Fury's Got Issues: #2, Abortion

[Furyof5]

In a follow up from the last issue, which was Drug Legalization, I ask this next question about another controversial and polarizing topic that is discussed rather frequently in America.

Should Abortion Be Legal?

Now like the other issue I will analyse both sides and it will be up to you, the reader, to decide.

Pro Choice Side:

Abortion should be legal because a woman has a right to choose whether or not she wants to have a child. If a woman so chooses she should be allowed to terminate the baby.

One such reason is she might not be ready for a child. She may have been having sex and a condom broke and she got pregnant. She may be a teenager and not have a job. Shes not ready to have a child is she?

Another reason can be rape. A man raped a woman and now his child is growing inside of her. She doesnt want to give birth to the mans child, so should she?

What about incest? If she has sex with her brother or close relative and gets pregnant the child could be born with a negative mutation, such as ******ation. She may also not want to have the child as her life may be ruined for having a child with her family member, so why should she have this child?

The child is going to have a disease which makes them have a short lifespan. They may only live to 5. She doesnt want the child to have such a short life, so should she have the child?

What if the child is going to be born with autism or ******ation? She want to spare the child their life of tribulation, so why should she have to have the child?

Giving birth may kill the mother. A woman should have to die so her child may live does she? That doesnt seem fair, does it?

Then of course there is the Pro Life side.

If you are going to have sex you should be ready to have a child. If you get pregnant it is now your responsibility to take care of that child, if not there is always adoption.

Life has been said by religions and some doctors to begin at conception, ending the life in the womb is tantamount to murder. Even if it does not begin in the womb you are still preventing it from living, which is in essence killing them. Should you kill your child because you are too irresponsible to take care of it or even give it up fir adoption?

If you have a child out of incest isnt that your fault? Is it the babies fault that you fucked you brother/ close family member?

What if its born with a mutation or mental disorder? Well why should you say that they cant live simply because it would be more difficult for them to live or for you to take care of them? If you dont have the recourses or dont want to deal with them give them up for adoption or send them to a home.

If the child is born and only has a short lifespan why should you abort them? Isnt living a single day better than never having lived at all? What if on the last day of the last year of your childs life a cure to their illness becomes available? Aborting them would have been for nothing.

The mother being raped is somehow justification? Why? How is it the babies fault that you were raped? What will king them achieve? Two wrongs dont make a right. If you still dont want him after birth then theirs adoption. There are many families with baren women whom would love your child just as their own. Killing them before their first breath is wrong and its done out of nothing but selfishness.

If the mother "may" die during birth to according to a doctor that doesnt mean ending their life is the appropriate course of action. What if the doctor was wrong and you live? Arent there othere forms of birth you can take such as a C section? Even if there is no course of action and you will die why should your child die? You might not live but maybe they will, maybe they will grow up and become someone important that brought something important to the world. If the child were already born and you had a choice of yourself or them to die wouldnt you pick yourself? So why is it different when they havent been born yet?

Also if there is certainty they will die during birth is that still justification for killing them yourself?

So what do you think? Should abortion be legal? Or should it be outlawed?

 

[The Raven's Epitaph]

I think Abortion should be legal. A Mother should have the choice whether they do or do not want the baby, and so forth, should be allowed to have an Abortion. I'm going to solidly give two sides of the argument though.

For:
A Mother should be allowed to have an Abortion and in some cases, it's wrong when they're denied and refused the option. What if the woman has been raped and has become pregnant? Surely that isn't right. Some dirty, disrespectful ******** comes and rapes a poor, innocent woman just because he's feeling horny and gets her pregnant, but she's still by law got to give birth to that son of a bitch's offspring? That's where I draw the line and my opinion is that Abortion should be legalised. Not only for that matter, just because you should have your own choice; not having some government scumbag make up some bullshit rule and say otherwise. Of course, there's always the option of adoption after birth...or leaving it on the side of the road like the ol' Greek's used to.

Against:
You could also argue, religiously; which is what alot of people's views actually are on Abortion. In Catholisism, it is strongly frowned upon to even mention Abortion. I'm not one for religion itself, but what I will say it that I don't have a problem with anybody's religion or their own beliefs. That is entirely up to them. Here's my against argument though; I can see why there's so much disregard towards Abortion, but give the child a chance maybe? I'm trying not to contradict myself too much, but you can argue that no matter what, the child itself should be allowed a life, even if it isn't with it's original Mother.

So what do you think? Should abortion be legal? Or should it be outlawed?

I think Abortion should be legalised.

Y'know, I wasn't too sure about these "Fury has issues" thread's at first because you started off with the Drugs legalisation topic, which is something I strongly disagree with, but I can relate positively and firmly with this topic.

Good threads, keep em' up, buddy.

 

[El Rev sXe]

Furyof5 you forgot one case scenario, if abortion is illegal there will be always women that will take the procedure. Being said that, there is a huge possibilty that the woman that wants the procedure could die. Now with all the pro-life arguments not only you would be ending the non-born child's life, but also the mother's life.

Anyway, as many things, abortion should be a personal choice. It doesn't matter that much if you support or you are against abortion, you don't have the right to tell someone that she/he is a muderer. I mean, if you done the abortion, there is a 50-50 chance that you're going to have some serious mental scars about it.I mean, if a teenager is raped, and she decides to have an abortion, could you tell her that she is a muderer!? I seriously hope not...

IMO, there is only one way to be against the abortion, you are a religious person. I'm not trying to bash anyone, however as always the extremist religious person says it's immoral, it's against the will of god etc..

As I said before, and I insist, it is a personal choice that absolutely no one and I mean no one will ever understand completely your choice. It's not like using drugs, and many people can relate to that. Having an abortion is not something to criticize or understand but to respect. As everything that revolves around the sex/sexuality, it's a PERSONAL CHOICE and no one has to condemn. This are the consequences of religious prejudices and taboos imposed by society.

 

[Hazardous]

I couldn't post in the Drug thread, as I couldn't take just one side of the issue. This on the other hand, I can.

I say it is the Woman's choice. I have knocked up 3 different women (Condom's are for *****es.. literally), and only have 1 child, because 1 decided she didn't want it. The other was just an idiot and got X-rays, not knowing she was preggo. But anyway, I know that religious people have their stance on it, and are not willing to budge. I understand that. But I am more open to options. I think a woman has every right to do anything she wants with her body. Whether it be tattoos, piercings, or this. The doctors tell them the risks, and side effects they may have after, so it's not like they don't know. If they are willing to live with that, then who are you to tell them that they are not allowed to do it? It's not your kid, it's theirs.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Abortion is legal in the United States and that's the way it should remain. In an ideal world, there'd be no need for abortions but we don't live in an ideal world. What amazes me the most about the "Pro-Life" movement is that they seem to care so much about a child actually being born but seem to care less about what happens after it is born.

The religious right believe that it's all in God's hands. I do believe in God and I could come up with a reasonable argument against just about any sort of religious POV. I could say that if abortion isn't God's will, then why would he allow doctors to have the kind of knowledge in order to perform the procedure? Of course, they'd dismiss that argument outright simply because it's not what they personally believe in rather than actually being able to prove me wrong. The danger of using religious justification as reason for abortions to be illegal is that nobody can definitively and legitimately prove what "God's will" actually is.

Aside from that, we're supposed to have separation of church and state in this country. Rendering something illegal based on religious belief violates that and there are simply too many lawmakers, particularly those that have worked within the legal system for most of their lives, that aren't going to go that far. Everytime the attempt has been made, it's failed.

I think it's arrogance to tell a woman that she shouldn't have a child. The rape issue was mentioned and most people don't have the slightest shred of an idea what rape can do to a woman physically and mentally. I've been unfortunate enough in my life to have had a friend raped. Fortunately, it didn't result in pregnancy but she still suffers from the physical and psychological ramifications of that night to this day even though it's been more than 10 years since it happened. She has flashbacks at times, she suffers from PTSD and she suffered kidney damage in the attack and has to undergo dialysis several times a year and that's probably only going to get worse as she ages.

Besides, making abortions illegal isn't going to stop them from taking place. Women will take matters into their own hands or they'll wind up going to some quack, back alley doctor like they used to in the days before Roe v. Wade.

 

[One to Remember]

Should Abortion Be Legal?

Now like the other issue I will analyse both sides and it will be up to you, the reader, to decide.

Pro Choice Side:

Abortion should be legal because a woman has a right to choose whether or not she wants to have a child. If a woman so chooses she should be allowed to terminate the baby.

Okay if thats one of your justifications then I don't see why you added anything subsequent to it, if its a woman's right then nuff said aye?

One such reason is she might not be ready for a child. She may have been having sex and a condom broke and she got pregnant. She may be a teenager and not have a job. Shes not ready to have a child is she?

I don't have a job and I AM LAZY and i am a bendge eating hog but if I got a little me runnin' around you better believe I'm gonna get him sum food or give him 3 quarters of my plate. People aren't ready for a whole bunch of things. Thats like a person im not ready to learn how to swim yet but i still think the Navy should accept me in its ranks. You was ready to get boned, be ready to run a home.
As far as birth control or condom failures thats too bad. You might be able to consult an attorney on that issue with the former and MAYBE the latter but abstinence is the only sure way to avoid having a kid. Safe sex is sometimes as dangerous as sex sex..

Another reason can be rape. A man raped a woman and now his child is growing inside of her. She doesnt want to give birth to the mans child, so should she?

Again the vast majority of abortions have no rape component. Its an attempt to take translated a minority issue into a viable hypothetical dynamic for a majority. The penalty for rape is probation or 15-30 years in prison.. Furthermore its sometimes a herculean effort to even prove rape. A good deal of women have an issue with the father of a baby growing inside of them, an even more disturbing amount of them don't even know the child's lineage. Bloodline-black balling has no legal standing in civilized societies.. It has no scientific merits either. The son can not be held accountable for the sins of the father. With historical controversies in America still hotly debated til this day we can not afford to endorse a logic of that nature which is the epitome of a Pandora's box..
She also has the option of the plan b/morning after pill. Its not like he held her captive in a dungeon days after. Either way that's out of the kids control and everyone has a rapist in their lineage if they investigate hard enough.

its as stupid as Marcus Garvey saying kill all the red bones too because we all know were that light skin came from...

What about incest? If she has sex with her brother or close relative and gets pregnant the child could be born with a negative mutation, such as ******ation. She may also not want to have the child as her life may be ruined for having a child with her family member, so why should she have this child?

What about incest? Depending on what state you live in ad the situation you and/or the other party face criminal charges not the offspring. Are FDR's children ******ed since he and Eleanor had the same grandparents..? All this incest=mutant babies business has been largely disprovin. Incest kills diversity but the child suffers because you were of bad genetic stock not because your brother is ur uncle. Non incest relationships dilute what YOUR FAMILY ALREADY HAD which was poor genetics..

How is her life ruined? Who can prove were the kid came from and why would she tell if itmeant that much to her? There are women out here with 8 kids all colors of the rainbow who have gone their entire lives without being asked where those kids came from or were is the dad at.. She can avoid the stigma if she so chooses.. promiscuity vs incest, whichever you think will make you less of a pariah..

The child is going to have a disease which makes them have a short lifespan. They may only live to 5. She doesnt want the child to have such a short life, so should she have the child?

there are people far worse off that lived for decades yet there is no legal mechanism to set them to pasture.. Mercy killings usually only fly with animals.. And how is living ive years a bad thing? If you were simply a hundred you might prey for 5 years, if you had cancer and they said five years you'd be happier then if they said 5 months.. that makes no sense how half a decade more of life is good but just a half period is bad.. Time is time, all particles of sand in the hour glass are precious and equal in value.

