Gamers unite -HQ

[.]

DRM is such a broad term. What exactly would Microsoft be using DRM to do?

Make more money at the expense of the consumer with a product where DRM isn't necessary. Limiting the lending of games makes more people have to buy it.
EDIT: Better yet:

I do think that there is a chance that both Sony and Microsoft in catering too much to more hardcore gamers and their own pockets will undermine some of their more casual fans.

Enough to make a real difference? I do not think so

However, the negative reaction to the XBox One and PS4 (and how both companies seem to focus on just each other) should definitely encourage Nintendo to stick to the niche that the Wii carved for them, while at the same time reaching out to other game companies to get their games ported to the Wii U, such as they have done with Arkham City, Assassin's Creed III, Darksiders etc. That way they could actually present themselves as a viable alternative to those annoyed by the insularity of Sony and Microsoft.

There's not half as much negative press about PS4(yet) then there is with the xbox. The only negative thing is the whole social media presence which is more a case of if you don't like it then don't use it rather than a mandatory internet connection. That alone makes PS4 miles better than Xbox one in my eyes. However as i already said Xbox has set an extremely bad precedent that PS4 could potentially follow.

 

[The Butcher]

However as i already said Xbox has set an extremely bad precedent that PS4 could potentially follow.

I doubt it's even a follow the leader thing. It's been said by folks all around the world, and I believe it-- Microsoft is likely comfortable confirming all of this stuff because they know that the PS4 has the same Draconian security measures. Probably the same reason that Sony has been so vague. To quote a tweet I read on IGN from Kris Piotrowski: "When the dust settles, I will be really surprised if there is any real difference between the PS4 and Xbox One."

 

[Shotaro]

Frankly I'd be amazed if the PS4 didn't have all the same as the 360. The DRM on the Xbox One is pretty mild if we're being honest about it and it's more a case of looking at Steam's business model than Sony's. In fact Steam's DRM is if anything already harsher since games are not tied to a console and an account but just to an account. Which steam can and have deactivated for users. You lose your account and everything in your steam library is lost, the only way to get it back is to re-purchase.

At least with the Xbox you have both and if you get banned from XBL you don't lose your games. Also as someone who is against used games anyway except in certain circumstances this particular move will serve to make the games industry more profitable, something it in all honesty badly needs. Only the biggest publishers can guarantee a profit year on year and even the biggest companies have gone busy in recent years (look at THQ as a prime example)

 

[FlexAmerican Dynamite]

[YOUTUBE]ryB-hdtpQRw[/YOUTUBE]

 

[.]

Frankly I'd be amazed if the PS4 didn't have all the same as the 360. The DRM on the Xbox One is pretty mild if we're being honest about it and it's more a case of looking at Steam's business model than Sony's. In fact Steam's DRM is if anything already harsher since games are not tied to a console and an account but just to an account. Which steam can and have deactivated for users. You lose your account and everything in your steam library is lost, the only way to get it back is to re-purchase.

At least with the Xbox you have both and if you get banned from XBL you don't lose your games. Also as someone who is against used games anyway except in certain circumstances this particular move will serve to make the games industry more profitable, something it in all honesty badly needs. Only the biggest publishers can guarantee a profit year on year and even the biggest companies have gone busy in recent years (look at THQ as a prime example)

Making the industry more profitable is a good idea but it shouldn't happen at the expense of the consumer as what's being suggested with the used games(Which would totally eliminate the option of private selling which is ridiculous), the DRM is pretty minor in terms of 24 hours but once every hour for non-home console? That's pretty fucking bad, especially for places with bad internet.

And places like Steam and Origin is probably the biggest reason why i try and stay away from PC gaming nowadays.

 

[Shotaro]

Making the industry more profitable is a good idea but it shouldn't happen at the expense of the consumer as what's being suggested with the used games(Which would totally eliminate the option of private selling which is ridiculous), the DRM is pretty minor in terms of 24 hours but once every hour for non-home console? That's pretty fucking bad, especially for places with bad internet.

And places like Steam and Origin is probably the biggest reason why i try and stay away from PC gaming nowadays.

What has once per hour DRM?

Also I think you're missing the point, the gaming industry has two main problems right now, piracy and game stores themselves

Piracy is a huge problem, don't believe me? Look at what happened with Game Dev Tycoon, they released a game that was DRM free and simultaneously uploaded a cracked version to torrent sites, within 24 hours the ratio of pirated games to genuine was around 9:1. In fact the game was starting to get bad press because in the 'cracked' version it became impossible to make money because of game piracy. Several posters on the official forums were asking if they could put DRM in the game so that they could win.

