I see it now, why everybody hates Cena

[Slyfox696]

When I think of John Cena and whether or not he puts people over, I recall people like Rene Dupree, Kenzo Suzuki, Bull Buchanan and Rodney Mack. I realize that it's expecting a little too much of John Cena to make those names marketable, but even then I'll admit that my mind wanders to those examples because it's hard to think of people he's put over.

So you'll ignore CM Punk, Edge, Sheamus, Wade Barrett/NXT, Ryback, Miz, Umaga, and others to remember people from before Cena had even won his first championship? I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from. Heck, with the exception of Dupree, I don't think any of those guys were even on the roster at Wrestlemania 21.

While I can already picture the arguments a more intelligent John Cena fan would make regarding how legitimate my examples are, I have a hard time picturing any names that are famous thanks to a rub from John Cena.

See above and you're welcome.

Putting someone over doesn't mean making them famous, it means making them seen as a legitimate threat. Almost everyone Cena has worked with has left a feud with Cena looking like a legitimate threat. But what many people DON'T understand is that Cena is not responsible for what those wrestlers do after they leave a feud with Cena. Take Wade Barrett, for example. When he left his feud with Cena, Barrett looked like a world title contender. But Barrett clearly showed he didn't have the chops at the time to maintain his heat and so he fell off. It's not John Cena's fault Barrett couldn't keep his heat, John Cena gave Barrett his heat in the first place. After that, it's on the other worker to make something of himself.

I realize that being "put over" doesn't involve being immediately shot to the stars, it could just mean a momentary shine granted to someone after a clean loss. John Cena, to my knowledge, only ever gave up a clean definitive loss once to Randy Orton and once to Batista.

While Cena has cleanly lost to many others, putting someone over does not mean losing clean to them. Putting someone over, as I said above, means making the other person noticeably better off than they were before.

Take Cena's match with Brock Lesnar at Extreme Rules, for example. Did Cena win the match? Yes, but only after Lesnar basically dismantled Cena the entire match, once again establishing Lesnar as one of professional wrestling's greatest badasses. That match was far more about putting Lesnar over than Cena, who squeaked out a win.

Maybe I'm just an old fuddy duddy. Meanings of terms most definitely change over time and conversational English is indeed an ever evolving language. If my definition of being "put over" is outdated, I apologize.

Not outdated, just incorrect. No big deal though, it's not uncommon for people to get wrestling terms incorrect.

I agree that Hogan was a very smart man when it came to keeping his image spotless for the majority of his WWF run, how he did that was not what I would call an effort to put other people over. I know that you didn't directly reference Hogan while on the subject of putting people over, but you did say that he doesn't try to keep people down. I have two names for us to debate in regard to that point, Paul Orndorff and Kevin Sullivan.

Hogan is not responsible for those guys staying over, he's only responsible for making them legitimate. He did that. For goodness sake, he made ZEUS look like a monster and that had to take major work. Earthquake was just a big fat guy, but his feud with Hogan gave him a wrestling career (and a much bigger paycheck) for years.

John Cena is also a very smart man when it comes to maintaining his image in a marketable way. He's the number one merchandise seller for the WWE and that isn't an accident. Staying on top can mean that you make sure that nobody comes close to looking better than you, I'm of the opinion that John doesn't put people over based on that reasoning.

And I'm of the opinion your opinion is definitely wrong. John Cena makes people look like a million bucks in the ring. It was just a couple weeks ago when he made Cesaro look like the real deal.

Comparing John to just about anyone else in history, he's put more people over?

Yes. There may be a few wrestlers where you can have an incredibly lengthy debate on who's put over more workers, but there is almost no one you can say clearly put over more workers than Cena.

Ric Flair was the pro-wrestling world's quintessential performer at one time

Ric Flair was an average worker. With a few exceptions, he worked basically the same match over and over and over again, with the same spots. Half the time you watch a Flair match you think "why in the world he do that?" because he'll do things which kill the momentum of the match or kill the heat of the match, many times because he feels like he has to get one of his cartoonish spots into the match.

He was the NWA Champion, and damn near everybody knew it because he traveled all over the country to promote the regional promotions.

Which is why he was NWA Champion. Much like many workers of the time, Flair would work briefly in a region before moving on before his act became stale.

Ric Flair put over Jerry Lawler in Tennessee by making him look like a tougher man, Ric Flair put over Kerry Von Erich in Texas by dropping the NWA title to him CLEAN, Ric Flair put over Sting by kicking him out of the Four Horsemen and subsequently let Sting look like the tougher man in every classic bout they ever had,

There's no doubt Flair's appeal to the NWA was his willingness to go to different promotions and let their top guy "win" (even if Flair would escape with the title). And certainly working with someone of Flair's reputation would help the guy he was working with.

Ric Flair dropped the WWF World Heavyweight Championship to Bret Hart CLEAN.

What show was that on? I can't find it on any television show or any PPV.

Of course I'm being sarcastic, because I assume we both know it wasn't on TV or PPV. It was at a house show in Canada.

I realize that you're not someone to be taken lightly in a debate, but don't make it easy by suggesting that any of John's examples of supposedly putting people over even hold a candle to history's most famous icons.

I'm not sure what you consider "easy", but if you consider me telling the truth as "easy", then sure?

John Cena has put over more workers than just about anyone in wrestling history.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

So you'll ignore CM Punk, Edge, Sheamus, Wade Barrett/NXT, Ryback, Miz, Umaga, and others to remember people from before Cena had even won his first championship? I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from. Heck, with the exception of Dupree, I don't think any of those guys were even on the roster at Wrestlemania 21.

See above and you're welcome.

Putting someone over doesn't mean making them famous, it means making them seen as a legitimate threat. Almost everyone Cena has worked with has left a feud with Cena looking like a legitimate threat. But what many people DON'T understand is that Cena is not responsible for what those wrestlers do after they leave a feud with Cena. Take Wade Barrett, for example. When he left his feud with Cena, Barrett looked like a world title contender. But Barrett clearly showed he didn't have the chops at the time to maintain his heat and so he fell off. It's not John Cena's fault Barrett couldn't keep his heat, John Cena gave Barrett his heat in the first place. After that, it's on the other worker to make something of himself.

I would argue some of those examples, although your definition of 'putting someone over' is bang on.

Umaga... was probably worse off after losing to Cena, but then again a monster character like Umaga was always meant to put over the babyface champ, not be put over himself. He was built up as the unstoppable monster, and he loses his luster once he's proven to be stoppable (in this case by Cena).

Miz... seemed like less of a threat after being done with Cena. Thank both being booked as the third wheel to the Cena/Rock show, and the fact that he was never good enough to be at that level for that.

Punk and Edge... already showed they belonged at the top before Cena. In both cases, Cena just happened to be the guy at the top to give them that final push... although to his credit he embraced it with both guys, unlike say a Triple H/Booker T scenario.

Ryback... seemed more to me like he lost the last bit of mystique behind his character after Cena.

Take Cena's match with Brock Lesnar at Extreme Rules, for example. Did Cena win the match? Yes, but only after Lesnar basically dismantled Cena the entire match, once again establishing Lesnar as one of professional wrestling's greatest badasses. That match was far more about putting Lesnar over than Cena, who squeaked out a win.

Very good example, and great work by both to keep both guys looking strong afterwards.

Hogan is not responsible for those guys staying over, he's only responsible for making them legitimate. He did that. For goodness sake, he made ZEUS look like a monster and that had to take major work. Earthquake was just a big fat guy, but his feud with Hogan gave him a wrestling career (and a much bigger paycheck) for years.

Well in Zeus's case, I think the fact that they sent him out there, and told him to no sell everything, had a little bit to do with him looking like a monster. Credit to Hogan for selling that as well as he could... but even as a kid that feud was just about as phoney as they came.

Also Earthquake was just a fat guy who got a career because of Hogan? Bullshit. Quake was a hell of a talent. The guy could work. THAT's what gave him a career. Lots of big guys went up against Hogan. A lot of them didn't do as well for themselves during or after as Tenta did. Don't be fooled by the fact that he kept getting given bad gimmicks after he left the WWE. He was a great talent, and would have done well for himself if he'd never crossed paths with Hogan.

And I'm of the opinion your opinion is definitely wrong. John Cena makes people look like a million bucks in the ring. It was just a couple weeks ago when he made Cesaro look like the real deal.

Sami Zayn makes Cesaro look like the real deal too. Probably because Cesaro IS the real deal. Another great talent.

Yes. There may be a few wrestlers where you can have an incredibly lengthy debate on who's put over more workers, but there is almost no one you can say clearly put over more workers than Cena.

Of course. If he wasn't, he'd have never been on top as long as he has been. He'd have killed the business being on top for so long if he was just chewing up everyone he faced.

Ric Flair was an average worker. With a few exceptions, he worked basically the same match over and over and over again, with the same spots. Half the time you watch a Flair match you think "why in the world he do that?" because he'll do things which kill the momentum of the match or kill the heat of the match, many times because he feels like he has to get one of his cartoonish spots into the match.

I get the feeling that your Ric Flair experience comes more from the later part of his career. Flair was anything but an 'average' worker. The guy was one of the best. Check him out against Steamboat, Race, Wahoo, Valentine, Funk, Rhodes... well I could keep going on but you get the point.

Did he have his cartoon spots? Yes he did... but so do guys like Cena (5 knuckle shuffle?) Did he work the same match too often? Later on yes he did... but so do most guys at his level after a while. Keep in mind the time that Flair is from. All the guys did the same matches night after night back then, because they were working so much it was just easier that way, and because every match wasn't available to anyone to watch anytime, so they could get away with it. He did mix it up when it called for it though (Steamboat series is a perfect example of this).

Which is why he was NWA Champion. Much like many workers of the time, Flair would work briefly in a region before moving on before his act became stale.

You don't really have a great understanding of the NWA champion if you think Flair would have to briefly work a region before moving because his 'act would get stale'. If that was the case, the board never would have kept going back to him. His appearances in the various NWA territories were always highly anticipated, because his act never got stale.

There's no doubt Flair's appeal to the NWA was his willingness to go to different promotions and let their top guy "win" (even if Flair would escape with the title). And certainly working with someone of Flair's reputation would help the guy he was working with.

Of course, that was the main duty of the NWA champion, and something that Flair was not only more than happy to do, but also very good at. That alone also goes against your argument that he was just an average worker, because it takes a great worker to be able to put people over like Flair did while staying strong himself... and Flair was the best at it.

What show was that on? I can't find it on any television show or any PPV.

Of course I'm being sarcastic, because I assume we both know it wasn't on TV or PPV. It was at a house show in Canada.

Actually it was a TV taping... they just didn't air it for whatever reason (I think it's on a Coliseum video somewhere though).

 

[Slyfox696]

Umaga... was probably worse off after losing to Cena

Umaga's reputation soared during his feud with Cena. As I said, Cena is not responsible for what a wrestler does after his feud with Cena.

Miz... seemed like less of a threat after being done with Cena.

Miz was working the undercard against Jerry Lawler as WWE Champion before Cena. Cena put him over in a big way. Just because Miz wasn't good enough to maintain his heat, that's not Cena's problem.

Punk and Edge... already showed they belonged at the top before Cena.

But they didn't, that's the point. The WWE pushed Edge hard for YEARS, but it wasn't until he entered a feud with Cena that he was finally seen as main-event material. Punk had already had a title run, but it wasn't until his "pipe bomb" and subsequent feud with John Cena that he truly became main-event material.

Ryback... seemed more to me like he lost the last bit of mystique behind his character after Cena.

Ryback was a legitimate threat in the main-event with Cena. Again, Cena cannot help what they do with their heat after their fued is over.

Well in Zeus's case, I think the fact that they sent him out there, and told him to no sell everything, had a little bit to do with him looking like a monster.

But it only works if the other guy is willing to put him over as a monster. That's the point. If Hogan had said, "No, I'm the WWE Champion, have been leading this company for 6 or 7 years and made you a bunch of money, I'm not making this guy no one has heard of look like an unbeatable monster", then Zeus would never have been a monster.

Also Earthquake was just a fat guy who got a career because of Hogan? Bullshit. Quake was a hell of a talent.

Earthquake was an average talent who had credibility because of Hogan.

He was a great talent, and would have done well for himself if he'd never crossed paths with Hogan.

Because of Hogan, he looked incredible and he made a whole lot more money. Without Hogan making him look strong, that wouldn't happen.

Sami Zayn makes Cesaro look like the real deal too. Probably because Cesaro IS the real deal. Another great talent.

But it doesn't matter whether someone is solid in the ring, what matters is the fans perception of him. Cesaro beating a minor leaguer doesn't do much at all for Cesaro. Cesaro working an incredibly competitive match with the #1 guy in the company does.

I get the feeling that your Ric Flair experience comes more from the later part of his career.

The WWE Network exists. Go back and watch his earlier work, you'll see the same thing you saw in the 90s and again in the 00s.

Flair was anything but an 'average' worker.

He was average.

Did he have his cartoon spots? Yes he did... but so do guys like Cena (5 knuckle shuffle?)

There's a difference between a 5 knuckle shuffle and flipping upside down in the corner. One makes sense in the reality of the match, the other makes no sense at all. And Cena doesn't do a 5 knuckle shuffle 7 times in a match, like Flair would fall on his face.

Did he work the same match too often? Later on yes he did... but so do most guys at his level after a while. Keep in mind the time that Flair is from. All the guys did the same matches night after night back then, because they were working so much it was just easier that way, and because every match wasn't available to anyone to watch anytime, so they could get away with it.

He also worked the same match because it was easier to do with the variety of opponents he had to work with. I get that. But it doesn't change the fact it's what happened.

You don't really have a great understanding of the NWA champion if you think Flair would have to briefly work a region before moving because his 'act would get stale'. If that was the case, the board never would have kept going back to him. His appearances in the various NWA territories were always highly anticipated, because his act never got stale.

They never got stale because he worked the different territories. Like you just said, wrestlers weren't exposed to the same degree they are today. Part of that is television, but it's also the nature of the territories. The guys from those days freely state that was the case.

Of course, that was the main duty of the NWA champion, and something that Flair was not only more than happy to do, but also very good at. That alone also goes against your argument that he was just an average worker, because it takes a great worker to be able to put people over like Flair did while staying strong himself... and Flair was the best at it.

But it doesn't go against my argument, because Flair stayed strong because of his reputation, not because of his work. That's the point.

Actually it was a TV taping... they just didn't air it for whatever reason (I think it's on a Coliseum video somewhere though).

It was essentially a house show they were going to air for Prime Time Wrestling (I think that's right) and they didn't because the match was not good. But the point is Flair didn't put over Hart clean, he did it on a non-PPV show in front of a small audience on an episode which never aired. He could have done it at Survivor Series, but didn't.

 

[enviousdominous]

So you'll ignore CM Punk, Edge, Sheamus, Wade Barrett/NXT, Ryback, Miz, Umaga, and others to remember people from before Cena had even won his first championship? I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from. Heck, with the exception of Dupree, I don't think any of those guys were even on the roster at Wrestlemania 21.

See above and you're welcome.

CM Punk was already over on his own accord, his two wins against John Cena were indecisive in that one was due to an outside distraction and one was due to referee error. CM Punk gave John a clean win after the fact.

John Cena kicked out of Edge's spear, AFTER he had already won an Elimination Chamber. Kicking out of someone's finisher is a huge taboo, and doing that to Edge didn't help Edge look stronger as a champion. Edge was already over before any of this.

Sheamus defeated John Cena for the WWE title because John carelessly fell into a table. John never went out of his way to make Sheamus look good by comparison, their encounters always ended indecisively unless John was beating Sheamus.

The only person who benefited from John Cena's involvement with Nexus was John Cena. Wade Barret played his role to a T, and was rewarded by playing a part in the Miz winning the WWE championship. Wade Barrett isn't any more popular for having been involved in an angle with John Cena.

Ryback was the last man that Cena eliminated in the 2013 Royal Rumble, I was there and the floor was vibrating because the FEED ME MORE chants were so loud. He was promptly eliminated by John Cena, and that's all there was. Ryback never earned a higher spot on the card for complimenting John Cena, he's never been more irrelevant than he is today. I'm not saying that it's all John's fault, but we're talking about people who John supposedly helped.

The Miz was Vince McMahon's darling prospect, Vince loved the guy with all his heart and had great plans for him. He only ever defeated John Cena because it was a means of setting up Cena vs Rock, again it was an example of working with John Cena and having nothing positive to show for it. If anything, retaining the belt at Wrestlemania made Miz look even weaker.

Umaga was another of Vince's favorites. Shawn Michaels laid down for Umaga, HHH laid down for Umaga, John Cena... used that momentum to promote himself by decisively defeating Umaga. Umaga was being built as an unstoppable monster bent on becoming the world champion, and all that build was destroyed when he couldn't beat John Cena. Do you remember what Umaga did after losing to John Cena? Neither does anybody else.

You don't understand why I brought up names like Kenzo Suzuki, Bull Buchanan or Rodney Mack? These were guys who helped make Cena look good before he was granted his spot at the top, and the favor wasn't in any way reciprocated. In their examples, they sacrificed their public image to make John Cena look better on tv.

Putting someone over doesn't mean making them famous, it means making them seen as a legitimate threat. Almost everyone Cena has worked with has left a feud with Cena looking like a legitimate threat. But what many people DON'T understand is that Cena is not responsible for what those wrestlers do after they leave a feud with Cena. Take Wade Barrett, for example. When he left his feud with Cena, Barrett looked like a world title contender. But Barrett clearly showed he didn't have the chops at the time to maintain his heat and so he fell off. It's not John Cena's fault Barrett couldn't keep his heat, John Cena gave Barrett his heat in the first place. After that, it's on the other worker to make something of himself.

Putting someone over means many different things, to include making them famous. Sure, if you make someone appear to be worthy of the world title picture then you've made them more famous for that.

Let's look at how Wade Barrett appeared after his feud with John Cena. John Cena wasn't just in a program with Wade Barrett, he was in a program with Wade Barrett and six of his henchmen. As I remember it, John Cena came out on top by the end of this saga. Wade wasn't able to defeat Randy Orton even with John playing the referee who would be fired if Randy won, and he was subsequently written off tv while creative focused on CM Punk, Cena, Orton and The Miz. Most importantly, the program was written around John Cena's heartfelt retirement speech and his returning later that night to even the odds for Randy Orton. Wade was hardly the focus of any of that saga, and in the end it was more an effort to show that Wade isn't on Cena or Orton's level than it was to put Wade over as a heel.

While Cena has cleanly lost to many others, putting someone over does not mean losing clean to them. Putting someone over, as I said above, means making the other person noticeably better off than they were before.

Than they were before, indeed. None of your examples looked better than they did before for their involvement with John Cena. Putting someone over CAN mean losing clean to someone, it would most certainly make them look like they can hang on the main card thus making them look better than the did before.

Take Cena's match with Brock Lesnar at Extreme Rules, for example. Did Cena win the match? Yes, but only after Lesnar basically dismantled Cena the entire match, once again establishing Lesnar as one of professional wrestling's greatest badasses. That match was far more about putting Lesnar over than Cena, who squeaked out a win.

Cena heat was at an all time high around that time, and John had just laid down for The Rock. When you have someone like Brock Lesnar, the fans won't accept anything other than his dominating most of the match. Brock Lesnar's image didn't change for jobbing to Cena, it was Cena's reward for laying down for The Rock and Brock was just there for the paycheck and to exorcise his demons for going out so unceremoniously from UFC.

It was most certainly not an example of Cena putting someone over. Brock was already over, if anything it was Brock who helped make Cena hated a little less by busting his lip open in the promo and by being so frank in his interviews. People would have been excited to see Brock wrestle anyone on the card, people were more excited to see Cena perform because it was against Brock Lesnar.

Not outdated, just incorrect. No big deal though, it's not uncommon for people to get wrestling terms incorrect.

Oh good grief, you make it really difficult to be nice to you.

All I have to say about your assessment that my definition of the term "put over" is incorrect, is that it's a subjective term. You think that you can only put someone over by making them look better than they did before, I agree and I don't see how that description contradicts any description I've given. If you think I'm incorrect, explain why.

Hogan is not responsible for those guys staying over, he's only responsible for making them legitimate. He did that. For goodness sake, he made ZEUS look like a monster and that had to take major work. Earthquake was just a big fat guy, but his feud with Hogan gave him a wrestling career (and a much bigger paycheck) for years.

Everyone got a bigger paycheck thanks to Hogan and Cena. That doesn't relate to whether or not they've kept their opponents down.

John Tenta was one hell of a talent, rest his soul. He was also a very nice guy who I had the pleasure of meeting a few times in my life, I have no doubt you'd be nicer in how you remember him if you had ever met him. His ability to perform for a guy of his size was what gave him a wrestling career, I'll admit that his feud with Hogan made him famous. Hogan wasn't just making some "big fat guy" look good in the ring, John Tenta was going out of his way to make Hogan look better than we already thought he was. Thanks to someone who unto you is "just a big fat guy" Hogan looked better and everyone got their bigger pay checks.

