If TNA Wants to Be Seen As "Adult", They Need To Step Up Their Game.

[The Doctor]

I've seen TNA called "Adult", and WWE called "kiddie". There's even an interesting thread about it in this very section. Basically, it says that there isn't really much difference in WWE and TNA, except that TNA has more blood and swearing.

Reading that thread made me realize something: TNA needs to get with the program! If they want to be seen as adult, they need to ramp up their game and start giving us some adult programming!

I'm not talking about "Shock TV" or more sex and violence. I'm talking about something that isn't insulting to the fans' intelligence. I don't want blood in every match, Velvet Sky to take her clothes off (OK, I do, but not in the context of the program I'm proposing), and a storyline where Vince Russo chops Morley's penis off.

I want a program that will entertain me as well as make me think. I want something I can watch and think "Man, this is some good stuff." Wrestling will never be accepted or high-class by any means, but is it not too much to ask for something comparable to the intelligent shows on TV?

Here, I'll spell out what I want:

1. Deep and Complicated Characters. Black and white morality is good, yes, but I also want to see shades of grey, and I'm not talking about bullshit Russo-booking "tweeners". Give characters deeper motives. Make them more than 2-dimensional. TNA tries this, but I'm really not seeing it. I want characters with real depth, not just "you decide who to boo and cheer for". And with that comes...

2. Realistic Storylines That Push The Envelope. The Orlando Jordan bisexual kiss was something I thought could be the start of one of these. If the bisexuality was portrayed as part of Jordan's character and wasn't taken to the extreme so that he became a stereotype, it could have been great. Imagine if the locker room had to come to grips with having a gay or bi man in the locker room. Obviously there would be some homophobia in a sport that relies on men touching each other, while others would accept Jordan. A storyline like this could attempt to highlight the problems gays face in society.

We need more stories like that. Ones that talk about realistic problems without getting anvilicious or heavy handed. I'm not saying TNA should turn into a series of After School Specials, but with stories like this we would have more legit reasons to say why TNA could be considered more adult. Regular TV shows do it, and they could easily be adapted into wrestling. In fact, ECW did stories like that, where characters had deeper relationships with each other and had more edgy yet mature storylines, like the pregnancy/lesbian angle, or the one with Sandman's son.

Those two things could make TNA better than it is right now, and it would give us a reason to call it "adult" programming. Shock TV isn't the future, but rather mature and complicated characters and stories that make sense. If TNA wants to be edgy, it can't go with the old technique of putting shocking images on TV. It needs to break out, do something newer, and give us a program we as adults can be proud to say we watch.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

I agree. Whenever I read a post in which TNA is called edgier than the WWE or has more adult oriented programming, I always wind up asking "where is it"? Yes, it's true that TNA says a few more dirty words than the WWE but so what? It's hardly that big of a deal when you consider today's average 12 year old swears more than what I've seen on TNA. A few dirty words spewed out once in a while doesn't overly impress me.

As far as the WWE's no blood policy, that's really the most significant difference between the two in terms of overall programming. But, when you just look at it from an unbiased view, it's not really a big deal either since blood isn't something that's used in TNA all that often. Blood is a novelty that, when used every once in a while, adds some spice to a match. While I think all but cutting it out entirely in the WWE does limit certain match types, it's not as if TNA has someone blade at every show.

It's true that if TNA really wants to be considered more "adult", then a few four letter words here and there coupled with a few juice jobs that pop up every once in a while won't cut it. But, TNA still advertisies itself as TV-14 and WWE is PG. People actually see the labels pop up and, humans being very visually stimulated as a species overall, a lot of people have locked onto those labels and blown them way out of proportion. And when you legitimately look and compare the programming, there's not nearly as much difference right now as TNA would have you believe.

 

[UFOcalling]

I've been thinking this for a long time, TNA really should be focused on trying to get the adult demographic. I COMPLETELY agree that they should be going with more "adult" story lines, similar to what the WWF(E) was doing in the late 90s. With TNA moving to Monday nights, it's a great way to get WWE viewers to change the channel.

 

[Kliq4Life]

Yeah i agree they need to be more edgy, but storylines with the times as well. For example, the Orlando Jordan thing is a great, modern-day concept that will be interesting in seeing how it will go over with the fans in this day and age.

And seeing Velvet sky naked on IMPACT=RATINGS!!!! Sorry but hey you know im right!!!

 

[wazaveli]

I agree with Doc Dibiase in that TNA just needs to include programming and storylines that us as Adults would watch on our normal shows, but wrestling orientated.

Random chicks taking their clothes off and all that Attitude Era random tv doesn't cut it because I'm assuming people will get bored after a while or see it as a WWF rip-off.

For starters though, they could stop censoring Tara's boobies

 

[MoneyMack]

I agree with Doc Dibiase in that TNA just needs to include programming and storylines that us as Adults would watch on our normal shows, but wrestling orientated.

Random chicks taking their clothes off and all that Attitude Era random tv doesn't cut it because I'm assuming people will get bored after a while or see it as a WWF rip-off.