What if the child is going to be born with autism or ******ation? She want to spare the child their life of tribulation, so why should she have to have the child?

Autism is a blanket term and the type or degree is not evident in utero. Stephen HAWKING BEING SHAPED CRAZIER THEN A CRAZY STRAW is tribulation.. No one could end his life on the premise that "hey he was shaped like a pretzel so i put him out of his misery" though.. Our troops cant just blast injured comrades on the field because they just sustained injuries from an IED blast and they not only are now missing their legs but they are blinded and brain damaged.. At the same time i do agree that if an argument can be made that the child has no viability and substance abuse was not at play it might be best to shut it down. this isn't really so much approval but more so the question of personhood.

Giving birth may kill the mother. A woman should have to die so her child may live does she? That doesnt seem fair, does it?

I'll entertain that. It depends on what the doctor says. There is always that chance of dying, people have died at the dentist. We need to get some more info, statistics, expert opinions, etc. Usually though I am gonna say the need to try their best to keep them both safe in unison.

If you are going to have sex you should be ready to have a child. If you get pregnant it is now your responsibility to take care of that child, if not there is always adoption.

that sounds like reaping what you sow or accountability. How is accountability a stance and not simply a way of life? hOW can you make responsibility partisan is my question to you?

Life has been said by religions and some doctors to begin at conception, ending the life in the womb is tantamount to murder. Even if it does not begin in the womb you are still preventing it from living, which is in essence killing them. Should you kill your child because you are too irresponsible to take care of it or even give it up fir adoption?

Secular societies do not allow murder. All killings at some point subject to be regarded as murder in states with laws and adequate jurisdictional enforcement. You don't have to be religious at all to approve of abortion. You implying that is essentially setting up a straw man. Murder is a legal concept not a religious one.

If you have a child out of incest isnt that your fault? Is it the babies fault that you fucked you brother/ close family member?

A scientist isn't going to care, a religious person has no jurisdiction, and half the states wont collar you.. Its moot. Nastiness does offset the point that its moot.

What if its born with a mutation or mental disorder? Well why should you say that they cant live simply because it would be more difficult for them to live or for you to take care of them? If you dont have the recourses or dont want to deal with them give them up for adoption or send them to a home.

Its a dog eat dog world no matter where you live. Their responsibilities are only for 18 years in America. There may not be a program to help them or it might be the local jail or prison feeling that void. Add to the fact they have no line of defense against attack. This is what i mean by no viability.

If the child is born and only has a short lifespan why should you abort them? Isnt living a single day better than never having lived at all? What if on the last day of the last year of your childs life a cure to their illness becomes available? Aborting them would have been for nothing.

a single day as an infant means nothing. It will not accomplish it, however the child's right to that day is inalienable. One is not better then the other actually.

Two wrongs dont make a right. If you still dont want him after birth then theirs adoption. There are many families with baren women whom would love your child just as their own. Killing them before their first breath is wrong and its done out of nothing but selfishness.

They don't always get adopted ever. Some babies are valued more then others. The only babies being adopted need to be ones who have dead parents or dangerous parents. The orphanage does not need to be hers and his' reset button. I do not approve of adoption I must declare.

If the mother "may" die during birth to according to a doctor that doesnt mean ending their life is the appropriate course of action. What if the doctor was wrong and you live? Arent there othere forms of birth you can take such as a C section? Even if there is no course of action and you will die why should your child die? You might not live but maybe they will, maybe they will grow up and become someone important that brought something important to the world. If the child were already born and you had a choice of yourself or them to die wouldnt you pick yourself? So why is it different when they havent been born yet?

this is the only moment were a kid owes the woman something. Its her job to hold that baby because nature made it so however perhaps the fetus also has a responsibility to not create complications. No implanting in the fallopian tubes, no getting strangled by your own cord, etc. If there was no leaning towards abortion prior to complications becoming evident I tend to favor the mother.

So what do you think? Should abortion be legal? Or should it be outlawed?

I do not approve of abortion, I hope to see it outlawed and a woman's right is to shut up about it being a man's world for so long..

Aside from that, we're supposed to have separation of church and state in this country. Rendering something illegal based on religious belief violates that and there are simply too many lawmakers, particularly those that have worked within the legal system for most of their lives, that aren't going to go that far. Everytime the attempt has been made, it's failed.

Why don't you prove there is a need for a pro lifer to need religion as a crutch before you bring up separation of church and state. A dog (debatabley) has no damn soul and you still can't kill them for no damn reason and thats not a religious based law..
Your debating with fallacies here.

I think it's arrogance to tell a woman that she shouldn't have a child. The rape issue was mentioned and most people don't have the slightest shred of an idea what rape can do to a woman physically and mentally. I've been unfortunate enough in my life to have had a friend raped. Fortunately, it didn't result in pregnancy but she still suffers from the physical and psychological ramifications of that night to this day even though it's been more than 10 years since it happened. She has flashbacks at times, she suffers from PTSD and she suffered kidney damage in the attack and has to undergo dialysis several times a year and that's probably only going to get worse as she ages.

Who the bloody hell are youto bring up arrogance? Why is a pro lifers view always conflated with gnder conquest? The people who are pro choice and pro abortion are more concerned with setting old scores with males then coming to term with the fact that nature choose them to carry babies, nature made us different in bad ways and the same in good ways. The vast majority of sexual abuse by a parent is don by the mother, the child's gender is irrelevent.. You act like its your problem.. "unfortunately you have a friend" that was raped? Its unfortunate that she was violated not that you socialize with her.. I would care if a judge unleased on her attacker, I will however object to her tryingto take what shes incapable of doing to my gender and making kids bear the brunt. That I will not have..

 

[Hazardous]

Ohh where to start where to start. I see we have another "Women cant do it because it's wrong" without giving any reason's WHY it's wrong, type of people.

Okay if thats one of your justifications then I don't see why you added anything subsequent to it, if its a woman's right then nuff said aye?

No because adding in why you think that is what makes the post MAKE SENSE.

I don't have a job and I AM LAZY and i am a bendge eating hog but if I got a little me runnin' around you better believe I'm gonna get him sum food or give him 3 quarters of my plate.

That's good to hear. You're doing good so far. That's the way a parent should be. If I have no job, and was short on food, my kid would eat first as well.

People aren't ready for a whole bunch of things. Thats like a person im not ready to learn how to swim yet but i still think the Navy should accept me in its ranks.

Funny story.. You don't need to know how to join. There were 2 or 3 Navy boys in my platoon who didn't know how. Learned how at basic.

You was ready to get boned, be ready to run a home.

While that is partly true, Abortion is the option for the people who want to use it. Like it or not it is around, and always will be one way or another. Drugs are illegal, people still do them.

As far as birth control or condom failures thats too bad. You might be able to consult an attorney on that issue with the former and MAYBE the latter but abstinence is the only sure way to avoid having a kid. Safe sex is sometimes as dangerous as sex sex..

You're either a virgin, or really religious. See, I'm a fan of sex. Lots and lots of it too. I'll do 2, maybe 3 girls a week. No intent on calling them, or seeing them again. If they get pregnant, sure I'll help out if they ask, some just ask for $50 to go get it terminated. It's her body, she has every right to do whatever the fuck she pleases with it.

Again the vast majority of abortions have no rape component. Its an attempt to take translated a minority issue into a viable hypothetical dynamic for a majority.

You've still yet to mention your hate-on about it at this point..

The penalty for rape is probation or 15-30 years in prison..

Depends where you live, and how much evidence was used to convict. Seen some get out after 5 years.

F

urthermore its sometimes a herculean effort to even prove rape. A good deal of women have an issue with the father of a baby growing inside of them, an even more disturbing amount of them don't even know the child's lineage. Bloodline-black balling has no legal standing in civilized societies.. It has no scientific merits either. The son can not be held accountable for the sins of the father. With historical controversies in America still hotly debated til this day we can not afford to endorse a logic of that nature which is the epitome of a Pandora's box..

The fuck are you going off about now? God I fell asleep reading "sins of the father zzzzzz"

She also has the option of the plan b/morning after pill. Its not like he held her captive in a dungeon days after. Either way that's out of the kids control and everyone has a rapist in their lineage if they investigate hard enough.

You know some women don't find out till they are like 3 months right? We didn't find out about my daughter till my ex was 4 months preggo already.

its as stupid as Marcus Garvey saying kill all the red bones too because we all know were that light skin came from...

And this is relevant.. ?

What about incest? Depending on what state you live in ad the situation you and/or the other party face criminal charges not the offspring. Are FDR's children ******ed since he and Eleanor had the same grandparents..? All this incest=mutant babies business has been largely disprovin. Incest kills diversity but the child suffers because you were of bad genetic stock not because your brother is ur uncle. Non incest relationships dilute what YOUR FAMILY ALREADY HAD which was poor genetics..

I think this was brought up more as in.. WHAT IF HER FATHER RAPED HER AND SHE GOT PREGNANT.. WHY WOULD SHE WANT TO KEEP IT? God you're thick. Still yet to give you hate reasons too..

How is her life ruined?

You're an idiot.

Who can prove were the kid came from

So every woman is a **** now? What if she's NOT a ****? Oh and ever herd of DNA tests?

and why would she tell if itmeant that much to her? There are women out here with 8 kids all colors of the rainbow who have gone their entire lives without being asked where those kids came from or were is the dad at.. She can avoid the stigma if she so chooses.. promiscuity vs incest, whichever you think will make you less of a pariah..

Or there's the abortion option.

there are people far worse off that lived for decades yet there is no legal mechanism to set them to pasture.. Mercy killings usually only fly with animals.. And how is living ive years a bad thing? If you were simply a hundred you might prey for 5 years, if you had cancer and they said five years you'd be happier then if they said 5 months.. that makes no sense how half a decade more of life is good but just a half period is bad.. Time is time, all particles of sand in the hour glass are precious and equal in value.

What are you on! you go off on random rabbles that don't really have much to do with ABORTION at all.

Autism is a blanket term and the type or degree is not evident in utero. Stephen HAWKING BEING SHAPED CRAZIER THEN A CRAZY STRAW is tribulation.. No one could end his life on the premise that "hey he was shaped like a pretzel so i put him out of his misery" though.. Our troops cant just blast injured comrades on the field because they just sustained injuries from an IED blast and they not only are now missing their legs but they are blinded and brain damaged.. At the same time i do agree that if an argument can be made that the child has no viability and substance abuse was not at play it might be best to shut it down. this isn't really so much approval but more so the question of personhood.

Well if they just aborted, then this wouldn't be an issue.

I'll entertain that. It depends on what the doctor says. There is always that chance of dying, people have died at the dentist. We need to get some more info, statistics, expert opinions, etc. Usually though I am gonna say the need to try their best to keep them both safe in unison.

Again, this is the mothers call. Not yours.

Secular societies do not allow murder. All killings at some point subject to be regarded as murder in states with laws and adequate jurisdictional enforcement. You don't have to be religious at all to approve of abortion. You implying that is essentially setting up a straw man. Murder is a legal concept not a religious one.

Only if you see abortion as murder. If you don't then there is no issue. Case closed.

Its a dog eat dog world no matter where you live. Their responsibilities are only for 18 years in America. There may not be a program to help them or it might be the local jail or prison feeling that void. Add to the fact they have no line of defense against attack. This is what i mean by no viability.

Wow, someone has some abandonment issues.. Should try smiling sometimes.. Turn off the Linkin Park, and play some happy music.

a single day as an infant means nothing. It will not accomplish it, however the child's right to that day is inalienable. One is not better then the other actually.

