, then his immense strength advantage counts for squat. Of course, I don't see Warrior tapping out or anything, but I can see him passing out from the pain and, later on, the ref just having to stop the match altogether as Warrior's leg just can't bear any weight whatsoever.
 
Because Warrior has never ever tapped out. Flair has two major disadvantages:

1. The Figure Four is probably the easiest submission maneuver you can escape from.

2. How else can Flair win? He can't out physical Warrior. He can't beat him to submission.

The one advantage Flair has is the 30 minute time limit, but even that is only a slight advantage. Warrior has gone toe to toe with the best the business has had to offer for over 20 minutes and came out on top.

Warrior wins this match after beating Flair into submission.

Don't really care that Warrior's never tapped out. Truthfully I don't even know if that's true, or just something that got said here and is getting repeated. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if he had submission losses before the WWF.

I've already detailed how Flair would win though... and don't assume that a technician like Flair only knew the figure four.

Warrior constantly blew up early in matches because of not only his entrance, but because he had bad cardio. Flair would take advantage of that, and keep him running around until he was spent. When you're physically spent like that, you simply do not have the fight in your body to withstand submissions.

Furthermore, how is Warrior making Flair submit? I've seen the Rusev, brute strength argument used... but the thing with that is, Rusev is an actual wrestler who will use wrestling holds to wear you down. Warrior... not so much. Flair isn't going to quit over a bunch of close lines.

Warrior's just out of his element here. A normal rules match? Sure I'd see giving that to the Warrior. A submission match though? This is just crying for Flair to outsmart the Warrior and walk away with the win.
 
Don't really care that Warrior's never tapped out. Truthfully I don't even know if that's true, or just something that got said here and is getting repeated. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if he had submission losses before the WWF.

He didn't have any submission losses in the WWE. He had almost no losses period.

I've already detailed how Flair would win though... and don't assume that a technician like Flair only knew the figure four.

He can know all the submissions in the world, it doesn't automatically mean he would win a submission match against a guy who has never tapped out.
Warrior constantly blew up early in matches because of not only his entrance, but because he had bad cardio. Flair would take advantage of that, and keep him running around until he was spent. When you're physically spent like that, you simply do not have the fight in your body to withstand submissions.

This match has a 30 minute time limit. Warrior went over 20 minutes at Mania 6 against Hogan and Mania 7 against Savage. He and Savage also went 28 minutes at Summerslam 92. If Warrior can hang with Savage for 28 minutes then he can go an extra 2 with Flair.

Furthermore, how is Warrior making Flair submit? I've seen the Rusev, brute strength argument used... but the thing with that is, Rusev is an actual wrestler who will use wrestling holds to wear you down. Warrior... not so much. Flair isn't going to quit over a bunch of close lines.

Bear hug, Torture rack, take your pick. Power submissions aren't hard to do and can be very effective. Warrior has used the bear hug in matches before. The torture rack is easy to use and would be effective for a guy like Warrior. Even something like the sleeper hold could work for Warrior. Flair was taken down by the sleeper against Wahoo McDaniel back in the day and that's another hold that doesn't take much to do.

Warrior's just out of his element here. A normal rules match? Sure I'd see giving that to the Warrior. A submission match though? This is just crying for Flair to outsmart the Warrior and walk away with the win.

The only time Warrior really lost in his career (not counting DQs or count outs) was by pinfall due to interference. Flair can bring interference all he wants but he still has to make Warrior give up or pass out and I don't see either happening.
 
Don't really care that Warrior's never tapped out. Truthfully I don't even know if that's true, or just something that got said here and is getting repeated. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if he had submission losses before the WWF.

He has actually NEVER tapped out. I think one of us looked it up for the tourney last year (or before that). He has literally never submitted.

Here look at his win loss record.

Lost to Hogan in that horrid Hvoc match and then to Slaughter when Savage raped his head with that sceptre and then there is the cage loss. Never submitted EVER!

http://www.profightdb.com/wrestlers/warrior-88.html
 
This is so cut and dry that I'm astonished Flair is so close in the polls. This is a match that requires your opponent so submit, in which one of the participants is a man who literally never submits. Flair can know more ways to hurt a man than the staff at Guantanamo Bay, he still wouldn't bloody win. As it is, his main weapon is the hilariously ineffective figure four leg lock.
 
He didn't have any submission losses in the WWE. He had almost no losses period.