And I'm of the opinion your opinion is definitely wrong. John Cena makes people look like a million bucks in the ring. It was just a couple weeks ago when he made Cesaro look like the real deal.

You'll have to help me out here, how exactly did John Cena make Cesaro look like the real deal?

I recall Randy Orton actually giving a win to Cesaro. Cesaro already looked like a million bucks to fans like me, his win made him look even better for it.

Yes. There may be a few wrestlers where you can have an incredibly lengthy debate on who's put over more workers, but there is almost no one you can say clearly put over more workers than Cena.

Almost no one? I gave you an example in Ric Flair. You want some more examples?

Antonio Inoki put over more workers than John Cena. Harley Race put over more workers than John Cena. Sting put over more workers than John Cena. Bret Hart put over more workers than John Cena. Shawn Michaels put over more people than John Cena. Kurt Angle put over more people than John Cena.

Ric Flair was an average worker. With a few exceptions, he worked basically the same match over and over and over again, with the same spots. Half the time you watch a Flair match you think "why in the world he do that?" because he'll do things which kill the momentum of the match or kill the heat of the match, many times because he feels like he has to get one of his cartoonish spots into the match.

You're a John Cena fan, and you're criticizing a performer as having worked the same redundant match with the same spots?

I take it back, you're a fucking idiot and a typical dumb-ass Cena mark. I'll explain why.

You don't just trash the reputation of a guy like Flair just because his spots don't impress you, especially not as an argument about whether or not he put people over in his career. If you're that fucking desperate to grasp at straws for a rebuttal to the suggestion that Flair put over more people than Cena, then this entire effort on my part has been wasted on a worthless fuck like you.

When I saw Ric Flair doing one of his "cartoonish" spots when up against an opponent like Hogan or Sting I would think "I hope they beat the Hell out of him" because that's how he put over his opponents. He was current for his time and it doesn't surprise me that a pathetic shit stain like you doesn't respect him. Flair didn't perform the way he did because he was so desperate to look silly to a fucking idiot like you, he did so to make his opponents look good and his opponents looked damn good after working with him.

Which is why he was NWA Champion. Much like many workers of the time, Flair would work briefly in a region before moving on before his act became stale.

Flair was NWA champion because the fans mandated as much and because other top names respected him. When the fans mandated that he drop the belt to Dusty, he was happy to oblige.

No shit, NWA champions at the time had to move a lot. He didn't go to different regions to keep his act fresh, he went to different regions to put over the talent of those regions.

There's no doubt Flair's appeal to the NWA was his willingness to go to different promotions and let their top guy "win" (even if Flair would escape with the title). And certainly working with someone of Flair's reputation would help the guy he was working with.

Flair's appeal was in that he was an excellent entertainer. Flair was loved by his fans because his promos were catchy and because his matches were epic. He used that appeal to make other performers look good based on their own abilities, in the end they would look even better after the fact because Flair proved to the crowd that they were legit.

What show was that on? I can't find it on any television show or any PPV.

Of course I'm being sarcastic, because I assume we both know it wasn't on TV or PPV. It was at a house show in Canada.

I'm not sure what you consider "easy", but if you consider me telling the truth as "easy", then sure?

John Cena has put over more workers than just about anyone in wrestling history.

Thank you, you stupid fucking moron. Your argument that John Cena has put over more workers than just about anyone in wrestling history is substantiated based on the fact that Ric Flair didn't drop the belt to Bret Hart on tv.

Ric Flair was the champion and he dropped the belt to Bret Hart clean, Bret Hart was the WWF Champion thanks to Ric's willingness to be a professional. No, it wasn't on tv. Does that diminish the contribution to Bret Hart's record? To a stupid piece of shit like you, sure. To fans like me who want to see the most over performer get his due, it was an awesome contribution that speaks damn well of Flair as a performer.

Stating your opinion that John Cena *ugh* "has put over more workers than just about anyone else in wrestling history" is telling the truth, and as you made that statement it therefore makes it a self-evident argument? I apologize for ever having faith in your ability to make an intelligent argument, you're obviously too fucking stupid to conclude your own thoughts with a valid example and too arrogant to admit to yourself that you somehow managed to lower the bar of intellect on this forum.

The only truth you've expressed is that, as I've said before, anybody over the age of 12 that marks for Cena is a fucking moron.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Umaga's reputation soared during his feud with Cena. As I said, Cena is not responsible for what a wrestler does after his feud with Cena.

He peaked during his feud with Cena. Because he was built to put over Cena. It wasn't Cena's job to put him over and keep him strong. That's my point, and he isn't a case of Cena putting someone over.

Miz was working the undercard against Jerry Lawler as WWE Champion before Cena. Cena put him over in a big way. Just because Miz wasn't good enough to maintain his heat, that's not Cena's problem.

Miz also wasn't good enough to be in the spot he was. For Cena to be putting him over, he should have left that program strong... which he didn't. He left it being fully exposed as a guy that simply never was main event material.

But they didn't, that's the point. The WWE pushed Edge hard for YEARS, but it wasn't until he entered a feud with Cena that he was finally seen as main-event material. Punk had already had a title run, but it wasn't until his "pipe bomb" and subsequent feud with John Cena that he truly became main-event material.

Cena was Edge's first real taste of the main event scene, but he'd been built up for it for years. Punk broke through with the pipe bomb, which wasn't really about Cena putting him over. Cena just happened to be the champ at the time.

Ryback was a legitimate threat in the main-event with Cena. Again, Cena cannot help what they do with their heat after their fued is over.

Ryback was a legitimate threat when he subbed in for an injured Cena against Punk. By the time he'd finished jobbing to Cena, he was done as being a guy that could be a main eventer.

But it only works if the other guy is willing to put him over as a monster. That's the point. If Hogan had said, "No, I'm the WWE Champion, have been leading this company for 6 or 7 years and made you a bunch of money, I'm not making this guy no one has heard of look like an unbeatable monster", then Zeus would never have been a monster.

Yeah Hogan could have said no to working with Zeus... just like he did for others (like Bret Hart). But you're leaving out the entire reason for Zeus. He was there to promote the movie he starred in with Hogan. Why would Hogan refuse to work with a guy who's job was to promote the movie Hogan was the star of, and who wasn't going to work in wrestling after the promotion was done? That feud had zero to do with putting over Zeus, and everything to do with selling tickets for a movie Hogan starred in.

Earthquake was an average talent who had credibility because of Hogan.

So... so wrong.

Because of Hogan, he looked incredible and he made a whole lot more money. Without Hogan making him look strong, that wouldn't happen.

Both Hogan and Quake benefited from working together. Hogan looked strong by working with a credible monster heel... and Quake worked the biggest program of his career. You've got it a little backwards. The monsters like Quake who worked with Hogan were the guys that helped keep Hogan strong and credible. That was their job, and the entire point of the monster heel. The best ones, like Quake was... were able to stay strong after being fed to Hogan. Others, like guys like Kamala or Teijo Kahn, weren't as fortunate.

But it doesn't matter whether someone is solid in the ring, what matters is the fans perception of him. Cesaro beating a minor leaguer doesn't do much at all for Cesaro. Cesaro working an incredibly competitive match with the #1 guy in the company does.

It absolutely matters if someone is solid in the ring. That is the surest fire way for the fans to get a positive perception of a wrestler. And Cesaro beating that 'minor leaguer' didn't do much for him? I disagree. I feel that seeing how he worked with that 'minor leaguer' helped show the WWE what they have with him, and helped earn him his latest push.

The WWE Network exists. Go back and watch his earlier work, you'll see the same thing you saw in the 90s and again in the 00s.

Believe me, I think I've seen a few more Flair matches than you have judging on your opinion of him.

I find it ironic though, that you're putting down Flair for working the same match over and over... but you're one of the biggest Hogan apologists around. THERE's a guy who always worked the same match. You basically had to watch him in Japan to ever see him deviate from his normal routine.

He was average.

He wasn't. Not by a mile.

There's a difference between a 5 knuckle shuffle and flipping upside down in the corner. One makes sense in the reality of the match, the other makes no sense at all. And Cena doesn't do a 5 knuckle shuffle 7 times in a match, like Flair would fall on his face.

Haha.

Which one makes sense in the 'reality' of a match? The guy getting thrown so hard into the corner that he flips over backwards upon impact? Or the guy who's opponent lies prone for what seems like forever, while the other guy bounces off the ropes, does a little two step, stops still over top of him, brushes off his knuckles before dropping a fist on the still prone guy?

Both are ridiculous spots (like the Flair face spot). Flair's at least had a sense of psychology to them (both cases the psychology being that his opponent hammered him that bad).

He also worked the same match because it was easier to do with the variety of opponents he had to work with. I get that. But it doesn't change the fact it's what happened.

Like I said though... the same was true with most guys back then (Hogan included... and Cena included today). Like I also said though, when necessary, Flair could break out different classics with different opponents.

They never got stale because he worked the different territories. Like you just said, wrestlers weren't exposed to the same degree they are today. Part of that is television, but it's also the nature of the territories. The guys from those days freely state that was the case.

Yes that's partly true. That is why wrestlers weren't as exposed in the territory days. One thing you need to keep in mind when you claim that Flair moved around as champ to avoid getting stale. His home territory was in the Carolina's. He worked there for a ridiculously long time for that era... and was on top for a ridiculously long time. He never got stale working there. If this was a danger with Flair... then he wouldn't have been able to work like he did in the Carolina's for as long as he did.

But it doesn't go against my argument, because Flair stayed strong because of his reputation, not because of his work. That's the point.

No it does... because Flair gained his reputation because of his work. The guy is generally regarded, by his peers of the time, by the media of the time, by fans of the time... by virtually everyone, as one of the best period from that time. That includes his ring work.

It was essentially a house show they were going to air for Prime Time Wrestling (I think that's right) and they didn't because the match was not good. But the point is Flair didn't put over Hart clean, he did it on a non-PPV show in front of a small audience on an episode which never aired. He could have done it at Survivor Series, but didn't.

I can't remember the exact deal behind the Flair/Hart match not being televised... I think there was something about the execution of the match that didn't play well. It might have been Flair being a dick about the whole thing too. I wouldn't argue that was a case where Flair put someone over clean (there were issues happening at the time that led to Flair leaving a few months later), but it's not proof that Flair didn't put people over like Cena does.

One of the biggest knocks against Flair was that he was too giving in the ring, and tried too hard to make people look good when he should have been more selfish considering his position. Flair was the guy who'd have a 15 minute match on TV with guys like George South, just because he liked making the underneath guys look good too.

You can say that no one in history has made more people look better than Cena has, and I don't disagree that Cena doesn't put a lot of guys over. But that statement just shows how far back your history actually goes... because NO ONE in history can make that claim like Ric Flair can.

 

[Rich the UK WWE Fan 2k14]

Now you're getting it? Cena should be heel. He could really become one of the all-time great Heels.

John Cena heel turn = won't happen, the IWC needs to stop begging for it cos it'll never happen.

 

[enviousdominous]

John Cena heel turn = won't happen, the IWC needs to stop begging for it cos it'll never happen.

I've been wanting to make a point on this for a while now.

I DON'T want John Cena to turn heel, and I've been accused of being the embodiment of the IWC.

I thoroughly enjoy seeing John Cena, the face, have to humble himself and take a lower spot on the card at such an iconic Wrestlemania because I hate him as a face.

I doubt if I'll suddenly change my mind if he becomes a heel. Either way, I'm going to boo him whether it's endearing or if it's because I'm bored of his act.

John Cena makes money by impressing his fan-base, and by drawing the heat of people like me who hate him as a face. They buy his shirts, I tune in to see him have to take a back seat to Daniel Bryan. If he goes heel then he loses his gullible fan-base, and I lose most of my interest in his character because he's just a boring dork if I don't hate him.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

CM Punk was already over on his own accord, his two wins against John Cena were indecisive in that one was due to an outside distraction and one was due to referee error. CM Punk gave John a clean win after the fact.

So was Hogan but everyone in the world says that Andre put over Hogan. And someone winning a later match after Cena was NEVER able to beat Punk for like two years doesn't diminish the fact the Cena lost to Punk.

John Cena kicked out of Edge's spear, AFTER he had already won an Elimination Chamber. Kicking out of someone's finisher is a huge taboo, and doing that to Edge didn't help Edge look stronger as a champion. Edge was already over before any of this.

Edge wasn't supposed to look overly strong. Edge was billed as the ultimate opportunist. Edge was supposed to be smarter than everyone else and he was. He got the best of Cena alot because he was smarter which he proved time and time again and got over quite well as a HEEL. Heels use dirty tactics to win. Edge beat Cena ALOT, and not a lot of people looked at Edge as a WWE champion before his matches with Cena. Now if you want to disagree with that, it's fine but Cena got Edge over to a new level no matter what.

Sheamus defeated John Cena for the WWE title because John carelessly fell into a table. John never went out of his way to make Sheamus look good by comparison, their encounters always ended indecisively unless John was beating Sheamus.

Except for the fact Sheamus was literally a nobody before this match. Him beating Cena was a shock. Him beating Cena clean without anyone else's help was a big deal for Sheamus. And apparently you've never watched a strong Face booked, because they hardly ever lose clean. That said yes that match made Sheamus a name, a WWE champion, and a new star.

The only person who benefited from John Cena's involvement with Nexus was John Cena. Wade Barret played his role to a T, and was rewarded by playing a part in the Miz winning the WWE championship. Wade Barrett isn't any more popular for having been involved in an angle with John Cena.

Bad booking isn't on Cena,

Ryback was the last man that Cena eliminated in the 2013 Royal Rumble, I was there and the floor was vibrating because the FEED ME MORE chants were so loud. He was promptly eliminated by John Cena, and that's all there was. Ryback never earned a higher spot on the card for complimenting John Cena, he's never been more irrelevant than he is today. I'm not saying that it's all John's fault, but we're talking about people who John supposedly helped.

I'd like to say none of it's his fault, Ryback is just awful, anyone that blames Cena for Ryback's lack of success needs to take a long hard look at Ryback.

The Miz was Vince McMahon's darling prospect, Vince loved the guy with all his heart and had great plans for him. He only ever defeated John Cena because it was a means of setting up Cena vs Rock, again it was an example of working with John Cena and having nothing positive to show for it. If anything, retaining the belt at Wrestlemania made Miz look even weaker.

Again Miz was never made to look strong. His gimmick wasn't about being strong, it was about being crafty and finding a way to win big matches, which he did. Cena only did what he was supposed to which was put over the heel. He did that, Miz lost the belt to CM Punk and couldn't gain traction again.

Umaga was another of Vince's favorites. Shawn Michaels laid down for Umaga, HHH laid down for Umaga, John Cena... used that momentum to promote himself by decisively defeating Umaga. Umaga was being built as an unstoppable monster bent on becoming the world champion, and all that build was destroyed when he couldn't beat John Cena. Do you remember what Umaga did after losing to John Cena? Neither does anybody else.

So Cena's supposed to demand that he loses to Umaga? You're missing the basic point of booking. Most of the time the Heel which Umaga was, needs a reason to be threatening to the strong face. Of course Umaga laid out HHH and HBK. It made it look like he had a great chance to beat Cena. They had a HELL of a match. Really good match, Cena didn't bury him, it seemed like after the Cena match they didn't have a lot for Umaga (in terms of the writing). But Cena shouldn't be demanding to put over Umaga who honestly could've had a better run but was never WWE champion material.

You don't understand why I brought up names like Kenzo Suzuki, Bull Buchanan or Rodney Mack? These were guys who helped make Cena look good before he was granted his spot at the top, and the favor wasn't in any way reciprocated. In their examples, they sacrificed their public image to make John Cena look better on tv.

They also could've been doing their jobs? Plus the fact that none of those guys did anything worth jack for the most part. So John Cena the 14 time world champion should be treated the same way as bull buchanan and Rodney Mack? It's not even close, Cena was built up to be the next big superstar.

Putting someone over means many different things, to include making them famous. Sure, if you make someone appear to be worthy of the world title picture then you've made them more famous for that.

By that definition everyone on WWE tv is famous, so is everyone over? Either way the fact is this. Cena made Sheamus' first run, he helped make Edge's first run, Punks run, yeah there are levels of over.

Let's look at how Wade Barrett appeared after his feud with John Cena. John Cena wasn't just in a program with Wade Barrett, he was in a program with Wade Barrett and six of his henchmen. As I remember it, John Cena came out on top by the end of this saga. Wade wasn't able to defeat Randy Orton even with John playing the referee who would be fired if Randy won, and he was subsequently written off tv while creative focused on CM Punk, Cena, Orton and The Miz. Most importantly, the program was written around John Cena's heartfelt retirement speech and his returning later that night to even the odds for Randy Orton. Wade was hardly the focus of any of that saga, and in the end it was more an effort to show that Wade isn't on Cena or Orton's level than it was to put Wade over as a heel.

Wade isn't on the level of Cena or Orton. Never was, not saying Wade is bad, but let's face facts he's not on that level and never was. He was a rookie(in the storyline) who got his spot to shine, some guys succeed some guys fail. Vince or someone in the back clearly saw something about Wade that wasn't right. Something they didn't like, a reason they didn't put him over. It's not on Cena.

Than they were before, indeed. None of your examples looked better than they did before for their involvement with John Cena. Putting someone over CAN mean losing clean to someone, it would most certainly make them look like they can hang on the main card thus making them look better than the did before.

Again Sheamus who was looked at like he had no chance to beat Cena did just that, and was a strong world champion after that. He looked better after the fact. Edge, wasn't on the ME level before he beat Cena and Edge was in the ME consistently for the rest of his career. Not only that but he might have been Cena's greatest rival. Edge was able to beat everyone based on his knowledge and intelligence, he showed that chiefly against Cena. It built his gimmick and helped establish him. If you can't see that, you're just trying to preserve your argument

Cena heat was at an all time high around that time, and John had just laid down for The Rock. When you have someone like Brock Lesnar, the fans won't accept anything other than his dominating most of the match. Brock Lesnar's image didn't change for jobbing to Cena, it was Cena's reward for laying down for The Rock and Brock was just there for the paycheck and to exorcise his demons for going out so unceremoniously from UFC.

It was most certainly not an example of Cena putting someone over. Brock was already over, if anything it was Brock who helped make Cena hated a little less by busting his lip open in the promo and by being so frank in his interviews. People would have been excited to see Brock wrestle anyone on the card, people were more excited to see Cena perform because it was against Brock Lesnar.

Agreed for the most part.

All I have to say about your assessment that my definition of the term "put over" is incorrect, is that it's a subjective term. You think that you can only put someone over by making them look better than they did before, I agree and I don't see how that description contradicts any description I've given. If you think I'm incorrect, explain why.

I agree as well and I think I've shown where that's happened. With a couple of examples. That said, Punk was known for that promo, that's the promo that got him over big time. But Cena did put him over in Chicago, after Punk took three AA's (making him look stronger than he had in his whole career) and it was relatively clean. Cena took his eye off the ball because he didn't want to win the wrong way. Punk took advantage.

Everyone got a bigger paycheck thanks to Hogan and Cena. That doesn't relate to whether or not they've kept their opponents down.

John Tenta was one hell of a talent, rest his soul. He was also a very nice guy who I had the pleasure of meeting a few times in my life, I have no doubt you'd be nicer in how you remember him if you had ever met him. His ability to perform for a guy of his size was what gave him a wrestling career, I'll admit that his feud with Hogan made him famous. Hogan wasn't just making some "big fat guy" look good in the ring, John Tenta was going out of his way to make Hogan look better than we already thought he was. Thanks to someone who unto you is "just a big fat guy" Hogan looked better and everyone got their bigger pay checks.

No I'm sorry but you're wrong. Hogan was against TONS of bigs guys and they all drew the same for the most part. He wasn't the cause of them making more money. Andre drew better with Hogan, Savage did the same, so did Warrior but Tenta was just another big guy that wasn't close to the people who actually helped get them bigger paychecks.

You'll have to help me out here, how exactly did John Cena make Cesaro look like the real deal?

Well people are talking about it as MOTY which would give Cesaro new fame, a bigger fame than he's ever had before. By your definition of putting someone over (that isn't mine btw) wouldn't that apply. And just by it being mentioned as a MOTY doesn't it give him a new level of fame?

You're a John Cena fan, and you're criticizing a performer as having worked the same redundant match with the same spots?

Cena and flair are very good at putting their spots into the context of every match. Cena's got alot better at it, Flair was always great at it. If you look now, Cena waits till later in the match to do the 5 knuckle shuffle, meaning he waits until it makes sense for the guy to be worn down. Cena gets more offense at the beginning of the match now to make his comeback look more realistic. Cena's improved alot lately.

You don't just trash the reputation of a guy like Flair just because his spots don't impress you, especially not as an argument about whether or not he put people over in his career. If you're that fucking desperate to grasp at straws for a rebuttal to the suggestion that Flair put over more people than Cena, then this entire effort on my part has been wasted on a worthless fuck like you.