As for games stores their business model is almost entirely predicated on profiting from used games sales and yet they've dominated the market for selling games for a long ass time, to the point where they have deals with most publishers for exclusive content and price blocking for online only retailers with less overheads. The whole DRM thing will mean a guy selling his games privately gets about the same as he would selling it to a store and then it's likely that game will have to deal with the licence fee. That's based on some speculation I've heard at least. If its true then someone in Microsoft's PR department needs to be fired. For private sellers instead of paying $40 to a guy selling a used copy of Skyrim for instance, they'll pay $5 to the guy and $35 to Microsoft and Bethesda, I fail to see how it's bad for the industry, nor how anyone could really be opposed to the idea of giving money to the guys who made the game in the first place.

DRM isn't going away and frankly pinging a server once every 24 hours is far less intrusive and obstructive than a need for permanent connectivity especially since for the majority of their target market broadband is pretty much an essential of everyday life.

It's not like 1/3 of the population of the planet is connected to the Internet or anything, oh wait, holy shit they are!

 

[One Punch Doug Crashin]

What Microsoft is doing is not only damaging their reputation with hardcore gamers, but they're alienating the casual gamers as well. Who wants to spend what's probably gonna be 400-500 bucks on a console with 24hr drm and that you can't give to your friends who also have an xbox. Whoever is heading the Xbox team is severely out of touch and only wants to profit.

 

[M]

As for games stores their business model is almost entirely predicated on profiting from used games sales and yet they've dominated the market for selling games for a long ass time, to the point where they have deals with most publishers for exclusive content and price blocking for online only retailers with less overheads. The whole DRM thing will mean a guy selling his games privately gets about the same as he would selling it to a store and then it's likely that game will have to deal with the licence fee. That's based on some speculation I've heard at least. If its true then someone in Microsoft's PR department needs to be fired. For private sellers instead of paying $40 to a guy selling a used copy of Skyrim for instance, they'll pay $5 to the guy and $35 to Microsoft and Bethesda, I fail to see how it's bad for the industry, nor how anyone could really be opposed to the idea of giving money to the guys who made the game in the first place.

Do you know why game retailers base their business model around used games? It's not because they're greedy it's because they have to or their profit margins would be razor thin. For example; in Australia games sell for around $90 (around $91-$92 in US) but the money made per game from the biggest retailer in Australia is only $2-$3 due to the massive cut that the publishers demand for permission to sell their games. That's not even considering staff salary!
(I got this from a manager at the biggest EB games in my city)

Watch this Jimquisition, he explains it better http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7370-When-The-Starscreams-Kill-Used-Games

if you don't want to watch the video, at least read the top comment: "Used games ARE killing the games industry. Just look at how used car sales ruined the car manufacturers and now there are no more cars. Or how no books have been written since the invention of the library."

 

[Shotaro]

Do you know why game retailers base their business model around used games? It's not because they're greedy it's because they have to or their profit margins would be razor thin. For example; in Australia games sell for around $90 (around $91-$92 in US) but the money made per game from the biggest retailer in Australia is only $2-$3 due to the massive cut that the publishers demand for permission to sell their games. That's not even considering staff salary!
(I got this from a manager at the biggest EB games in my city)

Watch this Jimquisition, he explains it better http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7370-When-The-Starscreams-Kill-Used-Games

if you don't want to watch the video, at least read the top comment: "Used games ARE killing the games industry. Just look at how used car sales ruined the car manufacturers and now there are no more cars. Or how no books have been written since the invention of the library."

Apples to Oranges comparison, the cost of making a car is less than the cost of selling a car in most cases (and when that isn't the case it's typically a luxury car made my a luxury manufacturer that is owned by a larger, more profitable company - such as Volkswagen and Bugatti)

Books similarly do not have budgets that would make Film producers blush. Game development runs into the tens and even hundreds of millions regularly. Also at least in the UK games haven't been sold at their RRP (typically about £60) for years. Primarily because the new games are a loss leader for the game stores, they make a razor thin margin on new games sales because they have a 2 or even 300% margin on used games, that's their stock and trade most of them only sell new games to give them used product to turn over.

If you're going to argue that used games aren't hurting the industry at least use businesses that are using the same fucking business model.