For starters though, they could stop censoring Tara's boobies

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who "gets bored" with "random chicks taking off their clothes"?

TNA does need to step up their 'adult' game. I think the switch to Mondays will change alot of those type of things. Actually goin head to head with WWE- they're gonna hafta pull out all the stops. But its not like TNA is gonna show the knockouts in the locker-room showering or anything. They still have to stay under SpikeTV/FCC regulations. I do however remember seeing some Stratus side-boob, coming out of the shower once. The have to tease the sexual side of things. They already do with things like TBP's ring entrance. But come March- Its time to kick things up another notch HH & EB!!

Other then sexually related things, there are Language & Violence.

Language- basically I think anything can be said in thier timeslot besides fuck or shit! Hell- I hear 'shit' on FX after 10 alot more then I would think I would. So thats that.

Violence- I think TNA could get away with pretty much anything they wanted to here. Lets not start pulling guns on each other tho- please.

Moderation: Quick retort from Doc Dibiase:

Great way to totally miss the point of my post.

I'm NOT talking about more violence, nudity, and language. I'm talking about deep, complex, intelligent storylines and characters we can all sink our teeth into. If you had actually read the first post, you would have understood that.

 

[Kenny Powers]

There really isn't that much a difference between TNA and WWE as far as adult content is concerned. I wish TNA would push the envelope too, but we have to wonder how it will affect the wrestlers and the audience. I would love to see a story line between Angle, Jarrett, and Karen Angle. That would be interesting television, but it would probably destroy Jarrett and Angle's relationship even more.

I don't think cursing or women in skimpy outfits is "shocking" enough. I would love to see some more personal story lines involving Bischoff and the talent. So far I think TNA has done a good job of focusing the history between Bischoff and Foley and even Flair. I think it would be more entertaining for the feud to be even more personal between Bischoff and Foley though in the long run.

Who knows, maybe the Pope can have an "affair" with AJ's wife. I thought Flair cut a pretty shocking and slightly racist promo on the Pope last week. He told Pope that AJ had more suits then his mama had green stamps. I may be wrong but I don't think you would hear an adult promo like that in the WWE.

 

[Dagger Dias]

As far as the deep and complicated characters.... there should be a mix of "true" faces and "true" heels alongside some anti-heroes, as they are still popular as well. Some fans still want "true" faces and heels, while others really like anti-heroes. The best way to solve that problem is for TNA to do something like what Doc suggested. Have "true" faces and heels but add more to their characters. We need more than just "I'm a face so I'm going to win lots of titles and never cheat" as well as "I'm a heel so I'm going to always make the fans angry". There's quite a few of us fans who want to know why we should care about a character regardless of face/heel status. I tend to rely on promos to help me decide who to root for. I couldn't care less who the face is, if I think the heel is cooler I'm going to root for them. Adding a more complex layer to who the character is would be a good idea because this gives the fans a better idea of what type of character it is, and thus they have more or less a new reason for whether they should like that wrestler or not.

Then there's the realistic storylines issue. Pushing the envelope can be good, but they can only go so far before they reach something too controversial for television. Eventually they'd end up with either something illegal or something far too ridiculous for the fans to take seriously. I'm up for more realistic storylines that push the envelope, but TNA should be careful about what they decide to air. Some ideas for realistic storylines are great, others are too controversial. They just need to be a little careful, which I know they TNA is capable of.

I agree with both of Doc's ideas because they would give the fans some more memorable angles and characters on tv, while at the same time showing them that TNA is the more "Adult" oriented federation at the moment without being TOO controversial. It could definitely work.

 

[ABMorales787]

You're right. TNA should shift itself to actual adult based programming. Samoa Joe getting kidnapped is something I would've expected from WWE. John Cena gets kidnapped, kids cry. Swearing isn't "adult". Its pretty senseless if you do it without a motive. I'm surprised TNA creative hasn't been able to center itself to a more adult base rather than just having the rating. I mean the network they're in should be map enough. CSI, Blue Mountain State, UFC, 1000 Ways To Die, etc. TNA has something WWE doesn't have and its just that. The ability to be "Attitude oriented". They should be focusing on it and taking advantage on the fan base that was left behind over a decade ago.

 

[Serious Mozzarella]

It's weird with TNA. Perhaps I've been taking one episode of the show out of context, but I haven't seen an episode of TNA since Hogan's premiere until Thursday's show. For an adult show, I got:

1. Samoa Joe getting kidnapped by a bunch of guys in a van
2. Abyss "drawing power" from Hulk Hogan's Hall of Fame ring.
3. Eric Bischoff and Mick Foley playing dress up

Which was surreal because this happened in the same show as

1. Kurt Angle getting vengeance on Anderson by being a dick about medals Angle got from a soldier
2. One chick going absolutely nuts and beating the shit out of another chick
3. A long-time friendship imploding

It's like TNA doesn't know who to cater to. They're bringing out all these different styles of storytelling, and a lot of it doesn't make sense - it's paced like a children's TV show, except with more swearing. I thought the whole premise of the show was that it was supposed to cater to the older generation of wrestling fans, while the WWE catered to the younger generation. Both shows cater to the younger generation, but one of them can't seem to be honest with itself.