Well Flair was a Heel and putting people over cleanly was his job but that said. Where did Ron Garvin go after beating Flair, no where. He jobbed the belt right back. Dusty Rhodes was already over. Harley Race was already over. Kerry Von Erich never reached his potential because Flair won the belt back in less than a month from him. It didn't make Kerry look strong, it made Flair look great though as he won the belt right back.

Sting and Steamboat I agree, he put over. But for the most part Flair didn't make other guys stars. This was not his fault. I think had Magnum TA beaten flair as was supposed to happen, he would've been one of the biggest stars ever.

But against Flair was a heel, faces go over the Heels cleanly it's been a story told for ages. And even then it didn't always work to get the face over, as I've pointed out.

When I saw Ric Flair doing one of his "cartoonish" spots when up against an opponent like Hogan or Sting I would think "I hope they beat the Hell out of him" because that's how he put over his opponents. He was current for his time and it doesn't surprise me that a pathetic shit stain like you doesn't respect him. Flair didn't perform the way he did because he was so desperate to look silly to a fucking idiot like you, he did so to make his opponents look good and his opponents looked damn good after working with him.

Agreed but Flair made his opponents look good in the same ways people accuse Cena of looking like superman. Cena sells and makes a come back it's like "OMG he could never come back!" Sting did the same thing, Luger did the same thing, Steamboat did the same thing. It's a style, and Cena sells better than alot of the guys who have had that style.

Flair was NWA champion because the fans mandated as much and because other top names respected him. When the fans mandated that he drop the belt to Dusty, he was happy to oblige.

But you said Cena didn't put over Punk because Punk was already over. Dusty was over LONG before Flair was near the belt. So which is it?

No shit, NWA champions at the time had to move a lot. He didn't go to different regions to keep his act fresh, he went to different regions to put over the talent of those regions.

Somewhat, the truth behind the regional thing was this. Sometimes wrestlers would wrestle the same talent a thousand times, and that would get boring in one area. Flair once said that he wrestled steamboat something like 10,000 times. They moved so people wouldn't get bored with the matches as much as anything else. They also went to these other regions to scout talent to bring them to the NWA. So while you're right to some extent, you didn't tell the whole story.

Flair's appeal was in that he was an excellent entertainer. Flair was loved by his fans because his promos were catchy and because his matches were epic. He used that appeal to make other performers look good based on their own abilities, in the end they would look even better after the fact because Flair proved to the crowd that they were legit.

Again I agree with you, but those guys normally didn't get more fame. They were already huge in their region, but hardly ever ended up making the leap.

Ric Flair was the champion and he dropped the belt to Bret Hart clean, Bret Hart was the WWF Champion thanks to Ric's willingness to be a professional. No, it wasn't on tv. Does that diminish the contribution to Bret Hart's record? To a stupid piece of shit like you, sure. To fans like me who want to see the most over performer get his due, it was an awesome contribution that speaks damn well of Flair as a performer.

Yes I agree Flair putting over Bret cleanly was a bigger deal off camera than on.

The only truth you've expressed is that, as I've said before, anybody over the age of 12 that marks for Cena is a fucking moron.

Well I'm not 12 and I'd like to think I'm not a moron. I'm a Cena fan moreso in ring than on the mic anymore. He's an amazing talent imo, but insulting Flair and trying to put over Cena is like insulting Kareem to put over Dwight Howard.

 

[L@RISANO]

Scared probably isn't the right word, but let's look at it.

The Wyatt's are this creepy, backwoods cult, and a guy like Cena can go a long way towards putting that aspect of their gimmick over by acting a little more unnerved by them.

It adds a unique layer to the matchup that you don't typically see in a Cena match. You can see Cena a little creeped out. A little hesitant, and yes a little scared. No one makes John Cena feel like that, so if the Wyatt family can... well holy shit those guys really must have something going for them if they can unnerve a guy like John Cena.

Cena's character rises above against the odds, and what better way to emphasize that then by having to rise above doubts and fears about a faction the likes of which he's never experienced before?

That's the route I'd like to see him go. Not the same type of guy that breaks the illusion of the super wealthy aristocrat Alberto Del Rio by saying that he rents his expensive cars (they had to eventually drop that part of his gimmick after that), or the guy that cuts off the Rock at the knees by pointing out that he has crib notes on his arm. In both of those cases, he did nothing to further the storylines, and probably hurt both. That's the guy that sucks, and that's the guy that I personally hope doesn't keep showing up in this feud. He's better than that.

I do get your point. However, in this age, the lines have been blurred between kayfabe and reality, that is something we have to accept as fans,lMO...even though I am not too big of a fan of it, the CM Punk pipebomb(He called the Rock by his name, and got cheered, but when Cena goes into reality then look at the difference in reactions on the internet especially) was what really started it and it has continued since then...

I was too young at the time, and whilst I saw the match itself, I didn't see the build-up, but when Taker in his first/second year challenged Hogan to the title, how did Hogan treat the Undertaker character?Did he act scared to a being more supernatural and intimidating than Bray Wyatt is?

Cena is basically portrayed as Superman, as was Hogan, thus, being that this feud is still new in terms of both parties going after each other physically or otherwise(remember it was the Wyatts who screwed Cena a couple of times before he decided to go after them). I have already stated that I hope this feud lasts beyond Mania30 and is finished, if possible around SummerSlam(even if more Superstars are added into it)...only then do I think the Wyatts would be able to go the distance with Cena and vice versa.

 

[Mitch Henessey]

I have a feeling this thread wouldn't exist, if CM Punk or Daniel Bryan made fun of Bray, his clothes, his look, or his "Cracker Barrel" rocking chair. But I guess it's okay or reasonable for Bray to tear into Cena for being a fraud and a phony.

They're feuding. What do you expect? Cena shouldn't cross any lines with Bray? You want Cena to be all courteous and respectful with Bray? Why? That's boring. They're supposed to trade testy shots with each other, make things uncomfortable, and cross lines. That's what happens in feuds.

 

[Dudeluv]

I have a feeling this thread wouldn't exist, if CM Punk or Daniel Bryan made fun of Bray, his clothes, his look, or his "Cracker Barrel" rocking chair. But I guess it's okay or reasonable for Bray to tear into Cena for being a fraud and a phony.

They're feuding. What do you expect? Cena shouldn't cross any lines with Bray? You want Cena to be all courteous and respectful with Bray? Why? That's boring. They're supposed to trade testy shots with each other, make things uncomfortable, and cross lines. That's what happens in feuds.

On the contrary my friend I'm sure it would pop up either way, it's all about preference you know that. There's people that dislike punk and Bryan aswell.

Buuuuuuttt IMO I think if anyone else took a jab at brea it would have at least been funny....
Can't blame mr cena for trying though

 

[enviousdominous]

So was Hogan but everyone in the world says that Andre put over Hogan. And someone winning a later match after Cena was NEVER able to beat Punk for like two years doesn't diminish the fact the Cena lost to Punk.

Cena diminished the fact that he lost to Punk by never doing so without there being a fluke involved. Cena NEVER defeated Punk two years after their program because they didn't fight again until 2013, when Punk put Cena way the Hell over prior to Cena's eventual win against The Rock by losing clean.

Everyone in the world might not say that Andre put over Hogan, but I sure as Hell think he did. You'd have a really difficult time finding a match before the main event of Wrestlemania 3 where Andre laid down for anybody, getting pinned wasn't Andre's thing. In Punk's case he shocked the world by ripping on the WWE with (what is believed to be) an impromptu shoot and would have been over against anybody, in Hogan's case he was allowed to pin a guy who was legendary for never being pinned in matches with nearly every legendary performer you can name from that era. Punk wasn't more over for beating John Cena, he was right where he belonged after beating John Cena.

Edge wasn't supposed to look overly strong. Edge was billed as the ultimate opportunist. Edge was supposed to be smarter than everyone else and he was. He got the best of Cena alot because he was smarter which he proved time and time again and got over quite well as a HEEL. Heels use dirty tactics to win. Edge beat Cena ALOT, and not a lot of people looked at Edge as a WWE champion before his matches with Cena. Now if you want to disagree with that, it's fine but Cena got Edge over to a new level no matter what.

Edge did not beat Cena A LOT. Cena fucking no-sold the spear, the spear was a move that kept everyone down except John Cena. That doesn't put Edge over as a viable champion, that puts Cena over. John no-sold the spear after retaining the championship in the Elimination Chamber, an accomplishment that also put Cena over. Every encounter Edge ever had with Cena was an effort to make Cena look good, not to make Edge look like a credible champion. Edge put John Cena over, not the other way around.

Except for the fact Sheamus was literally a nobody before this match. Him beating Cena was a shock. Him beating Cena clean without anyone else's help was a big deal for Sheamus. And apparently you've never watched a strong Face booked, because they hardly ever lose clean. That said yes that match made Sheamus a name, a WWE champion, and a new star.

Sheamus was indeed a nobody, and by virtue of his backstage connections he was granted an abrupt reign as the WWE Champion. Beating Cena was a shock, but only because someone other than Cena would be carrying the belt. I agree that over faces rarely lose clean by virtue of their place on the card, John Cena proved this in that he didn't lose clean. Sheamus didn't hoist John up and force him through a table to win the match, John fell backwards into the table. This made Sheamus' title win look like a fucking accident.

Bad booking isn't on Cena,

We're on the subject of people who Cena helped. Slyfox brought up Wade Barret as though doing so was axiomatic and didn't warrant an explanation. He brought up his name, and now you and he are hiding behind the excuse of "Well, that was just bad booking". No shit, it was booking that involved putting Cena over and not Wade Barrett. Bad booking indeed.

I'd like to say none of it's his fault, Ryback is just awful, anyone that blames Cena for Ryback's lack of success needs to take a long hard look at Ryback.

Right right right, bad booking is getting to be a redundant excuse so let's just declare someone as being so universally awful that not even John Cena can make them look good. We're on the subject of people who John Cena helped with his ability to get people over, you're admitting that he failed with Ryback and you're excusing the occurrence as being all Ryback's fault. That's all fucking dandy but I'm going to need a better explanation than "That's just how it happened". My argument is that Ryback is only relevant if the program recognizes that he's a monster, that's how he's been built. He's very agile for a guy as stout as he is and he doesn't run out of gas in ten minutes like most big men, he has what it takes to be a big shot on the card. Everything stopped when Cena steam rolled over him, another example of John Cena NOT helping someone else get over.

Again Miz was never made to look strong. His gimmick wasn't about being strong, it was about being crafty and finding a way to win big matches, which he did. Cena only did what he was supposed to which was put over the heel. He did that, Miz lost the belt to CM Punk and couldn't gain traction again.

Oh good grief. Did Miz look crafty when he and John were both counted out at the main event of fucking Wrestlemania? John never put Miz over as looking crafty or as having the ability to pull off a win during big matches. The Miz didn't use some clever trick to beat John, The Rock interfered and Miz wasn't in any way a significant part of the PPV. John didn't fail by not making Miz look strong, he failed by not making Miz look like he deserved to be at Wrestlemania.

So Cena's supposed to demand that he loses to Umaga? You're missing the basic point of booking. Most of the time the Heel which Umaga was, needs a reason to be threatening to the strong face. Of course Umaga laid out HHH and HBK. It made it look like he had a great chance to beat Cena. They had a HELL of a match. Really good match, Cena didn't bury him, it seemed like after the Cena match they didn't have a lot for Umaga (in terms of the writing). But Cena shouldn't be demanding to put over Umaga who honestly could've had a better run but was never WWE champion material.

Good fucking grief, I'm not missing the "basic point" of booking. We are on the fucking subject of people who John helped put over and your little toadie Slyfox decided to bring up Umaga's name before coyly shitting "You're welcome" onto the fucking screen. I never said that John defeating Umaga was a bad call by the bookers, I was pointing out that for all of Umaga's build it would have been better for his career if Cena had worked an extended program with him. Umaga put Cena over, not the other way around. Cena did sell to Umaga, which made the eventual win that much more impressive for Cena. After the match, Umaga was no longer unbeatable and that was the end of his push. Try to stay on track.

They also could've been doing their jobs? Plus the fact that none of those guys did anything worth jack for the most part. So John Cena the 14 time world champion should be treated the same way as bull buchanan and Rodney Mack? It's not even close, Cena was built up to be the next big superstar.

John Cena WAS treated the same way as Bull Buchanan and Rodney Mack, they were all climbing the ladder at the same time. John had his fucking stupid rapper gimmick, Bull was used to supplement the gimmick when he could have been used for something less demeaning. Rodney Mack was used to supplement the gimmick when he could have been used for something less demeaning, also because he was black. I agree that none of those guys did jack for the most part, because they sacrificed their careers by putting over John Cena.

By that definition everyone on WWE tv is famous, so is everyone over? Either way the fact is this. Cena made Sheamus' first run, he helped make Edge's first run, Punks run, yeah there are levels of over.

Oh for fucks sake. Read very carefully you mother fucking moron, your little buddy Slyfox said "Putting someone over doesn't mean making them famous" in an effort to suggest that I don't know what it means to put someone over.

I'll answer your balls out fucking stupid question. I never said that everyone on tv is famous, I was pointing out how when one puts someone else over it can involve making them famous. By that definition, to put someone over is a vague term that can mean many things. Only a fucking idiot would interpret that I had said that everyone who's ever been on WWE tv is more famous for it.

Cena made Edge look weak, made Sheamus look like a joke and was coincidentally holding onto a belt that was destined for Punk.

Wade isn't on the level of Cena or Orton. Never was, not saying Wade is bad, but let's face facts he's not on that level and never was. He was a rookie(in the storyline) who got his spot to shine, some guys succeed some guys fail. Vince or someone in the back clearly saw something about Wade that wasn't right. Something they didn't like, a reason they didn't put him over. It's not on Cena.

What-the-fuck-ever kid. AGAIN, we're on the subject of people who Cena put over. I'm not blaming Cena for not being able to get Wade over, I'm acknowledging that using Wade as an example was pretty fucking stupid even for a sentient afterbirth like Slyfox. He brought up Wade Barrett, not me.

Again Sheamus who was looked at like he had no chance to beat Cena did just that, and was a strong world champion after that. He looked better after the fact. Edge, wasn't on the ME level before he beat Cena and Edge was in the ME consistently for the rest of his career. Not only that but he might have been Cena's greatest rival. Edge was able to beat everyone based on his knowledge and intelligence, he showed that chiefly against Cena. It built his gimmick and helped establish him. If you can't see that, you're just trying to preserve your argument

Sheamus was NOT a strong world champion. He retained against Randy Orton by DQ and he was squashed by HHH in the Elimination Chamber. I realize that heels usually get the short end of the stick when it comes to earning a decisive match, but he was the fucking champion and had NOTHING to show for it.

Edge didn't look like a main event mainstay on John's behalf. John looked like a more powerful champion on Edge's behalf. To defeat John, Edge had to give him two spears after John had endured an elimination chamber, Edge had to squirrel away to win by count out and Edge had to have The Big Show of all people interfere and throw John through a spot light. None of that makes Edge look more intelligent, it makes him look like a guy who could never hang with the likes of John Cena. Del Rio, Dolph and Batista made Edge look like he was intelligent and crafty. John only made himself look better.

You're damn right I'm trying to preserve my argument, that argument being that John hasn't put more people over than, as a shithead named Slyfox put it, "Just about anyone in history". You and he want to distract from that point as much as possible.

Agreed for the most part.

Oh no shit? For the most part indeed. You agree, but I'm still not on your level so you're not going to just grant me the honor of being on par with your penetrating insight into the matter.

If you only agree "for the most part", explain why. I don't give a shit if I've impressed you "for the most part", explain what the Hell you mean or shut the fuck up.

I agree as well and I think I've shown where that's happened. With a couple of examples. That said, Punk was known for that promo, that's the promo that got him over big time. But Cena did put him over in Chicago, after Punk took three AA's (making him look stronger than he had in his whole career) and it was relatively clean. Cena took his eye off the ball because he didn't want to win the wrong way. Punk took advantage.

Relatively clean?! Oh good fucking grief, earlier you accused me of being so fucking desperate to preserve my argument. Hey kid, it may have been clean relative to you but to the rest of us John only laid down because he was distracted by what appeared to be an attempt by John Laurinaitis to screw Punk, he was only trying to do the noble thing and Punk swept in and caught him off guard. Yeah, Punk kicked out of the AA, he was a more over face at the time than Cena. Cena kicked out of the GTS as well, that was just because he's John fucking Cena and he has free reign to do that.

No I'm sorry but you're wrong. Hogan was against TONS of bigs guys and they all drew the same for the most part. He wasn't the cause of them making more money. Andre drew better with Hogan, Savage did the same, so did Warrior but Tenta was just another big guy that wasn't close to the people who actually helped get them bigger paychecks.

You are really starting to make Slyfox look intelligent by comparison. Breaking down why your ability to interpret plain English isn't worth shit is getting old.

I didn't say that John Tenta was the only guy who ever drew in a program with Hogan, and I didn't say that John Tenta was the only relevant big man in pro-wrestling history.

John Tenta was the guy who made Hogan look good at Summerslam and at The Royal Rumble. He was part of a long list of performers who put Hogan over and helped Hogan maintain his reputation as the best, thus the huge fanbase that followed Hogan was validated and everyone got bigger paychecks. I wasn't wrong and at this point you're beyond forgiveness.

Well people are talking about it as MOTY which would give Cesaro new fame, a bigger fame than he's ever had before. By your definition of putting someone over (that isn't mine btw) wouldn't that apply. And just by it being mentioned as a MOTY doesn't it give him a new level of fame?

Right right right. So you bring up your example as a means of validating Cena as a guy who puts people over, and then contradict that effort by suggesting that it applies to an interpretation of putting someone over that doesn't concur with yours.

I'll admit that the match was good, Cesaro proved that he can carry just about anybody. I'm not seeing where anyone except for you is calling it MOTY, and I personally don't think that it was better than Cesaro's matches with Randy Orton or Daniel Bryan. If you can dig up a credible source, I'll recognize that for John's participation Cesaro was slightly more over for being recognized as part of a potential MOTY.

Cena and flair are very good at putting their spots into the context of every match. Cena's got alot better at it, Flair was always great at it. If you look now, Cena waits till later in the match to do the 5 knuckle shuffle, meaning he waits until it makes sense for the guy to be worn down. Cena gets more offense at the beginning of the match now to make his comeback look more realistic. Cena's improved alot lately.

Oh good god, someone is defending the five knuckle shuffle. Imagine for a second that you hit me so fucking hard that I laid prone, completely unresponsive to outside stimuli, for eight to ten seconds. The point of the contest is to pin my shoulders to the mat for three seconds, and you pissed away more than twice that amount of time pretending to be a black person on ecstasy. I'm not taking kayfabe too seriously here, I'm taking it seriously enough to recognize that believing that the five knuckle shuffle is a plausible maneuver in a contest of athletic skill is fucking stupid.

Waiting until later in the match doesn't make the five knuckle shuffle look more realistic, it looks fucking stupid at any point in the match.

Flair's over the top antics were a part of how he made his opponents look stronger. He never expected his opponents to sell like death for a fucking stupid looking move, he would make his opponents look like they absolutely demolished him with their abilities.

Well Flair was a Heel and putting people over cleanly was his job but that said. Where did Ron Garvin go after beating Flair, no where. He jobbed the belt right back. Dusty Rhodes was already over. Harley Race was already over. Kerry Von Erich never reached his potential because Flair won the belt back in less than a month from him. It didn't make Kerry look strong, it made Flair look great though as he won the belt right back.

FOR FUCKS SAKE! Arguing that Flair didn't help Ron Garvin get over doesn't promote Cena's ability to get other performers over. If you really want to make this an argument solely about Flair's contributions, start another fucking thread.

Ron Garvin, to my knowledge, gave the belt back to Flair because Dusty wanted his own title win to mean more. Dusty, someone who I didn't mention as someone who put over more people than Cena, was the one who decided that Ron didn't have what it would take to make his title win more marketable. Flair was the guy who said that Ron Garvin was a man with "hands of stone" and that became part of Ron's gimmick for a time, Flair helped Ron get over with the fans.

Flair's loss to Kerry put Kerry way the hell over. You obviously weren't around at the time, Kerry was never more famous than after he became the NWA champion. Kerry was on the main card anywhere he went after that, and he was allowed to defeat Curt Hennig for the IC title within a year of joining the WWF. Kerry became a big shot because Flair made him one.

Sting and Steamboat I agree, he put over. But for the most part Flair didn't make other guys stars. This was not his fault. I think had Magnum TA beaten flair as was supposed to happen, he would've been one of the biggest stars ever.

You're suggesting that Flair didn't make Sting or Steamboat into stars, that's a different argument. I won't humor your fucking stupid bullshit.

But against Flair was a heel, faces go over the Heels cleanly it's been a story told for ages. And even then it didn't always work to get the face over, as I've pointed out.

You're interviewing yourself, shut the fuck up.

Agreed but Flair made his opponents look good in the same ways people accuse Cena of looking like superman. Cena sells and makes a come back it's like "OMG he could never come back!" Sting did the same thing, Luger did the same thing, Steamboat did the same thing. It's a style, and Cena sells better than alot of the guys who have had that style.