 

[One Punch Doug Crashin]

Apples to Oranges comparison, the cost of making a car is less than the cost of selling a car in most cases (and when that isn't the case it's typically a luxury car made my a luxury manufacturer that is owned by a larger, more profitable company - such as Volkswagen and Bugatti)

Books similarly do not have budgets that would make Film producers blush. Game development runs into the tens and even hundreds of millions regularly. Also at least in the UK games haven't been sold at their RRP (typically about £60) for years. Primarily because the new games are a loss leader for the game stores, they make a razor thin margin on new games sales because they have a 2 or even 300% margin on used games, that's their stock and trade most of them only sell new games to give them used product to turn over.

If you're going to argue that used games aren't hurting the industry at least use businesses that are using the same fucking business model.

So Screw independent game shops then right?

 

[Shotaro]

So Screw independent game shops then right?

My family ran an independent game shop from when the NES was still current until a few years after the PS2 released, at that time stores like Game and Electronics Boutique (in the UK) sold games at their RRP because they had no competition, we were able to do the same and had better customer service so we managed to keep up, the business gradually evolved into making home computers but ultimately we stopped selling games because we had to make a loss just to compete with the national chains of stores who were vastly undercutting the cost of new games to get more product in the market.

If the bigger chains hadn't switched to used games as their profit factories then I would probably be running one myself, as it stood we couldn't compete and it stopped being a part of the business.

 

[GI Cake]

So Screw independent game shops then right?

Now you understand Capitalism!

 

[M]

Game development runs into the tens and even hundreds of millions regularly. Also at least in the UK games haven't been sold at their RRP (typically about £60) for years. Primarily because the new games are a loss leader for the game stores, they make a razor thin margin on new games sales because they have a 2 or even 300% margin on used games, that's their stock and trade most of them only sell new games to give them used product to turn over.

The idea that the reason new games don't sell because they're all buying used games can only ever be half true (not sure if that's the right expression but meh). To be able to sell a used game there has to have been a new one sold, so if 100 people go out and buy a game, the maximum possible amount of used games sold is 100. Now, take away the quite large percentage (for this instance I'll use 75% even though it's probably higher) of people who happen to like the game and don't trade it in. There's 25 used games on the shelf, they haven't been sold yet. Roughly half of those will end up actually selling. That's not a lot of money made, but yes it is a lot more than they'll ever get from the 100 games initially sold. Now if Microsoft's planning to take another 95% cut on the little that's left, you can see the damage it would do to the company selling the games.

The selling below the RRP thing is nonexistent is Australia. Aliens: Colonial Marines is still selling for $80, games do go down in price, but only after a couple of years/the game's very unique, although I saw modern warfare 2 on sale for $75 which is outrageous. It's quite a horrible place to live if you're a hardcore gamer to be honest.

If you're going to argue that used games aren't hurting the industry at least use businesses that are using the same fucking business model.

I'm not going to lie i mainly used the top comment quote because i found it humorous, but it's good that you brought up business modelling. The biggest reason games fail to turn profits these days is because publishers spend way to much money trying to make games that appeal to everybody (see: re6) instead of focusing on making a quality game for it's own audience. Dark Souls for instance was a game that didn't have a huge budget but instead focused on what made the previous installment good and made it great. Because of this Dark Souls didn't have to sell the 6 million copies required to break even, and managed to become a huge monetary success while "only" selling 1.5 million copies.
That's why I believe it's not the used games business model that's hurting the publishers, it's the publisher's own crappy business modelling that's hurting them and they're just trying to blame it on retailers.

All this considered, I am a fan of the idea of using the online service as a means for people to directly sell games, that's a good idea.

 

[One Punch Doug Crashin]

My family ran an independent game shop from when the NES was still current until a few years after the PS2 released, at that time stores like Game and Electronics Boutique (in the UK) sold games at their RRP because they had no competition, we were able to do the same and had better customer service so we managed to keep up, the business gradually evolved into making home computers but ultimately we stopped selling games because we had to make a loss just to compete with the national chains of stores who were vastly undercutting the cost of new games to get more product in the market.

If the bigger chains hadn't switched to used games as their profit factories then I would probably be running one myself, as it stood we couldn't compete and it stopped being a part of the business.

So then you switch to Used Games with the larger companies. Look at Itsmyyard. He just started an independant gameshop in the UK. He seems to be doing well.

 

[Shotaro]

The idea that the reason new games don't sell because they're all buying used games can only ever be half true (not sure if that's the right expression but meh). To be able to sell a used game there has to have been a new one sold, so if 100 people go out and buy a game, the maximum possible amount of used games sold is 100. Now, take away the quite large percentage (for this instance I'll use 75% even though it's probably higher) of people who happen to like the game and don't trade it in. There's 25 used games on the shelf, they haven't been sold yet. Roughly half of those will end up actually selling. That's not a lot of money made, but yes it is a lot more than they'll ever get from the 100 games initially sold. Now if Microsoft's planning to take another 95% cut on the little that's left, you can see the damage it would do to the company selling the games.

