Fury's Got Issues: #2, Abortion

[Furyof5]

I said I wasn't going to get involved in this thread, but there's way too much idiocy going on. First, I'd just like to go to our beloved dictionary to clarify a few things.

1. Murder.
Oxford Dictionary tells me that the definition of murder is 'the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another'. Thus, abortion is not murder. Shall we go through this slowly? Murder is a legal concept, nothing more. If legally, the termination of a foetus is not classed as 'murder' then it is not murder. Argue it's killing if you really want to, but calling abortion murder is something I can easily prove you wrong about, without bringing any personal views into consideration.

Abortion is not murder.

2. Baby.
Oxford dictionary gives a few definitions of 'baby'. 1 a very young child. 2 informal a lover or spouse (often as a form of address). As a foetus is neither a very young child, or a lover or spouse, I can objectively tell you you're wrong calling a foetus a child, again, without bringing any personal views into this.

A foetus is not a baby.

Semantics, being used to justify baby killing since 1922...

Now that we've clarified terminology, there's also a lot of naivety going on.

Please enlighten us mam, I sure am mighty happy to be havin an intelligent woman like you to tell me how I have gone wrong!

The first being that some of you seriously believe making abortion illegal, will make abortion stop.

Who thinks this? I dont. Murder and all other sorts of crrimes dont get stopped with laws, Laws are there to prosecute those whom commit these crimes.

It's lovely to think of it that way, isn't it? It's out of your view so you don't have to think about it. But in reality, thousands - maybe millions, of women will simply gain an abortion illegally.

Yep, just like 50 serial killers are active in the USA right now.

We can of course argue that anything that happens to them is their own fault, I've heard many people use that argument - but it's not really the point, is it?

Referring to what exactly? Aborting their own children or the issues that may come from these abortions? In either case it most certainly is their own faults. They didnt HAVE to get them, they chose to out of selfish reasons.

I mean, if you're pro-life, all you're condoning is the loss of the women as well as the foetus. And I'm not quite sure how 2 lives being lost is better than none works into your argument for abortion being illegal.

Killing your innocent child in the womb is not justifiable even if you save your own life. Also this is an EXTREMELY rare case. People on your side always use this bs excuse, and it simply doesnt work in reality as its so rare.

Next, I really can not believe Fury just used the argument 'The foetus could have changed the world'. Sure, it could have been in a good way, but it also could be in a horrible way.

In either case killing them in the womb before they had a chance to is not justifiable. I love your continued usage of the word "foetus", Im sure you wont mind if a man attacks you and kills your "foetus" in the womb when youre pregant, not like its alive or has any right to live anyway. Oh you would? Sounds hypocritical to me.

What 'could happen' should never be used in a argument such as this, because we just don't know.

We "just dont know" a lot of things, doesnt make killing on a massive scale acceptable. Also the pendulum swings both ways in this example, we just dont know if the kid will become a doctor whom invents an immortality serum, oh well... wheres my hanger...

Finally, I love that people who believe abortion should be illegal ALWAYS use the 'the vast majority of abortions have no rape component' argument. Again, it's lovely to sweep things under the carpet isn't it?

I wont use that argument, because it doesnt matter. I dont care if a woman is raped or not, killing of their child is not justifiable. Two wrongs dont make a right.

If you don't see it or hear about it, it doesn't happen, right? In reality, rape happens, is life-changing, and sometimes, abortion may be deemed necessary by the victim of that.

You think I care? Everyone has some sort of sob story. Yes, its unfortunate that they were raped, is it the baby's fault? Nope. Lets murder him because they got fucked up in the head. I have known rape victims for your information, I know EXACTLY what happens. Guess what? It doesnt justify killing of their unborn child. If they dont want him then they can give him up for adoption or call child services. Simple as that.

You can tell me it's a small minority - I don't believe it's the majority of cases, but there are NO realistic statistics on this, and regardless of if the number was 0.0001% or 99.999%, it should be legal, because there is no way civilised societies should be allowed to force a woman to keep a child due to rape.

Except for the fact that the act of killing an unborn child is MUCH WORSE than rape? Whether you believe it to be a child,human, or a doorstop it is still a living being, its an innocent living being, and in any case the mother kills it when getting an abortion.

Some people justified murders of other races or even political opponents in other nations by claiming they were subhuman or not human at all, or simply didnt have the same rights.

Every civilization at some point or time has their "undesirables". National Socialist Germany has Jews and other parties. Stalin had the Ukranians and other nations, Mao had his own people. Every time it simply gets switched to a new people, in this case its infants in the womb. They are undisired by their mothers, or even by governments(China for instance) and organizations (Planned Parenthood with Blacks) and they must be eliminated.

Semantics give way to this. This is why they teach you people they are not alive or babies, because they dont want to endorse "Baby killing". They have their own science to confirm it as well, just as the Nazi's did with the jews; but they are already biased. They operate under the presupposition that the baby is just a block of wood anyway, and thus they will interpret the results that way no matter what they get. I just feel sad to live in a world like this, and that people like you truly feel this way about issues such as this.

 

[Furyof5]

Im sure everyone is having a time making utter morons of themselves in this thread, but ill go ahead and break this down, in a much less elaborate way than Becca did.

Of course they are, cause its not like you support violating sovereign countries by invading them when we feel like it do you? Nope, we're the morons.

Has to be legal. If it isnt, it will continue to happen with simular frequency, but with much, MUCH less humane means and results.

The laws are to prosecute those whom do the acts. No matter what laws we have people break them, for this they are punished. Should in this case we have Anarchy?

Hey, I love finding an 8 month old fetus in the dumpster as much as anyone, but that shit cant happen.

Funny, it still does even with it being legal.

The legality of it is nothing to dispute, and you look stupid to do so.

Yep, we're stupid for having a conflicting opinion. You sure are better than the rest of us...

 

[Xemmy]

its no ones fault.. Was it NASA's fault it couldn't save the astronauts from being incinerated in the Challenger? WTF..What you stated simply happens and your way out of context.. Your way off buddy. How would a woman aware that a fertilized egg might be getting washed out soon even attempt to stop it?

Not that it really has anything to do with the subject, but some would argue that it was partially Nasa's fault. Way out of context? My point is- if aborting fertilized eggs is murder, and 60 to 80 percent are killed before they can reach the uterus, then that woman just commited accidental murder. That's all. It's not her fault, I'm just looking for some consistency here.

how is your stance going to be based on what is and isn't born when your stance also allows one the privilege of determining if something that will be born shall be born at all? Your playing Sheriff and lawmaker at once which is wrong.

Why? Playing Sheriff and Lawmaker is only wrong when their meaning is literal.

My great-grandfather had none of those things except 1 by 1997... But what the life of a lone wolf is less then the people guy? Because the loner is anti social or to himself you say? Plenty of people and most elderly people are loners and recluses.. Why should i need to be loved by the likes of you to keep my dementia eaten brained, wobble legged, depressed hopeless ass off the chopping block?

Ignore any current laws when reading this. Say, that the brain dead had the option of being put up for execution. It will help understand my psyche on this subject. I'm assuming you're talking about The "loved one" rule on my list. It isn't for the benefit of the being, but for the loved ones themselves. If I was brain-dead. I wouldn't give a damn if you put my head on the chopping block. If I was senial to the point of not being aware of the world around me, then by all means kill me. It wouldn't matter to me at all. However, it might matter to my family. As far as I'm concerned that decision would be up to them. They wouldn't. Only for the rememberance of the person I once was.

thats like saying theres a difference in dunking someone's head under the water and simply closing the top of the pool to prevent them from getting out..

1. Your argument here appeals to the emotion. Not logic.
2. A more proper example of the situation would be the pool being life. When the person is born, they've jumped in the water. Drowning someone is murder.

what would even make it not worthwhile...?and what of those who are unhappy and have truly lived too long...?

I wouldn't want to be born into this world with only 5 years to live. I wouldn't want to be born unable to function correctly in society.
And I feel sorry for those that are. However it's not my place to judge their fate. That's their's and their familys, so I don't know why you ask that second question. And that's my whole point anyways. Most of it is just how I would personally handle a situation. Doesn't make it my place.
I just say that it should be the woman's choice, and no others.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Of course they are, cause its not like you support violating sovereign countries by invading them when we feel like it do you? Nope, we're the morons.

Being honest, I didnt actually read the thread. You must have a guilty conscience

If those soverign countires gave us no reason to invade (save) them, then they may not get violated (built up, and helped)

The laws are to prosecute those whom do the acts. No matter what laws we have people break them, for this they are punished. Should in this case we have Anarchy?

Is it about saving babies, or is it about persecuting those who choose to do this? Are we really gonna say that someone who has gone to the point of having a surgical procedure to remove human life from this world, and themselves is going to decide not to, becuase its "illegal" ?? Please. Remember this conversation the next time you go over the speed limit.

Funny, it still does even with it being legal.

I got ten kids to feed, and do so with apples and oranges. Oranges are no longer available. Still gonna fill my ratio. Only with apples now, though.

Yep, we're stupid for having a conflicting opinion. You sure are better than the rest of us...

No, you are stupid for having a stupid opinion, and asking a stupid question.

 

[Xemmy]

Semantics, being used to justify baby killing since 1922...



Please enlighten us mam, I sure am mighty happy to be havin an intelligent woman like you to tell me how I have gone wrong!

Semantics. You use that a word alot as if it's an argument winner.
Your defintion of Murder isn't the same as others. Please understand that.

As for that second part.

YES PLEASE ENLIGHTEN HIM! I'm very happy to have an intelligent woman here to please talk some sense into him.

 

[El Rev sXe]

Killing your innocent child in the womb is not justifiable even if you save your own life. Also this is an EXTREMELY rare case. People on your side always use this bs excuse, and it simply doesnt work in reality as its so rare.

"AS IT'S SO RARE"?! ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? Okay, I'm sorry, I will calm down... Okay Fury, I don't know if you are american, english, australian or else... However, say that "it's rare" is completely false. Maybe you should've specified the title of your thread "Abortion should be legal IN X COUNTRY?" Because man, I can bet my head that here in South America, illegal abortions are really dangerous for the health, and I insist! physical and psychological, of the woman. It causes traumas, granted feeling guilty (but that's thank to people like you that labed them as "murderers"), serious infections than can degenerate into sexual transmitted diseases (sorry if it's the wrong term in english), it can change the woman's menstrual cycle ETC...
Now onto your "answer":

You think I care? Everyone has some sort of sob story. Yes, its unfortunate that they were raped, is it the baby's fault? Nope. Lets murder him because they got fucked up in the head. I have known rape victims for your information, I know EXACTLY what happens. Guess what? It doesnt justify killing of their unborn child. If they dont want him then they can give him up for adoption or call child services. Simple as that.

If you know "EXACTLY what happens" then how can you say that adoption is an "easy" choice?? It isn't as "simple as that". Since you know "exactly what happens" you should know that even if the woman is raped, the idea of letting go the baby is alot harder and painful. I bet you're thinking "but Rev, is the same concept as abortion. Why it would be harder or easier taking one or the other option?" Well, in the case of abortion, the woman has basically a 50-50 chance of feeling guilty or feeling waged, because the woman not NECESSARILLY develop an affection to the unborn. WHEREAS, if the child grows inside of her, the mother develops the maternal feeling; therefore making harder to abandon the child. Obviously there are exeptions that does it without thinking it for one sec.

Every civilization at some point or time has their "undesirables". National Socialist Germany has Jews and other parties. Stalin had the Ukranians and other nations, Mao had his own people. Every time it simply gets switched to a new people, in this case its infants in the womb. They are undisired by their mothers, or even by governments(China for instance) and organizations (Planned Parenthood with Blacks) and they must be eliminated.

Well, you are definitely american. How can you say that? Did you know that during dictatorships in the 80's in South America, many american militarys tortured pregnant women 'til the point they were basically forced to abort the baby? You don't believe me? Look for the name Domitila Chungara. Granted it's during a dictatorship, but it's a little bit hipocritical to say that only communist regimes have done that shit. Don't compare that way bro. I'm sorry I got off topic, but I don't like when people do these kind of comparaisons.

 

[One to Remember]

I said I wasn't going to get involved in this thread, but there's way too much idiocy going on

Thanks for putting it over the top

1. Murder.
Oxford Dictionary tells me that the definition of murder is 'the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another'. Thus, abortion is not murder. Shall we go through this slowly? Murder is a legal concept, nothing more. If legally, the termination of a foetus is not classed as 'murder' then it is not murder. Argue it's killing if you really want to, but calling abortion murder is something I can easily prove you wrong about, without bringing any personal views into consideration.

Yes it is a illegal but World War II showed us that all laws are not to be honored even retroactively and in historical context. Why were the Nazis and Imperial Japanese military brass charged with crimes against humanity and etc? Under the then LAWS of the Third Reich, those suffering from the pogroms in fact had no protections what so ever under the Nuremberg Laws.
Under East German law one could not leave the state legally without consent yet following reunification and promises of no reprisals GDR leadership faced prosecution. The Hague did not condemn his retro activity nor did it condemn the U.S. for deporting ex Nazis who did no violate law abiding emigrant statutes or any laws period. Obviously not all laws are lawful "in spirit"..
And there has already been one poster to misuse Godwin's Law, please don't be the second.