Now Cena is better than Sting, Luger and Steamboat because he does the same things they did but sells better? I think I've finally lost the last ounce of faith I had in this website.

We're not debating the traditions of a heel vs face program, we're debating whether or not Flair was better at putting people over than Cena. Please don't drag every performer you can think of into a section of bullshit known as "Not as good as Cena".

Sting laid down for Flair, Steamboat laid down for Flair and Luger laid down for Flair. Ric Flair made his opponents look strong, but he never made them look like John Cena.

But you said Cena didn't put over Punk because Punk was already over. Dusty was over LONG before Flair was near the belt. So which is it?

Please, just make the hurting stoooooop.

I NEVER said that Flair put over Dusty you stupid mother fucker. I was answering an argument that suggested that Flair only moved from territory to territory because he was selfish and wanted to look fresh in as many places as possible.

You're fucking stupid, that's what it is.

Somewhat, the truth behind the regional thing was this. Sometimes wrestlers would wrestle the same talent a thousand times, and that would get boring in one area. Flair once said that he wrestled steamboat something like 10,000 times. They moved so people wouldn't get bored with the matches as much as anything else. They also went to these other regions to scout talent to bring them to the NWA. So while you're right to some extent, you didn't tell the whole story.

Dipshit, don't fucking lecture me on the logistics of keeping someone current when the NWA was at its height. You're damn fucking right I didn't tell the whole story, I'm not here to impress anyone with my understanding of pro-wrestling history you stupid motherfucker. We're arguing whether or not John Cena put over more workers than Flair. If you want to make this an argument over who understands NWA booking logisitics better, start a fucking thread.

Again I agree with you, but those guys normally didn't get more fame. They were already huge in their region, but hardly ever ended up making the leap.

Hardly ever ended up making the leap? For fucks sake. I'm going to throw out some names here because you're too fucking lazy to do the same. Roddy Piper, Kerry Von Erich, Greg Valentine. You don't agree with me because in your backward perception of reality you think that Flair's ability to put on a great match was in no way a contributing factor in making anyone else more famous. The crux of my statement wasn't that Flair was great in the ring, it was that Flair made other people look better.

Yes I agree Flair putting over Bret cleanly was a bigger deal off camera than on.

Oh god, I'm going to fucking break something today.

I never fucking said that Flair's loss to Bret wouldn't have looked better on tv. I was recognizing that Flair lost to Bret, and pro-wrestling history recognizes it as well. Flair put Bret over, period. It was Bret's first world title reign, and he earned it by decisively defeating Ric Flair.

You don't agree with me, you agree with yet another fucking stupid straw man argument.

Well I'm not 12 and I'd like to think I'm not a moron. I'm a Cena fan moreso in ring than on the mic anymore. He's an amazing talent imo, but insulting Flair and trying to put over Cena is like insulting Kareem to put over Dwight Howard.

Oh, how fucking adorable. I've got a some better analogies for you, comparing John Cena to Ric Flair in terms of ability to perform as a pro-wrestler is like comparing Colin Delaney to Bob Backlund. If we're using basketball players, it would be like comparing Justin Beiber to Michael Jordan. If we're using stand-up comedians it would be like comparing Carrot Top to George Carlin. If we're using American presidents it would be like comparing George W Bush to Abraham Lincoln. If we're using physicists it would be like comparing Igor Bogdanov to Neil DeGrasse Tyson. If we're using boxers it would be like comparing Dustin Diamond to Joe Louis.

Ric Flair is infinitely better than John Cena.

 

[enviousdominous]

I was too young at the time, and whilst I saw the match itself, I didn't see the build-up, but when Taker in his first/second year challenged Hogan to the title, how did Hogan treat the Undertaker character?Did he act scared to a being more supernatural and intimidating than Bray Wyatt is?

I was old enough at the time, and Hogan did act scared of The Undertaker. Hogan always took his opponents seriously if my memory serves me well. How did Hogan conquer his fear? He appealed to the Hulkamaniacs to give him the courage to defeat a terrifying foe.

Hogan laid down for Undertaker, after no selling the tombstone and Ric Flair interfering mind you, but he looked bereft after they brought him back to life.

My problem with the promo wasn't that John Cena made Bray look foolish, my problem with the promo was that the promo itself was asinine. One second John is pumped about possibly winning the prestigious Andre the Giant memorial trophy, the next second he's demanding a match with Bray for the sake of proving that hope isn't dead and for the sake of proving to Bray Wyatt that his choice of apparel is silly.

Bray: I have always been fascinated with pride. It is my favorite sin. It has the power to blind even the strongest men. Even those who claim to be immortal. Hey kids, take your vitamins and say your prayers. All praise be to the virtues of hustle, loyalty and respect. As if they, they can do you any good. You are both liars. And your foolish pride allows you to prey upon the weak and fill them up with all this hope. But hope is dead, as will be your legacy John. I can see it in your eyes, you you you don't get it. How could you possibly get something that you cannot comprehend? But I'll lay it out for you John right here, right now. If you look at up at me, you will see a friend. If you look down at me, you will see an enemy. If you look at me square in the eye, you will see a God.

John: Do you listen to all that weird crap you say? You, you just said "Pride was the fall of man" and then you follow it by saying that when I look at you I should see a God. I look at you, I don't see a God. I see a homeless dude that spent too many years wasting away again in Margaritaville. Looking for his lost shaker of salt. Oh, no no no no no no no no no. You didn't find your salt, you found two goons a tiki torch(?) and a rocking chair from Cracker Barrel. And now you're thinking you can waltz out here in a Hawaiian shirt and a fedora and be somebody? Well I say, prove it. Excuse me Mr. Hulkster, I may not be able to make that battle royal. Because right now I'm making an open challenge and you say "hope is dead", I hope hope is not dead, I hope you accept this challenge. Because I want you at Wrestlemania XXX and I hope to Hell you say "yes", because you goin' get the ass whippin' of a lifetime.

Bray: Just as I thought John. A little bit more empty promises, a little bit more hope. Well I say, it's always fun and games with you John. Until it's you caught in the spider's web.

And *scene*

So basically Bray said "hope is dead" and John wasn't about to let that slide. Honoring an all time great by participating in a battle royal in his memory is pretty good, but it's nothing compared to teaching someone who says a bunch of "weird crap" that hope isn't dead and that questionable fashion sense doesn't give you the right to call yourself "somebody".

I honestly don't take issue with how John mocked Bray Wyatt, I take issue with the fact that this was supposed to be passable as a promo for a match at Wrestlemania.

I fucking hate John, but I'll admit that this was just piss poor writing and isn't necessarily indicative of why I hate John. Honestly, why didn't John bring up how Bray cost him the title at The Royal Rumble and use THAT as his motivation to give Bray the ass whippin of a lifetime? Don't say "hope is dead" around John Cena or he'll have a spaz attack, also John finds Hawaiian shirts and fedoras to be a very tacky look when out in public.

 

[Slyfox696]

CM Punk was already over on his own accord, his two wins against John Cena were indecisive in that one was due to an outside distraction and one was due to referee error. CM Punk gave John a clean win after the fact.

CM Punk was not already over. Punk had had a couple terrible runs as champion. And CM Punk's win at MITB was clean. Only biased people think otherwise.

John Cena kicked out of Edge's spear, AFTER he had already won an Elimination Chamber. Kicking out of someone's finisher is a huge taboo, and doing that to Edge didn't help Edge look stronger as a champion. Edge was already over before any of this.

No, he wasn't. Look, if you're just going to revise history because you hate the fact I'm right, there's really no point in continuing this.

John Cena made Edge a main-eventer.

Sheamus defeated John Cena for the WWE title because John carelessly fell into a table. John never went out of his way to make Sheamus look good by comparison, their encounters always ended indecisively unless John was beating Sheamus.

I see, so you ARE going to ignore facts. Why are people so insistent to say things to defend a position which make no sense?

The only person who benefited from John Cena's involvement with Nexus was John Cena. Wade Barret played his role to a T, and was rewarded by playing a part in the Miz winning the WWE championship. Wade Barrett isn't any more popular for having been involved in an angle with John Cena.

It's like you didn't even read my posts...

So, I'm pretty much done with you. You're making up stuff, revising history and not reading my posts. I have far more important things to do than respond to someone like that.

Oh, except for this:

Stating your opinion that John Cena *ugh* "has put over more workers than just about anyone else in wrestling history" is telling the truth, and as you made that statement it therefore makes it a self-evident argument?

The fact it's true is what makes it true. And, despite your revisionist history, it is true.

I apologize for ever having faith in your ability to make an intelligent argument, you're obviously too fucking stupid to conclude your own thoughts with a valid example

Amusing, considering you literally just made up stuff which was not true.

and too arrogant to admit to yourself that you somehow managed to lower the bar of intellect on this forum.

You're the person defending a ridiculous position with revisionist history and lies. Before you go around calling people arrogant, perhaps you ought to look in the mirror first.

The only truth you've expressed is that, as I've said before, anybody over the age of 12 that marks for Cena is a fucking moron.

Says the person who cares so much about their indefensible position they lie or, at the very least, unconsciously distort the truth.

He peaked during his feud with Cena.

...exactly. Cena made him look more credible than anyone before.

Miz also wasn't good enough to be in the spot he was. For Cena to be putting him over, he should have left that program strong... which he didn't. He left it being fully exposed as a guy that simply never was main event material.

Like I said, Miz came into that feud working the undercard with a 60 year old color commentator. Cena made Miz look much better, even as everyone knew the real build was Cena and Rock.

Cena was Edge's first real taste of the main event scene, but he'd been built up for it for years. Punk broke through with the pipe bomb, which wasn't really about Cena putting him over. Cena just happened to be the champ at the time.

The WWE had worked for years to make Edge seem believable. It was Cena who did it. And that's the point of putting someone over, is it not?

Punk was hot because of the pipe bomb. He was made legitimate by John Cena. Being hot and being over are not the same thing.

Yeah Hogan could have said no to working with Zeus... just like he did for others (like Bret Hart). But you're leaving out the entire reason for Zeus. He was there to promote the movie he starred in with Hogan. Why would Hogan refuse to work with a guy who's job was to promote the movie Hogan was the star of, and who wasn't going to work in wrestling after the promotion was done? That feud had zero to do with putting over Zeus, and everything to do with selling tickets for a movie Hogan starred in.

We're not talking about motivations, we're talking about putting over. Hogan made Zeus look incredible.

So... so wrong.

No, no it's not. There's a reason he did nothing of any real note aside from his feud with Hogan.

Both Hogan and Quake benefited from working together. Hogan looked strong by working with a credible monster heel... and Quake worked the biggest program of his career. You've got it a little backwards. The monsters like Quake who worked with Hogan were the guys that helped keep Hogan strong and credible.

Without intending offense, that's just not true.

Hulk Hogan is the greatest professional wrestler in history. He built the WWE into a national promotion and did it by working with all sorts of different wrestlers, whether it was a Piper or an Andre or a Savage or Warrior, etc. Hulk Hogan was strong because Hulk Hogan was a phenomenal worker.

It absolutely matters if someone is solid in the ring.

Not in a discussion about whether someone is being put over.

Believe me, I think I've seen a few more Flair matches than you have judging on your opinion of him.

I have no idea how many Flair matches you've seen, but I've seen more than enough to properly judge Flair as a worker.

I find it ironic though, that you're putting down Flair for working the same match over and over... but you're one of the biggest Hogan apologists around. THERE's a guy who always worked the same match. You basically had to watch him in Japan to ever see him deviate from his normal routine.

Are you telling me his match with Andre was like his match with Warrior? Was his match against Slaughter like his match against Sting?

No, Hogan didn't work the same match. Don't be blinded by the "Hulk Up" routine and think that means he worked the same match. Hogan worked a variety of matches with differing stories.

He wasn't. Not by a mile.

Yes, yes he was.

Now, don't get me wrong. Flair was obviously a great professional wrestler. He knew how to market himself very well, he was quite solid on the stick and he definitely had a successful run during the time period in which he worked.

But between the ropes, he was not anything special. He wasn't a bad worker, he just wasn't a great worker. He worked repetitive matches, using the same silly nonsensical spots and would often leave a person wondering "why?".

Haha.

Which one makes sense in the 'reality' of a match? The guy getting thrown so hard into the corner that he flips over backwards upon impact?

No, that makes absolutely no sense. No one in history has ever been thrown so hard they run 10-15 feet before doing a complete flip. Ever.

Or the guy who's opponent lies prone for what seems like forever, while the other guy bounces off the ropes, does a little two step, stops still over top of him, brushes off his knuckles before dropping a fist on the still prone guy?

Yes, this definitely is much more realistic.

Both are ridiculous spots (like the Flair face spot). Flair's at least had a sense of psychology to them (both cases the psychology being that his opponent hammered him that bad).

...I'm not sure you understand the term psychology, if you think flipping upside down in corner is psychology. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I appreciate the fact we've had a quality discussion, but Flair's silly spots had no psychology behind them. That's why they are silly.

No it does... because Flair gained his reputation because of his work.

Flair gained his reputation because he was a great salesman. And that's not intended as an insult, it's just a truth. And in pro wrestling, knowing how to be a great salesman is incredibly important. But it doesn't change the fact the caliber of his work in the ring doesn't come close to matching the hype.

The guy is generally regarded, by his peers of the time, by the media of the time, by fans of the time... by virtually everyone, as one of the best period from that time. That includes his ring work.

Well, of course they did, he was the NWA champion at a time when it was still relevant but not a national product.

I think there are so many times people don't realize how much they've been worked by the business. My favorite example is when someone says a certain guy, let's say Cena, isn't a WRESTLER. If he's not a wrestler, what is he? Obviously he's a wrestler, but people have been worked for years into thinking there's a difference between someone who works a more brawling style of wrestling than a more technical style of wrestling.

I think that's what happens with Ric Flair. People believe he was great between the ropes, because at that time (and it still hasn't changed much), people didn't understand what it means to be a great worker. Obviously you had your fans who thought the fact he was champion meant he was a great worker, but then you had the other type of fan (the IWC predecessor) who thought because he working a particular style and doing certain moves that made him a good wrestler. But none of those have anything to do with being good in the ring.

So the legend perpetuates and eventually grows to become a "truth", even though it never was a truth.

I can't remember the exact deal behind the Flair/Hart match not being televised... I think there was something about the execution of the match that didn't play well. It might have been Flair being a dick about the whole thing too. I wouldn't argue that was a case where Flair put someone over clean (there were issues happening at the time that led to Flair leaving a few months later), but it's not proof that Flair didn't put people over like Cena does.

Supposedly Flair had a busted ear drum due to a match he had with Warrior and it threw off his equilibrium. I know Flair and Hart never really got along, so who knows whether or not it's true, but whether it's true doesn't change the fact one cannot say Flair put Hart over. Even if Flair was Hart's biggest fan and did everything he could to make him look great, if nobody ever sees the match, there's no way to claim Flair put Hart over.

That's all I'm really saying.

You can say that no one in history has made more people look better than Cena has, and I don't disagree that Cena doesn't put a lot of guys over. But that statement just shows how far back your history actually goes... because NO ONE in history can make that claim like Ric Flair can.

Well, while we obviously disagree about Flair's quality, I want you to consider something.

I said "John Cena has put over more wrestlers than just about anyone else in history." and while you weren't the one who initially disagreed, you did take up the argument. But look where you are...you're discussing one wrestler whose prime was thirty years ago. It doesn't matter whether we agree on who put over more workers, the fact you're having to discuss just one wrestler from thirty years ago should be all the proof someone would need about how great Cena is at putting others over (which you aren't disputing, I'm just saying).

I think it says it all.

 

[enviousdominous]

CM Punk was not already over. Punk had had a couple terrible runs as champion. And CM Punk's win at MITB was clean. Only biased people think otherwise.

Only biased people like you stick their fucking heads in the sand and outright deny the obvious if it questions the validity of their favorite performer. CM Punk's win was NOT clean, John was distracted and Punk took advantage.

CM Punk already had a vocal fan-base well before his pipe-bomb and during what you imagine were terrible runs as champion. John Cena matches were already stale, the fans already took CM Punk seriously enough to recognize him as a better performer than John Cena.

No, he wasn't. Look, if you're just going to revise history because you hate the fact I'm right, there's really no point in continuing this.

John Cena made Edge a main-eventer.

You can accuse me of revising history based on my own whims, it'll just look like an evasive argument for lack of any valid point to make if you don't back that accusation up with a relevant comparison.

Taking the belt from John in the manner that Edge took it did NOT make him look like he could beat John in a one on one match. Keep in mind that Edge NEVER defeated John Cena clean in any of their one on one matches unless you want to call a count out a clean victory.

Edge was allowed to be put over as a WHC mainstay because he was Edge and the crowd loved him, not because he worked with John Cena at one point. Edge made Edge a main eventer.

I see, so you ARE going to ignore facts. Why are people so insistent to say things to defend a position which make no sense?

What fact am I ignoring? All you did was present Sheamus as an example of someone who was better off for having worked with Cena. You didn't present an example or attempt to explain yourself, you acted like a smug jack-off and used an emoticon to validate your point.

I'm not looking at the fucking sky and telling you that it's orange here. We're debating the merits of John Cena's ability to get people over and you refuse to explain your fucking point.

It's like you didn't even read my posts...

So, I'm pretty much done with you. You're making up stuff, revising history and not reading my posts. I have far more important things to do than respond to someone like that.

What the fuck did I miss? You threw Wade Barrett's name out there, I explained why he is not an example of someone who was better off for working with John Cena. That's how a fucking debate works.

If you have an issue with what you assume is my lack of an ability to comprehend what you posted, don't be a lazy fuck and explain what exactly you mean by that. If I'm so bent on revising history, explain what the fuck real history is to you. Jesus Christ.

Oh, except for this:

Oh, no shit. You were so fucking busy making million dollar decisions so little people like me could enjoy life in a civilized world, but just couldn't resist handing me a diligently written smackdown of a response to my criticisms. This should be good.

The fact it's true is what makes it true. And, despite your revisionist history, it is true.

Do you realize how fucking tiny your bubble of perspective is you worthless little shit? I don't take you seriously, NOBODY FUCKING TAKES YOU SERIOUSLY!! If it's so fucking evident, take the examples I gave of people who put over more people than John Cena and explain with all the word-power your pathetic head can shart onto the screen exactly why you believe that they don't compare to John Cena.

I'll share some more examples. Jake the Snake put over more people than John Cena. Sergeant Slaughter put over more people than John Cena. Randy Savage put over more people than John Cena. Mike Rotunda put over more people than John Cena. Michael Hayes put over more people than John Cena. William Regal put over more people than John Cena.

Amusing, considering you literally just made up stuff which was not true.

I just made up "stuff" which was not true? I swear to God, you're like a dark omen of the future. I see many shit heads like you all over the web and I thought that maybe, this forum could be an escape. Shitstains, worthless fucking losers who use the internet as a fucking lifestyle and are content to declare their fucking stupid ideas as fact merited only by their reputation among an obscure group of like-minded jackasses.

You are the reason why the internet is becoming a public toilet with stupid shit written on the wall, if there was any justice in this world you would have been a stain on that toilet.

You're the person defending a ridiculous position with revisionist history and lies. Before you go around calling people arrogant, perhaps you ought to look in the mirror first.

The only validation you have for declaring my explanations as revisionist history and lies is that the assumption for as much fell out of your fucking head. Debating you is like trying to teach the alphabet to a brain damaged parrot, your only argument is a fucking generalization that you keep repeating over and over again without an explanation.

YOU ARE ARROGANT! You make a point of appearing arrogant, you want people to recognize you as arrogant, you expect every one of your arguments to be regarded as valid simply because you made them. In the real world, that doesn't fly for those of us with actual responsibilities in life. In ten years, you'll be right here only amounting to what you've contributed to this web site.

Says the person who cares so much about their indefensible position they lie or, at the very least, unconsciously distort the truth.

My position is indefensible? I think I've done a pretty good job of defending my position considering you're reduced to declaring it all lies and revisionist history without explaining exactly how any of that makes for a valid argument.

I care about defending my position until I'm presented with a tangible argument, all you're capable of is using yourself as an example of why everything you say is fact. You're a nobody with a screen name that a few people who frequent this forum might recognize, you're not Stephen Hawking lecturing us on physics or Pope Francis lecturing us on Catholicism. You're Slyfox, a fucking idiot wearing a username as a badge of honor who assumes that his higher understanding in regard to pro-wrestling makes him worthy of talking down to people. Pull your fucking head out of your ass and see the world the way it really is.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

Cena diminished the fact that he lost to Punk by never doing so without there being a fluke involved. Cena NEVER defeated Punk two years after their program because they didn't fight again until 2013, when Punk put Cena way the Hell over prior to Cena's eventual win against The Rock by losing clean.

There was no fluke, Cena couldn't beat punk flat out. For the longest time. Yes, maybe Punk couldn't beat Cena either but Cena couldn't put away Punk for two years. If that's not putting someone over what is? Cena hit him with 3 AA's, and couldn't finish him with the STFU. If Cena had hit Punk with a bus and Punk kicked out would've that put him over? I mean seriously, what did the guy have to do? Cena couldn't beat him, that's being put over in itself, and Punk did beat Cena. But since you don't believe Cena put over punk let's look at MITB.