TNA might as well be Dora the Explorer, except saying, "SWIPER, PUT THAT SHIT DOWN OR I WILL BEAT THE LIVING SHIT OUT OF YOU." You can swear all you want, but it's still essentially a kids' show with writing beneath the audience it's trying to cater to.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

I can agree with Doc to an extent. I think deep complicated characters are more likely to amass a following of viewers that wishes to follow them on a weekly basis on TV as they are more interesting than the straight forward characters. Actually, a variety of characters mixed with some straight forward and some more complex than others, is likely the way to go because it offers variety to the viewers.

However, I have an issue, Doc.

Let's say TNA wants to do just that and push the envelope in their segments like you suggest. Okay, that's fine and dandy, unless Spike TV wishes to step in and over-rule TNA on these particular segments. And of course, I am referring to the Orlando Jordan kiss segment. So you are saying that "TNA needs to step up its efforts", but why do you fault TNA for actually doing what you suggest, when you have Spike TV over-rule them? Shouldn't you be placing the blame on Spike TV for something like that?

 

[The Doctor]

Let's say TNA wants to do just that and push the envelope in their segments like you suggest. Okay, that's fine and dandy, unless Spike TV wishes to step in and over-rule TNA on these particular segments. And of course, I am referring to the Orlando Jordan kiss segment. So you are saying that "TNA needs to step up its efforts", but why do you fault TNA for actually doing what you suggest, when you have Spike TV over-rule them? Shouldn't you be placing the blame on Spike TV for something like that?

I believe it is the fault of both of them. Spike really has no right in editing a TV-14 show, while they show programs like "1000 Ways To Die" and the like. However, I believe part of the reason it was edited was because Spike isn't used to TNA having edgy content that is actually edgy. Oh sure, there are swears and sexual positions, but when it comes to something that actually draws a shocked response (hopefully the good kind that makes you want to tune in), Spike balks. Beneath the blood and swears, there is what is fundamentally a show aimed at younger audiences rather than the 14-and-up range they should be going for.

TNA needs to cut a deal with Spike to let them show TV-14 content and at the same time give us adult content that is intelligent. With TNA's move to live coming soon, I see no reason why this can't happen. All they need to do is sit down with Spike, tell them "We're going to start living up to our rating on live TV", and strike a deal.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

I believe it is the fault of both of them. Spike really has no right in editing a TV-14 show, while they show programs like "1000 Ways To Die" and the like. However, I believe part of the reason it was edited was because Spike isn't used to TNA having edgy content that is actually edgy. Oh sure, there are swears and sexual positions, but when it comes to something that actually draws a shocked response (hopefully the good kind that makes you want to tune in), Spike balks. Beneath the blood and swears, there is what is fundamentally a show aimed at younger audiences rather than the 14-and-up range they should be going for.

TNA needs to cut a deal with Spike to let them show TV-14 content and at the same time give us adult content that is intelligent. With TNA's move to live coming soon, I see no reason why this can't happen. All they need to do is sit down with Spike, tell them "We're going to start living up to our rating on live TV", and strike a deal.

The Network is the Final Boss. It isn't a 50/50 partnership. The Network gives the organization money to produce the product and a platform to air the product. They are the ones in charge. Not TNA.

Now, the higher your program ratings, the more influence you have with the network, obviously, but ultimately if the network feels what you are doing can lead to bad PR, they have every right to tell you to pull your segment, or whatever it is that can conflict with the network's image. That was obviously done with Orlando Jordan's segment, and that has been done in the past with WWE, such as with them killing Mohammed Hassan's character and the angle associated with it.

At one point, USA Network was upset with WWE's ratings and had Vince McMahon himself on Conference Calls each week grilling him how he was going to get the ratings up.

So I just want you to understand that TNA can do all the controversial things they want. But if the Network they are on decides that something they are doing is too controversial and may present the Network in a bad light, the Network has the final say in whether to air or pull any given segment. They are the boss since they are the one funding the company and giving it a platform to air their programming.

 

[The Doctor]

But why should they have to worry about such a thing? They are rated TV-14, not TV-Y7! There are far worse things than a bi man kissing another man on TV-14 shows that I've seen. If anything, TNA is getting screwed by the network that won't let them realize their full potential. Spike shows the program "1000 Ways To Die" without any backlash, and to me that type of program is far worse than a gay kiss that wasn't done in a forceful or negative way.

I know TNA can't find another network, but there has to be something that can be done. TNA for me right now isn't cutting it, and I'm sure we'd all like some proper, edgy, adult programming to go with what you call "Wakeless Watered-Down Entertainment".