[/B]2. Baby.
Oxford dictionary gives a few definitions of 'baby'. 1 a very young child. 2 informal a lover or spouse (often as a form of address). As a foetus is neither a very young child, or a lover or spouse, I can objectively tell you you're wrong calling a foetus a child, again, without bringing any personal views into this.

a "baby" is not a type of life it is a stage/period of life..
If a fetus is not a life then an engine mounted to a chassis is not a car because it lacks an auto body... And its already been argued that all thats separating a fetus from a baby is a birth. but how can that be if we can pull it out before its close to its birth and its still able to live then where does that leave your logic? And why is late term abortion illegal if there's no real difference..?

[/B]Now that we've clarified terminology, there's also a lot of naivety going on. The first being that some of you seriously believe making abortion illegal, will make abortion stop. It's lovely to think of it that way, isn't it? It's out of your view so you don't have to think about it. But in reality, thousands - maybe millions, of women will simply gain an abortion illegally.

I don't think law enforcement will give up as easily as they did on prohibition. Even the best efforts from law enforcement who are on scene do not stop fatalities. Your throwing up a percentage of acts that simply can't be stopped. If they die from the botched abortion it doesn't effect me because nothing could had been done to stop here when shes off and about and she would have depending on state faced 1st degree murder charges anyway. She killed herself, in my state it would had took probably 600 grand to charge, convict, house, then give her a needle anyways. And I am sure with it being illegal and the Stop Snitching campaigners having no views on abortion that there would be plenty of eyes to watch her anyways. I don't think there would be stigma for someone turning someone in for illegal abortions I thinkit would be a deterrent.

can of course argue that anything that happens to them is their own fault, I've heard many people use that argument - but it's not really the point, is it? I mean, if you're pro-life, all you're condoning is the loss of the women as well as the foetus. And I'm not quite sure how 2 lives being lost is better than none works into your argument for abortion being illegal.

maybe if those are the limitations of being pro life one should jump ship to the anti-abortion or pro-fair fight parties.. If she looses her life to a back alley abortion she would be 1 of many to lose their lives to hardheadedness. If there was a legitimate attempt to save the fetus and those attempts came up short then the life of the fetus was not at too great a cost because you can't when them all.
I am actually attempted to quote the Special Olympics motto but the irony would be overwhelming..

Next, I really can not believe Fury just used the argument 'The foetus could have changed the world'. Sure, it could have been in a good way, but it also could be in a horrible way. What 'could happen' should never be used in a argument such as this, because we just don't know.

I don't think those are grounds to make choices. We can't reincarnate a man after flattening his time just because his actions in prison indicate hes learned nothing..

Finally, I love that people who believe abortion should be illegal ALWAYS use the 'the vast majority of abortions have no rape component' argument.

The issue was defenders of abortion using it. Its a bad debate tactic and an attempt to muddy water. Not only do we not care if there is a rape component but we are also offended at the jacking of victimhood by those who have not experienced sexual assault nor have a pregnancy resulting from it.

Again, it's lovely to sweep things under the carpet isn't it? If you don't see it or hear about it, it doesn't happen, right? In reality, rape happens, is life-changing, and sometimes, abortion may be deemed necessary by the victim of that. You can tell me it's a small minority - I don't believe it's the majority of cases, but there are NO realistic statistics on this, and regardless of if the number was 0.0001% or 99.999%, it should be legal, because there is no way civilised societies should be allowed to force a woman to keep a child due to rape.

Sweeping it under the rug is when a cop says to a girl at his desk "are you sure you didn't like the guy" or asking the girl mid-story "so uh what were you wearing just out of curiosity?"

I am not going to argue you with you on how off statistics are, I know girls, I know victims period, I know cops.. They don't report alot of whats dne to them and they complicated law enforcement efforts to help them help themselves. I am not going to argue with you over why that is either.

Her option in a civilized society is to assist the prosecutor in court and to have the comfort of knowing no one approves of such acts and the law will take her seriously.

The kid can't be punished just like I can't be jailed for having a dad who stabbed somebody and a great grandfather who hit his wife so hard he made her deaf. And I could care less if I look just like both of 'em..

 

[One to Remember]

The legality of it is nothing to dispute, and you look stupid to do so.

I feel like with the way the Supreme Court is right now its not silly to assume the case might be overturned. It is legal but the viability of it being overturned is enough to warrant any one going as hard as they have in this thread at this moment IN TIME.

Please enlighten us mam, I sure am mighty happy to be havin an intelligent woman like you to tell me how I have gone wrong!

Who told you she was a female?

Of course they are, cause its not like you support violating sovereign countries by invading them when we feel like it do you? Nope, we're the morons.

*sigh* Which U.S. war are we referring to? I guess with everyone as riled us as they are we can fit that in this thread..

My point is- if aborting fertilized eggs is murder, and 60 to 80 percent are killed before they can reach the uterus, then that woman just commited accidental murder. That's all. It's not her fault, I'm just looking for some consistency here.

Theres no such a thing as accidental murder. Its an oxymoron. The closes thing resembling that offense is negligent homicide. Thats like me t-boning you because you ran a red light and still saying its my fault you can't walk because I hit your car even though you know with my way getting the green we were of course duhdaduh gonna start going.. And even if she was using that timing as a means of contraception even then there must be some method a sperm uses to get around her period I guess. Either way it needs to implant to get the prize. Can't give it the gold for stopping at the finish line just because its up there alone, and of course with no finish line at al no one gets the gold period. I don't view that as hypocrisy.

Better yet even that would be like charging a firefighter with arson because even after drenching a house for 3 hours the embers and hots spots no one could see ignite ten minutes after the fire trucks leave leading to a massive forest fire. Thats the closest thing to murdering someone who you were attempting to not murder at all..

Why? Playing Sheriff and Lawmaker is only wrong when their meaning is literal.

its a conflict of interest anyway you look at it.

If I was brain-dead. I wouldn't give a damn if you put my head on the chopping block. If I was senial to the point of not being aware of the world around me, then by all means kill me. It wouldn't matter to me at all. However, it might matter to my family. As far as I'm concerned that decision would be up to them.

What if they kept you alive just to sell your organs for profits and to manipulate insurance policies? What if the hospital just through you in the garbage and thugs came alone and did whatever to you? Sold your bone marrow for cents on the dollars... Based on your criteria for what constitutes life you wouldn't be afforded any protection and your family would have no recourse.

2. A more proper example of the situation would be the pool being life. When the person is born, they've jumped in the water. Drowning someone is murder.

A better example would be holding a baby's head under water vs giving birth to him in the deep end unexpectedly.

2. A more proper example of the situation would be the pool being life. When the person is born, they've jumped in the water. Drowning someone is murder.

When she asexually reproduces I think it will be her business.

Is it about saving babies, or is it about persecuting those who choose to do this? Are we really gonna say that someone who has gone to the point of having a surgical procedure to remove human life from this world, and themselves is going to decide not to, becuase its "illegal" ?? Please. Remember this conversation the next time you go over the speed limit.

This is a great example naïveté on your end. Do you know how different not just people in general but people each and everyone of us knows personally would be if we had no laws and no means of enforcement in this society?! Can you grasp as someone I assume is not a child that some of the things and actions we witness in society is merely apart of a façade. And with the penalty being execution they may in fact heed. I can't get life without or with parole or lethal injection for speeding you know.

Furthermore in regards to the speeding example the law would still have more glass half full results. If the individual who was blue lighted could point to me speeding in unison on dash cam footage and then use that to get his case thrown out then I would call that law a complete failure. In the realm of law you seek to avoid fruitless efforts not universal compliance because the former is realistic and the latter is pure insanity.

 

[Xemmy]

Theres no such a thing as accidental murder. Its an oxymoron. The closes thing resembling that offense is negligent homicide. Thats like me t-boning you because you ran a red light and still saying its my fault you can't walk because I hit your car even though you know with my way getting the green we were of course duhdaduh gonna start going.. And even if she was using that timing as a means of contraception even then there must be some method a sperm uses to get around her period I guess. Either way it needs to implant to get the prize. Can't give it the gold for stopping at the finish line just because its up there alone, and of course with no finish line at al no one gets the gold period. I don't view that as hypocrisy.

I'm not speaking Legal jargin at this point. Specifics don't matter in this case. The whole damn thing is just a biological process. Terminating it in it's early stages isn't murder. And when it winds up on a sanitary napkin it's not equivalent to someone getting hit in a car wreck. Because let's face it, do you honestly look at it as a tragedy if the 60% occurs. No. And yet it is a fertilized egg. Just like it is in the early half of the pregnancy. The only difference is the spot it's lached down at.

"If a fetus is a human being, how come the census doesn't count them? If a fetus is a human being, how come when there's a miscarriage they don't have a funeral? If a fetus is a human being, how come people say 'we have two children and one on the way' instead of saying 'we have three children?' People say life begins at conception, I say life began about a billion years ago and it's a continuous process. Continuous, just keeps rolling along. Rolling, rolling, rolling along." - Carlin

 

[One to Remember]

"If a fetus is a human being, how come the census doesn't count them?

they can't talk to the census worker..
If a fetus is a human being, how come when there's a miscarriage they don't have a funeral?

5 grand for something that fits in a shoe box?

If a fetus is a human being, how come people say 'we have two children and one on the way' instead of saying 'we have three children?'

Why does every guy on the Maury show say he has no children at all...?

 

[HBK-aholic]

Semantics,

If by semantics, you mean showing you that you're using the wrong terminology, then yes, it's semantics. Doesn't make the point less valid.

being used to justify baby killing since 1922...

Please refer back to lesson 2. A 'baby' is not being killed in abortion. A foetus is being terminated.

Please enlighten us mam, I sure am mighty happy to be havin an intelligent woman like you to tell me how I have gone wrong!

Oh I will.

Who thinks this? I dont. Murder and all other sorts of crrimes dont get stopped with laws, Laws are there to prosecute those whom commit these crimes.

Assuming, of course, that the woman gets to the stage of being prosecuted. Which, with some of the methods used in carrying out illegal abortions, is not a likelihood. But of course you don't care about the death of the woman, do you?

Referring to what exactly? Aborting their own children or the issues that may come from these abortions? In either case it most certainly is their own faults. They didnt HAVE to get them, they chose to out of selfish reasons.

Having an abortion isn't always selfish. Well, it is in your little world, where the only reason someone would have an abortion is they're a **** who didn't use protection and can't be bothered with a child.

Killing your innocent child in the womb is not justifiable even if you save your own life. Also this is an EXTREMELY rare case. People on your side always use this bs excuse, and it simply doesnt work in reality as its so rare.

Killing a child is murder. Aborting a foetus isn't. You can say it's semantics, but in reality you don't like the fact that I can demolish your ridiculous emotive-language filled arguments with the use of a simple quote from the dictionary. You can't decide what words mean, you know.

And rare? Why do you think 'coathanger' abortions are rare? Ah yes, ABORTION IS LEGAL.

In either case killing them in the womb before they had a chance to is not justifiable. I love your continued usage of the word "foetus", Im sure you wont mind if a man attacks you and kills your "foetus" in the womb when youre pregant, not like its alive or has any right to live anyway. Oh you would? Sounds hypocritical to me.

Stop assuming what I would and wouldn't feel. And stop assuming women who have abortions don't still have feelings for their child. Just because they believe that abortion is the only option available to them, it doesn't mean the foetus means nothing to them.

We "just dont know" a lot of things, doesnt make killing on a massive scale acceptable. Also the pendulum swings both ways in this example, we just dont know if the kid will become a doctor whom invents an immortality serum, oh well... wheres my hanger...

Seriously, stupidest argument ever. The foetus could have turned out to be great, could turn out to be a mass murderer. The issue is pointless, you'll never know and you shouldn't be forced to keep a pregnancy based on 'I don't know, but maybeeeeeeeee...'

I wont use that argument, because it doesnt matter. I dont care if a woman is raped or not, killing of their child is not justifiable. Two wrongs dont make a right.

It's wrong to rape and it's wrong to make a woman keep a pregnancy via rape. As you said, 2 wrongs don't make a right, but you're okay with that?

You think I care? Everyone has some sort of sob story. Yes, its unfortunate that they were raped, is it the baby's fault? Nope. Lets murder him because they got fucked up in the head. I have known rape victims for your information, I know EXACTLY what happens. Guess what? It doesnt justify killing of their unborn child. If they dont want him then they can give him up for adoption or call child services. Simple as that.

Oh you've KNOWN rape victims? Well then, you obviously know exactly what happens.


Is it the womans fault she was raped? Of course not, but as well as be forced into sex she's forced into a pregnancy she never had an option over? I have no idea how that sits right in your mind.

I love that adoption is always the option to people like you. Except if we look at the figures for abortion, then assume all those foetuses will have been born and placed into the adoption system, where are they all going? There are no where near enough resources for that type of thing.

Except for the fact that the act of killing an unborn child is MUCH WORSE than rape? Whether you believe it to be a child,human, or a doorstop it is still a living being, its an innocent living being, and in any case the mother kills it when getting an abortion.

Rape is so far ahead of abortion on the 'worst things you can do' list they can't even see each other.