Not what I asked though. I asked about submission losses BEFORE the WWF. And I think I found one.

http://wrestlingdata.com/index.php?befehl=shows&show=55413

It doesn't mention how he lost, but any time he lost by DQ or countout, the site mentions it. So this was likely a straight up pinfall or submission loss. And considering Kevin Von Erich's finish was a submission (Iron Claw)... it's very possible that's how he lost.


He can know all the submissions in the world, it doesn't automatically mean he would win a submission match against a guy who has never tapped out.

Oh yes it does. Let's be real. It's not like this was Warrior's gimmick. That he was the guy that never quit; never surrendered; never submitted. It's just something that never happened in the WWF. Then again, I also don't remember Jake Roberts ever submitting in the WWF either. Does that make him an unstoppable no submit machine that would be a lock in this type of match?

This match has a 30 minute time limit. Warrior went over 20 minutes at Mania 6 against Hogan and Mania 7 against Savage. He and Savage also went 28 minutes at Summerslam 92. If Warrior can hang with Savage for 28 minutes then he can go an extra 2 with Flair.

Yes and no, but let's look at this.

The match is an 'Ultimate Submission' match. Designed to go the full 30 minutes no matter what. It's also the third round of the tournament, so Warrior has fought twice already and now has to go all out for half an hour (while not having much experience in this regard) against a guy who didn't start breaking a sweat until after a half hour.

Go back and look at the link to the card I showed you earlier... which may be an Ultimate Warrior submission loss. You notice something about that show? The Von Erich loss was his 2nd match of the night. Further proving my point about his cardio being a factor and how it makes him more susceptible to submitting.


Bear hug, Torture rack, take your pick. Power submissions aren't hard to do and can be very effective. Warrior has used the bear hug in matches before. The torture rack is easy to use and would be effective for a guy like Warrior. Even something like the sleeper hold could work for Warrior. Flair was taken down by the sleeper against Wahoo McDaniel back in the day and that's another hold that doesn't take much to do.

And technical submissions are very effective for someone like Flair here... since Warrior has little to no experience defending against them.

A sleeper works great for Flair here too, especially once Warrior is winded. Flair has far more weapons he can use.


The only time Warrior really lost in his career (not counting DQs or count outs) was by pinfall due to interference. Flair can bring interference all he wants but he still has to make Warrior give up or pass out and I don't see either happening.

Funny thing about all this... is Flair can't be DQ'd. He can and will take advantage of this to help wear down Warrior. The Horsemen would easily come into play in this one.

I'll take them out of it though, and this is how I'd book it.

First I'd hype the fact that Warrior doesn't submit. I'd make that his story for the match. I'd even produce training video of him learning the "Ultimate Submission" hold to win it.

Come match time though, he would submit. Maybe around the halfway mark, I'd have Flair score the submission after several dirty hits to the knee and locking his 3rd figure four in the middle of the ring, and Warrior submitting so he could still continue and make the comeback.

Then Flair goes on the run, while Warrior goes into overdrive. Warrior finally catches up to Flair, and beats him down enough to finally catch him in the Ultimate Submission with about 30 seconds left. Flair holds on, but finally taps at 30:01, a second after the bell starts to go.

Flair wins and moves on. Warrior comes out looking strong.

I do this because in the context of the tournament itself... it makes for a better story. Flair makes the guy who doesn't quit actually quit, but just wins by the skin of his teeth. Going to the next round, he has additional heat now which helps his overall story arch. Promoting the Warrior as the guy who doesn't quit, then have him not quit... is boring. It doesn't go anywhere, or do anything going forward.

That's just how I see it. Flair should win.
 
He has actually NEVER tapped out. I think one of us looked it up for the tourney last year (or before that). He has literally never submitted.

Here look at his win loss record.

Lost to Hogan in that horrid Hvoc match and then to Slaughter when Savage raped his head with that sceptre and then there is the cage loss. Never submitted EVER!

http://www.profightdb.com/wrestlers/warrior-88.html

That's a pretty incomplete site. Try this one instead. Far more complete.

http://wrestlingdata.com/index.php?befehl=bios&wrestler=217

One thing I like about your site though, is that it tells how the win was accomplished more frequently. The funny thing about that though, is that it points out a huge flaw in this Warrior wouldn't lose because he never submitted argument.

Warrior also never made anyone submit!

Flair on the other hand, has made hundreds submit. His main finish was a submission.

Flair knows how to get someone to tap out. Warrior doesn't. He's actually never done it in his life.

Besides, as I point out above... it's not like this 'never quit' thing was Warrior's gimmick. He was a WWF face. WWF face's rarely ever quit. See my Jake Roberts example. I honestly don't ever remember him submitting in the WWF. Doesn't mean that he would be a lock in a match like this either.

