Int Region, Fourth Round, 3 Stages Of Hell: (1) Undertaker vs. (4) Kurt Angle

[Diet Soda]

The match from Smackdown in 2002 was ruled a draw. So in big time matches (matches for titles), Kurt is 2-0-1 against the Undertaker. The only time the Undertaker ever pinned Angle was in 2000. Once Angle hit his prime, he never lost via pinfall or submission to the Undertaker.

You're right, I've just gone and re-watched the match, it was a draw, my apologies.
Nonetheless, Angle has not defeated the Undertaker by submission, technically.
As I said though, as far as clean finishes go, it's one a piece.

And if we're on the topic of "primes", can you really envision Kurt Angle, at any point in his career, defeating late '90s Undertaker?

 

[shattered dreams]

It is time someone called the Taker marks out on their convoluted nonsense.

This 3 stages of hell match might not go to the third stage. BULLSHIT

Undertaker doesn't lose big matches. BULLSHIT. He has been buried alive 3 times. He lost two different title matches to Lesnar and has never defeated him in a one on one match.

Wrestlemania nonsense. BULLSHIT. This match isn't even in the WWE region. You know who has defeated Lesnar in a title match in Tokyo? Kurt Angle.

HHH on his worst day is better than Angle on his best day. BULLSHIT. I guess that is why Angle has a winning record against HHH for his career. Just like this Taker wins easily BULLSHIT, too many marks are sticking their heads in the sand when it comes to the facts of how Angle has actually shown himself to be better than these guys in head-to-head competition.

Everyone sells the ankle lock.

 

[Coco]

So you really think that stashing Angle's brother under the ring and/or hoping that Taker will use a hold that Angle can reverse swings it in a 3 stages of hell match?

Wait, reversing a hold is somehow not a valid representation of Angle's superiority over Taker? I've seen people attempt to discredit cheap wins before (although Angle's brother will always have his back), but this is a new one. Let me make it clear in case you don't understand: Yes, Angle being superior to Taker makes him superior to Taker. Reversing a hold into a flawless victory is an example of that superiority. That's the kind of ring savvy that will lead Angle to victory. Fuck, you'd look less brain dead if you tried to argue that Angle can't climb a ladder. Really, is this what constitutes a tournament-worthy post nowadays?

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

First off, Tasty, I just can't concede Mania Taker because this isn't Wrestlemania. In fact it isn't even in the WWe.

Once again, as with Batista and Trips, I have to go with genuine history between the two and Kurt has Taker's number more often than not.

Taker to win the Streetfight and Kurt to escape the cage (making Taker appear the stronger going into the third stage). Kurt then performs his miraculous recovery spot were he normally jumps up and runs to his opponent on the top turnbuckle belly to belly suplexing them into the ring. Only, this time, he sprints up the ladder and Angle Slams Taker through a table, giving him just enough time to claim the prize for himself.

 

[Diet Soda]

Wait, reversing a hold is somehow not a valid representation of Angle's superiority over Taker? I've seen people attempt to discredit cheap wins before (although Angle's brother will always have his back), but this is a new one. Let me make it clear in case you don't understand: Yes, Angle being superior to Taker makes him superior to Taker. Reversing a hold into a flawless victory is an example of that superiority. That's the kind of ring savvy that will lead Angle to victory. Fuck, you'd look less brain dead if you tried to argue that Angle can't climb a ladder. Really, is this what constitutes a tournament-worthy post nowadays?

That's not the point I was trying to make. Go back and re-read my post.

First of all, I never said Angle reversing the hold was a cheap win, I stated it was his only clean victory over the Undertaker.

Secondly, Angle's mat skills - superior to Taker's as they are - are totally irrelevant in a ladder match, and just as insignificant in a cage if he wanted to go for an escape victory.
If this was debating an ordinary singles match, like the one at No Way Out, then Angle's technical wrestling skills would convince me otherwise. But it isn't.
Angle is starting in a street fight against the Undertaker, a brawler with more experience in such matches. Taker would have the sense not to grapple in a street fight for the plain fact that it is not a wrestling match wherein Angle has the natural advantage. He just wouldn't give Angle the time of day.