Cena hits three AA's, it's late in the match. Punk hits GTS, Cena falls out of the ring. Punk has him beat but Cena gets a fluky break as you would call it.It takes Punk a good 45 seconds to get Cena into the ring. At this time Big Johnny and Vince are coming down the aisle.And they distract Punk for another 20 seconds. Cena gets the upper hand for a second with the stfu and vince sends Johnny to ring the bell.

Let's see what story this match tells. Cena hits Punk with EVERYTHING he could. Late in the match Punk hits the GTS and has Cena beat until Vince and co. distract him. Cena gets the upperhand, but is that enough? No. Vince realizes the only way Cena can win that match is if he screws punk. THE ONLY way,

Punk isn't put over by this match? Punk has never looked stronger before or since this match. Three AA's, and everyone knew the ONLY chance Cena has to win was punk being screwed over. That's how strong Punk was that night. The only way Cena (the multi-time world champion) could beat CM Punk was to have him screwed.

Everyone in the world might not say that Andre put over Hogan, but I sure as Hell think he did. You'd have a really difficult time finding a match before the main event of Wrestlemania 3 where Andre laid down for anybody, getting pinned wasn't Andre's thing. In Punk's case he shocked the world by ripping on the WWE with (what is believed to be) an impromptu shoot and would have been over against anybody, in Hogan's case he was allowed to pin a guy who was legendary for never being pinned in matches with nearly every legendary performer you can name from that era. Punk wasn't more over for beating John Cena, he was right where he belonged after beating John Cena.

So Punk never being WWE champion before then, never having that kind of spotlight before Cena doesn't mean anything? Having a match of the year, something which punk hadn't done before and never did again isn't a way of putting him over? Maybe I just disagree with you on what putting over means. Punk was a bigger after beating Cena than before.

Edge did not beat Cena A LOT. Cena fucking no-sold the spear, the spear was a move that kept everyone down except John Cena. That doesn't put Edge over as a viable champion, that puts Cena over. John no-sold the spear after retaining the championship in the Elimination Chamber, an accomplishment that also put Cena over. Every encounter Edge ever had with Cena was an effort to make Cena look good, not to make Edge look like a credible champion. Edge put John Cena over, not the other way around.

The feud in itself helped launch edge into superstardom. It's where the ultimate opportunist gimmick came from. Edge basically had the same matches with Cena that he did with Taker. The thing is that Edge had a way of doing things. Edge cheated hardly ever won clean. It's how he went over but his Feud with Cena was a big deal, and at the very least HELPED put him over.

Sheamus was indeed a nobody, and by virtue of his backstage connections he was granted an abrupt reign as the WWE Champion. Beating Cena was a shock, but only because someone other than Cena would be carrying the belt. I agree that over faces rarely lose clean by virtue of their place on the card, John Cena proved this in that he didn't lose clean. Sheamus didn't hoist John up and force him through a table to win the match, John fell backwards into the table. This made Sheamus' title win look like a fucking accident.

It still put him over because he beat John Cena. Not only that but again let's look at the context of the match. Cena was the long standing champion, and Sheamus was this new up and coming rookie no one thought had a chance in hell. In the match you'd expect that Sheamus would make the rookie mistake. But as the match goes on and Cena gets more desperate to send Sheamus through the table we see that Cena is having problems putting the rookie away. Cena set up the table in multiple ways, Sheamus got ride of it. Then finally after all the Cena makes an error, because he couldn't finish him. Sheamus the guy who you'd expect to be the stupid rookie, doesn't make the mistake it's the veteran and in the big match Sheamus keeps his cool and wins. It may have looked a bit like an accident but it also looked like Sheamus, the Rookie, was beyond his years. You can say it made it look like an accident but the match told a story. A wise rookie (doing multiple things to prove so, Getting out of the way of a leg drop he could hardly see coming that would've sent him through the table, tossing the table out of the ring, and not allowing Cena to hit his big moves around the table) getting the best of a storied veteran who made a rookie mistake, and Sheamus was good enough to make Cena make a rookie mistake.

We're on the subject of people who Cena helped. Slyfox brought up Wade Barret as though doing so was axiomatic and didn't warrant an explanation. He brought up his name, and now you and he are hiding behind the excuse of "Well, that was just bad booking". No shit, it was booking that involved putting Cena over and not Wade Barrett. Bad booking indeed.

Agreed... but I'm really not hiding behind bad booking. It seemed like a storyline intended to keep Cena out of the Main event picture. I don't agree that Barrett should've gone over.

Right right right, bad booking is getting to be a redundant excuse so let's just declare someone as being so universally awful that not even John Cena can make them look good. We're on the subject of people who John Cena helped with his ability to get people over, you're admitting that he failed with Ryback and you're excusing the occurrence as being all Ryback's fault. That's all fucking dandy but I'm going to need a better explanation than "That's just how it happened". My argument is that Ryback is only relevant if the program recognizes that he's a monster, that's how he's been built. He's very agile for a guy as stout as he is and he doesn't run out of gas in ten minutes like most big men, he has what it takes to be a big shot on the card. Everything stopped when Cena steam rolled over him, another example of John Cena NOT helping someone else get over.

Okay well, Extreme Rules Ryback puts Cena through the stage in a last man standing match leaving Cena laying there forever, and Ryback getting up afterwards making it look as if he SHOULD be the champion. Made him look strong as hell. Ryback wasn't going to be WWE champion yet and it's not because of Cena. It's because he clearly wasn't ready If they were going to do that they should've put him over Punk when he was red hot. Cena didn't bury Ryback. He made him look better at Extreme Rules, he made their matches entertaining and Ryback always looked monster like in those matches.

Oh good grief. Did Miz look crafty when he and John were both counted out at the main event of fucking Wrestlemania? John never put Miz over as looking crafty or as having the ability to pull off a win during big matches. The Miz didn't use some clever trick to beat John, The Rock interfered and Miz wasn't in any way a significant part of the PPV. John didn't fail by not making Miz look strong, he failed by not making Miz look like he deserved to be at Wrestlemania.

Miz did kick out of the AA, he did suffer a concussion and he still found a way to win, whether that's because of the Rock or not, he still found a way.

Good fucking grief, I'm not missing the "basic point" of booking. We are on the fucking subject of people who John helped put over and your little toadie Slyfox decided to bring up Umaga's name before coyly shitting "You're welcome" onto the fucking screen. I never said that John defeating Umaga was a bad call by the bookers, I was pointing out that for all of Umaga's build it would have been better for his career if Cena had worked an extended program with him. Umaga put Cena over, not the other way around. Cena did sell to Umaga, which made the eventual win that much more impressive for Cena. After the match, Umaga was no longer unbeatable and that was the end of his push. Try to stay on track.

Umaga still could've been dominate. The match with Cena was a war, it could've put Umaga over more. In fact it should've. Have you ever watched RR 07? First off Umaga looks like a monster as he dominates but not only that but when Cena makes his comeback. He does everything to Umaga. He throws the stairs at him while Umaga's outside. He drives his head into the stairs with a flashback, hits a suplex on them. Crushes his head between the steel post and a camera monitor. And yet Umaga is still going, he goes through the table, still going..... And still looks like he's dominating. It takes Cena choking the life out of him with a ring rope, until he passes out to beat Umaga. Umaga was still an unstoppable monster, and was still booked as such. Umaga still looked pretty unbeatable considering what Cena had to do. This was the moment imo that hurt Umaga in the long run. In the context of that match Cena put over Umaga and made him look like a beast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1a18a5azxc

John Cena WAS treated the same way as Bull Buchanan and Rodney Mack, they were all climbing the ladder at the same time. John had his fucking stupid rapper gimmick, Bull was used to supplement the gimmick when he could have been used for something less demeaning. Rodney Mack was used to supplement the gimmick when he could have been used for something less demeaning, also because he was black. I agree that none of those guys did jack for the most part, because they sacrificed their careers by putting over John Cena.

Here's my point that's there jobs. Comparing Cena to these guys is stupid as fuck. Cena was already in a feud with Angle, Taker, Brock, and those guys were never NEAR where Cena. No one would've ever bought Cena being Bull or Rodney Mack's underling. The fact is that you're trying to say Cena was on the same level as those two and there was NEVER a point in his WWE career where they were on the same level. Cena's first Feud was a program with Kurt Angle, better than anything the other two did in their whole careers. Cena was already being groomed and a bigger deal than both of them. His first feud was bigger than their careers. No Way were they ever close to the same level. You can try to make it look that way but honestly you're calling me a moron while suggesting that there was ever a point where Cena and Bull Buchanan were on the same level. Yeah that's brilliance.

Oh for fucks sake. Read very carefully you mother fucking moron, your little buddy Slyfox said "Putting someone over doesn't mean making them famous" in an effort to suggest that I don't know what it means to put someone over.

I'll answer your balls out fucking stupid question. I never said that everyone on tv is famous, I was pointing out how when one puts someone else over it can involve making them famous. By that definition, to put someone over is a vague term that can mean many things. Only a fucking idiot would interpret that I had said that everyone who's ever been on WWE tv is more famous for it.

Well then Cena put over Sheamus, Punk, Bryan, Umaga, Edge, Cesaro, and many many others.

Cena made Edge look weak, made Sheamus look like a joke and was coincidentally holding onto a belt that was destined for Punk.

Then Everyone that ever faced Edge during that period made Edge look weak. Cena wasn't the first or last person to kick out of the spear. Edge used underhanded tactics all the time to beat Taker, and many others. I already made sense of the Sheamus match, and the Punk match, like I said, what was Cena supposed to do hit him with a bus and have Punk kick out? That's the only thing that seems like it would've made you happy.

Sheamus was NOT a strong world champion. He retained against Randy Orton by DQ and he was squashed by HHH in the Elimination Chamber. I realize that heels usually get the short end of the stick when it comes to earning a decisive match, but he was the fucking champion and had NOTHING to show for it.

Wait, What does what happened after Cena put over Sheamus have to do with Sheamus being put over. Sheamus looked good the night he beat Cena, Cena made the rookie mistake while the Rookie kept his cool in the biggest match of his life. Cena put him over, what happens after that isn't on Cena. (btw I knew you'd bring that up but it goes with the whole point of Cena does put alot of guys over but it doesn't always mean that those people are going to surpass him)

Edge didn't look like a main event mainstay on John's behalf. John looked like a more powerful champion on Edge's behalf. To defeat John, Edge had to give him two spears after John had endured an elimination chamber, Edge had to squirrel away to win by count out and Edge had to have The Big Show of all people interfere and throw John through a spot light. None of that makes Edge look more intelligent, it makes him look like a guy who could never hang with the likes of John Cena. Del Rio, Dolph and Batista made Edge look like he was intelligent and crafty. John only made himself look better.

Umm yeah it kind of does, Edge couldn't hang with Cena, that was the bases of the storyline. But Edge found ways to beat Cena because he was intelligent. Don't believe me? Okay, you forgot a bit of history though. First, Edge beat Cena to win his first WWE title. Which made him look intelligent. Waiting for the best moment to strike is smart. Then he won his second WWE championship by outsmarting Cena once again. By hitting Cena with the belt and pinning RVD in a Triple threat match. Looks pretty f'n intelligent and crafty to me. I guess you have to hate John Cena with all of your heart and soul not to see that.

You're damn right I'm trying to preserve my argument, that argument being that John hasn't put more people over than, as a shithead named Slyfox put it, "Just about anyone in history". You and he want to distract from that point as much as possible.

Cena has put ALOT of people over, and it's all in the definition of put over. Some would say Andre didn't put Hogan over, I believe he did. My main argument is you aren't giving Cena credit for putting anyone over. Such guys like Edge, Punk, and others. You just dismiss, that my problem with your statements, and you're wrong about that.

Oh no shit? For the most part indeed. You agree, but I'm still not on your level so you're not going to just grant me the honor of being on par with your penetrating insight into the matter.

If you only agree "for the most part", explain why. I don't give a shit if I've impressed you "for the most part", explain what the Hell you mean or shut the fuck up.

You're the one cursing like a child and implying that you can't be wrong. But okay let's go. In you Reply you said that the fans would've been happy to see Brock vs anyone. I disagree, I don't think anyone would want to see that. That's where I disagree with you, but I do agree Cena in no way put over broke.

Relatively clean?! Oh good fucking grief, earlier you accused me of being so fucking desperate to preserve my argument. Hey kid, it may have been clean relative to you but to the rest of us John only laid down because he was distracted by what appeared to be an attempt by John Laurinaitis to screw Punk, he was only trying to do the noble thing and Punk swept in and caught him off guard. Yeah, Punk kicked out of the AA, he was a more over face at the time than Cena. Cena kicked out of the GTS as well, that was just because he's John fucking Cena and he has free reign to do that.

I already explained this but let's do this again. Cena hit him with three AA's, and couldn't finish him. Punk already had him beat before Vince and Johnny showed up. And the only way Cena could've beaten Punk was for Punk to be screwed. That's the story that match told. Punk has never looked as good as he did that night, and probably never will again. Get over yourself, and realize that Cena has put some people over. Punk being one of them. To me it seems like the only way you'll give Cena any credit for putting someone over is if Punk came into the ring and slapped Cena and he fell down and acted like he was knocked out and lost in 8 seconds.

I didn't say that John Tenta was the only guy who ever drew in a program with Hogan, and I didn't say that John Tenta was the only relevant big man in pro-wrestling history.

John Tenta was the guy who made Hogan look good at Summerslam and at The Royal Rumble. He was part of a long list of performers who put Hogan over and helped Hogan maintain his reputation as the best, thus the huge fanbase that followed Hogan was validated and everyone got bigger paychecks. I wasn't wrong and at this point you're beyond forgiveness.

Could've been anyone, Hogan was already validated with a 4 years reign as world champion. Beating Andre and all that validated him. Earthquakes existence did little but give Hogan another guy to beat.

Right right right. So you bring up your example as a means of validating Cena as a guy who puts people over, and then contradict that effort by suggesting that it applies to an interpretation of putting someone over that doesn't concur with yours.


I'll admit that the match was good, Cesaro proved that he can carry just about anybody. I'm not seeing where anyone except for you is calling it MOTY, and I personally don't think that it was better than Cesaro's matches with Randy Orton or Daniel Bryan. If you can dig up a credible source, I'll recognize that for John's participation Cesaro was slightly more over for being recognized as part of a potential MOTY.

I'll wait till the end of the year when it's on the list and we'll revisit this. Sound fair.

Oh good god, someone is defending the five knuckle shuffle. Imagine for a second that you hit me so fucking hard that I laid prone, completely unresponsive to outside stimuli, for eight to ten seconds. The point of the contest is to pin my shoulders to the mat for three seconds, and you pissed away more than twice that amount of time pretending to be a black person on ecstasy. I'm not taking kayfabe too seriously here, I'm taking it seriously enough to recognize that believing that the five knuckle shuffle is a plausible maneuver in a contest of athletic skill is fucking stupid.

Then every top rope move should be gone. Savage's top rope elbow when he points to the sky takes far more than 3 second, eight to ten actually. As did punks , as do most top rope finishers.

Flair's over the top antics were a part of how he made his opponents look stronger. He never expected his opponents to sell like death for a fucking stupid looking move, he would make his opponents look like they absolutely demolished him with their abilities.

You mean like Cena did for Umaga when he could barely stand through the second portion of the match or when he couldn't continue when Ryback left him laying out cold at the end of the LMS match.

FOR FUCKS SAKE! Arguing that Flair didn't help Ron Garvin get over doesn't promote Cena's ability to get over. If you really want to make this an argument solely about Flair's contributions, start another fucking thread.

No my point is that just because you put someone over doesn't mean that they get over. Alot of it has to with what happens after that. Cena put over Umaga as a monster, and Ryback.

Again. You're suggesting that Flair didn't make Sting or Steamboat into stars, that's a different argument. I won't humor your fucking stupid bullshit.

No you're putting words into text.Truth is that Flair put over Sting, when sting rolled flair up in a fluky fashion to win the WCW title, you're not denying that Flair put over Sting. Sting was a powerhouse but beat flair with a roll up. Yes flair put over Sting the same way Cena put over Sheamus. Steamboat beat flair for the title with Flairs foot under the rope. Winning clean over flair in an impressive fashion was rare, and Flair was the heel, Cena's face and puts people over in a similar fashion. What's the difference between Punk covering Cena with Cena's foot on the ropes and Flair being pinned with his foot under the ropes? Still puts both over. You are saying that Cena isn't putting people over in the course of the match, my argument is that it's clear he does and you're just bias.

We're not debating the traditions of a heel vs face program, we're debating whether or not Flair was better at putting people over than Cena. Please don't drag every performer you can think of into a section of bullshit known as "Not as good as Cena". You don't think that anybody is better than Cena in any aspect of what you expect of a pro-wrestler, that's fucking obvious and I would never argue that you think that way. Stay on fucking point please.

No I know that people are better than Cena, but then again that doesn't take away from the point that Cena made people look great.

Sting laid down for Flair, Steamboat laid down for Flair and Luger laid down for Flair. Ric Flair made his opponents look strong, but he never made them look like John Cena.

Orton, Triple H, Umaga, Batista and Ryback all laid down for Cena. All looked strong as hell against Cena.

Hardly ever ended up making the leap? For fucks sake. I'm going to throw out some names here because you're too fucking lazy to do the same. Roddy Piper, Kerry Von Erich, Greg Valentine. You don't agree with me because in your backward perception of reality you think that Flair's ability to put on a great match was in no way a contributing factor in making anyone else more famous. The crux of my statement wasn't that Flair was great in the ring, it was that Flair made other people look better.

It was a small percentage. Flair did make people look good but so does Cena.

I never fucking said that Flair's loss to Bret wouldn't have looked better on tv. I was recognizing that Flair lost to Bret, and pro-wrestling history recognizes it as well. Flair put Bret over, period. It was Bret's first world title reign, and he earned it by decisively defeating Ric Flair.

I was agreeing with you, why you had to yell like a moron for me agreeing is beyond me.

Cena made Ryback and Umaga look like monsters, he made Punk look invincible and he made Edge look like the smartest guy in the room. You just don't give him credit for anything. Cena put many many people over. More than most have in their prime. You're argument is that flair put over people with his in ring work. I think Cena put over Cesaro and punk, and bryan win, lose, or draw. He put over many others along the way. Made others look like monster and made alot of people look great in the course of his matches much like flair.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

The Rock and Stone Cold NEVER acted afraid of the Undertaker. I don't know what the big deal is. Oh, right....it's Cena, thus, everything he does you supposedly hate (but just enough to make a thread about it, spend time arguing it, booing him at the arena, and making a sign to say you hate him).

The Cena hate has become a joke. Most people have moved beyond that and realize that Cena works you into booing him just as much as he works others into cheering him. The audience isn't homogeneous. One act can be a heel to some, a face to the other. Not a stupid ass "tweener". Like Superman. Some people love the character, some hate it, it is what it is. Bottom line, you're talking about him more than anyone else.

 

[enviousdominous]

There was no fluke, Cena couldn't beat punk flat out. For the longest time. Yes, maybe Punk couldn't beat Cena either but Cena couldn't put away Punk for two years. If that's not putting someone over what is? Cena hit him with 3 AA's, and couldn't finish him with the STFU. If Cena had hit Punk with a bus and Punk kicked out would've that put him over? I mean seriously, what did the guy have to do? Cena couldn't beat him, that's being put over in itself, and Punk did beat Cena. But since you don't believe Cena put over punk let's look at MITB.

Look at it from both angles. Indeed, John allowed Punk to kick out of three AAs. Ask yourself this: As over as Punk was at the time, would the majority of the WWE fan-base have accepted Punk getting pinned for the first or any subsequent AA? The answer is no, they wouldn't have accepted that as the finish of the match. Punk was already over to the point where kicking out of the AA was no shock to the viewers at home and the fans in attendance.

The fluke was that John Laurinaitis and HHH were about to pull a fast one, and John let his guard down so he could look noble. CM Punk didn't beat John clean, John has never humbled himself to allow a more over performer in CM Punk a clean victory.

Cena hits three AA's, it's late in the match. Punk hits GTS, Cena falls out of the ring. Punk has him beat but Cena gets a fluky break as you would call it.It takes Punk a good 45 seconds to get Cena into the ring. At this time Big Johnny and Vince are coming down the aisle.And they distract Punk for another 20 seconds. Cena gets the upper hand for a second with the stfu and vince sends Johnny to ring the bell.

Right right right. Here's the thing; The fans didn't need all that pizazz to tell this story, and I realize that it's not Cena's fault that so many distractions were invested in the finish. Indeed, they were both distracted by Vince and Johnny Ace. If either one of them won at that point, it would have been a fluke. Either Cena could only win with the aid of outside forces, or Punk could only win due to John Cena's gullibility when it comes to doing the right thing. At that point, nobody was beating anybody clean.