 

[JJYanks121]

I've been thinking about this for a while now, and I really don't think Spike pulled the plug on the Orlando Jordan kiss. I've seen some of those other shows on Spike, and clearly, their content supersedes TNA in terms of "not suitable for children", but yet, we on these boards made the assumption that Spike was the ones that "censored" Orlando Jordan. The more I thought about it, the more I realized that it is TNA that pulled the plug and there's really no debate about it. On any programming, including G movies and the lowest TV ratingss possible, you can see people kissing. Now, those people are heterosexual, but kissing is hardly seen as adult content. Thus, even if Jordan made out with the guy, which I'm pretty sure he did not, the very act of kissing isn't risque. If Spike pulled the plug, they could be sued for prejudice against the gay community, and given the gay marriage battles going on, that would NOT be a good idea as the community is as strong as ever. Therefore, I think this non-risque action was pulled by TNA because it was simply not needed for the shock value intended at the moment. As the company prepares to go to Mondays, it's wise to piss off the least amount of people possible and that is what they did. I also think Jordan did it on his own and TNA didn't approve it and thus, they had to show meddle and tell him no.

As for the meat of the thread (and I apologize for taking so long on the Jordan thing), I believe Doc that you are referring to my thread about the lack of discernible difference between actual content of TNA and WWE and I appreciate the plug lol. I stand by what I said, but you are making the argument that since the ratings are different, TNA should use that and actually push the envelope with their characters and stories, and I'm not so sure I agree.

At its core, I think wrestling should have something for everyone. There is a distinct generation of wrestling fans (many on this board) that feel wrestling is for adults and thus, the product should have more of those elements. Then there are some like my friends who, without ever seeing so much of a match, let alone a Raw, Impact, Nitro, etc, feel wrestling is for kids. This even from our generation who have seen breasts on Pay Per View, more blood than in a vampire movie, and such over the top acts as a man eating his own dog unknowingly. I think the fans who were enamored by this time period are the ones that clamor most for this type of product again. However, since that isn't the point of your post, I will move on.

You argue that the stories should be perhaps more graphic and characters be more in depth to justify the rating, but you might want to be more specific in what you mean by that, because I could argue that I've seen PG movies with characters that have more inherently evil qualities than R movies. I could very easily argue that movie ratings are often given due to the cheap thrill stuff like overt violence, language, and nudity. The truth is, good writing can happen within any context, and there's very little that ultimately separates the writing for a PG show and a TV-14 show.

Let's take last year at this time as an example. As WWE geared up for Wrestlemania 25 under the PG banner, Randy Orton systematically injured members of the McMahon family, including hitting his finisher on Stephanie, a woman (clearly man on woman violence is something that is questionable regardless of provocation) and the "good guy" retaliated by invading Orton's house and going at him with the intent to injure or perhaps kill with the use of a blunt object (sledgehammer). These ideas are certainly not "kid friendly" by nature. Hell, wrestling in general isn't kid friendly by nature. It only becomes that way if parents are wise enough to explain to their children that what they are seeing is just a program like any other TV show and they shouldn't solve problems with fighting, nor should they attempt the moves they see on tv. I know that when I have children, their wrestling watching will be closely monitored by me depending on what type of programming is being put on.

As for "stepping up their game", again I'll say I'm not sure how, but that's because I don't understand the argument that "WWE is for kids, TNA is for adults". For one thing, wrestling should be for everyone because by excluding people, you lower your chances at gaining viewers which is somethign TNA desperately needs. Since we've already established that TNA isn't currently more adult than the "competitor", is it that important that that aspect change? I've always lived by the philosophy that you can't worry about outside factors, you need to focus on yourself. In this case, TNA should not be worried about competing with WWE. Ultimately, the fact that WCW was so consumed by "the war" was a factor in its demise. Had it simply focused on producing a solid television show and solid Pay Per Views, it would be around today. Because of how that time period played out though, it is assumed the wrestling has to be a competition. It does not. Does the fact that there are 20 comedy sitcoms on TV make them each in competition to each other? The answer is no. If two and a half men is funny each week, people will watch. If it is not, people will not watch and it would be cancelled. Thus, TNA has a TV contract with Spike. Currently, their ratings are eh and the show they put on is very second rate (in terms of production and quality). If this company wants to generate any sort of success, the best thing to do would not be to focus on how to better suit TV-14, but how to produce better TV in general. This becomes a concern as the program moves to Monday nights and goes live every other week. Remember that the 1/4 show was very sloppy live. That cannot happen again. Also, the wrestling audience is a finite group, so getting viewers comes from a smaller demographic than most types of television. Limiting that group to an older demographic limits your potential viewers and would not be advisable at this time. It's going to be tough, but what would be advisable would be to create stories that actually make sense and compel new viewers to watch the show. The TV-14 thing is irrelevant to everyone except those stuck in 1999 who feel wrestling is at its best when being raunchy. Keep in mind though, when it was, the WWF at the time cut ties with USA who got calls from the FCC weekly and wouldn't support the WWF anymore. That television style might have won the war, but it was a time met with more critics of the business than any other time.