Angle needs high impact moves to win this one and we all know it keeps a hell of a lot to keep the Undertaker down.

Sorry Angle marks, but reversing a hold does not win you a 3 Stages of Hell match.

 

[Coco]

That's not the point I was trying to make. Go back and re-read my post.

First of all, I never said Angle reversing the hold was a cheap win, I stated it was his only clean victory over the Undertaker.

If the circumstances of a cheap win are readily replicable, those wins should be counted. As such, Angle's record against Taker is sterling. You're doing logic wrong. Try again, dullard.

Secondly, Angle's mat skills - superior to Taker's as they are - are totally irrelevant in a ladder match, and just as insignificant in a cage if he wanted to go for an escape victory.
If this was debating an ordinary singles match, like the one at No Way Out, then Angle's technical wrestling skills would convince me otherwise. But it isn't.
Angle is starting in a street fight against the Undertaker, a brawler with more experience in such matches. Taker would have the sense not to grapple in a street fight for the plain fact that it is not a wrestling match. He just wouldn't give Angle the time of day.

You're funny.

Taker didn't try to wrestle Angle at No Way Out. He went right for the boot. And yet he still got ploughed through a table and eventually pinned. Not only because Angle will eventually make Taker play the game he wants him to play, but because Angle's great at every game.

As for the cage and ladder matches, Angle's won plenty of them. Couple Angle's skill in these gimmick matches with his superiority over Taker, and you have the makings of an Angle win. Ta-da!

Angle needs high impact moves to win this one and we all know it keeps a hell of a lot to keep the Undertaker down.

Do flash pins count in street fights? Cool. Angle wins, just like a prime Angle always does against Taker.

Sorry Angle marks, but reversing a hold does not win you a 3 Stages of Hell match.

I hate Angle.

 

[Diet Soda]

If the circumstances of a clean win are readily replicable, those wins should be counted. As such, Angle's record against Taker is sterling.

No it's not. It's debatable. Undertaker's record at Wrestlemania can be defined as sterling. From the handful of matches Angle and Taker have, only 2 of which ended cleanly with one convincingly defeating the other, the record is nowhere near sterling.

Taker didn't try to wrestle Angle at No Way Out. He went right for the boot. And yet he still got ploughed through a table and eventually pinned. Not only because Angle will eventually make Taker play the game he wants him to play, but because Angle's great at every game.

How did Angle get into the Hell's Gate anyway? Oh yeah, Taker blocked the Ankle Lock, whilst on the mat. Don't tell me Taker didn't try to wrestle.

As for the cage and ladder matches, Angle's won plenty of them. Couple Angle's skill in these gimmick matches with his superiority over Taker, and you have the makings of an Angle win. Ta-da!

So has Taker. Moot point.

Do flash pins count in street fights? Cool. Angle wins, just like a prime Angle always does against Taker.

Are you assuming that Angle's tactic will be to get a roll-up pin in a street fight? Me too, because there's no other way that Angle can keep the Deadman down. Both times Angle has pinned the Undertaker, Taker has got straight back up.

I hate Angle.

Irrelevant. Taker still wins.

 

[nightmare]

Come on guys, Kurt has always had Takers number. This isnt that hard to see.


Angle would take a beating in the first match, but find a way to keep his distance. He would try to work on the ankle early but Taker is still to fresh. So he moves and picks his shots. Angle is no slouch and has proven to be better than taker. He gets in some offence and scores a quick fall. Now Taker is pissed and we go to the cage. Angle cant run too far and Taker decimates him for the entire fall. He ends it with a tombstone when he sees fit. The cage goes up and Taker goes for the ladder while Angle is still down. But wait! Its Kurt to his feet as he springs to life and goes after Taker. He grabs the leg and pulls Taker down. They exchange blows and Taker goes for the snake-eyes, but Angle reverses in to a german suplex. The straps go down and he wraps up the ankle which already took damage early on. With the ref un able to stop him he lays it in for as long as he wants.


Taker is now on one leg and Kurt can grab a weapon to finish him off. He climbs the ladder and Taker goes bye bye.