Let's see what story this match tells. Cena hits Punk with EVERYTHING he could. Late in the match Punk hits the GTS and has Cena beat until Vince and co. distract him. Cena gets the upperhand, but is that enough? No. Vince realizes the only way Cena can win that match is if he screws punk. THE ONLY way,

And the only way Punk can win the match is due to John Cena having his noble spidey senses overcome with the reality that Vince is trying to fix the match. Let's see what eventually happened.

Punk isn't put over by this match? Punk has never looked stronger before or since this match. Three AA's, and everyone knew the ONLY chance Cena has to win was punk being screwed over. That's how strong Punk was that night. The only way Cena (the multi-time world champion) could beat CM Punk was to have him screwed.

Punk never looked stronger before that match? I acknowledge that kicking out of someone's finisher is big deal even in the context I'm about to explain. John Cena was not coming out of this match with the belt, it didn't make any sense on paper or in anyone's imagination. At this point in his career he looked more ridiculous than ever and taking a break would help bump up his title count. Punk didn't lay down for any AAs, and Cena only laid down for a GTS that happened because he refused to let Vince fix the match like the benevolent boy scout he is. Punk kicking out of the AA made Punk look just as good as we already knew he was, Punk was leaving that arena with the belt under any circumstances.

God forbid, Cena actually lay down for Punk as the finish of a match where no AA was performed and Punk managed to win by his abilities alone.

So Punk never being WWE champion before then, never having that kind of spotlight before Cena doesn't mean anything? Having a match of the year, something which punk hadn't done before and never did again isn't a way of putting him over? Maybe I just disagree with you on what putting over means. Punk was a bigger after beating Cena than before.

I think the one thing we may be able to agree on is that we both look at CM Punk very differently as a performer.

From my perspective, Punk had put on matches worthy of Match of the Year status well before his feud with Cena. Punk was the reason that his match with Cena was so damn memorable, and Punk would have made it a Match of the Year candidate with or without Cena. The integrity of Punk's win was tainted by outside distractions, only Cena marks regard it as a clean win.

The feud in itself helped launch edge into superstardom. It's where the ultimate opportunist gimmick came from. Edge basically had the same matches with Cena that he did with Taker. The thing is that Edge had a way of doing things. Edge cheated hardly ever won clean. It's how he went over but his Feud with Cena was a big deal, and at the very least HELPED put him over.

Oh, we're using the term "helped" now? I get it, kind of like how cheerleaders get Superbowl rings. For some people the Ultimate Opportunist thing was a cute niche for Edge to have among the various gimmicks around at that time. Edge was a class act, so for him, the deal was that he cheat to win and thus put over his opponents as still looking strong.

The only thing that truly "helped" Edge get over in that it officially made him a serious world title contender was winning the Royal Rumble. When he won the belt in a legit manner at Hell in a Cell, he was then officially a mainstay world champion.

Edge was over enough for the spot well before John Cena even debuted, and he had to pay his dues by putting John Cena over. For paying his dues, he got the spot he deserved, not for any investment on John Cena's part.

It still put him over because he beat John Cena. Not only that but again let's look at the context of the match. Cena was the long standing champion, and Sheamus was this new up and coming rookie no one thought had a chance in hell. In the match you'd expect that Sheamus would make the rookie mistake. But as the match goes on and Cena gets more desperate to send Sheamus through the table we see that Cena is having problems putting the rookie away. Cena set up the table in multiple ways, Sheamus got ride of it. Then finally after all the Cena makes an error, because he couldn't finish him. Sheamus the guy who you'd expect to be the stupid rookie, doesn't make the mistake it's the veteran and in the big match Sheamus keeps his cool and wins. It may have looked a bit like an accident but it also looked like Sheamus, the Rookie, was beyond his years. You can say it made it look like an accident but the match told a story. A wise rookie (doing multiple things to prove so, Getting out of the way of a leg drop he could hardly see coming that would've sent him through the table, tossing the table out of the ring, and not allowing Cena to hit his big moves around the table) getting the best of a storied veteran who made a rookie mistake, and Sheamus was good enough to make Cena make a rookie mistake.

Again, the way you see it and the way I see it are obviously two very different perspectives. Sheamus didn't look like a rookie beyond his years because John Cena fell backwards through a table. Nothing that happened in that match, or during Sheamus' lackluster title run suggested that Sheamus was a natural world champion. Maybe Sheamus looked crafty for being able to scout Cena's spots, it was a PPV main event after all. Putting the belt on Sheamus that early was a very stupid move, Cena and Orton weren't willing to make him look strong. Sheamus has had to start from the bottom after that title reign because Cena and Orton rode roughshod over him in every one of their matches with Sheamus.

Agreed... but I'm really not hiding behind bad booking. It seemed like a storyline intended to keep Cena out of the Main event picture. I don't agree that Barrett should've gone over.

The storyline was to promote Cena, and to jerk around anyone who would campaign that Cena should turn heel. I don't know if Wade was worth the effort, but he most certainly wasn't better off for working with Cena.

Okay well, Extreme Rules Ryback puts Cena through the stage in a last man standing match leaving Cena laying there forever, and Ryback getting up afterwards making it look as if he SHOULD be the champion. Made him look strong as hell. Ryback wasn't going to be WWE champion yet and it's not because of Cena. It's because he clearly wasn't ready If they were going to do that they should've put him over Punk when he was red hot. Cena didn't bury Ryback. He made him look better at Extreme Rules, he made their matches entertaining and Ryback always looked monster like in those matches.

I never said that Cena buried Ryback. I'm not accusing Cena of making these guys look illegitimate if fate decided that they would look as such. I'm questioning the explanations given to suggest that Cena put in an effort to put them over.

Looking that way in a match is great, props to Cena for making the match more interesting for it. Having anything to show for it is what really matters when you consider whether or not you've benefited from working a program with John Cena. Maybe Ryback just lost his mojo, either way he's not an example of someone who was put over by John Cena. Ryback already looked strong because up until that point nobody had beaten him in a legit manner, Cena looked even stronger for the match.

Miz did kick out of the AA, he did suffer a concussion and he still found a way to win, whether that's because of the Rock or not, he still found a way.

You might remember that and tip your hat to Miz for the accomplishment, those occurrences weren't the overwhelming vibe that the match gave to the audience. The ending to that match was meant to hype Cena vs Rock, Miz doesn't fall into that equation and it overshadowed any occurrence that you might interpret as having put Miz over.

Umaga still could've been dominate. The match with Cena was a war, it could've put Umaga over more. In fact it should've. Have you ever watched RR 07? First off Umaga looks like a monster as he dominates but not only that but when Cena makes his comeback. He does everything to Umaga. He throws the stairs at him while Umaga's outside. He drives his head into the stairs with a flashback, hits a suplex on them. Crushes his head between the steel post and a camera monitor. And yet Umaga is still going, he goes through the table, still going..... And still looks like he's dominating. It takes Cena choking the life out of him with a ring rope, until he passes out to beat Umaga. Umaga was still an unstoppable monster, and was still booked as such. Umaga still looked pretty unbeatable considering what Cena had to do. This was the moment imo that hurt Umaga in the long run. In the context of that match Cena put over Umaga and made him look like a beast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1a18a5azxc

In the context of that match, Umaga put Cena way the hell over. It would have been irresponsible to not allow Umaga the spots he was given due to how strong his build was going into the match. I didn't take Umaga any more seriously after the match than I did before hand, he already had a list of high profile wins under his belt. Cena overcame yet another huge obstacle in his way, and all the life was snuffed out of Umaga's momentum.

Here's my point that's there jobs. Comparing Cena to these guys is stupid as fuck. Cena was already in a feud with Angle, Taker, Brock, and those guys were never NEAR where Cena. No one would've ever bought Cena being Bull or Rodney Mack's underling. The fact is that you're trying to say Cena was on the same level as those two and there was NEVER a point in his WWE career where they were on the same level. Cena's first Feud was a program with Kurt Angle, better than anything the other two did in their whole careers. Cena was already being groomed and a bigger deal than both of them. His first feud was bigger than their careers. No Way were they ever close to the same level. You can try to make it look that way but honestly you're calling me a moron while suggesting that there was ever a point where Cena and Bull Buchanan were on the same level. Yeah that's brilliance.

Oh, Cena complimented Kurt Angle better than Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho or Brock Lesnar? Umm, no. Cena was in a feud with Kurt Angle because he was already chosen as a future number one guy and Kurt was the best option to get him over early on, none of their matches are considered to be the best of either performer's career.

Cena wanted to have a white rapper gimmick, so of course the WWE automatically let him have it. They paired him up with Bull Buchanan, which was career suicide for Bull Buchanan. Cena was a white rapper that nobody took seriously, so Bull Buchanan had to play a hype man that nobody took seriously. For all of Bull's abilities, he was forced to compliment one of the most fucking stupid gimmicks in pro-wrestling history. John still wanted to be taken seriously as a white rapper from the ghetto of West Newbury Massachusetts, and Rodney Mack happened to be a black guy. Rodney Mack then had to invest his potential in making John Cena appear to be down with black people. I didn't decide that Rodney Mack and Bull Buchanan were on John Cena's level, WWE creative decided as much. John Cena was going to get pushed to the top regardless of anything, the people who helped him get there were quickly written off the show when they were considered no longer useful for having accomplished as much.

Well then Cena put over Sheamus, Punk, Bryan, Umaga, Edge, Cesaro, and many many others.

Not to me, I only just explained why.

Then Everyone that ever faced Edge during that period made Edge look weak. Cena wasn't the first or last person to kick out of the spear. Edge used underhanded tactics all the time to beat Taker, and many others. I already made sense of the Sheamus match, and the Punk match, like I said, what was Cena supposed to do hit him with a bus and have Punk kick out? That's the only thing that seems like it would've made you happy.

No shit they made Edge look weak. Edge wasn't allowed to look like a serious world title contender until after his Royal Rumble win. Playing the fall guy in nearly every encounter is an excuse to be on tv, but it isn't being made to look strong.

All Cena had to do was wrestle Punk without any distractions, and I would have been happy. Lay down like a professional, or fucking win for all I care. I would have hated to see John pin Punk, but I would have accepted it. I don't need Punk to look like superman by kicking out of every finisher in the book, I want him to win on his own merits and that's all.

Wait, What does what happened after Cena put over Sheamus have to do with Sheamus being put over. Sheamus looked good the night he beat Cena, Cena made the rookie mistake while the Rookie kept his cool in the biggest match of his life. Cena put him over, what happens after that isn't on Cena. (btw I knew you'd bring that up but it goes with the whole point of Cena does put alot of guys over but it doesn't always mean that those people are going to surpass him)

Oh good fucking grief, review what you said. You supplemented your point that Cena put Sheamus over by saying:
"Again Sheamus who was looked at like he had no chance to beat Cena did just that, and was a strong world champion after that." You decided that it was a relevant point, not me.

Cena doesn't let performers surpass him because he rarely allows them go over him, especially if you're expecting a clean victory. Doing so might help them be taken a little more seriously as a world champion, that can never be proven because the only people Cena has ever laid down for clean were already at world championship status on the card.

Umm yeah it kind of does, Edge couldn't hang with Cena, that was the bases of the storyline. But Edge found ways to beat Cena because he was intelligent. Don't believe me? Okay, you forgot a bit of history though. First, Edge beat Cena to win his first WWE title. Which made him look intelligent. Waiting for the best moment to strike is smart. Then he won his second WWE championship by outsmarting Cena once again. By hitting Cena with the belt and pinning RVD in a Triple threat match. Looks pretty f'n intelligent and crafty to me. I guess you have to hate John Cena with all of your heart and soul not to see that.

We're getting very liberal with our use of the term "intelligent" aren't we?

Edge had a free opportunity to have a title match under any circumstances which was earned in a haphazard ladder match, and he was more intelligent for using it while John was selling like death? From my perspective, he's just a lucky asshole and could have had the intelligence of celebrity jeopardy contestant.

Oh, Cena put Edge over as intelligent by getting hit with a belt? Edge looked more intelligent, on Cena's behalf, because he pinned RVD? Looks like business as usual for a heel in a pro-wrestling match, it doesn't make him look like he exploited a lack of insight on behalf of the status quo. Edge looked like a jerk, and he only did as much to compliment Cena and RVD as faces.

Cena has put ALOT of people over, and it's all in the definition of put over. Some would say Andre didn't put Hogan over, I believe he did. My main argument is you aren't giving Cena credit for putting anyone over. Such guys like Edge, Punk, and others. You just dismiss, that my problem with your statements, and you're wrong about that.

What I'm doing good sir, is sharing my perspective on the matter. Your definitive understanding is clashing with my definitive understanding and it's helping us revisit our reasoning for our stalwart whims.

I would absolutely never say that Andre didn't put Hogan over, or vice versa. I'm not giving Cena credit for putting people over because from my perspective he does a piss poor job of it. I expect more of him because I know that his fan-base isn't going to just abandon him because he took a clean loss to Punk, the WWE literally has a cult of personality the likes of which is on par with Punk in John Cena and I don't see him using his popularity to its fullest potential in regard to helping other performers look strong.

You're the one cursing like a child and implying that you can't be wrong. But okay let's go. In you Reply you said that the fans would've been happy to see Brock vs anyone. I disagree, I don't think anyone would want to see that. That's where I disagree with you, but I do agree Cena in no way put over broke.

Just do me a huge favor, don't respond to anything I say if all you have to offer is one condescending sentence. Saying "I agree with you, for the most part" doesn't fly with me. You have to put your thoughts into words or shut the fuck up.

Brock's return was huge, fans wanted to see him destroy something. Cena was his target. I agree that Cena was one Hell of a high profile target for Brock, but he wasn't essential to Brock's return being taken seriously.

I already explained this but let's do this again. Cena hit him with three AA's, and couldn't finish him. Punk already had him beat before Vince and Johnny showed up. And the only way Cena could've beaten Punk was for Punk to be screwed. That's the story that match told. Punk has never looked as good as he did that night, and probably never will again. Get over yourself, and realize that Cena has put some people over. Punk being one of them. To me it seems like the only way you'll give Cena any credit for putting someone over is if Punk came into the ring and slapped Cena and he fell down and acted like he was knocked out and lost in 8 seconds.

Then therefore you concede that it wasn't a clean victory, moving on.

Could've been anyone, Hogan was already validated with a 4 years reign as world champion. Beating Andre and all that validated him. Earthquakes existence did little but give Hogan another guy to beat.

But here's the thing; Earthquake wasn't a slouch in his feud with Hogan. It damn well could have been anyone, but Earthquake was the best option at the time to compliment Hogan's abilities. He was a fresh heel who had momentum and was more over than any heel at the time.

Don't dump on the contributions of Hogan's opponents just as an excuse to make me look less credible. John Tenta was an amazing talent who was all class and played his role for everyone's benefit. It worked, and he'll be remembered by me for that.

I'll wait till the end of the year when it's on the list and we'll revisit this. Sound fair.

Well you know what dude, doing my own research I can't find a single list that already recognizes the match. Not taking anything away from the match, it was a good match. If that's what you wanted me to admit, then there you go.

Then every top rope move should be gone. Savage's top rope elbow when he points to the sky takes far more than 3 second, eight to ten actually. As did punks , as do most top rope finishers.

Oh good grief, we're really starting to water down the definition of plausible here. A top rope move is a high impact maneuver that's dramatic on it's own and may occasionally involve show-boating, the five knuckle shuffle is nothing but show-boating. I take top rope moves more seriously and find them to be more plausible because of the supposed effect they have on a downed opponent, slowly punching someone's head looks silly to me and doesn't require so much pageantry.

I'm not suggesting that the five knuckle shuffle should be banned from the ring. Its plausibility became a topic of discussion because Slyfox suggested that Ric Flair wasn't believable enough to be considered on par with John Cena. The five knuckle shuffle is a move that people pay money to see, I'm not asking that every second of the show cater to what I find plausible. Just don't write off a bonafide legend like Ric Flair for reasons that contradict a fascination with John Cena.

You mean like Cena did for Umaga when he could barely stand through the second portion of the match or when he couldn't continue when Ryback left him laying out cold at the end of the LMS match.

Here's the difference. Flair laid down for potential world champions AND for established world champions. John doesn't drop a belt to someone unless there's a fluke, or unless they've already earned their stripes as world champions. John always overcomes, which shows that in spite of his opponent's abilities they didn't have the chops to hang with the big boys.

No my point is that just because you put someone over doesn't mean that they get over. Alot of it has to with what happens after that. Cena put over Umaga as a monster, and Ryback.

And my point is that Ron Garvin didn't benefit by beating Flair. He became a victim of abusive booking and few people recognize his name as that of a World Champion. Cena didn't put Umaga over as a monster, Umaga put Umaga over as a monster. Umaga had a role to play as did Cena, it was mandated that Umaga get some high spots where he flattens Cena. Ryback was already the guy who could destroy two ordinary men in the time it takes to tie your shoe, he was already the guy that nobody had come close to legitimately beating. Looking that way during the match was everyone's job, John Cena didn't give him his gimmick.

No you're putting words into text.Truth is that Flair put over Sting, when sting rolled flair up in a fluky fashion to win the WCW title, you're not denying that Flair put over Sting. Sting was a powerhouse but beat flair with a roll up. Yes flair put over Sting the same way Cena put over Sheamus. Steamboat beat flair for the title with Flairs foot under the rope. Winning clean over flair in an impressive fashion was rare, and Flair was the heel, Cena's face and puts people over in a similar fashion. What's the difference between Punk covering Cena with Cena's foot on the ropes and Flair being pinned with his foot under the ropes? Still puts both over. You are saying that Cena isn't putting people over in the course of the match, my argument is that it's clear he does and you're just bias.

The difference is that you're using two examples that I didn't even bring up. If you really want to split hairs you'll very easily find a way to compare Flair to John Cena, and for the record your examples are spot on and speak well of you.

The argument was based on the idea that Flair is a poor example of someone who put over more people than John Cena, the points I made involved people who I saw as finding their fame because of their work with Ric Flair. I admit that I brought up Garvin and he was a bad example.

No I know that people are better than Cena, but then again that doesn't take away from the point that Cena made people look great.

Then don't insult Ric Flair on behalf of making him seem like he's less of a legend than John Cena.

Orton, Triple H, Umaga, Batista and Ryback all laid down for Cena. All looked strong as hell against Cena.

Here's the difference. Ric Flair would have never made an opponent look as invincible as John Cena because that would have been irresponsible story telling. Ric Flair had to maintain a reputation as someone who could get the job done, and he would prove as much of his opponents if it made sense.

John Cena doesn't leave a match with an up and comer unless either he's winning, or there was a fluke involved. Putting his shoulders to the mat fairly is almost impossible and is on Mil Mascaras status for likelihood of ever happening again.

It was a small percentage. Flair did make people look good but so does Cena.

Then you were wrong to suggest that Flair didn't contribute by giving a performer with potential the reputation he needed to make the leap.

I was agreeing with you, why you had to yell like a moron for me agreeing is beyond me.

Pardon me for interpreting sarcasm, but you said that you agree with me on the notion that Bret Hart winning the belt at a house show was more significant than Bret Hart winning the belt on tv. I never suggested this and I demonstrated in my response that I think that's absolutely not true. I wasn't yelling like a moron, I was responding to an idiot and sometimes you have to raise your voice with them.

Cena made Ryback and Umaga look like monsters, he made Punk look invincible and he made Edge look like the smartest guy in the room. You just don't give him credit for anything. Cena put many many people over. More than most have in their prime. You're argument is that flair put over people with his in ring work. I think Cena put over Cesaro and punk, and bryan win, lose, or draw. He put over many others along the way. Made others look like monster and made alot of people look great in the course of his matches much like flair.

Determine for yourself if for all you claim Cena's done for those guys, you took them more seriously for it.

I've given Cena credit on plenty of occasions and just for the record I'll give him some credit now.

John Cena is a GOOD role model for children.

John Cena is a great guy for his Make A Wish contributions.

John Cena is GOOD on the mic. He's not a good rapper, but he delivers promos on par with what I expect of someone at the top.

John Cena belongs on the show. He's a significant part of the continuity and it wouldn't feel the same without him.

John Cena deserves to be recognized as a Hall of Famer after he leaves. For better or worse, I'm a wrestling fan today and the business made more money thanks to him.

John Cena is a BETTER wrestler than most. I fucking hate his style and his moves, I've made no bones about that. How he performs as a wrestler is beyond the effect his gimmick has on me, the man has impressed me more than once by calling interesting spots on the fly. If the crowd is jeering the shit out of him, he lets that translate into the pace of the match in a good way.

I don't give him credit for making Punk look like a legitimate world champion or for making Umaga look like a monster because I believe that they were already of that status before their encounters with John Cena.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

Look at it from both angles. Indeed, John allowed Punk to kick out of three AAs. Ask yourself this: As over as Punk was at the time, would the majority of the WWE fan-base have accepted Punk getting pinned for the first or any subsequent AA? The answer is no, they wouldn't have accepted that as the finish of the match. Punk was already over to the point where kicking out of the AA was no shock to the viewers at home and the fans in attendance.