Also as I mentioned above, it does look like he submitted at least once to Kevin Von Erich. It's possible he didn't... but that's how KVE won his matches, and it was a clean loss.

The Warrior just has so much working against him in this one. He doesn't have a submission. He's never made anyone submit. And he has to go a full half hour when he typically worked very short matches due to his lack of cardio... against a guy who has every single thing that he's lacking coming into the match.

He doesn't stand a chance.
 
1. You have no clue how Warrior lost to Kevin Von Erich and are just assuming.

2. It's completely irrelevant anyways because it was 1986 in WCCW and just two months after he debuted as the Dingo Warrior. It would be like me bringing up Ric Flair's AWA run when he was 300 pounds and losing to names like Reggie Parks, Chris Taylor, and Ricky Romero.
 
That's a pretty incomplete site. Try this one instead. Far more complete.

http://wrestlingdata.com/index.php?befehl=bios&wrestler=217

One thing I like about your site though, is that it tells how the win was accomplished more frequently. The funny thing about that though, is that it points out a huge flaw in this Warrior wouldn't lose because he never submitted argument.

Warrior also never made anyone submit!

Flair on the other hand, has made hundreds submit. His main finish was a submission.

Flair knows how to get someone to tap out. Warrior doesn't. He's actually never done it in his life.

Besides, as I point out above... it's not like this 'never quit' thing was Warrior's gimmick. He was a WWF face. WWF face's rarely ever quit. See my Jake Roberts example. I honestly don't ever remember him submitting in the WWF. Doesn't mean that he would be a lock in a match like this either.

Also as I mentioned above, it does look like he submitted at least once to Kevin Von Erich. It's possible he didn't... but that's how KVE won his matches, and it was a clean loss.

The Warrior just has so much working against him in this one. He doesn't have a submission. He's never made anyone submit. And he has to go a full half hour when he typically worked very short matches due to his lack of cardio... against a guy who has every single thing that he's lacking coming into the match.

He doesn't stand a chance.

You're missing one giant point....Ric Flair exists to lose to big babyfaces and Ultimate Warrior is basically as big as they come.

Keep in mind Flair lost to lesser men even in his prime because he's known to be cocky and careless. If this match were to ever exist, there is zero chance Flair would be booked to win. I honestly don't know how anyone can justify it and how the vote is so close.
 
1. You have no clue how Warrior lost to Kevin Von Erich and are just assuming.

2. It's completely irrelevant anyways because it was 1986 in WCCW and just two months after he debuted as the Dingo Warrior. It would be like me bringing up Ric Flair's AWA run when he was 300 pounds and losing to names like Reggie Parks, Chris Taylor, and Ricky Romero.

1. Thanks. I already said as much. It's an educated assumption though, because that is how Von Erich won his matches, and understanding a little of how the business works, it's logical to assume that they wanted Warrior to take the loss like that to both put the star (Von Erich) over... and to see what they had in him.

2. It's only irrelevant if you want to cling to the "Warrior wouldn't submit" mantra that seems to be literally the only thing people pushing the Warrior here have. Because if you acknowledge it's relevancy... then you have to admit that it's possible for the guy to submit, and none of you have a single thing left to put Warrior over Flair with.

Your AWA analogy for Flair doesn't really hold up though... because no one's sitting here saying that Flair never lost and it's impossible for him to be defeated. That is the damn argument for Warrior though.
 
You're missing one giant point....Ric Flair exists to lose to big babyfaces and Ultimate Warrior is basically as big as they come.

Keep in mind Flair lost to lesser men even in his prime because he's known to be cocky and careless. If this match were to ever exist, there is zero chance Flair would be booked to win. I honestly don't know how anyone can justify it and how the vote is so close.

Not really.

Besides, Flair would lose to giant babyfaces when it mattered. In the 3rd round of a (any) tournament? When there's still a lot of tournament left to go?

No, Flair didn't exist to lose like that.

If you don't know how anyone can justify it, please go back and read my posts here. I've done a pretty thorough job of doing exactly that. I'm still waiting for someone to actually justify how Warrior could win this match... beyond this ridiculous "he never submits" argument. No one's been able to give a logical argument for Warrior yet.

How exactly does a guy with horrible cardio, and zero submission experience... defeat a guy who's cardio is off the charts, and forced hundreds to submit to him... in a match where both cardio (Iron Man aspect) and submissions (submission stipulation) are what matters?

Magic?
 

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