Kurt isnt fighting him at WM folks. He has proven to be more than enough for Taker to handle. Angle does here what he has proven he could do in the past- beat the Undertaker.

 

[Coco]

No it's not. It's debatable. Undertaker's record at Wrestlemania can be defined as sterling. From the handful of matches Angle and Taker have, only 2 of which ended cleanly with one convincingly defeating the other, the record is nowhere near sterling.

Fuck clean wins. When they fought in Angle's prime, Angle came out looking like the better man. And when they fought to a draw, Angle still made Taker tap for the first time ever. Superiority is superiority, clean or not. And no, we won't be counting Fully Loaded 2000. Not Angle's prime.

Angle: 2
Taker: 0
DQs: Non-issues here
Draws: Also a non-issue

That's the actual record, as draws and DQs shan't be taking place in this match.

How did Angle get into the Hell's Gate anyway? Oh yeah, Taker blocked the Ankle Lock, whilst on the mat. Don't tell me Taker didn't try to wrestle.

Sounds like Taker got forced to wrestle. Which matches my story.

So has Taker. Moot point.

Even if we pretend Taker is on Angle's level in ladder matches, and he's not, we still have Angle's superiority over Taker to deal with. Point: Angle.

Are you assuming that Angle's tactic will be to get a roll-up pin in a street fight? Me too, because there's no other way that Angle can keep the Deadman down. Both times Angle has pinned the Undertaker, Taker has got straight back up.

I'm assuming Angle will win because that's what he was. So, yes.

 

[Diet Soda]

Fuck clean wins. When they fought in Angle's prime, Angle came out looking like the better man. And when they fought to a draw, Angle still made Taker tap for the first time ever. Superiority is superiority, clean or not. And no, we won't be counting Fully Loaded 2000. Not Angle's prime.

Angle: 2
Taker: 0
DQs: Non-issues here
Draws: Also a non-issue

That's the actual record, as draws and DQs shan't be taking place in this match.

2002 and 2006 weren't in Taker's prime either, so shall we discard Angle's wins too?

Sounds like Taker got forced to wrestle. Which matches my story.

Taker was grounded, had his advantage taken away. Any means necessary.

Even if we pretend Taker is on Angle's level in ladder matches, and he's not, we still have Angle's superiority over Taker to deal with. Point: Angle.

Come on. How many people do you hear say "The Master of the Ladder Match, Kurt Angle"?

Angle has defeated Benoit, but lost to Styles, and Anderson.
Undertaker has defeated Jeff Hardy, but lost to Edge.

Again, not enough to highlight an overriding trend, but the facts here favour Taker.

 

[Coco]

2002 and 2006 weren't in Taker's prime either, so shall we discard Angle's wins too?

I consider a prime in wrestling to extend from the time one becomes a regular headliner. Taker has had a lengthy prime marred in kayfabe dominance. So you can scratch the bottom of the barrel all you want, but you'll still be wrong.

Taker was grounded, had his advantage taken away. Any means necessary.

Yes, Taker did lose.

Come on. How many people do you hear say "The Master of the Ladder Match, Kurt Angle"?

Angle has defeated Benoit, but lost to Styles, and Anderson.
Undertaker has defeated Jeff Hardy, but lost to Edge.

You forgot Angle's KOTM wins.

You're welcome.

Again, not enough to highlight an overriding trend, but the facts here favour Taker.

The overriding trend is Angle having Taker's number.

 

[nightmare]

I will take Kurts victory over a psychotic madman like Benoit and his KOTM record over Taker's 1 win over a pill popping Jeff Hardy. Hardy is known for doing front flips from ladders, not winning them. That claim goes to Edge- a man that beat Taker in TLC.


Kurt wins. WM record has fuck all to do with this match. Kurt has bested Taker before and will likely do so again. He made Taker tap out. Let that sink in.... Taker tapped out.

 

[Diet Soda]

I consider a prime in wrestling to extend from the time one becomes a regular headliner. Taker has had a lengthy prime marred in kayfabe dominance. So you can scratch the bottom of the barrel all you want, but you'll still be wrong.