Some people justified murders of other races or even political opponents in other nations by claiming they were subhuman or not human at all, or simply didnt have the same rights.

Sure, this is exactly the same thing as abortion

Every civilization at some point or time has their "undesirables". National Socialist Germany has Jews and other parties. Stalin had the Ukranians and other nations, Mao had his own people. Every time it simply gets switched to a new people, in this case its infants in the womb. They are undisired by their mothers, or even by governments(China for instance) and organizations (Planned Parenthood with Blacks) and they must be eliminated.

Choosing to have an abortion isn't some kind of war, you know. It's a personal decision you reach personally based on your own circumstances.

Semantics give way to this. This is why they teach you people they are not alive or babies, because they dont want to endorse "Baby killing". They have their own science to confirm it as well, just as the Nazi's did with the jews; but they are already biased. They operate under the presupposition that the baby is just a block of wood anyway, and thus they will interpret the results that way no matter what they get. I just feel sad to live in a world like this, and that people like you truly feel this way about issues such as this.

No, you use terms such as 'baby' to tug on the heartstrings of people. 'Oh noes, how can you let them kill babies?!' when in reality abortion is so much different. Don't attempt talking to me about semantics, you and your scum anti-choice movement do everything possible to use propaganda to get people to agree.

 

[The Doctor]

I'm not a fan of abortion.

HOWEVER, I think abortion should be legalized! It really doesn't matter whether you think it's baby-killing or not, the fact is, you shouldn't take away a woman's right to choose. You could compare this to prohibition. I'm sure a good number of us legally like to drink alcohol. Others choose not to let that stuff touch their lips. That's their choice, and it's not the government's job to prevent anyone from drinking if some statesmen don't like it, just like it's not their job to stop abortion based on moral views.

Don't like abortion? Don't get one.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Thanks for putting it over the top

It's not over the top, it's completely true.

Yes it is a illegal but World War II showed us that all laws are not to be honored even retroactively and in historical context. Why were the Nazis and Imperial Japanese military brass charged with crimes against humanity and etc? Under the then LAWS of the Third Reich, those suffering from the pogroms in fact had no protections what so ever under the Nuremberg Laws.
Under East German law one could not leave the state legally without consent yet following reunification and promises of no reprisals GDR leadership faced prosecution. The Hague did not condemn his retro activity nor did it condemn the U.S. for deporting ex Nazis who did no violate law abiding emigrant statutes or any laws period. Obviously not all laws are lawful "in spirit"..
And there has already been one poster to misuse Godwin's Law, please don't be the second.

Oh dear Lord and you wonder why people think you're such a terrible poster? What does this have to do with whether abortion should be legal?

a "baby" is not a type of life it is a stage/period of life..
If a fetus is not a life then an engine mounted to a chassis is not a car because it lacks an auto body... And its already been argued that all thats separating a fetus from a baby is a birth. but how can that be if we can pull it out before its close to its birth and its still able to live then where does that leave your logic? And why is late term abortion illegal if there's no real difference..?

The difference is when the foetus becomes viable. The difference is not solely birth, the difference is the stage of life where the foetus could live separately from the mother.

I don't think law enforcement will give up as easily as they did on prohibition. Even the best efforts from law enforcement who are on scene do not stop fatalities. Your throwing up a percentage of acts that simply can't be stopped. If they die from the botched abortion it doesn't effect me because nothing could had been done to stop here when shes off and about and she would have depending on state faced 1st degree murder charges anyway. She killed herself, in my state it would had took probably 600 grand to charge, convict, house, then give her a needle anyways. And I am sure with it being illegal and the Stop Snitching campaigners having no views on abortion that there would be plenty of eyes to watch her anyways. I don't think there would be stigma for someone turning someone in for illegal abortions I thinkit would be a deterrent.

So basically, you're not pro-life, you're anti-womens choices? This is what that whole paragraph says, and it's actually the worst thing I've ever read from someone who pretends to be pro-life. If you cared so much about human life, your response to 2 lives being lost would NOT be 'it doesn't affect me'.

maybe if those are the limitations of being pro life one should jump ship to the anti-abortion or pro-fair fight parties.. If she looses her life to a back alley abortion she would be 1 of many to lose their lives to hardheadedness. If there was a legitimate attempt to save the fetus and those attempts came up short then the life of the fetus was not at too great a cost because you can't when them all.
I am actually attempted to quote the Special Olympics motto but the irony would be overwhelming..
I don't think those are grounds to make choices. We can't reincarnate a man after flattening his time just because his actions in prison indicate hes learned nothing..

I don't even know what you're going on about. I think someone who was 'pro-life' could tear apart your arguments.

The issue was defenders of abortion using it. Its a bad debate tactic and an attempt to muddy water. Not only do we not care if there is a rape component but we are also offended at the jacking of victimhood by those who have not experienced sexual assault nor have a pregnancy resulting from it.

Have you ever been sexually assaulted and suffered a pregnancy because of it? No? I'd stop acting as if you have any idea of the reasons for abortion, then.

Sweeping it under the rug is when a cop says to a girl at his desk "are you sure you didn't like the guy" or asking the girl mid-story "so uh what were you wearing just out of curiosity?"

Sweeping it under the carpet is what 'pro-lifers' do when they act as if it's not an issue.

I am not going to argue you with you on how off statistics are, I know girls, I know victims period, I know cops.. They don't report alot of whats dne to them and they complicated law enforcement efforts to help them help themselves. I am not going to argue with you over why that is either.

Her option in a civilized society is to assist the prosecutor in court and to have the comfort of knowing no one approves of such acts and the law will take her seriously.

Don't get me started on what happens in court to rape victims, and how 'seriously' they're taken. With a 5% conviction rate, there's no arguing it.

The kid can't be punished just like I can't be jailed for having a dad who stabbed somebody and a great grandfather who hit his wife so hard he made her deaf. And I could care less if I look just like both of 'em..

But the woman can be punished, right?

 

[Xemmy]

5 grand for something that fits in a shoe box?


Why does every guy on the Maury show say he has no children at all...?

Because Everyguy on Maury doesn't want them. But the people that say THAT are usually married and halfway through the pregnancy.

Well if the fetus is just as important as a full grown baby, then I don't see why. I love that. 5 grand for something that fits in a shoe box. I LOVE THAT YOU SAID IT YOURSELF. THAT'S EXACTLY IT! Why would I pay for that as if it were my child? It's not my child, it's a terminated fetus.

Lol, forget cremation, forget any proper services, just put what ever that is in a shoe box and bury it somewhere. lol

Btw, good job answering the part of my post that was just a Comedy Show Quote. You know, instead of the part that had actual substance.

 

[One to Remember]

I'm not a fan of abortion.

"The Doctor?" More like the Quack..

HOWEVER, I think abortion should be legalized! It really doesn't matter whether you think it's baby-killing or not, the fact is, you shouldn't take away a woman's right to choose. You could compare this to prohibition. I'm sure a good number of us legally like to drink alcohol. Others choose not to let that stuff touch their lips. That's their choice, and it's not the government's job to prevent anyone from drinking if some statesmen don't like it, just like it's not their job to stop abortion based on moral views.

how do you figure its not the government's right to regulate or prohibit drinking? Did not the representatives to the then House and then Senate get for the most part (i only say "most" because Senators probably;y had been their for the long haul) voted in by the people? Yet as soon as the bootlegging began we saw no turn around in congress and obviously the house which elects every 2 years. Perhaps the uproar came from a vocal minority? Abortion can be based on moral views but does not necessarily need to be. Human rights, civil rights, etc are good defenses.

Don't like abortion? Don't get one.

that would be like telling a Kennedy "don't like assassinations? Don't seek the presidency!" or even closer to home telling the Central Park Jogger "Don't like gang rapes? Don't get raped by gangs.."

Oh dear Lord and you wonder why people think you're such a terrible poster? What does this have to do with whether abortion should be legal?

apparent you began to fall off and lose traction when the debate gets too academic.. The point was law or no law that does not mean a court down the line might not distributed accountability. The Nuremberg trials showed us that laws can be nullified retroactively, not recognized at all, or overruled on jurisdictional grounds. Following then-laws might not allow one to avoid prosecution. Not all laws or valid and the U.S. has demonstrated that its views on ex post facto acts is not iron clad.. You understand stand now boo boo? Good girl.

The difference is when the foetus becomes viable. The difference is not solely birth, the difference is the stage of life where the foetus could live separately from the mother.

There are a lot of people right now well established in life who have no viability of surviving on their own. They still have their rights, I can not encroach and they can not be eroded easily. You said you were pro-choice so you support abortions at all stages of pregnancy anyways.

So basically, you're not pro-life, you're anti-womens choices? This is what that whole paragraph says, and it's actually the worst thing I've ever read from someone who pretends to be pro-life.

See that first question right there, thats the tactic, thats the loaded question, thats the trap.
It reminds me of an episode of the Simpsons where Lisa was in town hall, Mayor Quimby ws proposing some new law in the town that was idiotic and bound to fail, and the local fools not comprehending anything then support it. Come vote time, Mayor Quimby yells out "All in favor of blah blah blah say "Ay love America" all opposed say "I support marriage to barn yard animals.." Lisa is left with a lose lose course of action as are any of the voters..

Thats the fast talking you try to pull. Do I care about women's rights? If they encroach on an adolescent's then of course not. Am I "pro-life?" I approve of the death penalty, I had at one point joined the national guard, so that says it all. Pro-life does have rigid parameters and I am comfortable with the anti-abortion moniker.

If you cared so much about human life, your response to 2 lives being lost would NOT be 'it doesn't affect me'.

Its more of a coping mechanism. You don't know what I am about. You intentionally misinterpret whatever you can. I don't let those unstoppable acts effect me because I don't need to be kept up at night in deep thought. It would put the weight of the world on my shoulder. You don't want to think about the injustices that take place in the shadows, you know? There are always gonna be crimes that go unseen and unpunished no matter how hard the law enforcers go..
I defend INNOCENT lives, DEFENSELESS lives.

But just to put ur zaniness in perspective that last quote above is as stupid as you walking up to Spiderman after he saves people in a collapsing building following a natural disaster and then saying "Well you helped saved the other citizens of New York City so why not the Kingpin and the Hobgoblin too?"

I don't even know what you're going on about. I think someone who was 'pro-life' could tear apart your arguments.

The law against abortions demonstrated we tried, those slipping through the cracks and stil getting abortions shows we can't win them all.
S.O. motto "Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt."
Do some research instead of asking me to break everything down for you shrew. And obviously with the S.O. participants being ******ed that is the irony. Do you need "irony" defined for you to Peggy Sue?

Have you ever been sexually assaulted and suffered a pregnancy because of it? No? I'd stop acting as if you have any idea of the reasons for abortion, then.

I can not get pregnant under any scenario but I personally know what victims are feeling.. So are YOU a victim or are you another girl who cries "abuser!!!"

Sweeping it under the carpet is what 'pro-lifers' do when they act as if it's not an issue.

It is an issue and even in a dynamic where abortion is illegal and she was mandated to carry it to term leaving the baby in her care could be an ill thought out decision for any court.. And of course the concerns would be over the baby, once again..
I mean literally its not our problem.We are looking out for kids, the D.A. should be handling your attacker. Its every ones problem though.

Don't get me started on what happens in court to rape victims, and how 'seriously' they're taken. With a 5% conviction rate, there's no arguing it.

I understand what it means to be beat and weakened. You gals gotta understand that in court everyone has the right to defend themselves. Contrary to popular belief not everyone sitting in the dependent's seat committed a crime at all. Their lawyer has the right to defend him because his head his own the chopping block. It might be hard to face an accuser or recount what happened but court can not work without that and thats simply reality. I realize the girl is scared but I've also noticed y'all are scared of everythingggg.. When you think hes gonna kill you if you talk my response is "Why didn't he already then?" When they say "I don't want to relive it!" my response is how will a jury no? When they say "I am scared to be that close.." my response is the court has deputies and more then one if you please.. Then they say "Society needs to speak out, men need to speak up!" my response is how can you talk about others when y'all, by keeping mum, embolden the creeps and allow them to keep doing it to others? Then you gotta see someone talking about the horrors of these acts and how they want to inspire others to speak out. Yet her face is all blacked out! Court is a serious place, walking into court is like a gladiator walking into the Colosseum. Use logic, help the people there do their jobs, be prepared for a battle, and you'll see that 5 percent go up. Inject rationality and reason into your thought process and see how much fairer life will get for your gender.

So yeah I'd like to see you get started, really, please do.

But the woman can be punished, right?

How is she punished? Because shes the size of a tank? Because he kicks? You throw up? Now your angry because your a woman.. even thought that shits a part of being a woman?
You know what lay an egg already. Oh wait its a guy's fault your not an ostrich..

Well if the fetus is just as important as a full grown baby, then I don't see why. I love that. 5 grand for something that fits in a shoe box. I LOVE THAT YOU SAID IT YOURSELF. THAT'S EXACTLY IT! Why would I pay for that as if it were my child? It's not my child, it's a terminated fetus.