This is an everchanging business. It is one that started as a inherently for everyone, a carne spectacle between muscular men engaged in athletic predetermined competition. As television began to play a role, stories became more mainstream, but the characters and stories were somewhat relatable to everyone. Until about 1996, wrestling was something that any age group could find part of it that they enjoyed. Once the nWO formed and beat WWF in the rankings, WWF responded with guns in houses, swearing, lots of blood, nudity, etc. The product became one for teens because many adults weren't comfortable with the outlandish nature of the products. Once the wars died due to a victor, programming has gotten less and less raunchy to begin with. While some will "blame" Linda McMahon's senate run as reason for PG programming, I site a return to normalcy as the real reason. Wrestling was always meant to be "something for everyone". I believe that if TNA wants to carve a niche, do so by finding "something for everyone". Have a product that some children, a lot of teens, and a good amount of adults will enjoy. Do that by having a wide range of characters that appeal to different demographics and have stories that can be interpreted at different levels. You know the kind...the same kind that appear in kids movies so that parents can see them and get a laugh at something that goes over the kids heads. Do that and everyone will be happy. Couple that with some marketing and you might get some viewers. I might be willing to change my tune a little if you can explain what you mean by "being more TV-14", so get back to me on that.

 

[The Doctor]

You make a good point about wrestling needing to be for everyone. The thing is, everyone can enjoy the type of programming I am proposing. Many people from all sorts of demographics enjoy shows like Chuck or Psyche, shows that cater to an adult demographic by being smart; witty, and complex, but still are enjoyable for a slightly younger audience through defined good and bad guys to go along with a few anti heroes and anti villains.

That said, why SHOULDN'T TNA play to its rating? It is rated TV-14, as in Suitable For Ages 14 And Up. It has the leeway it needs to differentiate itself from WWE by appealing to an older demographic.

I will definitely grant you that WWE got it right with the Orton story of last year, until they ruined it by making Orton not crazy. If TNA could capture the magic and promise that WWE had with that angle, it could be great.

I also agree that thereis barely any difference between "kiddie" WWE and "adult" TNA. That is why I want to see TNA go in the direction I am proposng, using characters with more grey morality as opposed to WWE's black-and-white characters. I love WWE, but the last character to be similar to what I want was Kofi Kingston when he destroyed Orton's stock car. Orton himself cannot really be classed as a grey character because he is still a full-blown heel, albeit one that gets face pops.

As for what I want...Have you ever heard of the angle in ECW featuring Raven brainwashing Sandman's son? I want something like that. Neither party in the feud was a traditional face or heel. The storyline was charged with emotion. Sandman showed depth through the love of his son. Raven showed depth by brainwashing Sandman's son in the first place. I'd like to see more stories like this, or stories like the Orton angle of last year.

You say that TNA should focus on producing good TV as opposed to playing to the TV-14 rating. Well, I believe that doing what I am suggesting will create good TV WHILE being an adult program. For a TV-14 program, you need TV-14 writing, and that is what I want.

I feel I must reiterate that I DO NOT want shock TV, but rather a more mature and high class style of wrestling program. Give me intelligent and personal feuds over Morely castrating himself any day.

 

[JJYanks121]

Fair enough Doc, I am with you. I like storylines that make me think as well. It's what I like in movies, it's what I like in TV shows. Your examples are fair and you've made good points. I am with you that educated writing could be something the TNA program could certainly benefit from. Hell, those of us educated folk don't like having our intelligence insulted, and you the ideas you propose will get people to think and I'm all for it. What it means within a rating, I'm still not sure because I believe smart writing can be done within any context, but I at least understand where you are coming from and I'm glad to see someone who's not looking for low brow programming.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

I've seen TNA called "Adult", and WWE called "kiddie". There's even an interesting thread about it in this very section. Basically, it says that there isn't really much difference in WWE and TNA, except that TNA has more blood and swearing.

Reading that thread made me realize something: TNA needs to get with the program! If they want to be seen as adult, they need to ramp up their game and start giving us some adult programming!

I'm not talking about "Shock TV" or more sex and violence. I'm talking about something that isn't insulting to the fans' intelligence. I don't want blood in every match, Velvet Sky to take her clothes off (OK, I do, but not in the context of the program I'm proposing), and a storyline where Vince Russo chops Morley's penis off.

I want a program that will entertain me as well as make me think. I want something I can watch and think "Man, this is some good stuff." Wrestling will never be accepted or high-class by any means, but is it not too much to ask for something comparable to the intelligent shows on TV?

Hilarious, because by that same accord all the angles that "make you think" are the same that are shit on for being "illogical" and "making no sense" because the fans can't see the finish line from a mile and a half away like they can with the ABC booking the WWE utilizes. So which is it? You want "logical" color-by-numbers booking where bad guy beats up good guy and good guy gets his revenge 10 times out of 10, or do you actually want to think about what's going to happen by having the company takes steps beyond the orthodox concept of booking (at least the orthodox concept of booking as determined by the WWE)?

Sting's deception angle hasn't made you think? Kendrick's new character hasn't made you think? This ECW invasion hasn't made you think?

Here, I'll spell out what I want:

1. Deep and Complicated Characters. Black and white morality is good, yes, but I also want to see shades of grey, and I'm not talking about bullshit Russo-booking "tweeners". Give characters deeper motives. Make them more than 2-dimensional. TNA tries this, but I'm really not seeing it. I want characters with real depth, not just "you decide who to boo and cheer for". And with that comes...