In terms of kayfabe, Angle was the chicken-shit heel that needed his brother's help to sneak a win over the Undertaker, hence why I'm discounting Survivor Series 2000 as a proper win. Yes, it was Taker's 10 year anniversary, but Angle was being pushed to the moon at that point. For the majority of that match, Taker dominated.

Yes, Taker did lose.

I know, I've given Angle his credit there. But as a self-confessed and very stubborn Taker mark, Angle only just got it.

You forgot Angle's KOTM wins.

Not forgotten, omitted. I was only counting one-on-one matches, which is what we're hypothetically debating. By that reasoning, you may as well say that Kurt Angle has defeated the Undertaker in a Hell in a Cell match.

 

[AwesomeRko]

Angle in his prime (early 2000's) would take this. The issue with Undertaker is that he has been consistent but has never really had a prime in the sense of being the dominant guy in the company. Angle has done that and thus would win this match. Taker throughout his career has conistently lost to the top guys on the biggest stages, aside from at Wrestlemania of course and I see no reason why he would not put Kurt Angle over here.

The stipulation is all in all pretty balanced, Angle is better at ladder matches, Taker probably the street fight and they are both reaonsably accomplished in a cage although I would argue Kurt's superior speed and athleticism gives him a slight advantage there too.

When all this is taken into account Angles existing very good record against Taker is just a bonus.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Angle in his prime (early 2000's) would take this. The issue with Undertaker is that he has been consistent but has never really had a prime in the sense of being the dominant guy in the company. Angle has done that and thus would win this match.

If we're talking strictly about their WWE careers, then Angle hasn't been dominant. As much as I hated the matches, Undertaker beat Flair, Hogan, Austin, and HHH in a three month span.

Taker throughout his career has conistently lost to the top guys on the biggest stages, aside from at Wrestlemania of course and I see no reason why he would not put Kurt Angle over here.

Kurt Angle has too unless you want to delve into a discussion as to what constitutes "biggest stages".

 

[AwesomeRko]

If we're talking strictly about their WWE careers, then Angle hasn't been dominant. As much as I hated the matches, Undertaker beat Flair, Hogan, Austin, and HHH in a three month span.



Kurt Angle has too unless you want to delve into a discussion as to what constitutes "biggest stages".

Hmm I'm not sure I agree. In 2003 Angle alongside HHH and Lesnar was the hottest commodity in full-time wrestling. He scored pretty significant victories over Lesnar both at Summerslam and Vengeance. I'm just not sure Taker has ever been as consistently relevant to the main-event scene as Angle during that period.

 

[nightmare]

Taker tapped out. To Angle. Whats stopping him from doing that again in either of the 1st two matches. Then in the ladder match his leg by that time will be fucked up. Taker beat the king of ladder losers Jeff Hardy. He will be facing a very tough and capable Kurt Angle. Not even in the same leauge.


Again, Angle has beaten Taker. Angle made The Undertaker tap the F out. If this was a HIAC he would have a better shot at beating Angle, but he still technically beat Taker in one of those. The numbers dont lie and Angle has legit claim over him here. If this was at WM it would be a no brainer win for Taker. Its not so Angle gets the nod.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

I think that the stipulation goes against Angle. I just cannot see Deadman Undertaker being defeated twice in one night even though he need not be pinned twice. Still, it is an achievement equivalent to Jericho defeating Rock and Austin both on the same night and say what you want, but that does not happen often. If this was a one fall match, I would have possibly given it to Angle.

I looked at Undertaker's records at ProFightDB and I saw that both Angle and Undertaker have both pinned each other twice against each other with a ton of DQs and No Contests thrown in. So, it is not as if any guy has an advantage there. I also know that Kurt made Taker tap out but that was when Taker had been humanized as The American Badass. I cannot see him ever tapping in his Deadman avatar.

The thing however is, that if you look at the match that took place at No Way Out in 2006, you will notice that Angle's win was seen as a fluke win. It looked as if he might tap out any second but he was able to roll Angle up somehow. Even after the match, Taker looked fresher than Angle. Angle was staggering really and finding it difficult to even stand up.