I'd probably throw a midget in the back yard too. The funeral diffidently is due to sentiment but my relationship with a fetus vs my bond with a baby has no bearing on the amount of effort used in its defense. They are both equal, to me a funeral is emotional dribble. Hell you ca view people you despise as your equal all day long, you ca defend your greatest enemies if its in the name of principles and you wouldn't be a flipflopper or hypocrite. Me not giving a fetus a funeral does not mean you have a point or that my support for them has eroded.

Btw, good job answering the part of my post that was just a Comedy Show Quote. You know, instead of the part that had actual substance.

You should had known better to insert any comments or pathetic attempts at satire by George "I am just a little too old to be a baby boomer but i'd still like to ramble incoherent thoughts in 4 hour intervals daily like one" Carlin

I'm not speaking Legal jargin at this point. Specifics don't matter in this case. The whole damn thing is just a biological process. Terminating it in it's early stages isn't murder. And when it winds up on a sanitary napkin it's not equivalent to someone getting hit in a car wreck. Because let's face it, do you honestly look at it as a tragedy if the 60% occurs. No. And yet it is a fertilized egg. Just like it is in the early half of the pregnancy. The only difference is the spot it's lached down at.

I wasn't really trying to speak legally either. But you cant do one thing that's the opposite of what your trying to do then say its not. I agree it ends up on the sanitary pad but i do think if she knew what she was looking at there would be a pause and a moment of thought. Now you don't get that with stained toilet paper..

Like I said before the internal journey is on the sperm. Its resilient. It and it alone must fight its way to the finish line. I can't take an air compressor and give it a boost. Its simply not interference. The issue your proposing is not an issue at all. An example of using bodily functions as a farm of infanticide would be my mom for example. She had RH blood, I had O -. If she had known of the issues that would cause and still choose to have unprotected sex knowing her RH blood would cause her immune system to attack me and then counted on that as a form of contraception and choose not to take the medication to prevent that she would be a murderer. Her choosing to have sex near a time in which her period would serve as a counter force to sperm attempting to get up is not murder because that is a natural NON-ABNORMAL (as opposed to my mom's blood type issue) bodily process. Even if she had not intended to time it like that the fertilized egg still has to implant itself in the proper place and in speedy time to get the nourishment that can lead to its development. I don't even think there is a means to remove the fertilized egg or even put it in another woman once its washed out or detected or w/e. At this point we can't assist. Like I said you can't stop one inch from the starting line and still want the gold even if the other runners are miles behind you... your debating on a false premise..

 

[HBK-aholic]

apparent you began to fall off and lose traction when the debate gets too academic.. The point was law or no law that does not mean a court down the line might not distributed accountability. The Nuremberg trials showed us that laws can be nullified retroactively, not recognized at all, or overruled on jurisdictional grounds. Following then-laws might not allow one to avoid prosecution. Not all laws or valid and the U.S. has demonstrated that its views on ex post facto acts is not iron clad.. You understand stand now boo boo? Good girl.

1. You should only use THAT type of posting, when you're better than the person you're debating. You're not better than me, and thus make yourself look like an idiot.

2. Again, what you've just posted has absolutely nothing to do with what I posted. Abortion is not murder - that is a fact. Down the line, if a stupid law was passed putting under the category of murder, then yes, it would be murder. Why? Because murder is a LEGAL term. You use it to emote people into thinking it's something bad and wrong, when in actual fact using the term 'murder' in this debate is wrong or right solely on what the law says. If abortion was suddenly made illegal, I still would think it should be legal, but under the law it would be murder. Currently, you're all wrong for calling it murder. Are we clear?

There are a lot of people right now well established in life who have no viability of surviving on their own. They still have their rights, I can not encroach and they can not be eroded easily.You said you were pro-choice so you support abortions at all stages of pregnancy anyways.

Sure, THAT'S what being pro-choice is . In actual fact, if the foetus can live separately from it's mother - why go through the procedure of abortion? The issue of when abortion should be allowed is not birth, it's viability.

See that first question right there, thats the tactic, thats the loaded question, thats the trap.

It's the truth.

Thats the fast talking you try to pull. Do I care about women's rights? If they encroach on an adolescent's then of course not. Am I "pro-life?" I approve of the death penalty, I had at one point joined the national guard, so that says it all. Pro-life does have rigid parameters and I am comfortable with the anti-abortion moniker.

Oh Lord are you kidding me? You're for the death penalty? But we as women can't decide whether we want to continue having cells feed off of us?

Its more of a coping mechanism. You don't know what I am about. You intentionally misinterpret whatever you can. I don't let those unstoppable acts effect me because I don't need to be kept up at night in deep thought. It would put the weight of the world on my shoulder. You don't want to think about the injustices that take place in the shadows, you know? There are always gonna be crimes that go unseen and unpunished no matter how hard the law enforcers go..

Well then why do you care so much about abortion being legal? It has nothing do to with you, it doesn't affect you. Odds are you don't know the women, their families. You don't even know it's happened in some cases.

Abortions will happen, legal or not. But you'll have a women dead as well as the foetus. I love that that's okay with you, it negates any reasons you have for abortion being illegal.

I defend INNOCENT lives, DEFENSELESS lives.

And who's going to defend my right to choose what I do with my body?

But just to put ur zaniness in perspective that last quote above is as stupid as you walking up to Spiderman after he saves people in a collapsing building following a natural disaster and then saying "Well you helped saved the other citizens of New York City so why not the Kingpin and the Hobgoblin too?"

The law against abortions demonstrated we tried, those slipping through the cracks and stil getting abortions shows we can't win them all.
S.O. motto "Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt."
Do some research instead of asking me to break everything down for you shrew. And obviously with the S.O. participants being ******ed that is the irony. Do you need "irony" defined for you to Peggy Sue?

I don't want to research things that have absolutely nothing to do with the argument. You bring up a load of shit as if you think it has any bearing at all on this argument, on what should happen, or what will happen. You attempt to speak down to me while making yourself look like a complete fool.

I can not get pregnant under any scenario

Well there we have it then. You have NO idea what it would feel like yet you assume abortions are undertaken for selfish reasons and all women who get one are awful.

Its every ones problem though. I understand what it means to be beat and weakened. You gals gotta understand that in court everyone has the right to defend themselves. Contrary to popular belief not everyone sitting in the dependent's seat committed a crime at all. Their lawyer has the right to defend him because his head his own the chopping block. It might be hard to face an accuser or recount what happened but court can not work without that and thats simply reality. I realize the girl is scared but I've also noticed y'all are scared of everythingggg..

So just incase everyone didn't realise how much of an idiot you were, the bold part has pretty much made sure it will happen.

When you think hes gonna kill you if you talk my response is "Why didn't he already then?"

It's a very effective scare tactic many attackers use, especially on younger victims. If someone had told a young child they'd be taken away from their family and no one would love them if they admitted what had happened, they shouldn't be scared?

When they say "I don't want to relive it!" my response is how will a jury no?

Would you want to relive it?

When they say "I am scared to be that close.." my response is the court has deputies and more then one if you please..

It's not the fear of a repeated attack, but what being close will bring back. The memories, sharper than ever.

Then they say "Society needs to speak out, men need to speak up!" my response is how can you talk about others when y'all, by keeping mum, embolden the creeps and allow them to keep doing it to others?

The people who say that are the ones who have gone through court, gone public with the attack. Thousands do not. Mny wonder what the point is - they're not likely to get a conviction, they're very likely to be cross-examined and made out to be a liar, they're going to be scrutinised. Is that something you'd want?

Then you gotta see someone talking about the horrors of these acts and how they want to inspire others to speak out. Yet her face is all blacked out! Court is a serious place, walking into court is like a gladiator walking into the Colosseum. Use logic, help the people there do their jobs, be prepared for a battle, and you'll see that 5 percent go up. Inject rationality and reason into your thought process and see how much fairer life will get for your gender.

Inject rationality?! Are you fucking kidding me? How about the courts stop being so male-orientated? How many female judges do we have in the Supreme Court? 1? How about we stop acting as if you can ask to be raped! How about what you were wearing not even be brought up? So what she had a glass of wine, that suddenly makes it ok to rape her? THESE beliefs need to stop in the court and in society. THEN the conviction rate will go up.

How is she punished? Because shes the size of a tank? Because he kicks? You throw up? Now your angry because your a woman.. even thought that shits a part of being a woman?

She's being punished by having to keep a pregnancy she doesn't want, nor ever instigated! What choice did she have in this? None. Not that you care, it's only the rights of foetuses that you give a shit about.

 

[Xemmy]

"How is she punished? Because shes the size of a tank? Because he kicks? You throw up? Now your angry because your a woman.. even thought that shits a part of being a woman?
You know what lay an egg already. Oh wait its a guy's fault your not an ostrich..

Holy Shit. I know this one isn't mine, but I've got to answer it.
1. Who the fuck are you to say that having to carry around a baby inside you for 9 months against your will isn't a punishment. That's not just a punishment, that's telling that woman that her body no longer belongs to her.
2. Have you ever given birth you prick? It's the worst pain many people ever feel. "Oh, well just have a C Section." Oh, so we'll just have you carry around the fetus until it's a baby, then when it's ready, we'll harvest it from you!
3. Show some respect you piece of shit.

I'd probably throw a midget in the back yard too. The funeral diffidently is due to sentiment but my relationship with a fetus vs my bond with a baby has no bearing on the amount of effort used in its defense. They are both equal, to me a funeral is emotional dribble. Hell you ca view people you despise as your equal all day long, you ca defend your greatest enemies if its in the name of principles and you wouldn't be a flipflopper or hypocrite. Me not giving a fetus a funeral does not mean you have a point or that my support for them has eroded.

The funeral is used for anyone that dies in this country. We even give them to prisoners on Death Row. I agree with you on it being emotional dribble, but suggesting that the dead fetus and the shoe box go together shows you value you it less than any other normal human being. And if that's what you think of midgets someone's losing fucking ground here. The point was is that you don't care for a fetus the way you care for a baby and there is a reason for it. It's not something we consider human yet.

You should had known better to insert any comments or pathetic attempts at satire by George "I am just a little too old to be a baby boomer but i'd still like to ramble incoherent thoughts in 4 hour intervals daily like one" Carlin

Your opinion of Carlin - 1. Stupid 2. Still doesn't answer my point. 3. Comedy Cental's 2nd out of 100 greatest comedian of all time.

I wasn't really trying to speak legally either. But you cant do one thing that's the opposite of what your trying to do then say its not. I agree it ends up on the sanitary pad but i do think if she knew what she was looking at there would be a pause and a moment of thought. Now you don't get that with stained toilet paper..

Murder is a legal term. Yeah, I got it wrong. Killing is a better term. Accidental killing. That can be done, and that's what it is. It's just done biologically. Oh, and since you didn't bother with last bit, I'm going to plant my little flag of victory there.

Like I said before the internal journey is on the sperm. Its resilient. It and it alone must fight its way to the finish line. I can't take an air compressor and give it a boost. Its simply not interference. The issue your proposing is not an issue at all. An example of using bodily functions as a farm of infanticide would be my mom for example. She had RH blood, I had O -. If she had known of the issues that would cause and still choose to have unprotected sex knowing her RH blood would cause her immune system to attack me and then counted on that as a form of contraception and choose not to take the medication to prevent that she would be a murderer. Her choosing to have sex near a time in which her period would serve as a counter force to sperm attempting to get up is not murder because that is a natural NON-ABNORMAL (as opposed to my mom's blood type issue) bodily process. Even if she had not intended to time it like that the fertilized egg still has to implant itself in the proper place and in speedy time to get the nourishment that can lead to its development. I don't even think there is a means to remove the fertilized egg or even put it in another woman once its washed out or detected or w/e. At this point we can't assist. Like I said you can't stop one inch from the starting line and still want the gold even if the other runners are miles behind you... your debating on a false premise..

He's so cute. He thinks he can think. One, no, it's not on the sperm alone. It's also on the man, for being at the right place at the right time. And if you're anything like me, you're genociding quite a few of those little bastards. Or are you one of those crazy people that think Masterbation will send you to hell? Natural and Non-Abnormal have literally absolutely nothing to do with whether or not something is murder. Now who's debating on a false premise?
And let's stop using that term, since it's defintion isn't really the one we're looking for. Killing. That's a better one.
Did you have to use you and your mother as an example? You're also seem to be forgeting that once it has reached the "finish line" and gotten the gold, and attached itself--- Its still not a baby. It's still 29 weeks before brain processes begin.

My overall point is this. (I'm doing this because you've begun talking so abstactly about finish lines that it's hard to even understand what you're saying anymore, so I'm going to drop it.)

The first two are list of facts- you cannot get around them. Two is variable because I suppose you could say the only thing we value about human life is simply sharing DNA. But I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's wrong.

1. A sperm has all the major things a fetus does, and it's not considered wrong to kill them. A) It's alive. B) It's a potential human baby. C) It does not have self awareness, or thought process. Something a Fetus does not gain until the 29th week. The only difference with between the two is that the fetus has got some armor, and has started on the next leg of the journey, which takes about another week. Then it gets there and starts growing.

2. The Fetus has not developed any of the qualities we value in a human life, UNTIL the 29th week (because it's brain has reached full development and simply grows), or unless it the mother does want it from the begining.


