Failed by creative? Or did they just suck?

[Miko]

I looked around and didnt see this thread but if it exists elsewhere then. . . . . . well sorry.

Anyway I see people all the time talking about wrestlers who come to the WWE, dont do much and then get released. Saying things like "They could've been better than John Cena" and I thought to myself "Really? Kenny Dykstra could've been the next big thing could he? Elijah Burke was destined for greatness? Charlie Haas could get over if WWE let him do what he does best?".

Lets face it, all of those guys were given huge opportunities and all of them failed to do anything with them. Kenny Dykstra was put into programs with Ric Flair and Carlito beating both of them. Still nobody cared.

Elijah Burke was the leader of the new-breed fueding with the likes of RVD, had a match at WrestleMania and fueded with CM Punk for the ECW Title. Still nobody cared.

Charlie Haas was bought in as one of Kurt Angles protege's, won the tag belts with the even more bland Shelton Benjamin. The team were split and Haas competed for the US belt, he finally got over by teaming with Rico. After Rico got released Haas's fan support went with him. Shame, I like Haas but even I can admit that no one else does.

Paul Burchill teamed with the ever reliable William Regal. The pirate gimmick worked for a while but that lost it's steam. Burchill was redebuted on RAW where he fueded with Mr Kennedy no less and had a good amount of TV time, the even put the incredibly hot Katie Lea on his arm. Still nobody cared. Now he's on ECW losing to up and comers, best thing for him.

What do you think? Is it creatives faul that they cant get over and/or get released? Or do you agree with me and think that they were all given a fair shot but were just shit?

Also if you have any more examples then please post them.

 

[Pimpin]

I think that the reason why those wrestlers flopped was not cause of their wrestling abilities as the names you mentioned are all great in-ring workers but they flopped cause creative doesn't have enough sense to give them a decent gimmick & instead gives them(as in Dykstra's case & Charlie's case) gimmicks that are nothing but a joke. I think in the cases of Elijah Burke & Paul Burchill here, creative just can't(or in Burke's case couldn't) get their heads outta their asses & start putting them over stars who don't deserve to get pushed. Bottom line is that creative just seems that they would rather be lazy instead of just giving the time & effort into building these guys gimmick into better than they were.

 

[Miko]

[QUOTE="Da Xtreme Gangsta" James Baker;921514]I think that the reason why those wrestlers flopped was not cause of their wrestling abilities as the names you mentioned are all great in-ring workers[/QUOTE]

Honestly? I know they can do a few moves and that but as far as working an entertaining style of match then only Haas gets my vote, barely at that.

but they flopped cause creative doesn't have enough sense to give them a decent gimmick & instead gives them(as in Dykstra's case & Charlie's case) gimmicks that are nothing but a joke.

Kenny Dykstra was given a pretty serious gimmick and was put over Carlito and Ric Flair. Charlie Haas on the other hand has only ever been over when he was teaming with a gay man (that angle was brilliant btw) and when he's been impersonating other superstars. Outside of that people dont care about him. Nobody ever cared about Dykstra.

I think in the cases of Elijah Burke & Paul Burchill here, creative just can't(or in Burke's case couldn't) get their heads outta their asses & start putting them over stars who don't deserve to get pushed. Bottom line is that creative just seems that they would rather be lazy instead of just giving the time & effort into building these guys gimmick into better than they were.

Creative gave them both gimmicks, gave them both pushes and TV time. What more do you want? You cant baby these guy's all the way to the top, Burke and Burchill have been given plenty of opportunities to shine, they've just never done anything with it.

Look at it this way, both had gimmicks that were far superior Dallas Page's self help guru. Yet the self help guru became quite successfull whereas both of these guys have flopped. It shows that a genuinely talented worker can make shitty gimmicks work. Burke and Burchill as well as Haas and Dykstra have all got a better hand than Page did in WWE, yet none have done as well.

 

[Pimpin]

Honestly? I know they can do a few moves and that but as far as working an entertaining style of match then only Haas gets my vote, barely at that.