I would wager that Microsoft's Publishing fees are a flat cost or a small % of the title cost and that a good amount of the money would go to the developer. I firmly believe that if you're going to buy a game the money should go to the developer, too many game companies have folded in recent years and some of them after quite successful titles. I'm not saying used games are the root cause, but they certainly contribute.

The games industry needs a wake up call and this generation has given it to them - I would expect to see the way game development is handled change a lot in the coming years.

The selling below the RRP thing is nonexistent is Australia. Aliens: Colonial Marines is still selling for $80, games do go down in price, but only after a couple of years/the game's very unique, although I saw modern warfare 2 on sale for $75 which is outrageous. It's quite a horrible place to live if you're a hardcore gamer to be honest.

An island in the middle of the ocean with a tiny population density and half the population of the UK? Frankly I'm amazed games are so cheap to begin with, especially when you factor in Australia's damn near punitive import laws and taxes. If your island were populated enough to justify a manufacturing facility or two for the industry then it would see games come down significantly. Sad as it is, it's not the game publisher's fault - it requires a real discussion about the way in which Australia does business on a global scale before you'll see prices go down.

I'm not going to lie i mainly used the top comment quote because i found it humorous, but it's good that you brought up business modelling. The biggest reason games fail to turn profits these days is because publishers spend way to much money trying to make games that appeal to everybody (see: re6) instead of focusing on making a quality game for it's own audience. Dark Souls for instance was a game that didn't have a huge budget but instead focused on what made the previous installment good and made it great. Because of this Dark Souls didn't have to sell the 6 million copies required to break even, and managed to become a huge monetary success while "only" selling 1.5 million copies.

The games industry is mass market, niche games can run on a smaller budget and still break even relatively easily (Demon's Souls had quadrupled Atlus' top projections by April 2010) a runaway success like that comes so rarely that it's success in itself was a relatively big story. It's also one of the few games by Atlus that has thrived in the Western market.

If you treated and marketed it as a AAA game then it would have been a huge loss for the company and would have been a story for the opposite reason.

Also game development is a hellishly expensive business, fighting game Skull Girls asked for $150,000 through crowd-funding to add a character to their game. This is how it broke down.

$48,000: Staff Salaries - 8 people for 10 weeks
$30,000: Animation and Clean-up Contracting
$4,000: Voice recording
$2,000: Hit-box Contracting
$5,000: Audio Implementation Contracting
$20,000: QA Testing
$10,000: 1st Party Certification
$10,500: IndieGoGo and Payment Processing Fees
$20,500: Manufacturing and Shipping Physical Rewards

Bare in mind that the developers are based in Los Angeles, $600 a week is not much there at all. Skull Girls is also a small indie game. Imagine a game like Hitman: Absolution or Tomb Raider selling 3.5 million units and you can easily see how that number may not necessarily turn the game profitable.

That's why I believe it's not the used games business model that's hurting the publishers, it's the publisher's own crappy business modelling that's hurting them and they're just trying to blame it on retailers.

I agree, business models other than buy disc, play game need to be explored. It's just not that simple though even stuff like DLC is seen as money-grabbing in some cases when it's often the way the publisher can turn even a successful game into a profitable one.

All this considered, I am a fan of the idea of using the online service as a means for people to directly sell games, that's a good idea.

That I can get behind. Personally it's not for me, I've never bought a used game and it's unlikely I ever will (primarily because I'm trying to make reviewing them and writing about them my job). I do realize that for some people it's a necessary evil though.

 

[Shotaro]

So then you switch to Used Games with the larger companies. Look at Itsmyyard. He just started an independant gameshop in the UK. He seems to be doing well.

a) the guy himself has brand recognition and he's probably based in a big city (in fairness I have no fucking clue who he is though) - go ask a guy who runs a comic book shop who isn't Kevin Smith how business is.

b) Why would we? In the early days of the home computer in the late 90's we made more than enough money to get by and a hell of a lot more than we would've made selling used games, especially since we'd likely have needed to offer more and charge less plus we were not well placed to do so, second hand stores do not do well in relatively affluent suburbs compared to those in a town center. Hell the business got wound up a few years ago when my ma retired and some of our bigger customers still call my ma when they have a computer problem.