Then look no further than Mr. Anderson –*TNA's most in-depth character on the entire roster. He's not just a tweener, either – his character psychology is what makes him excel.

Samoa Joe is also a depth character who's basically undefinable. He reminds me very much of the same way Austin was in the sense that you never know when he's going to snap.

I'm curious, who do you think they've tried this with, and more importantly, who do you think they've failed with it at?

2. Realistic Storylines That Push The Envelope. The Orlando Jordan bisexual kiss was something I thought could be the start of one of these. If the bisexuality was portrayed as part of Jordan's character and wasn't taken to the extreme so that he became a stereotype, it could have been great. Imagine if the locker room had to come to grips with having a gay or bi man in the locker room. Obviously there would be some homophobia in a sport that relies on men touching each other, while others would accept Jordan. A storyline like this could attempt to highlight the problems gays face in society.

We need more stories like that. Ones that talk about realistic problems without getting anvilicious or heavy handed. I'm not saying TNA should turn into a series of After School Specials, but with stories like this we would have more legit reasons to say why TNA could be considered more adult. Regular TV shows do it, and they could easily be adapted into wrestling. In fact, ECW did stories like that, where characters had deeper relationships with each other and had more edgy yet mature storylines, like the pregnancy/lesbian angle, or the one with Sandman's son.

Realistic story lines have to be based on one thing: realism. Not reality. There is a difference between the two. It's impossible to have professional wrestling border on reality, because reality would destroy the very element that makes it what it is – the suspension of disbelief. It can, however, border on realism, which is to say that it can take very real aspects of human life and apply them to an otherwise cartoonish world – things like blood, injuries, infidelity, betrayal and friendship are what I'm noting here specifically.

While I always thought there was potential in the OJ bisexuality angle, it reeked of over-the-top IMO because he was being booked as a heel, not as the innocent victim being beaten on for being gay/bisexual. If you wanted to raise the awareness of issues like this, you don't book the guy as the type of character everyone willingly boos – if anything, that perpetuates the same stereotypes. You book them as innocent victims looking to compete in the same ring regardless of sexual preference. From that point you can have top babyface guys come out to make saves for them and subsequently cut promos about another character being a bigot for not living and letting live.

I do think, however, that they are doing a much better job incorporating an air of realism in their product, much more so than the WWE at least, because the seriousness of some of their recent angles far surpasses that which the WWE has done over the last two years.

The angle they ran with Abyss & Lauren v. Stevie Richards/Raven & Daffney was fantastically based on realism, and invoked as much emotion as I thought it could. While most folks don't particularly care for Abyss as a character (myself included), the angle itself that he was involved in I thought was a success.

The Angle/Anderson feud was probably the best based-on-realism angle they've done in the last four years as a company. The whole fight over disrespect regarding Anderson's apathetic reaction/behaviors toward the troops and the value of Angle's "warrior medal" combined with the over-the-top aspects of him carving Angle up with it and spitting on him/it I thought brought out the very best in those two. For that two-month period, that was the greatest thing happening in pro-wrestling. Hell, I'd even go so far as to say that the Wolfe/Angle feud did much of the same. The focus on Kurt's neck being the crux of the entire thing was fantastically "real", and I don't think there's a fan on earth who couldn't say that TNA sold the entire angle incredibly well when Wolfe used the Tower of London (for the first time in TNA) on Angle in the middle of the ring to close iMPACT! while Tenay somberly reminded the world of Angle's previous neck injuries.

Oh, and who could forget the Hernandez/Morgan incident with the Carbon Foot Print to the side of Hernandez' head against the ring post that saw EMT's carry Herndandez out of the building in what dozens of fans weren't even sure was a work. That wasn't realism?

Those two things could make TNA better than it is right now, and it would give us a reason to call it "adult" programming. Shock TV isn't the future, but rather mature and complicated characters and stories that make sense. If TNA wants to be edgy, it can't go with the old technique of putting shocking images on TV. It needs to break out, do something newer, and give us a program we as adults can be proud to say we watch.

I agree, but I'd also go so far as to say that the "shock TV" angles they've been accused of in recent history have seemingly gone by the wayside in place of much more deep-seeded character relationships and realism of late.

 

[The Doctor]

Hilarious, because by that same accord all the angles that "make you think" are the same that are shit on for being "illogical" and "making no sense" because the fans can't see the finish line from a mile and a half away like they can with the ABC booking the WWE utilizes.

The thing is, there's a difference between angles where you can't see the finish line and illogical angles. To use a WWE example: The Nexus is an unpredictable angle that makes us think, but it still is clear what their motivation is. We just don't know where it's going. An example of an "illogical" WWE angle would be Pretty Ricky. It had no real explanation, so the fans were made to come up with crazy explanations...as in, bad, ridiculous crazy explanations. It had no foreseeable payoff other than to bury one of their most over stars (R-Truth), and was just...bad.

A better example would be McMahon's accident at Million Dollar Mania. There was no payoff, he simply just showed up on RAW and was just fine, even though it seemed to be built up as a "whodunit" story. Sort of like Samoa Joe getting kidnapped by ninjas.