Kenny Dykstra was given a pretty serious gimmick and was put over Carlito and Ric Flair. Charlie Haas on the other hand has only ever been over when he was teaming with a gay man (that angle was brilliant btw) and when he's been impersonating other superstars. Outside of that people dont care about him. Nobody ever cared about Dykstra.



Creative gave them both gimmicks, gave them both pushes and TV time. What more do you want? You cant baby these guy's all the way to the top, Burke and Burchill have been given plenty of opportunities to shine, they've just never done anything with it.

Look at it this way, both had gimmicks that were far superior Dallas Page's self help guru. Yet the self help guru became quite successfull whereas both of these guys have flopped. It shows that a genuinely talented worker can make shitty gimmicks work. Burke and Burchill as well as Haas and Dykstra have all got a better hand than Page did in WWE, yet none have done as well.

If you count Dykstra's last gimmick then yeah it's a serious gimmick but the male cheerleading gimmick was nothing but a joke. Haas has had a few good programs(I think the thing with him, Benjamin & Angle was good & I agree with you on the angle with him & Rico). To me it just doesn't seem like creative gives the time & effort to really make the gimmick good as they are the ones who are booking the thing.

 

[Big Sexy]

Creative gave them both gimmicks, gave them both pushes and TV time. What more do you want? You cant baby these guy's all the way to the top, Burke and Burchill have been given plenty of opportunities to shine, they've just never done anything with it.

I agree with you about Haas, Burchill, and Dykstra, but not Burke. When they made Burke the leader of the new breed he was very over and put on very entertaining matches. Then once the new breed disbanded he was completely ignored. He was one of the most over guys on ECW and they just completely took him off tv. I blame the creative team more then I blame Burke.

Look at it this way, both had gimmicks that were far superior Dallas Page's self help guru. Yet the self help guru became quite successfull whereas both of these guys have flopped. It shows that a genuinely talented worker can make shitty gimmicks work. Burke and Burchill as well as Haas and Dykstra have all got a better hand than Page did in WWE, yet none have done as well.

If having one reign as the European champion and then leaving the WWE is considered successful then yes DDP was very successful with his self help gimmick.

 

[Louie Lips]

Charlie Haas was bought in as one of Kurt Angles protege's, won the tag belts with the even more bland Shelton Benjamin.

Did you seriously just make the claim that Shelton Benjamin is more boring than Charlie Haas? Shelton Benjamin is very athletic, and a great superstar to watch. Go watch what he's done in the MITB matches, and tag team matches with Haas and get back to me.

 

[Miko]

I agree with you about Haas, Burchill, and Dykstra, but not Burke. When they made Burke the leader of the new breed he was very over and put on very entertaining matches. Then once the new breed disbanded he was completely ignored. He was one of the most over guys on ECW and they just completely took him off tv. I blame the creative team more then I blame Burke.

He was the most over member of the new breed, but that wasnt hard considering that his competition was Marcus Cor Von and Kevin Thorne. Even so he still had a fued for the ECW Title in which he really wasnt over, so he wasnt on TV anymore.

If having one reign as the European champion and then leaving the WWE is considered successful then yes DDP was very successful with his self help gimmick.

I said he had a shit gimmick and due to his talent he made it popular. He had a worse deal than any of the so called creative failures and yet still managed to make it popular, that's what I meant by success.

Did you seriously just make the claim that Shelton Benjamin is more boring than Charlie Haas? Shelton Benjamin is very athletic, and a great superstar to watch. Go watch what he's done in the MITB matches, and tag team matches with Haas and get back to me.

Shelton's great at falling and jumping off shit, shame his mic skills suck and his matches that dont involve a ladder of some sort are pretty much boring. The fact that you said

Go watch what he's done in the MITB matches, and tag team matches with Haas and get back to me

shows that he's not much good without a ladder or reliable tag team partner. Not that Haas is much to write home about.