The fluke was that John Laurinaitis and HHH were about to pull a fast one, and John let his guard down so he could look noble. CM Punk didn't beat John clean, John has never humbled himself to allow a more over performer in CM Punk a clean victory.



Right right right. Here's the thing; The fans didn't need all that pizazz to tell this story, and I realize that it's not Cena's fault that so many distractions were invested in the finish. Indeed, they were both distracted by Vince and Johnny Ace. If either one of them won at that point, it would have been a fluke. Either Cena could only win with the aid of outside forces, or Punk could only win due to John Cena's gullibility when it comes to doing the right thing. At that point, nobody was beating anybody clean.



And the only way Punk can win the match is due to John Cena having his noble spidey senses overcome with the reality that Vince is trying to fix the match. Let's see what eventually happened.



Punk never looked stronger before that match? I acknowledge that kicking out of someone's finisher is big deal even in the context I'm about to explain. John Cena was not coming out of this match with the belt, it didn't make any sense on paper or in anyone's imagination. At this point in his career he looked more ridiculous than ever and taking a break would help bump up his title count. Punk didn't lay down for any AAs, and Cena only laid down for a GTS that happened because he refused to let Vince fix the match like the benevolent boy scout he is. Punk kicking out of the AA made Punk look just as good as we already knew he was, Punk was leaving that arena with the belt under any circumstances.

God forbid, Cena actually lay down for Punk as the finish of a match where no AA was performed and Punk managed to win by his abilities alone.




I think the one thing we may be able to agree on is that we both look at CM Punk very differently as a performer.

From my perspective, Punk had put on matches worthy of Match of the Year status well before his feud with Cena. Punk was the reason that his match with Cena was so damn memorable, and Punk would have made it a Match of the Year candidate with or without Cena. The integrity of Punk's win was tainted by outside distractions, only Cena marks regard it as a clean win.



Oh, we're using the term "helped" now? I get it, kind of like how cheerleaders get Superbowl rings. For some people the Ultimate Opportunist thing was a cute niche for Edge to have among the various gimmicks around at that time. Edge was a class act, so for him, the deal was that he cheat to win and thus put over his opponents as still looking strong.

The only thing that truly "helped" Edge get over in that it officially made him a serious world title contender was winning the Royal Rumble. When he won the belt in a legit manner at Hell in a Cell, he was then officially a mainstay world champion.

Edge was over enough for the spot well before John Cena even debuted, and he had to pay his dues by putting John Cena over. For paying his dues, he got the spot he deserved, not for any investment on John Cena's part.



Again, the way you see it and the way I see it are obviously two very different perspectives. Sheamus didn't look like a rookie beyond his years because John Cena fell backwards through a table. Nothing that happened in that match, or during Sheamus' lackluster title run suggested that Sheamus was a natural world champion. Maybe Sheamus looked crafty for being able to scout Cena's spots, it was a PPV main event after all. Putting the belt on Sheamus that early was a very stupid move, Cena and Orton weren't willing to make him look strong. Sheamus has had to start from the bottom after that title reign because Cena and Orton rode roughshod over him in every one of their matches with Sheamus.



The storyline was to promote Cena, and to jerk around anyone who would campaign that Cena should turn heel. I don't know if Wade was worth the effort, but he most certainly wasn't better off for working with Cena.



I never said that Cena buried Ryback. I'm not accusing Cena of making these guys look illegitimate if fate decided that they would look as such. I'm questioning the explanations given to suggest that Cena put in an effort to put them over.

Looking that way in a match is great, props to Cena for making the match more interesting for it. Having anything to show for it is what really matters when you consider whether or not you've benefited from working a program with John Cena. Maybe Ryback just lost his mojo, either way he's not an example of someone who was put over by John Cena. Ryback already looked strong because up until that point nobody had beaten him in a legit manner, Cena looked even stronger for the match.



You might remember that and tip your hat to Miz for the accomplishment, those occurrences weren't the overwhelming vibe that the match gave to the audience. The ending to that match was meant to hype Cena vs Rock, Miz doesn't fall into that equation and it overshadowed any occurrence that you might interpret as having put Miz over.



In the context of that match, Umaga put Cena way the hell over. It would have been irresponsible to not allow Umaga the spots he was given due to how strong his build was going into the match. I didn't take Umaga any more seriously after the match than I did before hand, he already had a list of high profile wins under his belt. Cena overcame yet another huge obstacle in his way, and all the life was snuffed out of Umaga's momentum.



Oh, Cena complimented Kurt Angle better than Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho or Brock Lesnar? Umm, no. Cena was in a feud with Kurt Angle because he was already chosen as a future number one guy and Kurt was the best option to get him over early on, none of their matches are considered to be the best of either performer's career.

Cena wanted to have a white rapper gimmick, so of course the WWE automatically let him have it. They paired him up with Bull Buchanan, which was career suicide for Bull Buchanan. Cena was a white rapper that nobody took seriously, so Bull Buchanan had to play a hype man that nobody took seriously. For all of Bull's abilities, he was forced to compliment one of the most fucking stupid gimmicks in pro-wrestling history. John still wanted to be taken seriously as a white rapper from the ghetto of West Newbury Massachusetts, and Rodney Mack happened to be a black guy. Rodney Mack then had to invest his potential in making John Cena appear to be down with black people. I didn't decide that Rodney Mack and Bull Buchanan were on John Cena's level, WWE creative decided as much. John Cena was going to get pushed to the top regardless of anything, the people who helped him get there were quickly written off the show when they were considered no longer useful for having accomplished as much.



Not to me, I only just explained why.



No shit they made Edge look weak. Edge wasn't allowed to look like a serious world title contender until after his Royal Rumble win. Playing the fall guy in nearly every encounter is an excuse to be on tv, but it isn't being made to look strong.

All Cena had to do was wrestle Punk without any distractions, and I would have been happy. Lay down like a professional, or fucking win for all I care. I would have hated to see John pin Punk, but I would have accepted it. I don't need Punk to look like superman by kicking out of every finisher in the book, I want him to win on his own merits and that's all.



Oh good fucking grief, review what you said. You supplemented your point that Cena put Sheamus over by saying:
"Again Sheamus who was looked at like he had no chance to beat Cena did just that, and was a strong world champion after that." You decided that it was a relevant point, not me.

Cena doesn't let performers surpass him because he rarely allows them go over him, especially if you're expecting a clean victory. Doing so might help them be taken a little more seriously as a world champion, that can never be proven because the only people Cena has ever laid down for clean were already at world championship status on the card.



We're getting very liberal with our use of the term "intelligent" aren't we?

Edge had a free opportunity to have a title match under any circumstances which was earned in a haphazard ladder match, and he was more intelligent for using it while John was selling like death? From my perspective, he's just a lucky asshole and could have had the intelligence of celebrity jeopardy contestant.

Oh, Cena put Edge over as intelligent by getting hit with a belt? Edge looked more intelligent, on Cena's behalf, because he pinned RVD? Looks like business as usual for a heel in a pro-wrestling match, it doesn't make him look like he exploited a lack of insight on behalf of the status quo. Edge looked like a jerk, and he only did as much to compliment Cena and RVD as faces.



What I'm doing good sir, is sharing my perspective on the matter. Your definitive understanding is clashing with my definitive understanding and it's helping us revisit our reasoning for our stalwart whims.

I would absolutely never say that Andre didn't put Hogan over, or vice versa. I'm not giving Cena credit for putting people over because from my perspective he does a piss poor job of it. I expect more of him because I know that his fan-base isn't going to just abandon him because he took a clean loss to Punk, the WWE literally has a cult of personality the likes of which is on par with Punk in John Cena and I don't see him using his popularity to its fullest potential in regard to helping other performers look strong.



Just do me a huge favor, don't respond to anything I say if all you have to offer is one condescending sentence. Saying "I agree with you, for the most part" doesn't fly with me. You have to put your thoughts into words or shut the fuck up.

Brock's return was huge, fans wanted to see him destroy something. Cena was his target. I agree that Cena was one Hell of a high profile target for Brock, but he wasn't essential to Brock's return being taken seriously.



Then therefore you concede that it wasn't a clean victory, moving on.



But here's the thing; Earthquake wasn't a slouch in his feud with Hogan. It damn well could have been anyone, but Earthquake was the best option at the time to compliment Hogan's abilities. He was a fresh heel who had momentum and was more over than any heel at the time.

Don't dump on the contributions of Hogan's opponents just as an excuse to make me look less credible. John Tenta was an amazing talent who was all class and played his role for everyone's benefit. It worked, and he'll be remembered by me for that.



Well you know what dude, doing my own research I can't find a single list that already recognizes the match. Not taking anything away from the match, it was a good match. If that's what you wanted me to admit, then there you go.



Oh good grief, we're really starting to water down the definition of plausible here. A top rope move is a high impact maneuver that's dramatic on it's own and may occasionally involve show-boating, the five knuckle shuffle is nothing but show-boating. I take top rope moves more seriously and find them to be more plausible because of the supposed effect they have on a downed opponent, slowly punching someone's head looks silly to me and doesn't require so much pageantry.

I'm not suggesting that the five knuckle shuffle should be banned from the ring. Its plausibility became a topic of discussion because Slyfox suggested that Ric Flair wasn't believable enough to be considered on par with John Cena. The five knuckle shuffle is a move that people pay money to see, I'm not asking that every second of the show cater to what I find plausible. Just don't write off a bonafide legend like Ric Flair for reasons that contradict a fascination with John Cena.



Here's the difference. Flair laid down for potential world champions AND for established world champions. John doesn't drop a belt to someone unless there's a fluke, or unless they've already earned their stripes as world champions. John always overcomes, which shows that in spite of his opponent's abilities they didn't have the chops to hang with the big boys.



And my point is that Ron Garvin didn't benefit by beating Flair. He became a victim of abusive booking and few people recognize his name as that of a World Champion. Cena didn't put Umaga over as a monster, Umaga put Umaga over as a monster. Umaga had a role to play as did Cena, it was mandated that Umaga get some high spots where he flattens Cena. Ryback was already the guy who could destroy two ordinary men in the time it takes to tie your shoe, he was already the guy that nobody had come close to legitimately beating. Looking that way during the match was everyone's job, John Cena didn't give him his gimmick.



The difference is that you're using two examples that I didn't even bring up. If you really want to split hairs you'll very easily find a way to compare Flair to John Cena, and for the record your examples are spot on and speak well of you.

The argument was based on the idea that Flair is a poor example of someone who put over more people than John Cena, the points I made involved people who I saw as finding their fame because of their work with Ric Flair. I admit that I brought up Garvin and he was a bad example.



Then don't insult Ric Flair on behalf of making him seem like he's less of a legend than John Cena.



Here's the difference. Ric Flair would have never made an opponent look as invincible as John Cena because that would have been irresponsible story telling. Ric Flair had to maintain a reputation as someone who could get the job done, and he would prove as much of his opponents if it made sense.

John Cena doesn't leave a match with an up and comer unless either he's winning, or there was a fluke involved. Putting his shoulders to the mat fairly is almost impossible and is on Mil Mascaras status for likelihood of ever happening again.



Then you were wrong to suggest that Flair didn't contribute by giving a performer with potential the reputation he needed to make the leap.



Pardon me for interpreting sarcasm, but you said that you agree with me on the notion that Bret Hart winning the belt at a house show was more significant than Bret Hart winning the belt on tv. I never suggested this and I demonstrated in my response that I think that's absolutely not true. I wasn't yelling like a moron, I was responding to an idiot and sometimes you have to raise your voice with them.



Determine for yourself if for all you claim Cena's done for those guys, you took them more seriously for it.

I've given Cena credit on plenty of occasions and just for the record I'll give him some credit now.

John Cena is a GOOD role model for children.

John Cena is a great guy for his Make A Wish contributions.

John Cena is GOOD on the mic. He's not a good rapper, but he delivers promos on par with what I expect of someone at the top.

John Cena belongs on the show. He's a significant part of the continuity and it wouldn't feel the same without him.

John Cena deserves to be recognized as a Hall of Famer after he leaves. For better or worse, I'm a wrestling fan today and the business made more money thanks to him.

John Cena is a BETTER wrestler than most. I fucking hate his style and his moves, I've made no bones about that. How he performs as a wrestler is beyond the effect his gimmick has on me, the man has impressed me more than once by calling interesting spots on the fly. If the crowd is jeering the shit out of him, he lets that translate into the pace of the match in a good way.

I don't give him credit for making Punk look like a legitimate world champion or for making Umaga look like a monster because I believe that they were already of that status before their encounters with John Cena.

Just going to chime in. I've been following Punk since his 90 minute match with hero in IWA, he was not at all as over pre Cena. Without Cena, punk has no foil and summer of punk never happens. The program with Cena elevated him. Just like Cena did with Bryan last year. I've been a Bryan fan since 2002.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Sly, I'm not going to go 'quote for quote', because this page is getting long enough. Allow me to address some of your points though.

- we'll have to agree to disagree on Umaga. You feel that Cena made Umaga. I feel that Umaga was made to put over Cena

- disagree again on Miz. I'll stand by what I said. If working with Cena got Miz over more, then he should have left the feud looking stronger than when he went in. I don't feel that he did.

- Edge broke through to the main event finally by working with Cena, and stayed there in part because he was good enough to do so. 2006 was arguably the best year of his career Cena did put Edge over. I'd argue though that working with Foley at WM that year did more for him. Working with Cena put over the 'Ultimate Opportunist' character, but he also had a hard time beating Cena straight up. Working with Foley really put over how Edge could do anything

- I wouldn't say Hogan made Zeus look incredible. Like I said initially, that came off as about as phoney as it got. Then again, no one was going to make an untrained actor like Tiny Lister look like a World Champ. Hogan did as good as he possibly could have.

- Regarding Earthquake, I think this comes down to a weird viewpoint you seem to have regarding past and current wrestlers. It's something I noticed last year when we were arguing about Owen Hart. You seem to view someones ability strictly by how they were placed on the card throughout their career. If they were on top the entire time (like Hogan), then they were the absolute best at everything. If they weren't (like Earthquake), then they were lesser workers, lesser wrestlers... lesser everythings. It's not exactly true. You're ignoring politics, motivation, circumstance... so many different things. Tenta was a great big man worker. He wasn't going to be the guy that was the top dog. With his look and skill set, he was always going to be the guy that helped make the top dog look good. He wasn't just some fat guy that got to work with Hulk Hogan. He was a great worker that helped keep Hulk Hogan strong (if Hogan didn't have great workers to work with... if ANY champion doesn't have great workers to work with... then they don't come across as being great champions in their own rights).

- Regarding Flair, without meaning offense, I just find it really funny that you can claim that Flair always worked the exact same match, while Hogan didn't. It's just not true. Both men after a while settled into the same routine, just like both men, before that could work far more diverse matches. The thing with Flair, is that he was a great worker. That is what he built his reputation on. Everything else you said about him was true, but it was his work inside the ring that allowed the rest of that to be true. Back then, the NWA wouldn't put the title on a guy that couldn't work. It just wasn't done. They took themselves very seriously when it came to the championship. It was actually a bit of a departure for them to allow someone with an obviously gimmicked name like Ric Flair to be their champion, as this was previously one of the strict rules they enforced with their champions. They did it because they couldn't deny that Flair had it all. Also, you don't have as many classics with as many different opponents as Flair did by always working the same match night after night... or by just being an 'average' worker. You're wrong on this one.

- 5 knuckle shuffle versus corner flip? Like I said, both ridiculous spots. Both unrealistic. You feel that a 5 knuckle shuffle is more realistic? I say if a guy is beat up so bad that he is immobile for that long to allow Cena to pull off that entire routine... then why doesn't Cena just pin him and win the match? And why can't he get the pin right after using it? The spot is just a rip off of the People's Elbow (another ridiculous spot), and the only reason I brought it up was to illustrate that if Flair has his spots that pull you out of his matches, then Cena does as well.

and yes, I understand psychology in wrestling. Probably better than most. Both are just spots to make the fans pop because they're fun visuals.

- Regarding Flair not putting over Hart because the match wasn't televised? Regardless of the reasons (and yeah I remember it happening how you said it now)... back then you also have to remember that it wasn't always a given that every major thing would happen on screen. It was absolutely a rarity that it didn't, and yes Flair could have worked something with Hart afterwards to make up for it... but like I said, that one example doesn't take away from the countless other times that Flair did put others over.

- I like your last point, and yes, I'm not arguing against Cena at all (I'm not a fan of his, but I can respect what he does). I would also mention guys like Hart, Rock, Foley especially (his later career was all about making stars out of people), Jericho as guys who have done this just as well, or maybe even better than Cena. Cena's big thing, and it makes sense considering his position in the company, is putting people over while not losing his own heat... and he's very good at it. Most people don't seem to understand that because of who he is, that's how it has to be done.

 

[Slyfox696]

Only biased people like you stick their fucking heads in the sand and outright deny the obvious if it questions the validity of their favorite performer. CM Punk's win was NOT clean, John was distracted and Punk took advantage.

Punk's win was 100% clean. You arguing Punk's win wasn't clean is like saying basketball team A didn't win fairly against basketball team B because team B dribbled the ball out of bounds on the last shot instead of making a basket. It's asinine to say Punk's win wasn't clean. Cena made a mistake, Punk capitalized on the mistake and Punk won. It was completely clean and only a dumbass would say otherwise.

Oh, look...here you are!

You can accuse me of revising history based on my own whims

I "accuse" you of that because that's exactly what you're doing. You're ignoring what the reality of the time was to justify a negative campaign against John Cena. The fact you're trying to tell me CM Punk didn't gain any legitimacy because of his feud with John Cena is a prime example.

When you're ready to discuss this topic with truth instead of revisionist history, let me know and I'll bother to read the rest of this post.

The Rock and Stone Cold NEVER acted afraid of the Undertaker. I don't know what the big deal is. Oh, right....it's Cena, thus, everything he does you supposedly hate (but just enough to make a thread about it, spend time arguing it, booing him at the arena, and making a sign to say you hate him).

The Cena hate has become a joke. Most people have moved beyond that and realize that Cena works you into booing him just as much as he works others into cheering him. The audience isn't homogeneous. One act can be a heel to some, a face to the other. Not a stupid ass "tweener". Like Superman. Some people love the character, some hate it, it is what it is. Bottom line, you're talking about him more than anyone else.

At this point, I believe it's only kids (meaning teenagers) and idiots who still push the Cena hate. I think most people with a modicum of wrestling knowledge and/or experience recognize how much good Cena has done for the pro wrestling world, even if they are personally not a fan.

Sly, I'm not going to go 'quote for quote', because this page is getting long enough. Allow me to address some of your points though.

- we'll have to agree to disagree on Umaga. You feel that Cena made Umaga. I feel that Umaga was made to put over Cena

- disagree again on Miz. I'll stand by what I said. If working with Cena got Miz over more, then he should have left the feud looking stronger than when he went in. I don't feel that he did.

Cena didn't "make" Umaga so much as he made him seem that much more legitimate. He put him over. And as far as Miz goes, I guess I still don't see how working the main-event of Wrestlemania and leaving as champion isn't better than working the undercard as the champion against a 60 year old announcer.

- Edge broke through to the main event finally by working with Cena, and stayed there in part because he was good enough to do so. 2006 was arguably the best year of his career Cena did put Edge over. I'd argue though that working with Foley at WM that year did more for him. Working with Cena put over the 'Ultimate Opportunist' character, but he also had a hard time beating Cena straight up. Working with Foley really put over how Edge could do anything

The feud with Cena made Edge a legitimate main-event mainstay. Edge had been in plenty of gimmick matches before, but it was the feud with Cena which put him over completely. Obviously Edge was very skilled on the mic and in gimmick matches (though just fairly average in standard matches), but it was the Cena feud which made the audience truly accept Edge as a legitimate main-event threat.

- I wouldn't say Hogan made Zeus look incredible. Like I said initially, that came off as about as phoney as it got. Then again, no one was going to make an untrained actor like Tiny Lister look like a World Champ. Hogan did as good as he possibly could have.

Hogan made Zeus a believable monster.

Regarding Earthquake, I think this comes down to a weird viewpoint you seem to have regarding past and current wrestlers. It's something I noticed last year when we were arguing about Owen Hart. You seem to view someones ability strictly by how they were placed on the card throughout their career. If they were on top the entire time (like Hogan), then they were the absolute best at everything. If they weren't (like Earthquake), then they were lesser workers, lesser wrestlers... lesser everythings. It's not exactly true.

I don't view someone's ability based on their position of the card (see: my opinion of Flair), but it IS a very important factor to consider. The name of the game in pro wrestling is to make money. If someone makes money, their position on the card will be improved. The ability of a worker to make people care about him/her is what makes people pay money to watch them.

Now, obviously, there are breakdowns of various skills which help determine what makes a person able to get over with the crowd, but in its simplest form, making people care is what gets them to put down money to watch. And if a wrestler can get people to put down money to watch, then the promotion is going to do what they can to make the money.

You're ignoring politics, motivation, circumstance... so many different things.