So which is it? You want "logical" color-by-numbers booking where bad guy beats up good guy and good guy gets his revenge 10 times out of 10, or do you actually want to think about what's going to happen by having the company takes steps beyond the orthodox concept of booking (at least the orthodox concept of booking as determined by the WWE)?

The thing is, "Good guy vs. bad guy" is the most fundamental element of stories everywhere. Yes, I want to think. Yes, I want deep and complicated stories. But all those stories should be built on the same basic premise of Good Guy vs. Bad Guy, because that's just how things are. You can make a villainous hero and a sympathetic villain, but the fact remains that someone who wants to blow up the world still wants to blow up the world whether he was abused as a child or not.

Sting's deception angle hasn't made you think? Kendrick's new character hasn't made you think?

These have been fairly decent.

This ECW invasion hasn't made you think?

For all the wrong reasons. Why would ECW want to invade TNA? Why would Tommy Dreamer and Raven be on the same side despite hating each other since childhood? Why is this even happening? Questions like this are questions about plot holes. Plot holes are never good.

Then look no further than Mr. Anderson –*TNA's most in-depth character on the entire roster. He's not just a tweener, either – his character psychology is what makes him excel.

Anderson is something very good about TNA. Always been a fan.

Samoa Joe is also a depth character who's basically undefinable. He reminds me very much of the same way Austin was in the sense that you never know when he's going to snap.

True. Except Austin never got kidnapped by ninjas.

Realistic story lines have to be based on one thing: realism. Not reality. There is a difference between the two. It's impossible to have professional wrestling border on reality, because reality would destroy the very element that makes it what it is – the suspension of disbelief. It can, however, border on realism, which is to say that it can take very real aspects of human life and apply them to an otherwise cartoonish world – things like blood, injuries, infidelity, betrayal and friendship are what I'm noting here specifically.

COMPLETELY agree.

While I always thought there was potential in the OJ bisexuality angle, it reeked of over-the-top IMO because he was being booked as a heel, not as the innocent victim being beaten on for being gay/bisexual. If you wanted to raise the awareness of issues like this, you don't book the guy as the type of character everyone willingly boos – if anything, that perpetuates the same stereotypes. You book them as innocent victims looking to compete in the same ring regardless of sexual preference. From that point you can have top babyface guys come out to make saves for them and subsequently cut promos about another character being a bigot for not living and letting live.

Once again, I totally agree and this is exactly what I wanted to see with the OJ angle. It's a shame it went the way it did because this really could have been something big.

I do think, however, that they are doing a much better job incorporating an air of realism in their product, much more so than the WWE at least, because the seriousness of some of their recent angles far surpasses that which the WWE has done over the last two years.

I disagree here. The Nexus angle has been very realistic and smart. Seven rookies on a bullshit "reality" show get fed up with how they were treated, so they decide to wreck things until they get the contracts they felt they deserved. The angle a few years aback where Orton attacked the McMahon family was very entertaining and had some realism and personal feelings.

The angle they ran with Abyss & Lauren v. Stevie Richards/Raven & Daffney was fantastically based on realism, and invoked as much emotion as I thought it could. While most folks don't particularly care for Abyss as a character (myself included), the angle itself that he was involved in I thought was a success.

Once more, agreed.

The Angle/Anderson feud was probably the best based-on-realism angle they've done in the last four years as a company. The whole fight over disrespect regarding Anderson's apathetic reaction/behaviors toward the troops and the value of Angle's "warrior medal" combined with the over-the-top aspects of him carving Angle up with it and spitting on him/it I thought brought out the very best in those two. For that two-month period, that was the greatest thing happening in pro-wrestling.

I was VERY complimentary of the Angle/Anderson feud, which occurred a little while after I originally made this thread. It was EXACTLY what I wanted and I think that TNA needs to base all of their programming around this sort of feud, in order to take full advantage of their TV-14 rating and to differentiate themselves from the WWE.

Hell, I'd even go so far as to say that the Wolfe/Angle feud did much of the same. The focus on Kurt's neck being the crux of the entire thing was fantastically "real", and I don't think there's a fan on earth who couldn't say that TNA sold the entire angle incredibly well when Wolfe used the Tower of London (for the first time in TNA) on Angle in the middle of the ring to close iMPACT! while Tenay somberly reminded the world of Angle's previous neck injuries.

It helps that Kurt Angle is fan-freaking-tastic.

Oh, and who could forget the Hernandez/Morgan incident with the Carbon Foot Print to the side of Hernandez' head against the ring post that saw EMT's carry Herndandez out of the building in what dozens of fans weren't even sure was a work. That wasn't realism?

I don't really remember that, so I'll take your word for it.

I agree, but I'd also go so far as to say that the "shock TV" angles they've been accused of in recent history have seemingly gone by the wayside in place of much more deep-seeded character relationships and realism of late.

As of late, however there are still problems. Poor KO division.