 

[Reverend Truth]

It think the blame goes both ways. Sometimes it's creatives fault and other times it's the wrestlers fault. I would like to think that every performer gives his/her all to their respective characters. I do like Dusty Rhode's old school mentality when it comes to using crappy gimmicks given to a wrestler....."I'm gonna make this work!" While I didn't like the "polka-dot" gimmick with Dusty, I admit that no one else could have "made it work" like Dusty.

 

[Big Sexy]

I said he had a shit gimmick and due to his talent he made it popular. He had a worse deal than any of the so called creative failures and yet still managed to make it popular, that's what I meant by success

He wasn't over because of his talent to make the gimmick work, he was over because he was DDP. He could have come out in a chicken costume and the fans still would have cheered for him.

Even so he still had a fued for the ECW Title in which he really wasnt over, so he wasnt on TV anymore.

I wouldn't call having one title shot a feud. And that is still no reason to take him off tv completely.

 

[Age of Orton]

The problem is the gimmicks these guys are protaying, if they're not comfortable with them then request a change AND give idea's.. hell look at Austin he came in as the ring master had the million dollar belt and hated the gimmick requested a change and within 6 month was feuding with Bret impressive, HHH had his upper class gimmick changed that to the De generate, then changed that to his current, it's all about how much the individual wants change and to progress.

 

[tfs706]

Look at every fan's favorite, Felix Cena debuted beat one of the biggest guys in the company. Which rarely happens in one night, usually taking months to build through the ranks. Orton started out with Holly if you recall

But at some point it was Cenas turn to draw and yeah he got put up against some of the best The E had to offer but he is one of the most (if not the most) recognizable wrestler on the WWE Roster

And while Creative can say "we heard you rapping backstage go do that in the ring about your opponent" it was up to Cena to go out there and get over doing it.

As we all know you have your Hulk Hogans(Charisma & Presence) & you have your Chris Benoits(Great Workers) and then you also have your Jeff Hardys(Spot Monkey who can't talk or put on a fresh match more than once a year tops) not everyone is able to get over based on the same thing. i guess you never know what the fans are gonna buy into

Like why does the same story work for Mikey Whipwreck but not work for Colin Delaney
Why did The Sandman not get over in the WWE like Stone Cold did
Why did Shane Douglas do very little for himself in WWE but make his name in ECW
How come Jericho a guy fighting Alex Wright in WCW can jump to WWE and feud with The Rock

So i would say it depends on the performer, the booker, and chemistry between the two.

 

[Nate DaMac]

wait a minute, shelton benjamin can put on a great singles match. i cant believe anybody would even say otherwise. the one with him and rvd was the shit. the triple threat with him carlito and morrison(not a singles) was awesome. who else in wrestling can leap to the top turnbuckle in a single bound?

 

[bulldog76]

Look at Billy and Chuck. Stupid gimmick that got mainstream attention. Yes, creative has some really dumb ideas but until the wrestler can come up with something different, said wrestler needs to do what they can to get the most out of their current gimmick. Research Undertaker, Kane, and Kevin Nash. These guys went through some less than stellar gimmicks before finding something that fit.

 

[Miko]

He wasn't over because of his talent to make the gimmick work, he was over because he was DDP. He could have come out in a chicken costume and the fans still would have cheered for him.

A better example perhaps, Stone Cold Steve Austin, you could see the guy had what it took even from the begginning as one of the Hollywood Blondes to his days as the Ringmaster, even though he hated The Ringmaster there was star quality about Austin. He gained popularity with both of those gimmicks.

Both are worse gimmicks than what Burke, Haas, Dykstra and Burchill currently have or had. My point is if that these guys had 1 tenth of the talent that Austin or DDP had then they'd have done better with the decent gimmicks they had.

I wouldn't call having one title shot a feud. And that is still no reason to take him off tv completely.

He was on TV for a while regardless, he had plenty of time to make some people care about him. He just couldnt do it.

 

[The Great Gouki]

who else in wrestling can leap to the top turnbuckle in a single bound?

Lance Storm.




ok...just wanna say I joined the forums here JUST to respond to this quote.

Thank you.