I can see that sort of thing happening once maybe in the streetfight match or the cage match but obviously not in both. Undertaker is bound to win one of those given that both stips actually favor him. By the time the ladder match rolls around, both guys will be hurt but their match at No Way Out tells me that Kurt will be hurting more. Angle does not have a great record in singles ladder matches. A King of The Mountain match is a different deal because it has multiple competitors. Undertaker does not have a significantly better record either but you need a real ladder match specialist to beat Undertaker here especially after you been in two very tough matches with The Undertaker.

Winner: Undertaker.

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

I think it is safe to say that this would be a great match! It would clearly go to 3 stages, as ALL matches of this type tend to, advertising a 3 stages of hell match and then booking it to end in 2 falls would be ripping off the paying fan.

Now, both Angle and 'Taker can brawl, but in a street fight I have to go with the Deadman. More sadistic and brutal than Kurt, I could see Undertaker getting the pinfall here, after numerous chair shots, including his trademark guillotine where he crushes Angle's throat on the metal of the chair. A tombstone Piledriver ends this fall. 1-0 Undertaker.

Next is the Cage, and again I feel it is pretty evenly matched. Both men will be hurting by this point, but I can see The Anklelock coming into play here, wearing down Taker's legs and enabling Angle to escape the cage, either through the door or over the top of the cage. This ties things at 1-1.

Finally, the Ladder match. This was a tough one, but Angle in his prime is an Olympic conditioned athlete, and I think he would have the stamina to prevail in the 3rd fall. Taker's legs would be weakened after about 6 Anklelock's, and while both guys would dish out the punishment, the desire of Angle, a man who won the Olympics with a broken freakin' neck, would help him climb to the ladder to meet 'Taker at the top, and knock the Deadman from the top, allowing Angle to take the briefcase.

Winner 2-1 : Kurt Angle

 

[Diet Soda]

...the desire of Angle, a man who won the Olympics with a broken freakin' neck, would help him climb to the ladder to meet 'Taker at the top, and knock the Deadman from the top, allowing Angle to take the briefcase.

The desire of Taker, a man who won a Hell in a Cell match with a broken freakin' foot, would help him climb the ladder to meet Angle at the top, and Chokeslam the Olympian from the top, allowing Taker to take the briefcase.

Much better, n'est-ce pas?

I'm just not sure Taker has ever been as consistently relevant to the main-event scene as Angle during that period.

Except for in 1997-1999 where Taker was more often than not around the top of the card feuding with Austin, Kane, Mankind, The Rock, D-X, and so on.

If this was a HIAC he would have a better shot at beating Angle, but he still technically beat Taker in one of those. The numbers dont lie and Angle has legit claim over him here.

Quick recap how that match ended. Angle, who had reached his limit, managed to drape one hand over the Rock, who had just been Stunned, to claim a pin whilst Stone Cold and Triple H were still fighting. The Undertaker wasn't even inside the cell. Angle won here by the skin of his teeth, and had to rely on someone else's finisher to win the fall. Not a legit claim. It's still Taker.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Taker tapped out. To Angle. Whats stopping him from doing that again in either of the 1st two matches. Then in the ladder match his leg by that time will be fucked up. Taker beat the king of ladder losers Jeff Hardy. He will be facing a very tough and capable Kurt Angle. Not even in the same leauge.


Again, Angle has beaten Taker. Angle made The Undertaker tap the F out. If this was a HIAC he would have a better shot at beating Angle, but he still technically beat Taker in one of those. The numbers dont lie and Angle has legit claim over him here. If this was at WM it would be a no brainer win for Taker. Its not so Angle gets the nod.

I hate using this example because what constitutes submitting? If it's tapping the mat two or three times, then that match is null and void to me because Taker only hit his once before the three-count ended. I'm not using the Survivor Series match because Kurt isn't going to have his brother with him. All that leaves is a squash at Fully Loaded and a classic at No Way Out. I still don't know who to choose.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

I suppose I could be off on this, and if I am, let me know.