This also means nothing if you see the child's life starting the day it's born. So aborting (which you can only do up till the third trimester I think.. May be wrong) would not count as the child living to some.

They don't always get adopted ever. Some babies are valued more then others. The only babies being adopted need to be ones who have dead parents or dangerous parents. The orphanage does not need to be hers and his' reset button. I do not approve of adoption I must declare.

That's fine, But I do. And if you're going to bash people for that, be prepared for me to do the same to you.

this is the only moment were a kid owes the woman something. Its her job to hold that baby because nature made it so however perhaps the fetus also has a responsibility to not create complications. No implanting in the fallopian tubes, no getting strangled by your own cord, etc. If there was no leaning towards abortion prior to complications becoming evident I tend to favor the mother.

I always favor the mother. It's their call no matter what. This is the time when men should know their roles and shut their mouths.

I do not approve of abortion,

Still yet to say WHY though.

I hope to see it outlawed and a woman's right is to shut up about it being a man's world for so long..

Actually a Woman has al lthe same rights as you. Sorry cupcake. Again, it's legal, because even if.. IF they outlaw it in the states, it will still be legal here in the Great White North. Also women will do it anyway, nothing will stop it.

Why don't you prove there is a need for a pro lifer to need religion as a crutch before you bring up separation of church and state.

There should be a separation of church and state(/province). There is no reason Religion should be a driving factor in the way Laws are passed. This goes for gay marriage also.

A dog (debatabley) has no damn soul and you still can't kill them for no damn reason and thats not a religious based law..

Dog's are not people though. And depending on where you are, yes you can kill them.

Who the bloody hell are youto bring up arrogance?

Same goes to you.

Why is a pro lifers view always conflated with gnder conquest?

Not always. I'm a man, and I still support the woman's right to choose.

The people who are pro choice and pro abortion are more concerned with setting old scores with males then coming to term with the fact that nature choose them to carry babies, nature made us different in bad ways and the same in good ways.

And MAN made the option to say "fuck you nature!" You're just going to have to live with that.

The vast majority of sexual abuse by a parent is don by the mother

I'd like to see figures on this.

I would care if a judge unleased on her attacker, I will however object to her tryingto take what shes incapable of doing to my gender and making kids bear the brunt. That I will not have..

This is the last time I will say it.. HER KID, HER CHOICE. You don't get a say in it. Sorry. What are you going to do if you knocked up a chick and she said she was going to get it aborted? Bore her to death with rants? Beat her and tie her in your basement? The fact of the matter is there is not a DAMN thing you CAN do about it. If a woman wants one done, she's going to get it. Period.

 

[El Rev sXe]

What about incest? Depending on what state you live in ad the situation you and/or the other party face criminal charges not the offspring. Are FDR's children ******ed since he and Eleanor had the same grandparents..? All this incest=mutant babies business has been largely disprovin. Incest kills diversity but the child suffers because you were of bad genetic stock not because your brother is ur uncle. Non incest relationships dilute what YOUR FAMILY ALREADY HAD which was poor genetics..

What? Where did you get that information? I mean, it's in fact well know that incest have serious consequences in the new born baby. In fact you just need to take a look at the nature. In order to get the pedigree (not Trip's move) you have to procreate the dog with his/her parent. Now it is proven that it has slow degenerative genetic diseases. Btw, it seems that you support incest, obviously I'm wrong but it seems that you defend it.

How is her life ruined? Who can prove were the kid came from and why would she tell if itmeant that much to her? There are women out here with 8 kids all colors of the rainbow who have gone their entire lives without being asked where those kids came from or were is the dad at.. She can avoid the stigma if she so chooses.. promiscuity vs incest, whichever you think will make you less of a pariah..

Again, what? How her life is ruined? Haven't you thought about all the traumas? It has been shown to be one of the most extreme forms of childhood trauma, a trauma that often does serious and long-term psychological damage, especially in the case of parental incest.

there are people far worse off that lived for decades yet there is no legal mechanism to set them to pasture.. Mercy killings usually only fly with animals.. And how is living ive years a bad thing? If you were simply a hundred you might prey for 5 years, if you had cancer and they said five years you'd be happier then if they said 5 months.. that makes no sense how half a decade more of life is good but just a half period is bad.. Time is time, all particles of sand in the hour glass are precious and equal in value.

I don't understand what are you talking about. Can you please explain yourself?

Autism is a blanket term and the type or degree is not evident in utero. Stephen HAWKING BEING SHAPED CRAZIER THEN A CRAZY STRAW is tribulation.. No one could end his life on the premise that "hey he was shaped like a pretzel so i put him out of his misery" though.. Our troops cant just blast injured comrades on the field because they just sustained injuries from an IED blast and they not only are now missing their legs but they are blinded and brain damaged.. At the same time i do agree that if an argument can be made that the child has no viability and substance abuse was not at play it might be best to shut it down. this isn't really so much approval but more so the question of personhood.

Not everyone can have the strenght of having such a big burden under their shoulders. I know too bad for them, but unfortunately there are assholes out there that abandon their children, or even worse kill them.

Secular societies do not allow murder. All killings at some point subject to be regarded as murder in states with laws and adequate jurisdictional enforcement. You don't have to be religious at all to approve of abortion. You implying that is essentially setting up a straw man. Murder is a legal concept not a religious one.

Very debatable. Not always murder was condemned by law. Christianity gave us the basis of some values (don't kill, don't steal etc...) and THEN we adopted it and therefore becoming a legal concept. Now, abortion is murder right? I'm sorry but I do not share at all that conservative view. It's just one side of the story. It's very easy to accuse someone of doing the "wrong" thing.

They don't always get adopted ever. Some babies are valued more then others. The only babies being adopted need to be ones who have dead parents or dangerous parents. The orphanage does not need to be hers and his' reset button. I do not approve of adoption I must declare.

I agree to some extend. Not everyone gets adopted, and sometimes those children are abused.

this is the only moment were a kid owes the woman something. Its her job to hold that baby because nature made it so however perhaps the fetus also has a responsibility to not create complications. No implanting in the fallopian tubes, no getting strangled by your own cord, etc. If there was no leaning towards abortion prior to complications becoming evident I tend to favor the mother.

As I said before, not everyone wants to be a father/mother. Nature didn't made rape, it's a human defect. Those assholes made that choice, it isn't his "nature". Jackass.

Who the bloody hell are youto bring up arrogance? Why is a pro lifers view always conflated with gnder conquest? The people who are pro choice and pro abortion are more concerned with setting old scores with males then coming to term with the fact that nature choose them to carry babies, nature made us different in bad ways and the same in good ways. The vast majority of sexual abuse by a parent is don by the mother, the child's gender is irrelevent.. You act like its your problem.. "unfortunately you have a friend" that was raped? Its unfortunate that she was violated not that you socialize with her.. I would care if a judge unleased on her attacker, I will however object to her tryingto take what shes incapable of doing to my gender and making kids bear the brunt. That I will not have..

No no no no no, you are the fucking arrogant that you think that you can tell someone what to do or don't do with her/his life. Everything involving sex it's a PERSONAL CHOICE. You are no one to say what is wrong and what is right.

 

[Furyof5]

Im happy to see that this has taken off now, at least there seems to be a sort of debate going on, which is always a good thing.

I would normally address someone but I think Ill state my views on the issue myself so that people may know where I stand or perhaps debate me on it.

I am Pro Life. I am strongly against abortion. My reason being is that I view it as more or less murder, as it is the killing of innocent lives. Now this isnt simply from a religious perspective, but from any perspective. It is the termination of a life and/or prevention of its life.

I dont think there is a single justifiable reason for abortion. I think it should be outlawed. Its not simply about choice and someones body, once you get pregnant you have someone else's body and life inside of you. People cite Roe v Wade, but they dont even realize Roe changed her position since then and has been seen recently protesting against abortion.

I think its should be outlawed for the same reason murder is outlawed. Why can a woman have her own child killed inside of her but yet its wrong to kill it once its born(some people, such as Obama have authorized or believe in post birth abortions, but this is still flat out murder)?

Of course many will disagree, if they didnt this wouldnt be a controversial issue or an issue at all.

 

[Xemmy]

Im happy to see that this has taken off now, at least there seems to be a sort of debate going on, which is always a good thing.

I would normally address someone but I think Ill state my views on the issue myself so that people may know where I stand or perhaps debate me on it

You're On Good Sir!

I am Pro Life. I am strongly against abortion. My reason being is that I view it as more or less murder, as it is the killing of innocent lives. Now this isnt simply from a religious perspective, but from any perspective. It is the termination of a life and/or prevention of its life.

By that logic, no one should masterbate. And I'm highly for masterbation. It terminates life that can potentially grow into a human baby. Just like a fetus. lol

I dont think there is a single justifiable reason for abortion. I think it should be outlawed. Its not simply about choice and someones body, once you get pregnant you have someone else's body and life inside of you. People cite Roe v Wade, but they dont even realize Roe changed her position since then and has been seen recently protesting against abortion.

Regardless of whether Roe changed her mind, the Supreme Court and others haven't. I'm pretty sure Rape is a justifiable one. Yeah people who have sex don't have a real exuse, but then again I don't regard a fetus as a human. And we've got enough people on this Earth. It'd be better than giving them up for adoption too. Some of the horror stories you hear from wards of the state are nightmarish.

I think its should be outlawed for the same reason murder is outlawed. Why can a woman have her own child killed inside of her but yet its wrong to kill it once its born(some people, such as Obama have authorized or believe in post birth abortions, but this is still flat out murder)?

Murder is outlawed because it is wrong to kill someone with hopes, dreams, complex thought, complex relationships, and people who truly love them.
A fetus meets none of those qualifications.

Of course many will disagree, if they didnt this wouldnt be a controversial issue or an issue at all.

Fury I worry for you over this issue, but your spirit for debate is great, and it will lead you to greatness here in WrestleZone.

 

[Furyof5]

You're On Good Sir!

By that logic, no one should masterbate. And I'm highly for masterbation. It terminates life that can potentially grow into a human baby. Just like a fetus. lol

Incorrect, Sperm can not turn into a child, it is not alive, a fertilized egg is however.

Regardless of whether Roe changed her mind, the Supreme Court and others haven't.

Perhaps they should.

I'm pretty sure Rape is a justifiable one.

Im not.

Yeah people who have sex don't have a real exuse, but then again I don't regard a fetus as a human.

Of course you dont, or we wouldnt be having this debate. Some scientists would disagree.

And we've got enough people on this Earth.

Having a lot of people living on the Earth is justification for killing babies in the womb? You sound like the Chinese government. The founder of Planned Parenthood Margaret Sanger thought there were too many black people on the Earth, she founded the organization in part as a means of population control against them and was a huge fan of terminating them via eugenics.

It'd be better than giving them up for adoption too. Some of the horror stories you hear from wards of the state are nightmarish.

Whom are you to say this? Thats right no one. This would be like someone killing their family because they would be better in Heaven. Its idiocy.

Murder is outlawed because it is wrong to kill someone with hopes, dreams, complex thought, complex relationships, and people who truly love them.
A fetus meets none of those qualifications.

According to you, who I very much doubt is well versed in the science of which makes the decision of it being alive or not. Also this idea is false. The child COULD have all of these things. Abortions kill a life, or even a potential life, which makes it so it cant do those things.

Fury I worry for you over this issue, but your spirit for debate is great, and it will lead you to greatness here in WrestleZone.

You worry for me? How so? Is it because you feel that I will be attacked by people or do you mean it as a way of looking down on me and saying "I feel sorry for your foolish position"?

 

[One to Remember]

Ohh where to start where to start. I see we have another "Women cant do it because it's wrong" without giving any reason's WHY it's wrong, type of people.