3. I don't believe in the sanctity of life. The only difference between a flower and fetus is DNA and Cell structure. The only logical way to judge what we should not kill is by what we value in a living person. You wouldn't kill a pig that had these qualities. Awareness, Reasoning, Communication, and consciousness. You also woudn't if it had social relationships. Everybody has these things. Except Mr. Fetus.


4. And the most important. It's a woman's right to choose, and not giving her that choice is a violation of her rights. SHE is a person. You know with those things Mr. Fetus doesn't have. Feelings, thoughts, and people that they care about.

 

[One to Remember]

1. You should only use THAT type of posting, when you're better than the person you're debating. You're not better than me, and thus make yourself look like an idiot.

Oh I beg to differ..

2. Again, what you've just posted has absolutely nothing to do with what I posted. Abortion is not murder - that is a fact. Down the line, if a stupid law was passed putting under the category of murder, then yes, it would be murder. Why? Because murder is a LEGAL term. You use it to emote people into thinking it's something bad and wrong, when in actual fact using the term 'murder' in this debate is wrong or right solely on what the law says. If abortion was suddenly made illegal, I still would think it should be legal, but under the law it would be murder. Currently, you're all wrong for calling it murder. Are we clear?

Again plenty of individuals have faced prosecution for actions that were legal under then-law. The World War II war crimes tribunal and trials at the Hague have shown that in some cases your point is moot. I would never say something was right because it was legal and wrong because it was illega because that is ludicrous. The term is killing as opposed to murder or terminating.
If abortion were made illegal your opinions wouldn't because every law enforcement agency in this country would be there to shut down what you encourage these rogue women to do..

In actual fact, if the foetus can live separately from it's mother - why go through the procedure of abortion? The issue of when abortion should be allowed is not birth, it's viability.

if the fetus is not human why worry about it? If it is in fact not a living thing why not just go about your business and leave it be?

Oh Lord are you kidding me? You're for the death penalty? But we as women can't decide whether we want to continue having cells feed off of us?

For those who have not been wrongly covicted they are facing the grim reaper for two very important reasons, 1. They need to be. 2. They bit off more then they could chew..

Well then why do you care so much about abortion being legal? It has nothing do to with you, it doesn't affect you. Odds are you don't know the women, their families. You don't even know it's happened in some cases.

Abortions will happen, legal or not. But you'll have a women dead as well as the foetus. I love that that's okay with you, it negates any reasons you have for abortion being illegal.

Because its wrong and its picking a fight with something that can't defend itself. You'd think a woman would know all about that concept right there.
If abortions are illegal the penalty will be enough to deter the vast majority of women from terminating their pregnancies. Because I favor capital punishment for capital crimes? What does that negate? I don't think babies can do wrong, they are perfect, a fetus is too. The things that land people on death row a baby or fetus could never ever do... So I don't see how its negating my argument.. I'm not pro-life I am pro-children's rights, pro-chance, pro-opportunity.

And who's going to defend my right to choose what I do with my body?

Its not your body because thats now how HUMANS are set up. You don't lay eggs you dont get to walk away. And I do because I am a male. I know that steams you up. I'm not taunting y'all but that whole setup right there is just how it is. GET OVER IT!

Well there we have it then. You have NO idea what it would feel like yet you assume abortions are undertaken for selfish reasons and all women who get one are awful.

I don't care what it feels like. If I had a kid it might not hurt as much. Any lick a man takes a woman will feel it twice as hard. As the weaker gender everything hurts you more. My bones are harder, we can hold our bladders longer, etc etc. I don't think the baby would hurt for the most part. He's got more room inside of me too. I don't think they are all awful or selfish I think they are treading on human rights to avenge their past lack of rights. I think you are angry we don't have to have children. Quit being bitter about nature.

So just incase everyone didn't realise how much of an idiot you were, the bold part has pretty much made sure it will happen.

I mean seriously all bullshit put aside you kinda fucking are. You trimble at everything, you freeze up, you panic at danger, you do as your told more often then any man i know could fathom. Watch any crime show, talk show, anything, here the stories here how the girl just shuts down. Your essentially scaredy cats. The scaredy cat gender, but sometimes you gotta stand up. If you don't grow a pair people can't help you. The way the system works is fair,you want accommodations that make court lopsided. Everyone has the right to face their accuser. The people who stole my Dodge will be in court, I respect their right to see me and try to argue they did nothing wrong. The jury can't link up to you telepathically, the D.A. can't make evidence out of none, and the judge isn't clairvoyant yet its court's fault the conviction rate is 5%.

It's a very effective scare tactic many attackers use, especially on younger victims. If someone had told a young child they'd be taken away from their family and no one would love them if they admitted what had happened, they shouldn't be scared?

There you go again. I would never speak like this to a child. I am talking about grown women here not kids. That doesn't even make sense to belueve that. Based on what logic would your parents say it was wrong of you to be raped? My next question is if you some how found one why would they not hold your attacker accountable as well? The next question is if everyone WILL BLAME YOU then what does he fear? Why are you being asked to keep a secret if there are no consequences for him? Based on your "logic" that is.. OMMFG.

Would you want to relive it?

No. So its your call. Let him go lose or help bring him down. If my daughter was his next victim because some dumb broad wouldn't help the cops, after papa bear a.k.a. me, has to go out and do something to someone who hurt his cub, I might be lookin for that girl who choked on the stand next... At the least, she will address my kid!

The people who say that are the ones who have gone through court, gone public with the attack. Thousands do not. Mny wonder what the point is - they're not likely to get a conviction, they're very likely to be cross-examined and made out to be a liar, they're going to be scrutinised. Is that something you'd want?

I will keep my cool, my composure, and I will return fire in court. If we tried everything and it fails I'll go to another jurisdiction if need be, I'll testify in another person's trial, whatever it takes.
And people do lie..

Something I learned when I got older is sometimes being right isn't always enough.

Inject rationality?! Are you fucking kidding me? How about the courts stop being so male-orientated? How many female judges do we have in the Supreme Court? 1? How about we stop acting as if you can ask to be raped! How about what you were wearing not even be brought up? So what she had a glass of wine, that suddenly makes it ok to rape her? THESE beliefs need to stop in the court and in society.

As far as law makers are concerned we got like 15 female U.S. senators which is alot. You tlk about male dominated but women are just as likely to ask what the girl was wearing. I don't care if she was wearing a fig leaf and a lot of other people don't view it like that either. There are 3 females on a court with seven justices i think. yeah read a book. How could you not know we had three? thats nearly half..

She's being punished by having to keep a pregnancy she doesn't want, nor ever instigated! What choice did she have in this? None. Not that you care, it's only the rights of foetuses that you give a shit about.

Okay what dynamics are we talking about here? We have no tangible evidence but mere speculation that the number of pregnancies due to rape is higher then the statistics which themselves are somewhat small. Then when we get to the ones have been raped how many in fact had access to emergency contraceptive yet still took none or for some reason did not know it existed? Even if I supported abortions for that minority even that would have criteria to meet and that would almost make abortions nil.

Holy Shit. I know this one isn't mine

your right, you should how you say uh butt out..

but I've got to answer it.

nuh uh

1. Who the fuck are you to say that having to carry around a baby inside you for 9 months against your will isn't a punishment. That's not just a punishment, that's telling that woman that her body no longer belongs to her.

Its always a punishment! Quit being so gotdamn theatrical! If she has a baby planned down the line or if she has one due to rape its goingto be the exact same ride. For her to make major differentiations between 9 months with a baby she planned and one resulting from rape is discrimination. If we allow her to draw that line between two individuals next shes gonna say she doesn't have to treat people with respect her own age because they're the result of rape. There are many people in society who are the result of rape, are we gonna make them an underclass deemed dirty and scandalous?! Is she gonna get a job at a nursery and then pay less attention or neglect the rape seed babies?! I think she'd be fired, don't you? Do you then approve of that?

2. Have you ever given birth you prick?

I have had hemorrhoids i had to pick out when i was a kid. Hard as a fucking rock the size of my 10 year old fist. And that tore my ass up.

It's the worst pain many people ever feel. "Oh, well just have a C Section." Oh, so we'll just have you carry around the fetus until it's a baby, then when it's ready, we'll harvest it from you!

I think the homeless guy who was smashed in the trash compactor would beg to differ. Better examples would include our troops in Iraq who have survived IED blasts..
If its the worst pain anyone feels why does anyone do it? How does anyone survive it? Is she never gonna have kids because of the pain? Oh she will and then say thats worth it because it wasn't forced in her? How the hell can the same exact pains in two different scenarios be tolerated in one because the creation of life in one was intentional?

3. Show some respect you piece of shit.

quit trying to get laid you kiss ass!

The funeral is used for anyone that dies in this country. We even give them to prisoners on Death Row. I agree with you on it being emotional dribble, but suggesting that the dead fetus and the shoe box go together shows you value you it less than any other normal human being.

No it dosn't. Just because one is in lock down and facing execution by the state doesn't men that he did not have an impact or social standing. A funeral is either a tribute to your status or a gesture of respect in assuming you have one when. The latter refers to those anonymous individuals no one claims who still get funerals. How can you get emotional over a fetus? You don't. But I have not made any emotional appeals this whole times nor do i feel my like or dislike of someone voids their right to life. I love the fetus, have contempt for the fetus, no developed bond, it has no bearing what so ever on my views on its protections..

The point was is that you don't care for a fetus the way you care for a baby and there is a reason for it. It's not something we consider human yet.

I don't like old people but I am not going to petition to have them euthanized when they are all through and dependent and feeble.

Oh, and since you didn't bother with last bit, I'm going to plant my little flag of victory there.

What did I miss?

One, no, it's not on the sperm alone. It's also on the man, for being at the right place at the right time. And if you're anything like me, you're genociding quite a few of those little bastards.

Nah nah, I aint nothin like you.. I've never hit it protected and no one is pregnant yet. Why? No clue. My timing does not make me accountable and sperms arent anything.

Or are you one of those crazy people that think Masterbation will send you to hell? Natural and Non-Abnormal have literally absolutely nothing to do with whether or not something is murder.

No I am one of those guys that think only punks and nancy boys do that shit. Harry Potters and Steve Urkels and other such clowns. I stick it, I don't grip it.
Murder always has a component of INTENT. Killing does not..

You're also seem to be forgeting that once it has reached the "finish line" and gotten the gold, and attached itself--- Its still not a baby. It's still 29 weeks before brain processes begin.

It doesn't matter. Once it reaches the point where, pending on a lack of abnormalities or disorders, we can sit back do nothing and it just grows its now entitled to an additional external line of defense, i.e. what should be the law..

1. A sperm has all the major things a fetus does, and it's not considered wrong to kill them. A) It's alive. B) It's a potential human baby. C) It does not have self awareness, or thought process. Something a Fetus does not gain until the 29th week.

Because we don't have the ability to procreate asexually I object to sperm rights. But what your saying about sperm is off topic because you and me are not clones of our respective fathers. We are the combination of them and our mothers. When attachment begins to the mother its in the same manner as a parasite would do. If your trying to say that a sperm is equal to a fertilized egg then i question the means in which life could be developed exclusively from sperm. Also with so many parasitic elements why doesn't the sperm attach itself to the man's body and began to nourish itself?

2. The Fetus has not developed any of the qualities we value in a human life, UNTIL the 29th week (because it's brain has reached full development and simply grows), or unless it the mother does want it from the begining.

what others value in any person thats not them self is irrelevant in every means possible.

Awareness, Reasoning, Communication, and consciousness. You also woudn't if it had social relationships.

A baby technically lacks all of those things. A new born baby is not truly aware of anything. A baby can't reason because it can't talk. Its eyes barely follow the objects in front of it. Crying is as communicative to me as a dog's bark or a wolf's howl.. Its not a farm of communication because its not clear what is needed and things like feeding and changing have to be done for any individual period and often too. Consciousness? A baby is not even aware of what awareness is.. It just is awake..

4. And the most important. It's a woman's right to choose, and not giving her that choice is a violation of her rights.

Wow hell of a speech the Libertarian Party of the United States needs you as its candidate for the 2012 presidential election. I really think you have the potential to unseat Obama..

Look personal rights do not supersede human rights.. Its long been established in international law that no law can impede on that and be valid..

 

[HBK-aholic]

Oh I beg to differ..

Well, you're the only one.

Again plenty of individuals have faced prosecution for actions that were legal under then-law. The World War II war crimes tribunal and trials at the Hague have shown that in some cases your point is moot. I would never say something was right because it was legal and wrong because it was illega because that is ludicrous. The term is killing as opposed to murder or terminating.

And THAT was my point exactly - abortion isn't murder.

If abortion were made illegal your opinions wouldn't because every law enforcement agency in this country would be there to shut down what you encourage these rogue women to do.. if the fetus is not human why worry about it? If it is in fact not a living thing why not just go about your business and leave it be?

I'm sorry, I do what? Being pro-choice is not about being pro-abortion. I would NEVER encourage a woman to choose abortion and neither do a majority of people who are pro-choice. It's called pro-choice for a reason - it's your OWN choice what you do with your body.

For those who have not been wrongly covicted they are facing the grim reaper for two very important reasons, 1. They need to be. 2. They bit off more then they could chew..

You can't decide when life is sacred. You either think life is important, so abortion should be illegal, and the death penalty should be banned, or you don't.