You and I are on the same page here. Thanks a lot for your response.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

The thing is, there's a difference between angles where you can't see the finish line and illogical angles. To use a WWE example: The Nexus is an unpredictable angle that makes us think, but it still is clear what their motivation is. We just don't know where it's going. An example of an "illogical" WWE angle would be Pretty Ricky. It had no real explanation, so the fans were made to come up with crazy explanations...as in, bad, ridiculous crazy explanations. It had no foreseeable payoff other than to bury one of their most over stars (R-Truth), and was just...bad.

A better example would be McMahon's accident at Million Dollar Mania. There was no payoff, he simply just showed up on RAW and was just fine, even though it seemed to be built up as a "whodunit" story. Sort of like Samoa Joe getting kidnapped by ninjas.

Not really. Their motivation was to get contracts, which they got, so what's their motivation now? Quite unknown, really. You could say it's "respect", but that's just as implied as the Deception angle with Sting, or the "They" angle with Abyss/Joe.

The thing is, "Good guy vs. bad guy" is the most fundamental element of stories everywhere. Yes, I want to think. Yes, I want deep and complicated stories. But all those stories should be built on the same basic premise of Good Guy vs. Bad Guy, because that's just how things are. You can make a villainous hero and a sympathetic villain, but the fact remains that someone who wants to blow up the world still wants to blow up the world whether he was abused as a child or not.

Sure, but "good guy v. bad guy" doesn't need to be as contrived as the WWE tends to make it out to be. The deeper the storyline, generally speaking, the more convoluted and complex the "good guy v. bad guy" aspects get – see Austin v. Hart for the best possible explanation of that. Neither fully fulfilled the cliché of being 100% "good guy" or 100% "bad guy".

These have been fairly decent.

Agreed.

For all the wrong reasons. Why would ECW want to invade TNA? Why would Tommy Dreamer and Raven be on the same side despite hating each other since childhood? Why is this even happening? Questions like this are questions about plot holes. Plot holes are never good.

Maybe, but it's pretty difficult to gauge the potential ramifications/repercussions of the ECW invasion that hasn't actually come to fruition yet. Either way, it certainly makes everyone think about just how this whole thing will pan out.

Why would Tommy Dreamer and Raven side one another despite being life-long rivals? Well, why did they in the WCW Invasion angle? The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

They're only "plot holes" right now because you don't have the full picture. If you read a book and don't conclude it, does that mean the entirety of the book is a plot hole, or perhaps are you judging the value of the book as a whole before you've actually completed reading it?

Anderson is something very good about TNA. Always been a fan.

Agreed. Finally fulfilling his potential, if you ask me.

True. Except Austin never got kidnapped by ninjas.

Neither did Joe – he was kid-napped by men in ski-masks.

COMPLETELY agree.

Thumbs up.

Once again, I totally agree and this is exactly what I wanted to see with the OJ angle. It's a shame it went the way it did because this really could have been something big.

They shot themselves in the foot on that one if ya ask me. OJ could have been a tremendous player if they just let him run that angle as a face like I noted. Would have really played well on the realism of homophobia/gay rights.

I disagree here. The Nexus angle has been very realistic and smart. Seven rookies on a bullshit "reality" show get fed up with how they were treated, so they decide to wreck things until they get the contracts they felt they deserved. The angle a few years aback where Orton attacked the McMahon family was very entertaining and had some realism and personal feelings.

Sure, both are based off realism, but what else besides those two truly has been? The Nexus angle is probably the closest one they've run that didn't seem entirely contrived IMO.

Once more, agreed.

Thumbs up.

I was VERY complimentary of the Angle/Anderson feud, which occurred a little while after I originally made this thread. It was EXACTLY what I wanted and I think that TNA needs to base all of their programming around this sort of feud, in order to take full advantage of their TV-14 rating and to differentiate themselves from the WWE.

Couldn't possibly agree more. Unfortunately I'm not entirely sold that everyone on TNA's roster is as capable of telling a story as well as Angle is. The guy is a total phenom.

It helps that Kurt Angle is fan-freaking-tastic.

Best wrestler on the planet!

I don't really remember that, so I'll take your word for it.

In essence, they built up dissension between Hernandez & Morgan who were tag-team partners by having them drop a few matches in a row due to internal conflicts between the two. Hernandez was the obvious baby-face and Morgan was going heel again. Eventually Morgan turned on Hernandez, beat him down, positioned him against the ring-post outside and performed his "Carbon Footprint" finisher on him so it looked as though Hernandez' head was busted open on the pipe – EMT's came down and the announcing team "Owen Harted" the entire event which made it seem ultra-real –*so much so to the point that quite a few fans on the forum at the time (in the LD) and a number at ring-side looked/sounded legitimately concerned whether it was a work or real. Absolutely fantastic. One of the best angles they've ever done to invoke emotion like that.

As of late, however there are still problems. Poor KO division.

I agree, but the KO division has never really been a big-time draw at all for pro-wrestling in general, so while it does suck to see something that was so successful before continue on in such a dreadful state, I'm not overly concerned with how they book it.

You and I are on the same page here. Thanks a lot for your response.

Cheers, bud.