I see we have a another cliche invoking horndog attempting to score sensitivity points in a greater attempt to score some giggity giggity. Nice try Quagmire...

No because adding in why you think that is what makes the post MAKE SENSE.

no its not because prerogative is not open for debate. if one of his excuses comes anywhere close to "we should just let her do her" I simply can't argue any points. It leaves no room to attack her actions but she isn't a damn royal sovereign so she doesn't have that much autonomy from the law.. You all gotta do better then its her business or prerogative..

That's good to hear. You're doing good so far. That's the way a parent should be. If I have no job, and was short on food, my kid would eat first as well.

ditto for you too.

Abortion is the option for the people who want to use it. Like it or not it is around, and always will be one way or another. Drugs are illegal, people still do them.

Assassinations are around for politicians who cant defeat incumbents, arson is around for insured home owners who are broke, and so on and so on. I can't think of one hurdle in my life killing couldn't remedy actually.. Laws are broken, no law has ever gone unbroken. Thats not an excuse to abolish them thats a reason to step up enforcement. The fact of the matter is as we speak right now a heinous illegal act is being committed, murders, rapes, kidnappings, and all of those (and probably to your dismay, the middle one especially) used to keep me up at night.
Another argument we here somuch is if you outlaw they'll go back to the alley. In my world as soon as they emerge from that back alley abortion law enforcement will be waiting and will make an arrest. Obviously as a young guy I can't tell you if those broads got collared pre 1973 but I do no they had violated the law and could face prosecution. I don't know if they were but they should had been ad they could had been. I'll be happy to call the law on any woman seeking a back alley abortion and any clown performing it.
Drugs lol. Somewhere today a crack user will get 15 years and 10 others will fly under the radar. Then there will actually be a few people who see ol' boy sent up the creek and think "maybe I had better not do what he did..." What is your point in breaking laws? There are consequences and a lot of people aren't that slick... And hiding an abortion is sooo much harder then hiding drug use. You either will get an illegal abortion charge or another charge for not being able to explain why your baby bump is gone yet no baby is seen.

Its almost as if you thought no one could make the decision to collar these women for killing there children. If I wore a badge it would make my day.

You're either a virgin, or really religious.

i was once both now im neither..

See, I'm a fan of sex. Lots and lots of it too. I'll do 2, maybe 3 girls a week. No intent on calling them, or seeing them again. If they get pregnant, sure I'll help out if they ask, some just ask for $50 to go get it terminated. It's her body, she has every right to do whatever the fuck she pleases with it.

Okay, word. We have common ground, lots of it. The thing about it is your the epitome of a "guy", a "jerk" as the girls would say. Your like a teenage character from deGrassi or some other soap show. Your all good for shutting it down but when she says she can't and shes keeping it you panic, your attitude changes, you bring up all the cliches "but my future, err ours imean, what about college, I'm soo young, I wanna play football for the university" all that blah blah. Your only a supporter of womens' rights when you come out unscathed. your not real. your not pro life or pro abortion your pro you.

If thru some bizarre circumstance the kid was in line to inherit something and she wanted an abortion then you'd be pro life. You look out for number 1 man.. Even now I think your trying to appeal to the feminazis to get sum..

You've still yet to mention your hate-on about it at this point.

i dont follow, i just no rape is rarely apart of the scenario yet its a blanket justification.. Its like saying we all need green because some guy with cancer may legitimately treat himself with it. Its ridiculous when your justification always has something to do with the guy next to you but never your own specific situation.

Depends where you live, and how much evidence was used to convict. Seen some get out after 5 years.

I am an American, I am a Southern (yeah thats right, shut up lol), I am an East Coaster. Around here you get more then 5 years wit good evidence. Region of origin may be effecting our views but I hope that it is not. There are jurisdictional and international components to our views on the law here I suspect.

The fuck are you going off about now? God I fell asleep reading "sins of the father zzzzzz"

It doesn't matter if your alive through rape, a child can't be held accountable for that rationally or legally. If you go through your family tree be it a hundred or five hundred years you will find that someone you came from came to be through force. Thats reality. If there is stigma thats on those making put downs. If she chooses to act harshly towards the child because of its origins that will still be a violation of child abuse laws and I would be happy to see her arrested for those charges if she broke those laws. It CAN and SHOULD be done.
Lots of good things have come from bad. The U.S. today in contrast to the slavery lovin, indian killing, pseudo-outlaw endorsing era is a prime example of how something with bad origins can do alot of good. Blaming an innocent baby who knows nothing because their father had no regard for the mother's rights is pure insanity and outrageously medieval. I only though the U.S.S.R., People's Republic of China, and backwards Middle Eastern countries believed in punishing a whole blood line. Generational penalties. That was very prevalent under the Stalin regime.

You know some women don't find out till they are like 3 months right? We didn't find out about my daughter till my ex was 4 months preggo already.

Thats like asking a cop why he wasn't wearing a vest and his response being "I didn't think I'd get shot at on the morning shift.." Who cares if she didn't find out until the 4th month she still (maybe )remembers you fucking here though? She still remembers not using a rubber though? You don't need confirmation for the plan b pill to be considered a logical choice. I doesn't matter when you show you can't assume hes shooting blanks and then be surprised later that ur preggers. Naïveté rarely holds up in any defense. I mean seriously dude.. lmao

And this is relevant..

Well there is a belief in the Black community that light skinned individuals are the complexion they are because of rape during slavery. Based on your logic Marcus Garvey could then condemn a sizable amount of the people he claimed to help by association to the White man he claimed oppressed them all. This is how topsy turvy your logic would make the World..

I think this was brought up more as in.. WHAT IF HER FATHER RAPED HER AND SHE GOT PREGNANT.. WHY WOULD SHE WANT TO KEEP IT? God you're thick. Still yet to give you hate reasons too..

The girl in Austria kept in the attic for 22 years by her father who fathered her seven kids loves her children and protects them. If she wanted to give them up for adoption i would understand that too. Abortion is still not an option. As far as science is concerned I do think that type of incest is a lot more dangerous. If tests were run confirming severe damage I probably would not oppose the abortion citing viability/self-preservation concerns. I know thats a really icky situation and I would throw a guy like that through a wall THEN BEGIN to unleash on him but it still does NOT warrant an abortion.

You're an idiot.

alright touché my n@#^, touché..

What if she's NOT a ****? Oh and ever herd of DNA tests?

DNA require her consent in this case. If she does decide to keep the baby its origins need not be disclosed.

What are you on! you go off on random rabbles that don't really have much to do with ABORTION at all.

On the contrary I don't see how you can justify killing ababy because its sickly, dependent, or without mental capacity yet I can send the special needs people who can't take care of themselves to face the fire squads since they cost the state so much money anyway. I just never ever understood why that plan makes one a monster but abortion is to be argued and tolerated. A guy in Tennessee shot his kid in a stand off with police. For blowing a 10 month child to pieces hes charged with 2nd degree murder.. Its like no one regards babies as people yet because they haven't gotten their mannerisms, quirks, and personalities developed yet so its okay to discard them.

Its like in terms of personhood they are blank slates. I think that helps an abortionist get through the night.. I also think you don't have to have a stance on abortion to not recognize the personhood of babies. I get it but I don't want too..

Well if they just aborted, then this wouldn't be an issue.

depending on the degree and therapy practices it might not had been an issue at all..

That's fine, But I do. And if you're going to bash people for that, be prepared for me to do the same to you.

ideally offspring should always be raised by their parents. threats of neglect and misconduct by unprepared parents should not result in support for abortion laws but swift disciplinary from the court against said parents.

I always favor the mother. It's their call no matter what. This is the time when men should know their roles and shut their mouths.

Hell no! Because I admit women got the short end of the stick but its not all due to oppression. They have to carry babies. When they engage in sex they know that might lead to a period in which their bodies are not their own for a few months. GET THE FUCK OVER IT and accept it. Instead of having an abortion and with me knowing better then to ask for those legs to close every once in awhile I can't see why we can't meet each other half way and just assist in getting her tubes tied. If you wanna fuck, cool, lets just shut this bullshit down though. If you wanna fuck but don't try ANYTHING to stop the results of a fuck I have no sympathy.. I bet getting your tubes tied and an abortion run the same cost..

Still yet to say WHY though.

A baby can not defend itself so I will try to help it. Its a senseless killing. The baby has done no wrong and can't do anything. Who in the name of Sam Houston is trifling and cowardly enough to declare war on a drooling baby?!

it will still be legal here in the Great White North. Also women will do it anyway, nothing will stop it.

*sigh* It was really really cool how you took those slaves in from the underground railroad but sometimes I think my country's early attempts to annex Canada was for your own good. The desire of Canadians to be contrary is soo middle school..

And depending on where you are, yes you can kill them.

the same for people.. the point is none of the laws protecting animals are religious based yet they are derivatives of laws governing human interaction and rights..

I'd like to see figures on this.

http://www.secasa.com.au/index.php/workers/25/37 it has some numbers.. there are other sites too.

This is the last time I will say it.. HER KID, HER CHOICE. You don't get a say in it. Sorry. What are you going to do if you knocked up a chick and she said she was going to get it aborted? Bore her to death with rants? Beat her and tie her in your basement? The fact of the matter is there is not a DAMN thing you CAN do about it. If a woman wants one done, she's going to get it. Period.

The most I am willing to do is sign a contract stating I will not seek child support from her or make her have contact. If that, which is already a large concession is not good enough, I will prevent her from killing my baby by any means possible. That might send me back to the clink but hey sometimes thats just how it do..

What? Where did you get that information? I mean, it's in fact well know that incest have serious consequences in the new born baby. In fact you just need to take a look at the nature. In order to get the pedigree (not Trip's move) you have to procreate the dog with his/her parent. Now it is proven that it has slow degenerative genetic diseases. Btw, it seems that you support incest, obviously I'm wrong but it seems that you defend it.

Wtf are you talking about with the dog and its mother? Its not well known because only understand half of the problem. Incest increases genetic disease because a family is likely to have the same disorder and if they inbreed the offspring don't have fresh DNA to maybe dilute what runs in the family. Its like how putting a dirt clod in a bucket of water can turn the whole bucket content brown but throwing the same clod in a pull would not make the water any less blue then it was to begin with. So if you had a family of good genetic stock and they inbred the classic disorders attributed to incest would not be seen. If you want to attack something do it in an academic manner. Social mores mean nothing to me when we have access to science. The science does not support the popular belief..

I don't understand what are you talking about. Can you please explain yourself?

He said why give birth toababy thats dying in five years. My question is how is that a waste of time and effort if people alive right now would give everything they owned for five more years if they knew their health was failing. it does not make sense how its reasonable for an older person to want five more when he says a baby isn't worth anything if all it can manage is to haNG ON a mere half-decade. As far as mercy was concerned when animals get sick or their conditions get "altered", or there is simply too many we say its the humane thing to shoot them or something. That is acceptable but I can not an elderly person or any person down like old yeller nomatter how much they suffer. The people with mental ******ation can't be put "out of their misery" either even though that would be the humane thing todo..

Very debatable. Not always murder was condemned by law. Christianity gave us the basis of some values (don't kill, don't steal etc...) and THEN we adopted it and therefore becoming a legal concept.

Everyone is to respect everyone's right to exist. To not equals anarchy, more importantly you may bight off more then you can chew fighting others. Thats the basis for anti murder laws not the 10 Commandments. A baby does not have the luck of being 6'0 and 175 lbs like moi.. What is even the appeal of terminating it?!

Everything involving sex it's a PERSONAL CHOICE. You are no one to say what is wrong and what is right.

a baby has nothing to do with sex, sex is long over with. theres more important things in life beyond orgasm, get your head out of the gutter already..