But those are things which are generally overcome or overblown. Those who are great will rise to the top. If it wasn't in one place, it would be in another. If the AWA wouldn't give Hogan a chance to lead the company, then the WWF would.

Tenta was a great big man worker.

But he wasn't really. Hogan was a great big man worker. Undertaker was a great big man worker. Vader was a great big man worker. Brody is recognized as a great big man worker (I haven't seen enough to have an opinion). Big Show is a great big man worker.

John Tenta doesn't come close to any of those guys. The best you can say about John Tenta is that he was a decent hand, but that doesn't make him anything more than an average worker.

- Regarding Flair, without meaning offense, I just find it really funny that you can claim that Flair always worked the exact same match, while Hogan didn't.

Because it's true?

The thing with Flair, is that he was a great worker.

But he wasn't, that's the point. He was a great professional wrestler, but he wasn't a great worker.

That is what he built his reputation on. Everything else you said about him was true, but it was his work inside the ring that allowed the rest of that to be true. Back then, the NWA wouldn't put the title on a guy that couldn't work.

Yes they would. The NWA would put the title on a guy they could trust to help the various promotions in the alliance. It was as much political as it was about anything else.

- 5 knuckle shuffle versus corner flip? Like I said, both ridiculous spots. Both unrealistic.

Except they are not both unrealistic, only one of them is. We routinely see wrestlers laying on the mat for long periods of time, one of the more popular spots in wrestling for a long time was the double count with both wrestlers on the mat. It's still used extensively today.

A wrestler being out for a long period of time is not unique to wrestling. Running and flipping upside down in the corner is unrealistic in every way possible.

- Regarding Flair not putting over Hart because the match wasn't televised?

Exactly. The entire concept of putting someone over is making them better off than they were before. How was Hart better off from beating Flair in a match with no real build which was never shown on TV?

You just cannot say Flair put Hart over.

back then you also have to remember that it wasn't always a given that every major thing would happen on screen. It was absolutely a rarity that it didn't, and yes Flair could have worked something with Hart afterwards to make up for it... but like I said, that one example doesn't take away from the countless other times that Flair did put others over.

All I'm saying is one cannot claim Flair put Hart over.

- I like your last point, and yes, I'm not arguing against Cena at all (I'm not a fan of his, but I can respect what he does). I would also mention guys like Hart, Rock, Foley especially (his later career was all about making stars out of people), Jericho as guys who have done this just as well, or maybe even better than Cena. Cena's big thing, and it makes sense considering his position in the company, is putting people over while not losing his own heat... and he's very good at it. Most people don't seem to understand that because of who he is, that's how it has to be done.

Agreed.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

Look at it from both angles. Indeed, John allowed Punk to kick out of three AAs. Ask yourself this: As over as Punk was at the time, would the majority of the WWE fan-base have accepted Punk getting pinned for the first or any subsequent AA? The answer is no, they wouldn't have accepted that as the finish of the match. Punk was already over to the point where kicking out of the AA was no shock to the viewers at home and the fans in attendance.


The fluke was that John Laurinaitis and HHH were about to pull a fast one, and John let his guard down so he could look noble. CM Punk didn't beat John clean, John has never humbled himself to allow a more over performer in CM Punk a clean victory.

I see your point, but I'm going to say it like this. You don't have to agree but it's how I view it. Cena could've had Punk roll out of the ring after one AA, and Cena could've easily not made Punk look as good as Punk did. It was a great match and Punk looked damn near unbeatable.

Right right right. Here's the thing; The fans didn't need all that pizazz to tell this story, and I realize that it's not Cena's fault that so many distractions were invested in the finish. Indeed, they were both distracted by Vince and Johnny Ace. If either one of them won at that point, it would have been a fluke. Either Cena could only win with the aid of outside forces, or Punk could only win due to John Cena's gullibility when it comes to doing the right thing. At that point, nobody was beating anybody clean.

My point to this would be that that Punk was never on that level before that night. Even if Punk is just equal to Cena which is essentially what you're saying that's putting Punk over. Every other time Punk had been in the ring with a big star he had been made to look bad. Whether it was Taker or Trips, they always went over and over clean. Usually while making it look rather easy. Cena making Punk his equal put Punk at a level he'd never ascended to before. He put over Punk that night on that alone, imo

And the only way Punk can win the match is due to John Cena having his noble spidey senses overcome with the reality that Vince is trying to fix the match. Let's see what eventually happened.


Punk never looked stronger before that match? I acknowledge that kicking out of someone's finisher is big deal even in the context I'm about to explain. John Cena was not coming out of this match with the belt, it didn't make any sense on paper or in anyone's imagination. At this point in his career he looked more ridiculous than ever and taking a break would help bump up his title count. Punk didn't lay down for any AAs, and Cena only laid down for a GTS that happened because he refused to let Vince fix the match like the benevolent boy scout he is. Punk kicking out of the AA made Punk look just as good as we already knew he was, Punk was leaving that arena with the belt under any circumstances.


God forbid, Cena actually lay down for Punk as the finish of a match where no AA was performed and Punk managed to win by his abilities alone.

The match wouldn't have been as good without the drama of Punk kicking out of the second AA let alone the third. The greatness of that match is also what builds it. But my point is that being equal to Cena would've been putting over Punk like he had never been before. Punk was never equal to any huge star. Now not only was he equal to Cena but Cena couldn't get the best of Punk no matter what expense he went through.

I think the one thing we may be able to agree on is that we both look at CM Punk very differently as a performer.

From my perspective, Punk had put on matches worthy of Match of the Year status well before his feud with Cena. Punk was the reason that his match with Cena was so damn memorable, and Punk would have made it a Match of the Year candidate with or without Cena. The integrity of Punk's win was tainted by outside distractions, only Cena marks regard it as a clean win.

Yes Punk had put on MOTY all the way back to Punk and Joe. That said that was the biggest stage Punk was made to look like a superstar on that night. Bigger than he'd ever looked before.

Oh, we're using the term "helped" now? I get it, kind of like how cheerleaders get Superbowl rings. For some people the Ultimate Opportunist thing was a cute niche for Edge to have among the various gimmicks around at that time. Edge was a class act, so for him, the deal was that he cheat to win and thus put over his opponents as still looking strong.

Agreed but I don't think Edge ever looked bad and he was always a threat.

The only thing that truly "helped" Edge get over in that it officially made him a serious world title contender was winning the Royal Rumble. When he won the belt in a legit manner at Hell in a Cell, he was then officially a mainstay world champion.

Edge's whole gimmick basically came from the anti-Cena gimmick he had. The promo's with Cena helped get Edge over, plus I think the way Edge beat Cena made him look like a threat at all times. Putting Edge over.

Edge was over enough for the spot well before John Cena even debuted, and he had to pay his dues by putting John Cena over. For paying his dues, he got the spot he deserved, not for any investment on John Cena's part.

Whether or not he deserved that spot doesn't change the fact he didn't have that spot.

Again, the way you see it and the way I see it are obviously two very different perspectives. Sheamus didn't look like a rookie beyond his years because John Cena fell backwards through a table. Nothing that happened in that match, or during Sheamus' lackluster title run suggested that Sheamus was a natural world champion. Maybe Sheamus looked crafty for being able to scout Cena's spots, it was a PPV main event after all. Putting the belt on Sheamus that early was a very stupid move, Cena and Orton weren't willing to make him look strong. Sheamus has had to start from the bottom after that title reign because Cena and Orton rode roughshod over him in every one of their matches with Sheamus.

Yeah I agree it's a different perspective but seeing how you explained I can understand what you're saying. And I do agree Sheamus getting the belt was stupid. But I'd still say that Sheamus was put over that night. IMO.

The storyline was to promote Cena, and to jerk around anyone who would campaign that Cena should turn heel. I don't know if Wade was worth the effort, but he most certainly wasn't better off for working with Cena.

No he wasn't

I never said that Cena buried Ryback. I'm not accusing Cena of making these guys look illegitimate if fate decided that they would look as such. I'm questioning the explanations given to suggest that Cena put in an effort to put them over.

Well I do believe Ryback looked like a bigger threat, so much so people were complaining that Ryback was the LMS and should've been champion, That said, Ryback got buried after that and I hardly think that was on Cena.

Looking that way in a match is great, props to Cena for making the match more interesting for it. Having anything to show for it is what really matters when you consider whether or not you've benefited from working a program with John Cena. Maybe Ryback just lost his mojo, either way he's not an example of someone who was put over by John Cena. Ryback already looked strong because up until that point nobody had beaten him in a legit manner, Cena looked even stronger for the match.

Being put over and doing something with it are two different things. That's what I was trying to say with my thoughts on Flair (I should've stated this before. I wasn't trying to take anything away from flair). Flair put everyone over as a threat that's what made him great, problem is not everyone did something with it. Just like not everyone does it for Cena. Cena can make a guy look like a monster, but that doesn't mean that guy will be great. It just means he's given a chance. Flair made inferior opponents look like monsters, giving them a chance to build on that moment. What happened from there wasn't up to Flair just like it's not up to Cena.

You might remember that and tip your hat to Miz for the accomplishment, those occurrences weren't the overwhelming vibe that the match gave to the audience. The ending to that match was meant to hype Cena vs Rock, Miz doesn't fall into that equation and it overshadowed any occurrence that you might interpret as having put Miz over.

The way they did it sucked but Miz still ME Wrestlemania, and defended the belt. It put him over in the sense that not only was he a WM main eventer but he also defended the belt. Via hook or crook. They built on that with the R-truth and Miz storyline but they took the blame for bad numbers at a pay per view and the WWE buried both.

In the context of that match, Umaga put Cena way the hell over. It would have been irresponsible to not allow Umaga the spots he was given due to how strong his build was going into the match. I didn't take Umaga any more seriously after the match than I did before hand, he already had a list of high profile wins under his belt. Cena overcame yet another huge obstacle in his way, and all the life was snuffed out of Umaga's momentum.

Cena didn't have to bleed like a stuffed pig, he didn't had to let Umaga control most of the match, and he didn't have to win in a last ditch effort in a fluky way as he did. Like I said Umaga was still a monster coming out of that match. Triple H ruined Umaga when he overcame a two on one assault and just planted Umaga and left him lying and displaying him like a trophy.

Oh, Cena complimented Kurt Angle better than Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho or Brock Lesnar? Umm, no. Cena was in a feud with Kurt Angle because he was already chosen as a future number one guy and Kurt was the best option to get him over early on, none of their matches are considered to be the best of either performer's career.

Alright.

Cena wanted to have a white rapper gimmick, so of course the WWE automatically let him have it. They paired him up with Bull Buchanan, which was career suicide for Bull Buchanan. Cena was a white rapper that nobody took seriously, so Bull Buchanan had to play a hype man that nobody took seriously. For all of Bull's abilities, he was forced to compliment one of the most fucking stupid gimmicks in pro-wrestling history. John still wanted to be taken seriously as a white rapper from the ghetto of West Newbury Massachusetts, and Rodney Mack happened to be a black guy. Rodney Mack then had to invest his potential in making John Cena appear to be down with black people. I didn't decide that Rodney Mack and Bull Buchanan were on John Cena's level, WWE creative decided as much. John Cena was going to get pushed to the top regardless of anything, the people who helped him get there were quickly written off the show when they were considered no longer useful for having accomplished as much.

You said they were on the same level. that's where I was a little annoyed was you saying Bull and Rodney were on the same level as Cena. They never were, and were never going to be. Did they have to do demeaning things to help Cena. Yes, that said that's their jobs. Guys like them are meant to do that job. I could see your point if they gave someone great or even really good into that spot. But those guys were never going to do anything more. Their job was to get other guys over that's it. They were never on Cena's level.

No shit they made Edge look weak. Edge wasn't allowed to look like a serious world title contender until after his Royal Rumble win. Playing the fall guy in nearly every encounter is an excuse to be on tv, but it isn't being made to look strong.

He didn't look strong in a traditional sense, he looked intelligent and crafty.

All Cena had to do was wrestle Punk without any distractions, and I would have been happy. Lay down like a professional, or fucking win for all I care. I would have hated to see John pin Punk, but I would have accepted it. I don't need Punk to look like superman by kicking out of every finisher in the book, I want him to win on his own merits and that's all.

I see you point but Punk was never on that stage before and when he was on a big stage before that he'd been embarrassed for the most part. Cena put him over imo.

Oh good fucking grief, review what you said. You supplemented your point that Cena put Sheamus over by saying:
"Again Sheamus who was looked at like he had no chance to beat Cena did just that, and was a strong world champion after that." You decided that it was a relevant point, not me.

Agreed but I went and watched the match and the aftermath. And I'm willing to admit Sheamus didn't look strong in the aftermath and I was wrong. But it wasn't that match. I explained after I watched the match what I saw.

We're getting very liberal with our use of the term "intelligent" aren't we?

Edge had a free opportunity to have a title match under any circumstances which was earned in a haphazard ladder match, and he was more intelligent for using it while John was selling like death? From my perspective, he's just a lucky asshole and could have had the intelligence of celebrity jeopardy contestant.

Oh, Cena put Edge over as intelligent by getting hit with a belt? Edge looked more intelligent, on Cena's behalf, because he pinned RVD? Looks like business as usual for a heel in a pro-wrestling match, it doesn't make him look like he exploited a lack of insight on behalf of the status quo. Edge looked like a jerk, and he only did as much to compliment Cena and RVD as faces.

Yes, I actually thought Edge looked very smart pinning RVD instead of Cena in that match. Cena's a beast, he took Cena out of the equation and pinned the weaker opponent. It looked brilliant to me.

What I'm doing good sir, is sharing my perspective on the matter. Your definitive understanding is clashing with my definitive understanding and it's helping us revisit our reasoning for our stalwart whims.

I would absolutely never say that Andre didn't put Hogan over, or vice versa. I'm not giving Cena credit for putting people over because from my perspective he does a piss poor job of it. I expect more of him because I know that his fan-base isn't going to just abandon him because he took a clean loss to Punk, the WWE literally has a cult of personality the likes of which is on par with Punk in John Cena and I don't see him using his popularity to its fullest potential in regard to helping other performers look strong.

I do see your point and I appreciate it, I just disagree. Just on the fact of what Cena has to do to put someone over

Just do me a huge favor, don't respond to anything I say if all you have to offer is one condescending sentence. Saying "I agree with you, for the most part" doesn't fly with me. You have to put your thoughts into words or shut the fuck up.

Alright, I get the point but like I said, I just didn't think that Brock could've sold with just anyone.

Brock's return was huge, fans wanted to see him destroy something. Cena was his target. I agree that Cena was one Hell of a high profile target for Brock, but he wasn't essential to Brock's return being taken seriously.

No he wasn't and I totally agree with you there.

Then therefore you concede that it wasn't a clean victory, moving on.

Didn't have to be, the story it told made it a great match. Thus putting Punk over.

But here's the thing; Earthquake wasn't a slouch in his feud with Hogan. It damn well could have been anyone, but Earthquake was the best option at the time to compliment Hogan's abilities. He was a fresh heel who had momentum and was more over than any heel at the time.

Don't dump on the contributions of Hogan's opponents just as an excuse to make me look less credible. John Tenta was an amazing talent who was all class and played his role for everyone's benefit. It worked, and he'll be remembered by me for that.

Wasn't dumping on Tenta to make you less credible. I just believe hogan could've done the same thing with a Zeus or someone else.

Well you know what dude, doing my own research I can't find a single list that already recognizes the match. Not taking anything away from the match, it was a good match. If that's what you wanted me to admit, then there you go.

Actually I did a search and it's on multiple list as a MOTY candidate, but I'm not going to list every two cent site out there. I don't trust most sites and until MOTY is announce by PWI I hardly trust any site.

Oh good grief, we're really starting to water down the definition of plausible here. A top rope move is a high impact maneuver that's dramatic on it's own and may occasionally involve show-boating, the five knuckle shuffle is nothing but show-boating. I take top rope moves more seriously and find them to be more plausible because of the supposed effect they have on a downed opponent, slowly punching someone's head looks silly to me and doesn't require so much pageantry.

Okay, I get your point but I think it's aight. But just a question, is it what Cena does or is it that it's not feasible iyo? And on the same level, do you also dislike the people's elbow or when earthquake bounce off the ropes multiple times and seeming took forever to squash someone already out?

I'm not suggesting that the five knuckle shuffle should be banned from the ring. Its plausibility became a topic of discussion because Slyfox suggested that Ric Flair wasn't believable enough to be considered on par with John Cena. The five knuckle shuffle is a move that people pay money to see, I'm not asking that every second of the show cater to what I find plausible. Just don't write off a bonafide legend like Ric Flair for reasons that contradict a fascination with John Cena.

I should've separated myself from sly in this topic. Flair is better than Cena, I wasn't trying to demean flair, I just find Cena's five knuckle shuffle just as plausible as many others and many of his spots more plausible

Here's the difference. Flair laid down for potential world champions AND for established world champions. John doesn't drop a belt to someone unless there's a fluke, or unless they've already earned their stripes as world champions. John always overcomes, which shows that in spite of his opponent's abilities they didn't have the chops to hang with the big boys.

They're two different characters. Cena's a beast, to book Flair like cena would've been dumb and imo the same could be said the other way around. You're right but Cena does put over people in the course of matches imo.

And my point is that Ron Garvin didn't benefit by beating Flair. He became a victim of abusive booking and few people recognize his name as that of a World Champion. Cena didn't put Umaga over as a monster, Umaga put Umaga over as a monster. Umaga had a role to play as did Cena, it was mandated that Umaga get some high spots where he flattens Cena. Ryback was already the guy who could destroy two ordinary men in the time it takes to tie your shoe, he was already the guy that nobody had come close to legitimately beating. Looking that way during the match was everyone's job, John Cena didn't give him his gimmick.

Again, Umaga was a victim like Garvin was doesn't mean that flair didn't put him over. That was my point actually. Flair did the same thing with Windham imo. Windham never beat Flair but he looked like a champion when he faced flair. Ryback and Umaga looked like monsters against Cena.

The difference is that you're using two examples that I didn't even bring up. If you really want to split hairs you'll very easily find a way to compare Flair to John Cena, and for the record your examples are spot on and speak well of you.

The argument was based on the idea that Flair is a poor example of someone who put over more people than John Cena, the points I made involved people who I saw as finding their fame because of their work with Ric Flair. I admit that I brought up Garvin and he was a bad example.

I should've worded my answers differently and separated my post better from slys. That said I think that most of the people who face Cena are given a bigger spot, and those matches make for career highlights and most of the time it's one of the best matches of their careers. Placing them at a new level. Now whether those guys are booked like Sting or Garvin isn't on the guy who put them over but on the booking.

Then don't insult Ric Flair on behalf of making him seem like he's less of a legend than John Cena.

That wasn't my intent.

Here's the difference. Ric Flair would have never made an opponent look as invincible as John Cena because that would have been irresponsible story telling. Ric Flair had to maintain a reputation as someone who could get the job done, and he would prove as much of his opponents if it made sense.

Cena is a beast beating him clean is rare and unusual, but when it happens it's special. Beating him at all is special. He puts people over in the course of the match imo.

Then you were wrong to suggest that Flair didn't contribute by giving a performer with potential the reputation he needed to make the leap.

Again it was more my wording was bad and I wasn't saying things in the proper context like I said. Flair was great at what he did, and putting people over but Cena is good as well.

Pardon me for interpreting sarcasm, but you said that you agree with me on the notion that Bret Hart winning the belt at a house show was more significant than Bret Hart winning the belt on tv. I never suggested this and I demonstrated in my response that I think that's absolutely not true. I wasn't yelling like a moron, I was responding to an idiot and sometimes you have to raise your voice with them.

No what I said was that I agree and I THOUGHT that it was more important that he won it off camera. That's my opinion.

Determine for yourself if for all you claim Cena's done for those guys, you took them more seriously for it.

I've given Cena credit on plenty of occasions and just for the record I'll give him some credit now.

John Cena is a GOOD role model for children.

John Cena is a great guy for his Make A Wish contributions.

John Cena is GOOD on the mic. He's not a good rapper, but he delivers promos on par with what I expect of someone at the top.

John Cena belongs on the show. He's a significant part of the continuity and it wouldn't feel the same without him.

John Cena deserves to be recognized as a Hall of Famer after he leaves. For better or worse, I'm a wrestling fan today and the business made more money thanks to him.

John Cena is a BETTER wrestler than most. I fucking hate his style and his moves, I've made no bones about that. How he performs as a wrestler is beyond the effect his gimmick has on me, the man has impressed me more than once by calling interesting spots on the fly. If the crowd is jeering the shit out of him, he lets that translate into the pace of the match in a good way.

I don't give him credit for making Punk look like a legitimate world champion or for making Umaga look like a monster because I believe that they were already of that status before their encounters with John Cena.

I disagree, In Punks case Punk was made to look like a joke every other time he was in the ring with big boys before Cena, In Umaga's case he was more of a monster after that night and leaving Cena barely able to walk and just surviving the match than before.

 

[nWoForever1138]

I personally Cena is a great wrestler. He has the look, the larger-than-life personality, the ability to be carried to a great match with the right opponent, and the promo skills.