Kurt Angle hasn't beaten The Undertaker clean. Not once (about 99% on that). Undertaker, on the other hand, has most certainly defeated Kurt Angle clean. Oh, and that was actually BikerTaker.

If we're going by each man in his prime, Kurt doesn't match up. Taker wins 99/100 times. I like Kurt as much as I do Undertaker, but Kurt shouldn't win this vote.

Vote Taker.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

This would be a fantastic match to watch. Like Cena vs. HBK, neither guy seems to have an overwhelming advantage in this match, even though the stips of some matches might be better suited.

In the street fight aspect, both guys are tough and have shown time and again that they can brawl. Taker, however, has the advantage here over Angle I think. So many of Taker's biggest and most memorable matches have either degenerated into or plain started out as a physical brawl. Angle will give him a hard time, obviously as Angle's no slouch in the toughness department, but I see Taker winning the street fight after a Tombstone on the ring steps inside the ring at about the 20 minute mark.

As for the cage, again, no super advantage for either guy. Angle is the faster of the two but I expect both guys are bloody and hurting after the street fight. There are so many different ways to win this one. I think Angle wins this one by escaping the cage. I can see him managing to trip Taker up as Taker tries to escape the cage by locking in the ankle lock, with Angle lying close to the door. Angle has the lock applied while dragging himself backward while keeping Taker facing the other way. Angle releases the hold when his upper body is out of the cage so he can escape. I see Taker grabbing Angle's leg, trying to hold him and pull him back in while Angle desperately pulls and scrambles before finally falling to the floor.

As for the ladder match, it's up in the air I think. Again, no huge advantage for either guy. Their both hurting, both tired and both have strong credentials in ladder matches. At the end, I have to give the match to Taker. Time and time again, Taker seems to be someone that rises to the occassion in huge match situations. With this match taking place in Tokyo, I can see that as being an extra little boost for Taker. I can't really argue with anyone voting for Angle, but I have to go with Taker barely squeezing out a win after chokeslamming Angle off the ladder.

 

[Hulkamaniac]

A bad match up for Taker, IMO. Angle has beaten him before, and Taker has beaten him, so obviously the match up is close. However, the stipulation places a premium on cardio and agility, both of which are to Angle's advantage. I see Taker winning the Street Fight, and then losing the last two falls consecutively. Taker is known for HiaC matches, but he's lost more than he's won.

The ladder fall will be his undoing, sadly. By the time of the ladder match, Undertaker will have spent significant time in Angle's ankle lock, which is his main finisher. It's going to be awfully tough to climb a ladder with a wrecked ankle. I know Taker will probably win the vote because he's the more well-liked figure, but the match up dictates Angle probably pulls off a gritty victory.

 

[shattered dreams]

Has anyone given a kayfabe argument why Undertaker wins that 3rd stage other than "its Taker"? This is just silly. The arguments are Taker is resilient so he wins. Umm there should not be any debate that Angle is better conditioned than Undertaker here. The idea that Taker doesn't lose, or doesn't lose big matches is absurd. Even in his Wrestlemania streak the majority of those matches weren't that "big." Only 3 times was he in a title match at WM. Taker is a popular figure, not an unstoppable dominant force.

Kurt Angle has the same number of reigns with WWE championship and has actually held that belt 59 days total longer than the Undertaker still. When Kurt Angle left the WWE he had more World title reigns than Undertaker had and for over 140 days longer. At that point Angle had been in WWE for 7 years while Undertaker had 16 years. So tell me who is more dominant? Tell me who wins more big matches?

In the time since Angle left he has had 5 reigns as TNA WHC for 463 days and also defeated Lesnar for a title in Tokyo. In that time Taker had 3 reigns on Smackdown with the WHC totaling 207 days. Kurt Angle is a triple crown champion in both WWE and TNA. Taker isn't even a triple crown champ in WWE while Angle is the 5th grand slam champion ever in WWE. Angle continues to be more accomplished than Taker even though Mark has been in wrestling for at least 9 years longer.

You like streaks? How about Angle ended the best streak in prowrestling since Goldberg when he defeated Samoa Joe in their first match together. He made a truly unstoppable kayfabe force tap in their first match together.