Because its wrong and its picking a fight with something that can't defend itself. You'd think a woman would know all about that concept right there.
If abortions are illegal the penalty will be enough to deter the vast majority of women from terminating their pregnancies.

I beg to differ. In a majority of cases an abortion is taken because the woman is desperate, and feels she has no other choice. I doubt legality would stop that in many cases.

Because I favor capital punishment for capital crimes? What does that negate? I don't think babies can do wrong, they are perfect, a fetus is too. The things that land people on death row a baby or fetus could never ever do... So I don't see how its negating my argument.. I'm not pro-life I am pro-children's rights, pro-chance, pro-opportunity.

But not pro-womens rights, I see. What if the child you save grows up to want an abortion? Would you fight for it's rights then?

Its not your body because thats now how HUMANS are set up. You don't lay eggs you dont get to walk away. And I do because I am a male. I know that steams you up. I'm not taunting y'all but that whole setup right there is just how it is. GET OVER IT!

You're a complete asshole. It is MY body, the fact you're telling me it isn't is just laughable. People who AGREE with your stance can see how bd your argument is.

Out of curiosity, I wonder if you'd feel the same if you WERE the one to get pregnant. Convenient you can just walk away and not have it affect you, eh?

I don't care what it feels like. If I had a kid it might not hurt as much. Any lick a man takes a woman will feel it twice as hard. As the weaker gender everything hurts you more. My bones are harder, we can hold our bladders longer, etc etc. I don't think the baby would hurt for the most part. He's got more room inside of me too. I don't think they are all awful or selfish I think they are treading on human rights to avenge their past lack of rights. I think you are angry we don't have to have children. Quit being bitter about nature.

Oh my god are you for real? Go ahead and squeeze a baby out of your penis, we'll see how comfortable that is, okay?

I mean seriously all bullshit put aside you kinda fucking are. You trimble at everything, you freeze up, you panic at danger, you do as your told more often then any man i know could fathom. Watch any crime show, talk show, anything, here the stories here how the girl just shuts down. Your essentially scaredy cats. The scaredy cat gender, but sometimes you gotta stand up. If you don't grow a pair people can't help you. The way the system works is fair,you want accommodations that make court lopsided.

You're so sexist it's fucking unbelievable.

Everyone has the right to face their accuser. The people who stole my Dodge will be in court, I respect their right to see me and try to argue they did nothing wrong. The jury can't link up to you telepathically, the D.A. can't make evidence out of none, and the judge isn't clairvoyant yet its court's fault the conviction rate is 5%.

You do know the conviction rate is based solely upon those who DO go into court and give evidence, right? It has nothing to do with those who don't tell anyone. And who have their own reasons for doing so. Until you're in the situation, you have no idea.

There you go again. I would never speak like this to a child. I am talking about grown women here not kids. That doesn't even make sense to belueve that. Based on what logic would your parents say it was wrong of you to be raped? My next question is if you some how found one why would they not hold your attacker accountable as well? The next question is if everyone WILL BLAME YOU then what does he fear? Why are you being asked to keep a secret if there are no consequences for him? Based on your "logic" that is..

When you've just been raped, you don't think like this. It's easy now to sit and say 'It's obviously not your fault' or 'He obviously just wants me to keep quiet so he doesn't get into trouble'. But this is one of the biggest traumas you can go through - your emotions and feelings are all over the place. You blame yourself, telling someone feels alien because they'll blame you too. Sound stupid to you? Maybe it does, but if you were in the situation it'd be how your mind works.

OMMFG. No. So its your call. Let him go lose or help bring him down. If my daughter was his next victim because some dumb broad wouldn't help the cops, after papa bear a.k.a. me, has to go out and do something to someone who hurt his cub, I might be lookin for that girl who choked on the stand next... At the least, she will address my kid!

Why don't you go after the rapist? I'd love to see how your child would react, truly. Would you call her a coward if she froze up on the stand? How dare she not want to face him, and tell strangers her worst nightmare realised? Damn she's an awful person.

As far as law makers are concerned we got like 15 female U.S. senators which is alot. You tlk about male dominated but women are just as likely to ask what the girl was wearing. I don't care if she was wearing a fig leaf and a lot of other people don't view it like that either. There are 3 females on a court with seven justices i think. yeah read a book. How could you not know we had three? thats nearly half..

I'm talking about England, being English and all. It doesn't matter WHO asks the question - the point is the question is asked. What does it matter what she was wearing? It doesn't, yet the fact it's even mentioned allows her to feel some blame in the incident. Otherwise, why would they ask?

Okay what dynamics are we talking about here? We have no tangible evidence but mere speculation that the number of pregnancies due to rape is higher then the statistics which themselves are somewhat small. Then when we get to the ones have been raped how many in fact had access to emergency contraceptive yet still took none or for some reason did not know it existed? Even if I supported abortions for that minority even that would have criteria to meet and that would almost make abortions nil.

We have no statistics, hence why I haven't given any. I don't care if the statistic is 0.000001% of all abortions, it should still be legal.

Regarding emergency contraception - first, if you've just been raped, you seem to be under the mindset that your mind is completely logical. It isn't, pregnancy may not enter your mind for months. When you're been shaken up in such a way, your mind doesn't work as you like to think it would. Second, emergency contraception isn't 100% effective.

 

[Xemmy]

your right, you should how you say uh butt out..nuh uh

I would if all you were doing was debating. But it isn't that. Apparently a fetus which has the intelligence of a primitive arthropod has more rights than women.

Its always a punishment! Quit being so gotdamn theatrical! If she has a baby planned down the line or if she has one due to rape its goingto be the exact same ride. For her to make major differentiations between 9 months with a baby she planned and one resulting from rape is discrimination. If we allow her to draw that line between two individuals next shes gonna say she doesn't have to treat people with respect her own age because they're the result of rape. There are many people in society who are the result of rape, are we gonna make them an underclass deemed dirty and scandalous?! Is she gonna get a job at a nursery and then pay less attention or neglect the rape seed babies?! I think she'd be fired, don't you? Do you then approve of that?

I have to resort to theatrics. You can't expect a documentary filled with facts and logic to beat a Tom Cruise movie at theaters do you. Filled with action, explosions that would never happen in real life, and a hatred of women. Oh, wait, forget that last part. Same ride, eh? Sure physically. But it's also the difference of putting someone on the roller coaster that doesn't want to be on one. Some people think it's fun. Others think it's tramatic, are scared for their life, and generally come off it shaken and disturbed. Ofcourse we're comparing a ride that lasts a minute and half to one that lasts nine months. Someone's emotional climate seems to mean nothing to you. Which is probably why you see people and egg sacs as equivelant. Neglect the rape seed babies? Why would she neglect other peoples children if it's her job, that she takes willingly?---Free Will- That's our word of the day. You don't have it, if you're not allowed to control your own body. The fetus does not own the mothers body just because it set up shop there.

I have had hemorrhoids i had to pick out when i was a kid. Hard as a fucking rock the size of my 10 year old fist. And that tore my ass up.

Yes, and would you like it if you got them again and someone forced you to keep them for 9 months? You know they're living things too, with Human DNA. They have every right to live too you know. Oh, and a side note. You deserved it considering the way you treat women.

I think the homeless guy who was smashed in the trash compactor would beg to differ. Better examples would include our troops in Iraq who have survived IED blasts..

One of the worst pains many people feel. I'm pretty sure that's what I said. The homeless guy and troops in Iraq could still agree to that, even if their pain was worse.

If its the worst pain anyone feels why does anyone do it? How does anyone survive it? Is she never gonna have kids because of the pain? Oh she will and then say thats worth it because it wasn't forced in her? How the hell can the same exact pains in two different scenarios be tolerated in one because the creation of life in one was intentional? quit trying to get laid you kiss ass!
No it dosn't.

Ask your mother how giving birth to you felt. If she wanted you and really loves you, she'd still say it was worth the pain. If someone doesn't want her child, then why would it be worth the pain.
There happens to be a difference between trying to get laid, and calling someone out for being the sexist douchebag that they are. Oh, and btw, I happen to be Gay. If I was a woman, it woud be because I'm siding with my own. You'd probably have a way to claim I was biased to the situation if I was genderless.

Just because one is in lock down and facing execution by the state doesn't men that he did not have an impact or social standing. A funeral is either a tribute to your status or a gesture of respect in assuming you have one when. The latter refers to those anonymous individuals no one claims who still get funerals.

Exactly, it shows that the rest of us have been clued in on the fact that even prisoners are more important that the almighty fetus.

How can you get emotional over a fetus? You don't. But I have not made any emotional appeals this whole times nor do i feel my like or dislike of someone voids their right to life. I love the fetus, have contempt for the fetus, no developed bond, it has no bearing what so ever on my views on its protections.. I don't like old people but I am not going to petition to have them euthanized when they are all through and dependent and feeble.

We don't kill a fetus because it's outlived it's usefulness. We kill it because it's a burden on the woman carrying it, and she her rights shouldn't be violated because something that has NONE of the qualities we cherish in a person might one day be a person. If old people had the exact same attributes as a fetus, I'd say get rid of em. But they don't.

What did I miss?Nah nah, I aint nothin like you.. I've never hit it protected and no one is pregnant yet. Why? No clue. My timing does not make me accountable and sperms arent anything. No I am one of those guys that think only punks and nancy boys do that shit. Harry Potters and Steve Urkels and other such clowns. I stick it, I don't grip it.

90% of men masterbate, and the other 10 are lying Christians who are too ashamed to admit it because they've been told it's a sin. And your right. You are nothing like me. You're not intelligent, you don't care about the rights of the opposite gender, and you just an all around asshole. Doesn't change biology.

Murder always has a component of INTENT. Killing does not.. It doesn't matter. Once it reaches the point where, pending on a lack of abnormalities or disorders, we can sit back do nothing and it just grows its now entitled to an additional external line of defense, i.e. what should be the law.. Because we don't have the ability to procreate asexually I object to sperm rights. But what your saying about sperm is off topic because you and me are not clones of our respective fathers. We are the combination of them and our mothers. When attachment begins to the mother its in the same manner as a parasite would do.

Procreation variation doesn't determine rights. And Murder is also the unlawful killing of another human being. Well, it's not unlawful. So let's not get worried about what murder is and isn't. The only real difference is the a parasite intentionally harms the host. Doesn't mean a woman has to carry it just because it isn't trying to physically hurt her.

If your trying to say that a sperm is equal to a fertilized egg then i question the means in which life could be developed exclusively from sperm. Also with so many parasitic elements why doesn't the sperm attach itself to the man's body and began to nourish itself?what others value in any person thats not them self is irrelevant in every means possible. A baby technically lacks all of those things. A new born baby is not truly aware of anything. A baby can't reason because it can't talk. Its eyes barely follow the objects in front of it.

I question the means a fertilized egg could develope exlusively without the uterus. If women laid their eggs and burried them, I'd say you had a point. And I said communication, not advanced language. And yes a baby doesn't have many of those things, but it is conscious (with the ability to feel pain) and it usually has someone who loves them. Those are two of the qualities I mentioned. We've been through this part. The nervous system completes at the 29th week.

Crying is as communicative to me as a dog's bark or a wolf's howl.. Its not a farm of communication because its not clear what is needed and things like feeding and changing have to be done for any individual period and often too. Consciousness? A baby is not even aware of what awareness is.. It just is awake.. Wow hell of a speech the Libertarian Party of the United States needs you as its candidate for the 2012 presidential election. I really think you have the potential to unseat Obama..

Yep. Don't kill the K-9s. But hell what do I care, no one loves them.
A baby doesn't have all the qualities on my list, as I said before, but the ability to feel pain, and the act of crying as basic communication show that it has a degree of Consciousness....

I hope so. He's not doing a very good job.

Look personal rights do not supersede human rights.. Its long been established in international law that no law can impede on that and be valid..

Human rights aren't applied to just creatures with human DNA. Otherwise Cancer has a right to live. Not to compare a Fetus to something that kills you, but regardless the analogy works. We give human rights to those that have the qualities we define as human. Second, assuming that we live in a reality were the Fetus has the rights of a person, this still isn't Personal Rights verses human rights. It's Human Rights Vs Human Rights.

 

[JustSoDashing]

No need to be going at each others throats. This is a pretty easy topic if you ask me. Personally I don't think abortion is always the best option or that it should be the first, but there most definitely are situations where it's either A. the right thing to do or B. the humane thing to do.

If a woman has been raped and is pregnant as a result it is her choice whether or not she wants to endure the rigors of pregnancy and then the hardships of raising that child. If doctors are certain that the child will suffer from mental or physical handicaps, it's the choice of the parent(s) if they want to bring that child into the world to suffer. If giving birth may result in death of the mother, it is the woman's choice whether she wants to take the risk or not. These things no one can or should have say over.

The only instance where I think abortion is far and away unacceptable is when you have women using it as a form of birth control. If you are just irresponsible and unwilling to own up to your mistakes, that's your problem and you need to deal with it. A life should not suffer the consequences of your actions. This is one of those cases where I would suggest going through with the pregnancy and labor and giving the child up for adoption. There is no reason to kill the child, simply because you slept around and got knocked up. If there is a legit medical reason for it, I say abortion is a viable option for certain scenarios. Using it as a form of birth control however is where I'd say you transfer into the needless murdering of an unborn child.