P.S. You might wonder why I keep using the term "personhood". It is because in world history when great atrocities and pogroms were committed it was only after a period in which the groups being persecuted were deemed les then human or not people or persons. Slaves in America being 3/5 a human, Jews being considered parasites, the Congolese under Belgium being considered oxen or dogs, Indians being considered savages, etc. I believe this is a huge factor in discrepancies in penalties for those who harm children vs those who harm adults or older children. I point to the hostage situation in Tennessee and incidents of women being shot in the womb by crazed fathers only to face assault charges as notable examples.

 

[Hazardous]

I see we have a another cliche invoking horndog attempting to score sensitivity points in a greater attempt to score some giggity giggity. Nice try Quagmire...

Okay, that made me laugh a bit. Yes, for the most part, I am just looking to screw. But then again, about 80% of my friends are women.. So I hear a lot of what they have to think/say as well. This topic has come up before, and only 1/10 was against it.

no its not because prerogative is not open for debate. if one of his excuses comes anywhere close to "we should just let her do her" I simply can't argue any points. It leaves no room to attack her actions but she isn't a damn royal sovereign so she doesn't have that much autonomy from the law.. You all gotta do better then its her business or prerogative..

But it's not outlawed, therefor she is not doing anything against the law. At all. In some states it may be still, and in others it's frowned upon, but for the most part, this is not against the law.

Assassinations are around for politicians who cant defeat incumbents, arson is around for insured home owners who are broke, and so on and so on. I can't think of one hurdle in my life killing couldn't remedy actually.. Laws are broken, no law has ever gone unbroken. Thats not an excuse to abolish them thats a reason to step up enforcement. The fact of the matter is as we speak right now a heinous illegal act is being committed, murders, rapes, kidnappings, and all of those (and probably to your dismay, the middle one especially) used to keep me up at night.

again though, this is not a law, but rather a personal choice.

Another argument we here somuch is if you outlaw they'll go back to the alley. In my world as soon as they emerge from that back alley abortion law enforcement will be waiting and will make an arrest. Obviously as a young guy I can't tell you if those broads got collared pre 1973 but I do no they had violated the law and could face prosecution. I don't know if they were but they should had been ad they could had been. I'll be happy to call the law on any woman seeking a back alley abortion and any clown performing it.

Or they could go to another country to get it done. Like Canada (I'll get to your comments on here soon..) Or Mexico. But it will never be fully outlawed in the US. Trust me on that.

Drugs lol. Somewhere today a crack user will get 15 years and 10 others will fly under the radar. Then there will actually be a few people who see ol' boy sent up the creek and think "maybe I had better not do what he did..." What is your point in breaking laws? There are consequences and a lot of people aren't that slick... And hiding an abortion is sooo much harder then hiding drug use. You either will get an illegal abortion charge or another charge for not being able to explain why your baby bump is gone yet no baby is seen.

You know some women don't start showing till 4 months right? Been around enough pregnant people to know that one. Even on the very small chance they outlaw it.. How are you going to stop them from doing it naturally? Falling down the stairs, smoking crack, heavy drinking?

Its almost as if you thought no one could make the decision to collar these women for killing there children. If I wore a badge it would make my day.

Mainly because some do not consider them children until birth. Some at conception, some during the third trimester.

i was once both now im neither..

That made me laugh a little too.

Okay, word. We have common ground, lots of it. The thing about it is your the epitome of a "guy", a "jerk" as the girls would say.

Most guys do have the "Jerk" persona in them. I've also been called a really nice guy lots

Your like a teenage character from deGrassi or some other soap show. Your all good for shutting it down but when she says she can't and shes keeping it you panic, your attitude changes, you bring up all the cliches "but my future, err ours imean, what about college, I'm soo young, I wanna play football for the university" all that blah blah. Your only a supporter of womens' rights when you come out unscathed. your not real. your not pro life or pro abortion your pro you.

This is where I can say you are 100% WRONG. See, I have a daughter already. 5 years old. Which means I was in high school when I knocked her mom up. She came to me and asked "What should we do" and I said it was not my call at all, but her's. If she wanted to keep it, then I'm there for the both of them. If not, well then that's her choice as well. I've knocked up 3 women, and had the same reaction to all 3. I'm not pro-me in that way at all.

If thru some bizarre circumstance the kid was in line to inherit something and she wanted an abortion then you'd be pro life. You look out for number 1 man.. Even now I think your trying to appeal to the feminazis to get sum..

No. As explained above.

I am an American, I am a Southern (yeah thats right, shut up lol)

You say you're from the south, and still make the crack at Canada? Wow..

I am an East Coaster. Around here you get more then 5 years wit good evidence. Region of origin may be effecting our views but I hope that it is not. There are jurisdictional and international components to our views on the law here I suspect.

Depends on the circumstances I think. There was a pedophile let out after only 5 years just recently. And that's often seen as the worst form of rape.

If she chooses to act harshly towards the child because of its origins that will still be a violation of child abuse laws and I would be happy to see her arrested for those charges if she broke those laws. It CAN and SHOULD be done.

Again, then the debate of "when does a child's life "begin" comes into play. there is no 1 answer to that question.

Lots of good things have come from bad. The U.S. today in contrast to the slavery lovin, indian killing, pseudo-outlaw endorsing era is a prime example of how something with bad origins can do alot of good.

What good came from that again? Besides rap music and casinos that is.

Blaming an innocent baby who knows nothing because their father had no regard for the mother's rights is pure insanity and outrageously medieval. I only though the U.S.S.R., People's Republic of China, and backwards Middle Eastern countries believed in punishing a whole blood line. Generational penalties. That was very prevalent under the Stalin regime.

Not all abortions are done for that reason though either.

Thats like asking a cop why he wasn't wearing a vest and his response being "I didn't think I'd get shot at on the morning shift.."

Has happened lots.

Who cares if she didn't find out until the 4th month she still (maybe )remembers you fucking here though?

Depends on the circumstance. If they got trashed at the bar. Hell I've ran into girls, and it triggered a memory to me screwing them when I was blacked out drunk.

Well there is a belief in the Black community that light skinned individuals are the complexion they are because of rape during slavery. Based on your logic Marcus Garvey could then condemn a sizable amount of the people he claimed to help by association to the White man he claimed oppressed them all. This is how topsy turvy your logic would make the World..

Ah, but once they are born, they are considered living. No matter what. So killing them is indeed murder.

The girl in Austria kept in the attic for 22 years by her father who fathered her seven kids loves her children and protects them. If she wanted to give them up for adoption i would understand that too.

I hope that man lost his balls in prison. But she did not have the option for abortion either. Being kept in an attic and all.

Abortion is still not an option.

For some. For others it is.

As far as science is concerned I do think that type of incest is a lot more dangerous. If tests were run confirming severe damage I probably would not oppose the abortion citing viability/self-preservation concerns. I know thats a really icky situation and I would throw a guy like that through a wall THEN BEGIN to unleash on him but it still does NOT warrant an abortion.

Seems I'm saying it a lot, but again, this is a matter of personal opinion and preference. Not all women agree with me on the matter, but some do. It's a split topic, and probably always will be.

On the contrary I don't see how you can justify killing ababy because its sickly, dependent, or without mental capacity yet I can send the special needs people who can't take care of themselves to face the fire squads since they cost the state so much money anyway. I just never ever understood why that plan makes one a monster but abortion is to be argued and tolerated. A guy in Tennessee shot his kid in a stand off with police. For blowing a 10 month child to pieces hes charged with 2nd degree murder.. Its like no one regards babies as people yet because they haven't gotten their mannerisms, quirks, and personalities developed yet so its okay to discard them.

In that case, yes he should be sent to prison. But that is different from someone aborting when they are a month pregnant. Again, it's personal opinion.

Its like in terms of personhood they are blank slates. I think that helps an abortionist get through the night.. I also think you don't have to have a stance on abortion to not recognize the personhood of babies. I get it but I don't want too..

But I do have a stance, and I do recognize the "personhood of babies" as you put it. We just have a different opinion of when life starts.

ideally offspring should always be raised by their parents. threats of neglect and misconduct by unprepared parents should not result in support for abortion laws but swift disciplinary from the court against said parents.

I guess it's too bad for you that we don't live in an "ideal" world then.

Hell no! Because I admit women got the short end of the stick but its not all due to oppression. They have to carry babies. When they engage in sex they know that might lead to a period in which their bodies are not their own for a few months. GET THE FUCK OVER IT and accept it.

I would pay to watch you say that to a woman who is pro-choice. It'd be pretty funny haha

Instead of having an abortion and with me knowing better then to ask for those legs to close every once in awhile I can't see why we can't meet each other half way and just assist in getting her tubes tied.

Well if she's only 16 now, she may want children when she's like 27. Also in most cases they won't let you get your tubes tied till you have had a kid already.

If you wanna fuck, cool, lets just shut this bullshit down though. If you wanna fuck but don't try ANYTHING to stop the results of a fuck I have no sympathy.. I bet getting your tubes tied and an abortion run the same cost..

Cost of an abortion = $500 (private office) $1000 (at the hospital)
Cost of tubes tied = $1,000 to $2,500
Granted these are the Canadian numbers, as it differs from state-state.

A baby can not defend itself so I will try to help it. Its a senseless killing. The baby has done no wrong and can't do anything. Who in the name of Sam Houston is trifling and cowardly enough to declare war on a drooling baby?!

I love babies. I do, but the "when do you count life starting" debate comes into play here as well.

*sigh* It was really really cool how you took those slaves in from the underground railroad but sometimes I think my country's early attempts to annex Canada was for your own good. The desire of Canadians to be contrary is soo middle school..

WOW! Yeah, we saw how good that worked out for you guys too.. Ended in the white house being set on fire. I wouldn't say we're THAT "contrary". Just have a more relaxed gov. Weed is still illegal, we just have a lot of it here. As well as on 4:20 there was a huge party in the park in down town van, where people were allowed to come smoke up. We have free health care, and have for a long long time (see America, it's not going to cause the end of your country, ours is still around!), and we have the rights to abortion and gay marriage. Same as a lot of states are doing.

the same for people.. the point is none of the laws protecting animals are religious based yet they are derivatives of laws governing human interaction and rights..

Just like there is no religious law against termination a pregnancy, yet some people seem to think there is.

http://www.secasa.com.au/index.php/workers/25/37 it has some numbers.. there are other sites too.

you're going by numbers published in 1995?? Shit Tupac was still alive when that came out. Can you give numbers from maybe this decade?

The most I am willing to do is sign a contract stating I will not seek child support from her or make her have contact. If that, which is already a large concession is not good enough, I will prevent her from killing my baby by any means possible. That might send me back to the clink but hey sometimes thats just how it do..

WOOOOWW.. I'm not even going to touch that one.

 

[Xemmy]

Incorrect, Sperm can not turn into a child, it is not alive, a fertilized egg is however.

Not according to my biology book. The fertilized egg is just the next step in the process. And besides not every fetilized eggs makes it to the uterus.
Once an egg is fertilized in the fallopian tubes, it has to travel to the uterus. It can take 5-10 days for this to happen. Because many women can start their periods while this process is taking place, and most do, it flushes the fertilized eggs out of the body onto sanitary napkins. Because it's impossible for scientists to determine how often this happens, it's estimated between 60 and 80 percent of fertilized eggs are rinsed and flushed out of her body during those deliteful few days she has.
So are women murderers?

Perhaps they should.

Let's not and say we did.

Im not.

Fury's Got Issues.

Of course you dont, or we wouldnt be having this debate. Some scientists would disagree.