 

[M]

I would wager that Microsoft's Publishing fees are a flat cost or a small % of the title cost and that a good amount of the money would go to the developer. I firmly believe that if you're going to buy a game the money should go to the developer, too many game companies have folded in recent years and some of them after quite successful titles. I'm not saying used games are the root cause, but they certainly contribute.

I know you're not trying to say they're the root cause, but what I'm trying to say is that their impact is not nearly enough to justify trying to kill them.

An island in the middle of the ocean with a tiny population density and half the population of the UK? Frankly I'm amazed games are so cheap to begin with, especially when you factor in Australia's damn near punitive import laws and taxes. If your island were populated enough to justify a manufacturing facility or two for the industry then it would see games come down significantly. Sad as it is, it's not the game publisher's fault - it requires a real discussion about the way in which Australia does business on a global scale before you'll see prices go down.

It's not our fault we're mostly desert.....
are the manufacturing facilities still in southeast asia? If they are then we're a lot closer than everybody else.. stupid tax..
BUT! What about the online market down under? We've got a stronger dollar than the US and online is tax and manufacture free, yet somehow it costs MORE to download a game online, AND their price never goes down!
I'm going to stop bringing up Australia's prices now, they're making me too sad..

The games industry is mass market, niche games can run on a smaller budget and still break even relatively easily (Demon's Souls had quadrupled Atlus' top projections by April 2010) a runaway success like that comes so rarely that it's success in itself was a relatively big story. It's also one of the few games by Atlus that has thrived in the Western market.

If you treated and marketed it as a AAA game then it would have been a huge loss for the company and would have been a story for the opposite reason.

This is why you don't try and make every game a AAA title, if publishers stopped putting so much pressure on their developers to produce call of duty like sales figures there would be a lot more games like dark souls that are promoted for their niche, fit that niche to a tee and make profits off of them as a result.

I agree, business models other than buy disc, play game need to be explored. It's just not that simple though even stuff like DLC is seen as money-grabbing in some cases when it's often the way the publisher can turn even a successful game into a profitable one.

I think you'd see much bigger profits if they just stopped overcharging on the online stores. That'd actually be quite a good response to used games, by charging discounted prices for games that don't have the stigma of being used you'd see more people buying the game online, and because there's no retailer to trade in the online game to, there'd be lower used game sales. It's good old fashioned competition.

That I can get behind. Personally it's not for me, I've never bought a used game and it's unlikely I ever will (primarily because I'm trying to make reviewing them and writing about them my job). I do realize that for some people it's a necessary evil though.

who do you write for? I might check it out.
I've bought used games before but only when I can't find the new version or if it's something ridiculous like call of duty or assassins creed which retail for upwards of $100

 

[One Punch Doug Crashin]

a) the guy himself has brand recognition and he's probably based in a big city (in fairness I have no fucking clue who he is though) - go ask a guy who runs a comic book shop who isn't Kevin Smith how business is.

b) Why would we? In the early days of the home computer in the late 90's we made more than enough money to get by and a hell of a lot more than we would've made selling used games, especially since we'd likely have needed to offer more and charge less plus we were not well placed to do so, second hand stores do not do well in relatively affluent suburbs compared to those in a town center. Hell the business got wound up a few years ago when my ma retired and some of our bigger customers still call my ma when they have a computer problem.

Comic Book Stores are a totally different animal man. and Itsmyyard works with Machinima. has a youtube channel that does wrestling video game news and lets plays. now does live streams in his shop. Lives in Scotland btw.

 

[Ty Burna]

$499 starting price for the Xbox One.

Yep I'll wait. I'm curious to see how much the PS4 will cost.

 

[Lee]

£429 in the UK!

 

[Stormtrooper]

$499 is ridiculous. Only rich folk are gonna spend that much for a new console (that's really just an incremental change from it's predecessor).

If Sony matches that, Nintendo is gonna "win" E3 by default.

 

[Lee]

Wait Killer Instinct was announced and they're not having Rare develop it? What the fuck?

 

[FlexAmerican Dynamite]

Mirrors Edge 2 and a new Star Wars Battlefront sound interesting.

 

[The Butcher]

Fo' hundred ninety-nine dollas!? Good lawd, that's alotta money!

You know, I kinda wish someone at Sega would look at what's going on and say, "Let's give it one more try. Let's make the gaming console people want. No frills, just good graphics, a solid online component, and a developer friendly chipset." Then price that sucker at $299 with a controller and a launch game included. I'd buy it just to spite Microsoft.

 

[M]

Damn that's way too much!
They're probably going to advertise it as a bundle with the kinect to sucker people into buying it too. I'm glad I've stocked up on current games lately so I'm not as tempted to buy one at launch..