 

[Xemmy]

This is the last thing I'm going to post on this thread. It's getting tedious and everyone's already made their points.

This video covers the adoption slightly, but also brings the idea that some people shouldn't have been born. Not because they're evil, but because they would have been better off.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkTJU0ZvhRA[/YOUTUBE]

 

[One to Remember]

Well, you're the only one.

No I am not. Lots of people agree with what I have said word for word, they are the silent majority but they are here at WZ and everywhere else online and in the globe..

And THAT was my point exactly - abortion isn't murder.

That is not a point because I WAS NOT the one using that terminology, fury was. I agree with YOU.
It might had even been wrong of him to use the term. An attempt on his end to confuse readers and arouse sympathy.

I would NEVER encourage a woman to choose abortion and neither do a majority of people who are pro-choice. It's called pro-choice for a reason - it's your OWN choice what you do with your body.

I think perhaps your just sitting on the fence then. I think maybe your a neutralist. Maybe its better to call your camp pro-mind your business. In that case mind your business when people with my views argue with those who have abortions. I am fine for my side because I have not had nor have I backed an abortion. But you have not had an abortion I presume yet you feel the need to join in solidarity with those that do?
IF ITS YOUR BODY why the hell are you vassals at all for any separate life?

You can't decide when life is sacred. You either think life is important, so abortion should be illegal, and the death penalty should be banned, or you don't.

I have seen MSNBC's Lock UP and their tours of the British penal system. Knowing now that your English I see why you are weak on capital punishment.. The people on deathrow are threats that need to be repelled or terminated. Your comparing a fetus, a soon to be baby, to some fucking baboon who ran up on somebody and used lethal force? Are you a fuckin hippie or sumthing?

I beg to differ. In a majority of cases an abortion is taken because the woman is desperate, and feels she has no other choice. I doubt legality would stop that in many cases.

Even so assuming she does move outside of the law atleast their will be some recourse.

But not pro-womens rights, I see. What if the child you save grows up to want an abortion? Would you fight for it's rights then?

NO NO NO. She can not have an abortion, me saving her from abortion probably would lead her to not even believe in it but if through some madness she does I will hold steady. Is that not a form of corruption though? Having principles one situation but then depending on personal relationship with those who don't share them deciding to ignore your own beliefs? That to me is soo hypocritical. But hey your British, you freed the jews from camps only to encourage them to destroy the Palestinians and practice 5he very prejudice in the British mandate that they had experienced in Germany.. Yeah thats classic British flip flopping. Britain, one of the most hypocritical countries on earth, in HISTORY. Woww now I see why we have a break down in communications. Different region, different mentality..

As far as women's rights are concerned we have them here. They are equal to males, any further additions and males would then be inferior to women. We have reached the point in America where women's rights amounts to nothing more then a smoke screen for sexism and retribution against men for any past injustice that can be thought of. you know this to be so baby.

You're a complete asshole. It is MY body, the fact you're telling me it isn't is just laughable. People who AGREE with your stance can see how bd your argument is.

Out of curiosity, I wonder if you'd feel the same if you WERE the one to get pregnant. Convenient you can just walk away and not have it affect you, eh?

You probably love assholes hahaha. It is your body when there isn't another humanic entity attached to it. It is your body but if it was meant to be your body you simply would not have children through birth. You quite literally would lay an egg then a determination could be made if it would be incubated or not.

That list bit about me walking away, thats bitterness. Guys have it so easy but little ol' me has it hard. If I had gotten yo pregnant i would not walk away because im not a dead beat, if i raped you i could not simply walk away because there should then be a felony warrant for my arrest which will follow me EVERYWHERE..

You're so sexist it's fucking unbelievable.

I am not sexist i am just tired of the cry baby act. If your gender began to fight for itself, speak loudly, and assert itself instead of being emotional and being treacherous to your fellow females you would not have so many social pressures and double standards on you. There are more women saying a rape victim is a ****e then men are. In this country more men would vote for a female president hen women. You're all backwards and confused half the time. classic girl quote "my head was spinning, i dont know!!"

You do know the conviction rate is based solely upon those who DO go into court and give evidence, right? It has nothing to do with those who don't tell anyone. And who have their own reasons for doing so. Until you're in the situation, you have no idea.

Where is that number from, what year, what country, what source? And then there are other variables like breaking down on stand. And then there is that pesky habbit of waiting and then the granddaddy screw up of them all, THE WASHING AWAY OF EVIDENCE in that first shower/bath post-rape. I think thats effected the conviction rape.

your emotions and feelings are all over the place. You blame yourself, telling someone feels alien because they'll blame you too. Sound stupid to you? Maybe it does, but if you were in the situation it'd be how your mind works.

Yeah as always your emotions and feelings, which you have all too many period complicate things. If you think someone you know and love would switch up on you at all why do you have relationships? This skewed logic is always present is the thing that bothers me. The thing about family is they will support their own, the most amazing part is the vast majority will ALSO support their own EVEN WHEN THEY ARE THE ONE IN THE WRONG..
And know it doesn't sound stupid to me it sounds like psychosis. No as a victim of abuse I tell you I never thought my mom for instance or grandma would never not take my side.

Why don't you go after the rapist? I'd love to see how your child would react, truly. Would you call her a coward if she froze up on the stand? How dare she not want to face him, and tell strangers her worst nightmare realised? Damn she's an awful person.

The second I got on his trail I'd close in on him, hunt him down and handle that creep the only way I know how. Jealous much?

As far as the court of law is concerned I going to explain to my daughter or even son how everything works and why its important that she or he be there and that the truth is not a bad thing. They are going to know that I will be right there and that I will not let anything happen to them. They are going to know that we need to be the good guys and tell what happened because he is a bad guy and we want to help others. I will explained to my daughter or son that they would be just like super heroes if they were honest. I will would not force them but explain to them fully the consequences to others if they did not bt I would tell them I am not going to punish them. I would also explain to them that in life being right has not always been good enough. Its not about being right it is about doing right.

My children would early on understand that somethings people do to you are wrong and that they want to do harm. My daughters will be taught to defend themselves as much as the boys are. The girls will especially know that know one is to disrespect their virtue and that there is never an excuse for them to be abused. They will know that I will watch out for them until I am no longer in this world and that in order for me to keep them safe they are to tell me so that i can do that effectively.

I'm talking about England, being English and all. It doesn't matter WHO asks the question - the point is the question is asked. What does it matter what she was wearing? It doesn't, yet the fact it's even mentioned allows her to feel some blame in the incident. Otherwise, why would they ask?

I do not care about England.. Most of us here are from the UNITED STATES.. Someone will always be around to ask a stupid question. Why do you throw that up in my face if I have already told you I don't care what people are wearing? There are a lot of people who don't care what she wore too and they are very vocal about it. I think the women condemning other women because of some ingrained need to compete is what hurts you all as a whole socially. I know what to say to a man that says something stupid like that, usually when a woman blames the victim I am thrown off. I think that undermines the attempt of men to educate other men, don't you?

Regarding emergency contraception - first, if you've just been raped, you seem to be under the mindset that your mind is completely logical. It isn't, pregnancy may not enter your mind for months. When you're been shaken up in such a way, your mind doesn't work as you like to think it would. Second, emergency contraception isn't 100% effective

We all got to get a grip, its called snapping back into reality.. Everything living entity on this planet has a goal of defending itself. Self defense and self preservation is an innate priority. What enters your mind? You act like a zombie feasted on your brain for God's sake. What are you even thinking about before the attack? If your mind isn't working right no oe can comunnicate with you. So no communication, no awareness because your dazed, your thinking is off so your thought process is on the fritz..

Xemnas says in an above post that a human being needs a few vital things to be considered as such.
Communication
Awareness
Thought Process.
The irony of it is based on his criteria your for the most part eligible to be aborted or terminated or whatever even though you are fully grown.

As far as the meds working, you can wear a condom and still get herpes, you can be on the pill and still get pregnant, a guy can have a vasectomy and still become a father.. Nothing is a hundred percent even when procedure is followed to the tee. It still has a decent success rate and it would still cut down on the number of pregnancies.

The only instance where I think abortion is far and away unacceptable is when you have women using it as a form of birth control. If you are just irresponsible and unwilling to own up to your mistakes, that's your problem and you need to deal with it. A life should not suffer the consequences of your actions. This is one of those cases where I would suggest going through with the pregnancy and labor and giving the child up for adoption. There is no reason to kill the child, simply because you slept around and got knocked up. If there is a legit medical reason for it, I say abortion is a viable option for certain scenarios. Using it as a form of birth control however is where I'd say you transfer into the needless murdering of an unborn child.

What are you prepared to do against those who use it as a form of birth control? Will they face the same penalties that the Dennis Raders and Timothy McVeighs, or Sirhan Sirhans of the world face or a sort of slap on the wrist. Either way I think it will be a uphill battle to police on that basis because we have more rape victims then reported rapes, and the victims are known where as the rapist remains anonymous. Then there are people who endure separate and multiple rapes. How does a court determine if a woman who has 5 abortions (or any suspicious amounts) in a 3 year period hasn't been raped 5 times? A blanket band might make the most since or none at all.. You kinda gotta make a call..

 

[HBK-aholic]

No I am not. Lots of people agree with what I have said word for word, they are the silent majority but they are here at WZ and everywhere else online and in the globe.. That is not a point because I WAS NOT the one using that terminology, fury was. I agree with YOU.

Well then there was really no point arguing the point. I was talking to those who do use the term.

It might had even been wrong of him to use the term. An attempt on his end to confuse readers and arouse sympathy.

Which is exactly why I have a problem with the use of wrong terminology. People often use the term 'murder' and 'killing babies' because it's emotive, no one ever agrees with killing a baby. But the answers are different when you ask about 'abortion' or 'terminating a foetus'.

I think perhaps your just sitting on the fence then. I think maybe your a neutralist. Maybe its better to call your camp pro-mind your business. In that case mind your business when people with my views argue with those who have abortions. I am fine for my side because I have not had nor have I backed an abortion. But you have not had an abortion I presume yet you feel the need to join in solidarity with those that do?

You need to look up the 2 stances and see what I'm arguing is EXACTLY what the pro-choice movement is about. I'm saying women should be able to choose what they do with the body. I believe that true about most things. There isn't a movement which encourages abortion, I'd never do that.

And you're saying I've never had an abortion so I can't 'join in solidarity' with those who do? You can never get pregnant yet you're involved in the discussion. I'd say that was a big enough leap, personally.

I have seen MSNBC's Lock UP and their tours of the British penal system. Knowing now that your English I see why you are weak on capital punishment.. The people on deathrow are threats that need to be repelled or terminated. Your comparing a fetus, a soon to be baby, to some fucking baboon who ran up on somebody and used lethal force? Are you a fuckin hippie or sumthing?Even so assuming she does move outside of the law atleast their will be some recourse. NO NO NO. She can not have an abortion, me saving her from abortion probably would lead her to not even believe in it but if through some madness she does I will hold steady. Is that not a form of corruption though? Having principles one situation but then depending on personal relationship with those who don't share them deciding to ignore your own beliefs? That to me is soo hypocritical. But hey your British, you freed the jews from camps only to encourage them to destroy the Palestinians and practice 5he very prejudice in the British mandate that they had experienced in Germany.. Yeah thats classic British flip flopping. Britain, one of the most hypocritical countries on earth, in HISTORY. Woww now I see why we have a break down in communications. Different region, different mentality..

I love that first you insult my gender, now it's my country. You're an American male so everything else is beneath you, right? Stop being so pathetic. It has nothing to do with gender OR where I'm from.

As far as women's rights are concerned we have them here. They are equal to males, any further additions and males would then be inferior to women. We have reached the point in America where women's rights amounts to nothing more then a smoke screen for sexism and retribution against men for any past injustice that can be thought of. you know this to be so baby.

This has NOTHING to do about retribution against men. Guess what? If men were the ones to carry a child I'd still be pro-choice! I definitely wouldn't be telling them what they can and can't do with their body especially when I could never be in that same situation!

You probably love assholes hahaha. It is your body when there isn't another humanic entity attached to it. It is your body but if it was meant to be your body you simply would not have children through birth. You quite literally would lay an egg then a determination could be made if it would be incubated or not.

Ah if only it were that easy. Alas, as I said above, this has nothing to do with gender, and everything to do with rights. It just so happens females get pregnant - male, female, they should be allowed an abortion for the reasons I presented in my first post.

That list bit about me walking away, thats bitterness. Guys have it so easy but little ol' me has it hard. If I had gotten yo pregnant i would not walk away because im not a dead beat, if i raped you i could not simply walk away because there should then be a felony warrant for my arrest which will follow me EVERYWHERE..

No it's not biterness, it's a response to you being a complete idiot. And aw how cute, you think rape ends up with a warrant for your arrest. In a perfect world, maybe.

I am not sexist i am just tired of the cry baby act. If your gender began to fight for itself, speak loudly, and assert itself instead of being emotional and being treacherous to your fellow females you would not have so many social pressures and double standards on you. There are more women saying a rape victim is a ****e then men are. In this country more men would vote for a female president hen women. You're all backwards and confused half the time. classic girl quote "my head was spinning, i dont know!!"