True, and others would just call it an embryo, and part of the stage of life.

Having a lot of people living on the Earth is justification for killing babies in the womb? You sound like the Chinese government. The founder of Planned Parenthood Margaret Sanger thought there were too many black people on the Earth, she founded the organization in part as a means of population control against them and was a huge fan of terminating them via eugenics.

I don't call them babies until they're born, and I don't care what some crazy lady did.

Whom are you to say this? Thats right no one. This would be like someone killing their family because they would be better in Heaven. Its idiocy.

Comparing something that does not have thoughts, feelings, loved ones, hopes, dreams, and complex relationships to a family is idiocy Good Sir.

According to you, who I very much doubt is well versed in the science of which makes the decision of it being alive or not. Also this idea is false. The child COULD have all of these things. Abortions kill a life, or even a potential life, which makes it so it cant do those things.

I am well versed in Science actually, Biology in paticular happens to be my favorite subject. And it's not a decision of it being alive or not. A fetus is alive. So is sperm. Those are facts. The "fetus" not child does not have all the things I mentioned. That is a fact. Masterbation kills millions of lives, or millions of potential lives. Which makes it so it can't do those things.

You worry for me? How so? Is it because you feel that I will be attacked by people or do you mean it as a way of looking down on me and saying "I feel sorry for your foolish position"?

I guess a little of both.....but you're still awesome!

 

[Xemmy]

On the contrary I don't see how you can justify killing ababy because its sickly, dependent, or without mental capacity yet I can send the special needs people who can't take care of themselves to face the fire squads since they cost the state so much money anyway.

I don't think Mongoose covered this one, so I will.

There is a very big difference between preventing the life of person, and ending the live of a person.

When you bring a child into this world that cannot live a long happy life, you are being irresponsible and cruel.

 

[Furyof5]

Not according to my biology book. The fertilized egg is just the next step in the process. And besides not every fetilized eggs makes it to the uterus.
Once an egg is fertilized in the fallopian tubes, it has to travel to the uterus. It can take 5-10 days for this to happen. Because many women can start their periods while this process is taking place, and most do, it flushes the fertilized eggs out of the body onto sanitary napkins. Because it's impossible for scientists to determine how often this happens, it's estimated between 60 and 80 percent of fertilized eggs are rinsed and flushed out of her body during those deliteful few days she has.
So are women murderers?

Im fully aware of this process thank you. If its involuntary then of course it would not be the fault. There is a big difference between a miscarriage and abortion.

Let's not and say we did.

I would love to be able to say they have changed it, but they wont. Genocide is perfectly acceptable when its amongst the undesirables now isnt it?.

Fury's Got Issues.

A fun play on words. And simply because someone is raped doesnt make it the babies fault, they are innocent and 2 wrongs do not make a right, no matter what bullshit justification the woman has. "I dont want his baby growing inside of me" is sure as hell not good enough justification.

True, and others would just call it an embryo, and part of the stage of life.

Of course they do, if they called it a baby they would be opening endorsing the murder of a baby. Nazi's called Jews subhumans and said it was ok to commit genocide against them.

I don't call them babies until they're born, and I don't care what some crazy lady did.

Crazy lady? Thats too funny. She founded Planned Parenthood. They are the leading givers of abortion in the US. She founded it as a means of exterminating black people. Once people unveil the dark history behind their positions they sure are quick to try and dismiss it.

Comparing something that does not have thoughts, feelings, loved ones, hopes, dreams, and complex relationships to a family is idiocy Good Sir.

Really? I wouldnt think so, at all. No one knows ig a baby is thinking and feeling inside of the womb, they would be happier closing their eyes and shoving their fingers in their ears so they can selfishly dispose of the undesirable. A baby can grow up, they can have all of those, they can have a family, that family can have a family. Killing of that one being is comparable to the killing of many.

I am well versed in Science actually, Biology in paticular happens to be my favorite subject. And it's not a decision of it being alive or not. A fetus is alive. So is sperm. Those are facts.

Really? Facts you say?

The "fetus" not child does not have all the things I mentioned. That is a fact. Masterbation kills millions of lives, or millions of potential lives. Which makes it so it can't do those things.

And religion is against *********ion to begin with. But you yourself said a baby is alive in the womb, so we would in fact be killing it. Killing your child is done out of selfish motivations are false ideals, thus it is murder.

Youve made my point.

I guess a little of both.....but you're still awesome!

I have to laugh at that. I look down on no one. Looking down on someone is to put yourself on a plain above them first, so that you may look down. I find it sad that you do in fact feel sorry for me or look down on me. If I werent the man I am I would do the same for you. But youre simply misguided.

Abortion is nothing more than murdering of a baby, but doing it in an "out of sight out of mind" way. It being widescale make it genocide. Rather than a minority or even a political foe the "undesirables" are replaced by innocent children yet to be born. And they are exterminated out of selfishness, and in some cases political ideology. Some countries like China force people to get abortions, and yet they are against it, because they WANT their children to live. In America if you kill a pregnant mother its double murder, and most abortionists agree with that law.

The Hypocrisy is truly startling.

 

[Xemmy]

Im fully aware of this process thank you. If its involuntary then of course it would not be the fault. There is a big difference between a miscarriage and abortion.

Not really. The result is the same. So if it isn't murder, it's still accidental murder.

I would love to be able to say they have changed it, but they wont. Genocide is perfectly acceptable when its amongst the undesirables now isnt it?.

Yes. When the genocide is conducted on thins that don't have loved ones, relationships, or complex thoughts.

A fun play on words. And simply because someone is raped doesnt make it the babies fault, they are innocent and 2 wrongs do not make a right, no matter what bullshit justification the woman has. "I dont want his baby growing inside of me" is sure as hell not good enough justification.

"Honey, guess what? Well, when that man raped you he put a little seed in your tummy.....No, don't cry.....Look we're good people so you're going to have to carry that seed for nine months as a horrible reminder of your shame. And then you'll be a mommy, and look down at your baby, as a reminder of that night for the rest of your life."

Of course they do, if they called it a baby they would be opening endorsing the murder of a baby. Nazi's called Jews subhumans and said it was ok to commit genocide against them.

HEY! Godwin's Law remember! No Nazi comparisions. And btw, are you implying that Jews have no complex emotions, thoughts, loved ones, and social relationships?

Crazy lady? Thats too funny. She founded Planned Parenthood. They are the leading givers of abortion in the US. She founded it as a means of exterminating black people. Once people unveil the dark history behind their positions they sure are quick to try and dismiss it.

No it just really doesn't matter what she intended to do. I have no problem with Planned Parenthood today. If she really did intend to do what you said, then she's a crazy lady. But that doesn't take anything away from the Organization. The same way the fact that the U.S's condoning of Slavery in the past doesn't take any of it's accomplishments away.

Really? I wouldnt think so, at all. No one knows ig a baby is thinking and feeling inside of the womb, they would be happier closing their eyes and shoving their fingers in their ears so they can selfishly dispose of the undesirable. A baby can grow up, they can have all of those, they can have a family, that family can have a family. Killing of that one being is comparable to the killing of many.

Actually, yes we can. It isn't even until the 29th week that the nervous system completes it's outline development, and then it spends the rest of the time growin. And if it did have those feelings, and primitive thoughts, it would make nature a real bitch wouldn't it? Being all alone inside a tight little space for nine months would drive anything to an incurable maddness.
Every seen a puppy abused? That ends up effecting it's little personality till the day it dies.

Really? Facts you say?

....Do you read much Fury?

And religion is against *********ion to begin with. But you yourself said a baby is alive in the womb, so we would in fact be killing it. Killing your child is done out of selfish motivations are false ideals, thus it is murder.

Youve made my point.

I'm against religion. No, I didn't say a baby was alive in the womb. I said a fetus was. I really don't consider it a "baby" until things like thought and emotions take root and have developed. (25th week, after that, then yeah, I don't see it as abortion anymore) Killing a pig isn't considered wrong, and it has alot more emotions, relationships, and thoughts than your average developing fetus.

I have to laugh at that. I look down on no one. Looking down on someone is to put yourself on a plain above them first, so that you may look down. I find it sad that you do in fact feel sorry for me or look down on me. If I werent the man I am I would do the same for you. But youre simply misguided.

Abortion is nothing more than murdering of a baby, but doing it in an "out of sight out of mind" way. It being widescale make it genocide. Rather than a minority or even a political foe the "undesirables" are replaced by innocent children yet to be born. And they are exterminated out of selfishness, and in some cases political ideology. Some countries like China force people to get abortions, and yet they are against it, because they WANT their children to live. In America if you kill a pregnant mother its double murder, and most abortionists agree with that law.

I'm sorry. It kind of goes with the gimmick. And you have every right to think I'm misguided. However that also means you look down on me in your own little way. And I don't blame you for that. People look down on others for certain things, and everyone does it.

Abortion is nothing more than terminating a fetus, but doing it in a humane way. It being widescale means that there won't be bitter mothers with children that feel unwanted. China's got their own fucked up little world, and that's their way of dealing with it. If you kill a pregnant mother who wanted her child, then yeah, it probably is double murder, especially if she's late in pregnancy. It really doesn't matter. The guy's going to get life, or DP anyway.

The Hypocrisy is truly startling.

The only hypocrisy is that people want live babies so they can raise 'em to be dead soldiers.

 

[Furyof5]

Not really. The result is the same. So if it isn't murder, it's still accidental murder.

Totally different, really this is a poor angle youre arguing from.

Yes. When the genocide is conducted on thins that don't have loved ones, relationships, or complex thoughts.

Honestly, there is much more behind killing something then the same things you continue to say. But alas, you refuse to see the obvious point I KEEP placing in front of you about how they can have them.

"Honey, guess what? Well, when that man raped you he put a little seed in your tummy.....No, don't cry.....Look we're good people so you're going to have to carry that seed for nine months as a horrible reminder of your shame. And then you'll be a mommy, and look down at your baby, as a reminder of that night for the rest of your life."

Not if she gives it up for adoption, she will never have to see him again, unless of course he becomes a revolutionary man whom changes the world, then she would have regretted killing him.

It is not the innocent child's fault the woman was raped, two wrongs do not make a right.

HEY! Godwin's Law remember! No Nazi comparisions. And btw, are you implying that Jews have no complex emotions, thoughts, loved ones, and social relationships?

The stupidity of your arguments only suggests you are a secular progressive. Murder is wrong because it is the taking of another's life, not because of whom it may effect in their families.

THE BABY WILL GROW UP AND HAVE THESE THINGS. Scientists also dont know what goes on inside of the mind of a forming child, they may very well have emotions. But better to stick our fingers in our ears, because if we found out then we couldnt discard them like yesterday's paper.

No it just really doesn't matter what she intended to do. I have no problem with Planned Parenthood today. If she really did intend to do what you said, then she's a crazy lady. But that doesn't take anything away from the Organization. The same way the fact that the U.S's condoning of Slavery in the past doesn't take any of it's accomplishments away.

Stupid point, honestly. I have issues with them, because they are an organization which kills children in the womb and indoctrinates our children with their constant government endorsed visits and programs in our public schools.

Actually, yes we can. It isn't even until the 29th week that the nervous system completes it's outline development, and then it spends the rest of the time growin. And if it did have those feelings, and primitive thoughts, it would make nature a real bitch wouldn't it? Being all alone inside a tight little space for nine months would drive anything to an incurable maddness.
Every seen a puppy abused? That ends up effecting it's little personality till the day it dies.

You are still missing the biggest point, which is even if they are a fucking rock until they are born they are still alive and they can still grow up and have all of these things. Youre definition of why killing and murder is wrong is fucking sickening.

....Do you read much Fury?

Yes I do, but I dont subscribe to your dogma.

I'm against religion.

Of course you are, its blatantly obvious. Im sorry your against organizations which promote peace and love in favor of your point of view which is more or less the cause of all that is vile in the world. Next you'll be telling me youre a fan of Karl Marx and Joseph Stalin.

No, I didn't say a baby was alive in the womb. I said a fetus was.

Semantics. Thats all this is about. Scientists dont want to call it a baby because they would be condoning BABY KILLING. Its the same reason why we dont call Veal Murdered, tortured, baby cow, because people wouldnt eat it, or in this case people wouldnt go to the baby murdering facility.

I really don't consider it a "baby" until things like thought and emotions take root and have developed.

Of course you dont. A brain dead human is still a human isnt it?

(25th week, after that, then yeah, I don't see it as abortion anymore) Killing a pig isn't considered wrong, and it has alot more emotions, relationships, and thoughts than your average developing fetus.

Now babies growing in the womb are below that of pigs, youre views make me fucking sick.

I'm sorry. It kind of goes with the gimmick.

Youll find out gimmicks tend to piss people off.

And you have every right to think I'm misguided. However that also means you look down on me in your own little way. And I don't blame you for that. People look down on others for certain things, and everyone does it.

Except I dont. Now you have the audacity to tell me I dont even know what I think and feel. You really are a fool.

Abortion is nothing more than terminating a fetus, but doing it in a humane way.

In a humane way... You have no idea the kinds of horrors have been done in a clean humane way". I really hate the way you people think.

It being widescale means that there won't be bitter mothers with children that feel unwanted.

No, it being widescale simply means that its killing of an undesirable on a wide scale, AKA genocide.

China's got their own fucked up little world, and that's their way of dealing with it.

Yep, here comes the moral relativity. You people are some of the most brain dead people on Earth. Im sure you loved Chairman Mao.

If you kill a pregnant mother who wanted her child, then yeah, it probably is double murder, especially if she's late in pregnancy.

What if shes not? Why is it double murder? Hypocrisy, plain and simple.

It really doesn't matter. The guy's going to get life, or DP anyway.

Of course it doesnt matter, human life nor anything in existence truly matters when you have no beliefs.

The only hypocrisy is that people want live babies so they can raise 'em to be dead soldiers.

Really from now on Ill do my best to not respond... What a moronic statement... Youre entire argument is sickening.

 

[Xemmy]

Totally different, really this is a poor angle youre arguing from.

I'm just looking for some consistancy in these anti-abortion arguments.

Honestly, there is much more behind killing something then the same things you continue to say. But alas, you refuse to see the obvious point I KEEP placing in front of you about how they can have them.

I you keep forgeting that it shares that trait with sperm. Which would mean
that most men are serial killers.

Not if she gives it up for adoption, she will never have to see him again, unless of course he becomes a revolutionary man whom changes the world, then she would have regretted killing him.

It is not the innocent child's fault the woman was raped, two wrongs do not make a right.

See that's my point, I just don't see abortion as wrong. It's got Human DNA. Big deal. It still doesn't qualify as something that IS inherently human. My little list remember. And I'm sure alot of women would consider you a monster for seeing it that way.

The stupidity of your arguments only suggests you are a secular progressive. Murder is wrong because it is the taking of another's life, not because of whom it may effect in their families.

Murder is wrong for a number of reasons and the taking of life isn't one of them. If that was the defintion then you don't eat. I didn't say just families. Hopes, dreams, ambitions, feelings, complex thoughts. The list goes on.

THE BABY WILL GROW UP AND HAVE THESE THINGS. Scientists also dont know what goes on inside of the mind of a forming child, they may very well have emotions. But better to stick our fingers in our ears, because if we found out then we couldnt discard them like yesterday's paper.

Sperm can too. Scientists don't. I don't know what's going on in your mind either. However we know how the brain works. It's very small, and still developing. If any nerve activity IS going on, then it is still the basics. None of the major brain functions are active until late in the pregnancy.

Stupid point, honestly. I have issues with them, because they are an organization which kills children in the womb and indoctrinates our children with their constant government endorsed visits and programs in our public schools.

They're an organization that kills fetus's in the womb and....indoctrinates?
Back up....You think they're brain washing kids? They also teach safe sex you know. I didn't get that. I got Abstence programs that told me that condoms don't work. Man, kids have it good these days.

You are still missing the biggest point, which is even if they are a fucking rock until they are born they are still alive and they can still grow up and have all of these things. Youre definition of why killing and murder is wrong is fucking sickening.

I'm not missing your point Fury. I understand it. I just don't care. Until they are grown up and have all those things, I don't value them. The same reason I don't value sperm. And you seem to have missed that point.

Yes I do, but I dont subscribe to your dogma.

I have no Dogma. Cool it Fury, you're getting too heated.

Of course you are, its blatantly obvious. Im sorry your against organizations which promote peace and love in favor of your point of view which is more or less the cause of all that is vile in the world. Next you'll be telling me youre a fan of Karl Marx and Joseph Stalin.

First. They don't. Otherwise 100,000,000 people (according to tdigle because apparently I can't do math) would be alive today.
Second. Drop it. This isn't about religion.
Third. I am a fan of Karl Marx.

Semantics. Thats all this is about. Scientists dont want to call it a baby because they would be condoning BABY KILLING. Its the same reason why we dont call Veal Murdered, tortured, baby cow, because people wouldnt eat it, or in this case people wouldnt go to the baby murdering facility.

I'm glad to know you're omnicient, and know what scientists are thinking.
And I would eat it.

Of course you dont. A brain dead human is still a human isnt it?

Yes, and accidents happen. They're still human, but they've lost all the qualities I mentioned. Except one. Chances are they still have people that love them.

Now babies growing in the womb are below that of pigs, youre views make me fucking sick.

Calm it down Fury. Yes. Pigs believe it or not, are smarter than dogs. And as smart as 3 year old children.

Youll find out gimmicks tend to piss people off.

Youll find that I was still at least semi-polite about it. Like I said cool it. You wanted someone to debate with, you got it.

Except I dont. Now you have the audacity to tell me I dont even know what I think and feel. You really are a fool.

It's not audacity. And I'm not reading your mind. I'm generalizing humanity as whole. It's my world view. And my world view is that everyone on Earth judges people, and see people who the think are above them or below them. It's clear by you calling me a fool that I'm right.

In a humane way... You have no idea the kinds of horrors have been done in a clean humane way". I really hate the way you people think.

They felt no pain. They knew no horror.

No, it being widescale simply means that its killing of an undesirable on a wide scale, AKA genocide.

Once again. Genocide is a form of murder. I don't agree that it's murder, and I've explained why.

Yep, here comes the moral relativity. You people are some of the most brain dead people on Earth. Im sure you loved Chairman Mao.

Who?

What if shes not? Why is it double murder? Hypocrisy, plain and simple.

Because if a mother wants her baby then it qualifies for one of my rules. Loved ones. It's not hypocrisy, I look at certain things in different ways. Everything doesn't have the same moral compass.

Of course it doesnt matter, human life nor anything in existence truly matters when you have no beliefs.

Really from now on Ill do my best to not respond... What a moronic statement... Youre entire argument is sickening.

Just showing some George Carlin loyalty. Call me Satan if you will. But I still like you Fury. You've got the heart of a lion.

 

[Xemmy]

WOW. Okay, now THAT one I take offense to..

It's just targeting a certain group among pro-lifers. Everyone on here seems to want to throw the word murder around, you're bound to get offended at something.

It's just my way of showing George Carlin love.
And it isn't meant to be taken seriously.

 

[Davi323]

I have been in far too many abortion debates on other boards over the years to have grown weary of yet another abortion fight to really want to get in another one...but, ask yourself this...if you believe in those certain inalienable human rights, among them Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, who needs those rights defended the most, those who are capable of defending those rights themselves, or those who are completely defenseless against those rights being violated?

That is all.

 

[El Rev sXe]

Well I could do all the quote thing, but there are many things to say, so I'm going to make one big picture as an aswer to well, the thread. I'm not saying that is THE answer, but MY answer.

I'm done with the syllogism "if you kill the baby with abortion, why you wouldn't kill human beings?". I can see the logic CONSTRUCTION, but no the logic itself. "Cats have four legs, a table has four legs; therefore, a cat is a table and a table is a cat". It has a logic construction but it doesn't make any sense!

You are pro life, that means that you defend the right of a person to live, but also the possible life of a being. So how can you say that if someone doesn't want the baby, abortion is not the answer, but the pill is? I mean, technically you are endig the POSSIBLE life of a being. Syllogism: so you are against all kind of contraceptive, because they end the life of a possible being? So with that logic you think that you are against "NATURE" because you think that isn't time for you to procreate. Therefore you need to banned all kind of contraceptive cause TECHNICALLY they end the life of a POSSIBLE being..

I insist! There is NO WAY that abortion is going to disappear. You might be pro life "against life" or whatever, but man! If abortion is illegal, THERE ARE ALOT OF CHANCE THAT NOT ONLY THE FETUS IS GOING TO SUFFER CONSEQUENCES BUT ALSO THE MOTHER! SHE CAN DIE! If you are pro-life you should be PRO life of the mother. I mean, did you ever thought about all the physical psychological traumas?! Why can't you have a clean, legal procedure that DOESN'T RISK THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER!?

It's always the same thing with the topic of sex. "It isn't natural, it isn't the will of god, it isn't aprove in the bible." And guess what, in the end it's always aproved (by the majority of society) whatever that can be: condoms, contraceptives, homosexuality, swingers, BDSM, anal sex, amongst many MANY other things.

 

[One to Remember]

about 80% of my friends are women..

you'll also known that they are prone o irrationality and that they have a proven track record of losing all composure when in panic or the slightest amount of pressure. Not all but its an atribute with them.. They have skewed views on certain things. Not trying o be exist though, just real talk.

But it's not outlawed, therefor she is not doing anything against the law. At all. In some states it may be still, and in others it's frowned upon, but for the most part, this is not against the law.

All laws are subject to be overturned at some point. That day will come..

again though, this is not a law, but rather a personal choice.

i wasn't making legal arguments I was just stating a fact. The vast majority of problems can be solved by wacking somebody...

Or they could go to another country to get it done. Like Canada (I'll get to your comments on here soon..) Or Mexico. But it will never be fully outlawed in the US. Trust me on that.

Okay I don't think its that simple. Plenty of people who commit U.S. crimes overseas are prosecuted here. So leaving jurisdiction might not help if the U.S. assumes jurisdiction of its citizens. Noriega was from Panama yet the Florida Department of Corrections held him for 2 decades. They are trying to deport ex Nazis and Somalian war criminals even though their crimes our outside of U.S. jurisdiction. The U.S. simply might not accept the crime being committed by its citizens anywhere.. That type of enforcement is a debate for another thread though.

Even on the very small chance they outlaw it.. How are you going to stop them from doing it naturally? Falling down the stairs, smoking crack, heavy drinking?

The former would definitely give the most seasoned detective a run for his money. The latter two are easy convictions and are crimes without a baby either way. Even when a full grown person falls down a flight of stairs a law enforcement agency or court might still not accept that excuse, all wil launch an inquiry.

Mainly because some do not consider them children until birth. Some at conception, some during the third trimester.

your saying if a cop comes across an illegal abortion hes just gonna cut her lose or write a citation? Is that what you think?

Most guys do have the "Jerk" persona in them. I've also been called a really nice guy lots

the latter usually precedes the former in choice of labeling anyways though.

I've knocked up 3 women, and had the same reaction to all 3. I'm not pro-me in that way at all.