No, we're not, you're just sexist. The fact you're denying it is laughable. If by 'backwards and confused' you mean we THINK ABOUT OUR DECISIONS, then yes, we are. We don't go into something all guns blazing without a second thought. Unlike a certain gender we know.

Aw wait, is that sexist?

Where is that number from, what year, what country, what source?

I believe the year was 2005, although it may have been somewhere close to that. They're British figures, from the BBC.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6313479.stm

And then there are other variables like breaking down on stand.

Seriously, what do you expect?

And then there is that pesky habbit of waiting and then the granddaddy screw up of them all, THE WASHING AWAY OF EVIDENCE in that first shower/bath post-rape.

Do you understand at all, why that's done? You can go through all your nice logic, but if you've just been raped you feel dirty, awful, you want to forget it ever happened and get every part of that person off of you. Women scrub at their skin for days, even though they're clean, just because they still feel him there. Does that hinder the prosecution? Of course it does. But you're so good at belittling their feelings that's all you see. It's not a 'pesky habit' you idiot. Why don't you get men to stop that 'pesky habit' of raping women? Damn I hope your wife/girlfriend/child is never raped.

I think thats effected the conviction rape. Yeah as always your emotions and feelings, which you have all too many period complicate things. If you think someone you know and love would switch up on you at all why do you have relationships? This skewed logic is always present is the thing that bothers me. The thing about family is they will support their own, the most amazing part is the vast majority will ALSO support their own EVEN WHEN THEY ARE THE ONE IN THE WRONG..

It comes from families ACTUALLY not believing them, or their minds being abused so much they believe THEY were in the wrong. I'm glad your family believed you, but not everyones does. Some attackers are very smart in how they abuse the mind just as much as the body. Especially if you know the attacker, as most rapes are.

And know it doesn't sound stupid to me it sounds like psychosis. No as a victim of abuse I tell you I never thought my mom for instance or grandma would never not take my side.

And that's great for you. Sadly you don't speak for all victims of sexual abuse. I wish you did, but it's not true.

The second I got on his trail I'd close in on him, hunt him down and handle that creep the only way I know how. Jealous much?

I'd do exactly the same thing if anyone hurt my kids...what am I jealous about?

As far as the court of law is concerned I going to explain to my daughter or even son how everything works and why its important that she or he be there and that the truth is not a bad thing. They are going to know that I will be right there and that I will not let anything happen to them. They are going to know that we need to be the good guys and tell what happened because he is a bad guy and we want to help others. I will explained to my daughter or son that they would be just like super heroes if they were honest. I will would not force them but explain to them fully the consequences to others if they did not bt I would tell them I am not going to punish them. I would also explain to them that in life being right has not always been good enough. Its not about being right it is about doing right.

Again, that's great for you. Not all people have that support base, or the will to do so - male OR female, both suffer in silence at abuse, so don't attempt telling me it's a female thing.

My children would early on understand that somethings people do to you are wrong and that they want to do harm. My daughters will be taught to defend themselves as much as the boys are. The girls will especially know that know one is to disrespect their virtue and that there is never an excuse for them to be abused. They will know that I will watch out for them until I am no longer in this world and that in order for me to keep them safe they are to tell me so that i can do that effectively. I do not care about England.. Most of us here are from the UNITED STATES..

LOL, you are so pathetic. You can't 'not care' about everything I say because I'm not from the US .

Someone will always be around to ask a stupid question. Why do you throw that up in my face if I have already told you I don't care what people are wearing? There are a lot of people who don't care what she wore too and they are very vocal about it. I think the women condemning other women because of some ingrained need to compete is what hurts you all as a whole socially. I know what to say to a man that says something stupid like that, usually when a woman blames the victim I am thrown off. I think that undermines the attempt of men to educate other men, don't you?

I'm not talking femle vs. male, I've talking victim vs. not victim. You don't care what they were wearing, and that's great, but the courts seem to, and you dismiss this as a reasons someone wouldn't want to go to the police. If I'd been out clubbing with my friends, had a couple of drinks, and had a dress on, and were raped on the way home, do you think I'd bother going to the police? Short dress AND alcohol? Clearly she asked for it. You can dismiss that as well, but that's how too many people think.

We all got to get a grip, its called snapping back into reality.. Everything living entity on this planet has a goal of defending itself. Self defense and self preservation is an innate priority. What enters your mind? You act like a zombie feasted on your brain for God's sake. What are you even thinking about before the attack? If your mind isn't working right no oe can comunnicate with you. So no communication, no awareness because your dazed, your thinking is off so your thought process is on the fritz..

Xemnas says in an above post that a human being needs a few vital things to be considered as such.
Communication
Awareness
Thought Process.
The irony of it is based on his criteria your for the most part eligible to be aborted or terminated or whatever even though you are fully grown.

I'm just laughing at you right now. This is, hands down, the most pathetic thing I've ever read on these forums.

As far as the meds working, you can wear a condom and still get herpes, you can be on the pill and still get pregnant, a guy can have a vasectomy and still become a father.. Nothing is a hundred percent even when procedure is followed to the tee. It still has a decent success rate and it would still cut down on the number of pregnancies.

Maybe so, and in most cases where the sex is consensual, I agree contraception should always be used. I dislike the use of abortion because someone didn't use birth control, but we can't simply make it illegal in some circumstances.

 

[One to Remember]

Which is exactly why I have a problem with the use of wrong terminology. People often use the term 'murder' and 'killing babies' because it's emotive, no one ever agrees with killing a baby.

I think sometimes thats just ignorance of grammar. I think abortion can be attacked without needing to pull on any heart strings. Thats how I prefer it. I think the use of murder and other charged words are just mistakes.

I'm saying women should be able to choose what they do with the body. I believe that true about most things. There isn't a movement which encourages abortion, I'd never do that.

I believe on its face thats the truth. But I believe blatant support for abortion would be quite unpopular. I believe that all this "her body her call" is no more then a stance using another stance as a proxy.

And you're saying I've never had an abortion so I can't 'join in solidarity' with those who do? You can never get pregnant yet you're involved in the discussion. I'd say that was a big enough leap, personally.

Yes. My major link is the fact that if I rape a woman, spend ten years with her planning the baby, or knock her up after a one nighter only to watch her vanish by morning, my legal recourse in regards to my would be off spring is viewed as exactly the same. In at least two of the above situations I am A victim... Because the vital contribute to the life has no say this is a man's issue. Because your stance runs contrary to your anatomical duties your claims of discrimination, imprisonment, and double standards are actualy null and void. If you aren't having babies that you haven't planned and you are not a rape victim how are your links here personal? Because of a hypothetical attack you might suffer?

I love that first you insult my gender, now it's my country. You're an American male so everything else is beneath you, right? Stop being so pathetic. It has nothing to do with gender OR where I'm from.

When watching the show the narrator said most killers would be paroled wihen a few years. The prisoners also had freedoms unseen in this country. Access to luxuries that boggled my mind and had guards more reminiscent of butlers. Your federal government had accused the man in custody in Scotland for blowing up that plane over Lockerbee yet even he was paroled. How bizarre. I see that there is tolerance for bloodshed in England. You all are numb to it, looking at what the Red Coats have done around the World I see why.....

This has NOTHING to do about retribution against men. Guess what? If men were the ones to carry a child I'd still be pro-choice! I definitely wouldn't be telling them what they can and can't do with their body especially when I could never be in that same situation!

If men were the ones that carried children? But they aren't. I can't think of one life farm where thats the case. Eitherway I would still be anti-abortion. The foundation of the women's movement is having contemporary women do anything contrary to what in years past was deemed either a "woman's role" or woman's work.." If ones body was sovereign one could not be busted for inserting drugs into themselves or institutionalized for self mutilation..

No it's not biterness, it's a response to you being a complete idiot. And aw how cute, you think rape ends up with a warrant for your arrest. In a perfect world, maybe.

Why is it that whenever the system might not work you just say fuckit all together? Do you know how idiotic that looks to an observer?!
If you claimed something happened to you but you have not done anything to remedy the situation or even report it to the people whos job it is to do something!! a rational person would come to the conclusion that perhaps that person is lying about their experience. But then instead of promoting logic you'll chime in and say "be sensitive, their mind is in disarray, the court should wait 9 years until she calms down then start proceedings with no traditional farms of evidence.." For someone who makes an insanity defense or w/e yo call it your asking for alot in court..

And if you can just drop the rape issue and bury it in yourself just because the police [who you never talked to] routinely dismiss it [even though they actually weren't informed anything happened] how come I can't just say that a lot of women aren't raped at all since i see know prove or even allegations?

As far as the warrant is concerned I bump into the law frequently enough for it to hurt me. As far as its effectiveness I can testify to you right now that of the men i know who were accused of rape by someone smart enough to inform police, NOT ONE WON THEIR CASE. Of the girls who just told people around town and not the authorities, their accusers remained unincarcerated and unscathed. I have seen that with my own eyes. I know court works and a hell of a lot more times then not IN THIS STATE.

No, we're not, you're just sexist. The fact you're denying it is laughable. If by 'backwards and confused' you mean we THINK ABOUT OUR DECISIONS, then yes, we are. We don't go into something all guns blazing without a second thought. Unlike a certain gender we know.

You don't think about anything. You think too much or not at all. Thats why your gender is always the victim of psychological warfare pre-attack and post-attack. We have already demonstrated that with the whole shower of shame nonsense to cleanse the dirtiness.

"Cleanse the dirtiness".. omg, save that damn symbolic bullshit for a piece of literature hahaha.

Without a second thought?! Thats howwe stove off attack. That little hesitation that your gender demonstrates is the antithesis to our "guns blazing without a second thought." That legendary hesitation has played a factor in the rapes you speak out against. You continue to say that we just don't get it and blah blah blah about the mental state of womenafter the trauma. I say it dos not matter that I don't get it because that type of thought process locks up the legal system. More importantly that thought process does not have a proven track record. MOST IMPORTANTLY it has been proven to be a means to an end..

I believe the year was 2005, although it may have been somewhere close to that. They're British figures, from the BBC.

Those numbers are startling but i dont understand why you would not quote U.S. numbers in unison. You don't think it could at all be different here?

but if you've just been raped you feel dirty, awful, you want to forget it ever happened and get every part of that person off of you.

word. true that. indeed..

Does that hinder the prosecution? Of course it does. But you're so good at belittling their feelings that's all you see. It's not a 'pesky habit' you idiot. Why don't you get men to stop that 'pesky habit' of raping women? Damn I hope your wife/girlfriend/child is never raped.

Belittling?! Look this is what is going on, I have a report of a rape, confidence in her story, and a suspect at large. I aint gonna crack wise on the girl but we must get down to business IMMEDIATELY. effective response is to get a rape kit done, get a description, and then attempt to get that DNA in the system. We then put out an APB on the description she has given us and attempt to scour the area. YOU want ME to coddle her while the suspect is at large then with her not giving details and her having showered want me to put a herculean effort into find the perp as swiftly and successfully as i could with a woman who had preserved the evidence and talked at once?

To compound the situation further with the rape already being committed you want me to magically find a way to unrape her. And then there is the issue of not having the DNA to cross run into a data base then her refusal to testify even if we get the perp even through those hurdles. At that to the fact that he may be moving with increasing speed yet remained undetected because she waited awile. He may had even ben in prison and we couldn't make the connection because of no forensics to feed into the computer. The rape has already happened the next course of action is to catch the guy and to prevent it from happening to others. YOU don't get that. From your perspective I am "being a meanie.."

It's not a 'pesky habit' you idiot. Why don't you get men to stop that 'pesky habit' of raping women? Damn I hope your wife/girlfriend/child is never raped.

Okay because I am not there when it happens why don't you stop getting raped? And yes I can say that because if the guy was in front of us you probably wouldn't even point him out on request.
Why don't you let police do their jobs with fewer obstacles and twists..?

Why didn't I a third party not do anything to stop a rape which involves two people who I can't even see? Are you reading what you write?

And that's great for you. Sadly you don't speak for all victims of sexual abuse. I wish you did, but it's not true.

With all the mental trauma you've pointing out their is obviously some damage to the mind and decision making process. I would argue after all you've said that a rape victim might not even have the competence to make a medical decision. That would be a way to veto her abortion choice and most other decisions until her mind recuperated.

Also there are plenty of reports of women raping women too.. Men aren't even the only victimizers of women either.. You have no take on that?

Damn I hope your wife/girlfriend/child is never raped.

I hope no one is raped ever. That includes my sons as well as even me. I would fight to the death to prevent such an attack on myself and if someone got my wife or kids its only because I can't be everywhere 24/7. Help never can be but it often tries to come close. I would also explain that to my children.
Do you believe I would even set by as you were raped too?

Maybe so, and in most cases where the sex is consensual, I agree contraception should always be used. I dislike the use of abortion because someone didn't use birth control, but we can't simply make it illegal in some circumstances.

Do you at least have any legal or moral objections at all to abortion in some situations? You have shown a displeasure for using it as birth control so what would you do to those who do that? How late can a woman have an abortion? Are youto stubborn to condemn it for fear of losing ground outright in the abortion debate?