What if your daughter questioned you on why she is missing two siblings I bet you'd have no sharp response then...

Depends on the circumstances I think. There was a pedophile let out after only 5 years just recently. And that's often seen as the worst form of rape.

socially, public ally yeah. In court I feel the system is weaker on the pornographers and fondlers/touchers then the rapist. Thats my perception from research, reading the paper, word of mouth, etc.

Again, then the debate of "when does a child's life "begin" comes into play. there is no 1 answer to that question.

You know how much of a quest it is for that sperm to travel up that girl? And fight those other sperms, some from different dudes, then burrow into that huge egg? The second it does that its done its duty. After its done al that its time for others to start looking out after it so it can continue to do what it needsto do.

What good came from that again? Besides rap music and casinos that is.

The Marshal Plan in Europe, we freed Panama from being apart of Columbia, The U.S. is the most charitable country on earth, look what we done for the South Koreans, we helped est. Albania, democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan, later presidents did endorse civil rights and helping Indians, immigrants from downtrodden countries were given opportunities here tomake something of themselves, we fought fascism and communism, we stopped genocide in the Balkans, the list goes on of good deeds.

Not all abortions are done for that reason though either.

All the top reasons suck:
It reminds me of him
I don't want my attackers seed sprouting out
I wanna have more fun..
I'm broke as a joke!
It's my body and I want to keep it that way.

And the last 1is the most idiotic because the baby is no parasite. The woman's body allows it drain resources intentionally so that it can grow.

Depends on the circumstance. If they got trashed at the bar. Hell I've ran into girls, and it triggered a memory to me screwing them when I was blacked out drunk.

If they are that lose they need to again go on the pill or get their tubes tied if permitted.

Ah, but once they are born, they are considered living. No matter what. So killing them is indeed murder.

Alright alright check this out, even before the predicted birth date or month even a baby has serious viability to live even after being being born a month, 2 months, even 3 months premature. I wonder what your reaction would be if one of your 1 nighters had an abortion and the thing they pulled out just wasn't dead. would you claim ownership then? Being born hasnothing to do with being. Thats like saying a siamese twin cant get his own SS number until he separates from the sibling hes fused to.. Life begins when sperm meets egg, neither by themselves are more then just their respective parents.

I hope that man lost his balls in prison. But she did not have the option for abortion either. Being kept in an attic and all.

She did not have to have contact with the kids she had in that house though she still raised them. I think she might had yet again been pregnant when authorities found her. Either way she loves her kids and they are with her.

In that case, yes he should be sent to prison. But that is different from someone aborting when they are a month pregnant. Again, it's personal opinion.

not al your scenarios, barely any actually involve being only a month preggers. your always saying a 4 month fetus and etc is still not even a person.

But I do have a stance, and I do recognize the "personhood of babies" as you put it. We just have a different opinion of when life starts.

if life hasn't started yet because the fetus is not a person whats the big deal in letting it hang around in her tummy? If its in effect as you claim why even fret it? Why even do anything? Why get a medical procedure to handle a "nothing?"

I would pay to watch you say that to a woman who is pro-choice. It'd be pretty funny haha

No I don't want money. Its the truth. Its not my fault they are shorter, its not my fault they are weaker, its not my fault they have painful periods and we don't, its not my fault they have to curry an 8-12 pound bundle of joy around that kicks her ribs, makes her throw up her favor foods, uses her bladder as a bean bag chair, makes it impossible to sleepy lying down, causes back pains, or causes her so much agony she can't work. Its a man's fault that a woman couldn't vote til 1921. Its a mans fault a guy who sleeps around is "da man" but a girl is a ****, its a mans fault that for every dollar i make she makes 3 pennies less, its a mans fault a woman has to wear sun glasses to cover those shiners, its a mans fault their only career options were being teachers or nurses and its my genders fault girls are stoned in the middle east, have their genetials mutilated in the horn of Afrika, and that their schools in Iraq and Afghanistan are blow up a week after being built. YEAH THATS MY FAULT, THATS YOUR FAULT MR. LADIES' MAN, ITS FURY'S FAULT, IT'S VAL VENUS' FAULT, IT'S PIERRE TRUDEAU'S FAULT, SCOTTY FLAMINGO, IKE TURNER, NAT TURNER, TED TURNER, TRICK DADDY PUFF DADDY SOMEONE'S STEP DADDY, ITS OUR FAULT, ITS THE SIN AND MISCONDUCT OF MEN.
I ADMIT MAN HAS COMPLICATED THE LIFE OF WOMAN KIND AND HAS OPPRESSED HER AND ABUSED HER AND HAD BEEN UNFAIR TO HER AND RUTHLESS TO HER. GOOD MUTHERFUCKIN GRIEF CHARLIE BROWN!!!
No man is responsible for a woman's responsibility to nature. No man is responsible for her having to bear the pains of bringing new life into the world. If she is a Christian take it up with God, if she is an atheist take it up with Mother Nature, but get the hell over your lotin life because a man isn't responsible for every injustice and double standard in their damn lives and a baby will not bare the brunt of that bitterness and angst.
ANY WOMAN WHO SAYS SHE HAS THE RIGHT TO AN ABORTION BECAUSE ITS HER BUSINESS HER BODY HAS A BONE TO PICK AND A SCORE TO SETTLE. I WILL NOT STAND BY AN AN INNOCENT BABY LOSES HIS CHANCE AT LIFE BECAUSE OF PARTISANSHIP.
you don't have to pay me a dime to say that in front of a crowd, I don't care whos there, If I'm surrounded, outnumbered, out gunned, there is never a bad time to speak the good word.
Now what you think about that chief?! *spits water out of mouth like Triple H* AHHHHHH!!!

Well if she's only 16 now, she may want children when she's like 27. Also in most cases they won't let you get your tubes tied till you have had a kid already.

She'd just have to wait til shes 34 to have a life again but she could be older and more decrepit..

Cost of an abortion = $500 (private office) $1000 (at the hospital)
Cost of tubes tied = $1,000 to $2,500
Granted these are the Canadian numbers, as it differs from state-state.

they can leave the state but eithrway the cost of birth control will ad up tomore then that, and the cost of child birth probably is the exact payment you'd give for tube tying, and of course it cost like 100 grand to raise a kid for 18 years.

I love babies. I do, but the "when do you count life starting" debate comes into play here as well.

We are humans we are not a strawberry bush, we can not and do not reproduce asexually. Each one of us is made out of two individuals. The second sperm enters the egg an the egg seals itself its closed for discussion. What do you think is going on inside that egg once the sperm enters? You think they play Halo? Debate whether or not Scorsesse is a better director then Stone?!NO! A life is now beng made.

Ended in the white house being set on fire.

such a misconception.

Just like there is no religious law against termination a pregnancy, yet some people seem to think there is.

fetus is covered under other religious laws, no need for redundancy.

you're going by numbers published in 1995?? Shit Tupac was still alive when that came out. Can you give numbers from maybe this decade?

yeah and your country was about to lose an entire province by a mere referendum lmao. historic fail..
Either way you can google mothers and sexual abuse to get your ow up to date information.

I'm not even going to touch that one

she can throw some other dude's kid in the city dump, not mine. She go get blazed, avoid any financial accountability, if thats still not good enough I am lookin out for my kid regardless of what I gotta do.

Not according to my biology book. The fertilized egg is just the next step in the process. And besides not every fetilized eggs makes it to the uterus.
Once an egg is fertilized in the fallopian tubes, it has to travel to the uterus. It can take 5-10 days for this to happen. Because many women can start their periods while this process is taking place, and most do, it flushes the fertilized eggs out of the body onto sanitary napkins. Because it's impossible for scientists to determine how often this happens, it's estimated between 60 and 80 percent of fertilized eggs are rinsed and flushed out of her body during those deliteful few days she has.
So are women murderers?

its no ones fault.. Was it NASA's fault it couldn't save the astronauts from being incinerated in the Challenger? WTF..What you stated simply happens and your way out of context.. Your way off buddy. How would a woman aware that a fertilized egg might be getting washed out soon even attempt to stop it?

I don't call them babies until they're born, and I don't care what some crazy lady did.

how is your stance going to be based on what is and isn't born when your stance also allows one the privilege of determining if something that will be born shall be born at all? Your playing Sheriff and lawmaker at once which is wrong.

Comparing something that does not have thoughts, feelings, loved ones, hopes, dreams, and complex relationships to a family is idiocy Good Sir.

My great-grandfather had none of those things except 1 by 1997... But what the life of a lone wolf is less then the people guy? Because the loner is anti social or to himself you say? Plenty of people and most elderly people are loners and recluses.. Why should i need to be loved by the likes of you to keep my dementia eaten brained, wobble legged, depressed hopeless ass off the chopping block?

There is a very big difference between preventing the life of person, and ending the live of a person.

thats like saying theres a difference in dunking someone's head under the water and simply closing the top of the pool to prevent them from getting out..

When you bring a child into this world that cannot live a long happy life, you are being irresponsible and cruel.

what would even make it not worthwhile...?and what of those who are unhappy and have truly lived too long...?

 

[HBK-aholic]

I said I wasn't going to get involved in this thread, but there's way too much idiocy going on. First, I'd just like to go to our beloved dictionary to clarify a few things.

1. Murder.
Oxford Dictionary tells me that the definition of murder is 'the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another'. Thus, abortion is not murder. Shall we go through this slowly? Murder is a legal concept, nothing more. If legally, the termination of a foetus is not classed as 'murder' then it is not murder. Argue it's killing if you really want to, but calling abortion murder is something I can easily prove you wrong about, without bringing any personal views into consideration.

Abortion is not murder.

2. Baby.
Oxford dictionary gives a few definitions of 'baby'. 1 a very young child. 2 informal a lover or spouse (often as a form of address). As a foetus is neither a very young child, or a lover or spouse, I can objectively tell you you're wrong calling a foetus a child, again, without bringing any personal views into this.

A foetus is not a baby.

Now that we've clarified terminology, there's also a lot of naivety going on. The first being that some of you seriously believe making abortion illegal, will make abortion stop. It's lovely to think of it that way, isn't it? It's out of your view so you don't have to think about it. But in reality, thousands - maybe millions, of women will simply gain an abortion illegally. We can of course argue that anything that happens to them is their own fault, I've heard many people use that argument - but it's not really the point, is it? I mean, if you're pro-life, all you're condoning is the loss of the women as well as the foetus. And I'm not quite sure how 2 lives being lost is better than none works into your argument for abortion being illegal.

Next, I really can not believe Fury just used the argument 'The foetus could have changed the world'. Sure, it could have been in a good way, but it also could be in a horrible way. What 'could happen' should never be used in a argument such as this, because we just don't know.

Finally, I love that people who believe abortion should be illegal ALWAYS use the 'the vast majority of abortions have no rape component' argument. Again, it's lovely to sweep things under the carpet isn't it? If you don't see it or hear about it, it doesn't happen, right? In reality, rape happens, is life-changing, and sometimes, abortion may be deemed necessary by the victim of that. You can tell me it's a small minority - I don't believe it's the majority of cases, but there are NO realistic statistics on this, and regardless of if the number was 0.0001% or 99.999%, it should be legal, because there is no way civilised societies should be allowed to force a woman to keep a child due to rape.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Im sure everyone is having a time making utter morons of themselves in this thread, but ill go ahead and break this down, in a much less elaborate way than Becca did.

Has to be legal. If it isnt, it will continue to happen with simular frequency, but with much, MUCH less humane means and results. Hey, I love finding an 8 month old fetus in the dumpster as much as anyone, but that shit cant happen.

The legality of it is nothing to dispute, and you look stupid to do so.