Seriously though, sometimes it's all in how you are booked to get over (i.e. Goldberg who was a success), or if you get saddled with a bad gimmick (i.e. Dean Douglas who wasn't a success...although I don't think he was any good anyway). And sometimes you don't live up to expectations (Braden Walker, I'm looking at you...) or have some bad matches (or in the case of Kizarny A bad match).

 

[enigmaticdude]

Look at every fan's favorite, Felix Cena debuted beat one of the biggest guys in the company. Which rarely happens in one night, usually taking months to build through the ranks. Orton started out with Holly if you recall

But at some point it was Cenas turn to draw and yeah he got put up against some of the best The E had to offer but he is one of the most (if not the most) recognizable wrestler on the WWE Roster

And while Creative can say "we heard you rapping backstage go do that in the ring about your opponent" it was up to Cena to go out there and get over doing it.

As we all know you have your Hulk Hogans(Charisma & Presence) & you have your Chris Benoits(Great Workers) and then you also have your Jeff Hardys(Spot Monkey who can't talk or put on a fresh match more than once a year tops) not everyone is able to get over based on the same thing. i guess you never know what the fans are gonna buy into

Like why does the same story work for Mikey Whipwreck but not work for Colin Delaney
Why did The Sandman not get over in the WWE like Stone Cold did
Why did Shane Douglas do very little for himself in WWE but make his name in ECW
How come Jericho a guy fighting Alex Wright in WCW can jump to WWE and feud with The Rock

So i would say it depends on the performer, the booker, and chemistry between the two.

Well, every wrestler has a different style of wrestling. High risk moves, brawling, powerhouse, submission(not too much of that anymore)
and assholes(jbl). Creative had to match up their wrestling styles with their personality to give them a gimmick or a permanent persona.
John Cena came in Very strongly, He put up a great first match against Kurt Angle. From that match on, you knew that he was going to stay in the WWE for a long time. He became the master of thuganomics then the marine.
Jeff Hardy for example puts his body on the line for almost every match he has ever been in. But he is also artistic and very creative in his personal life. An enigma per se. So there is his persona. The extreme enigma (I like Charismatic Enigma better though). He is well over for that and it works for him. Giving him another persona or a short term gimmick that doesn't match that so would not work for him.
Stone Cold Steve Austin was an alcoholic brawler, so his persona was an "awesome redneck go to the bar and beat the hell out of you" type or brawler. He was well over with the fans. I even liked him when he was a heel. The reason The Sandman wasn't over with the WWE is because the WWE already had Stone Cold. If they wanted another Wrestler who also drank, they would have offered Stone Cold his job back.
Triple H is the Cerebral Assassin, he "plays the game" which worked for him too. He is great with submissions, great as a powerhouse and a brawler.
JBL on the other hand is a wall street executive, so they have him play the rich asshole part. Thankfully he is retiring at wrestlemania 25(I really hope so) Anyways, It works for him. If JBL was given Rey Mysterio's persona as a high flying luchador, I doubt that he would make it 1 day with it. It all has to do with what the creative team can do for the wrestler. If they suck than they must curtail that redundancy.
Elijah Burke was destroyed by Batista(I know kayfabe) but still that match that Batista hit his spearbuster on Elijah was the point where the Creative team must have realized "he will never be a main eventer" So they released him because squash matches like that are the point where you can't come back from in the WWE. If you get squashed in your first match in the WWE, that is expected as they have done with almost every wrestler. But if it keeps happening you just can't come back from that.

 

[Miko]

The problem is the gimmicks these guys are protaying, if they're not comfortable with them then request a change AND give idea's.. hell look at Austin he came in as the ring master had the million dollar belt and hated the gimmick requested a change and within 6 month was feuding with Bret impressive, HHH had his upper class gimmick changed that to the De generate, then changed that to his current, it's all about how much the individual wants change and to progress.

This is a good point, HHH and Austin had pretty shitty gimmicks (I would include The Rock but his gimmick wasnt bad, just bad for the time), the thing is they all did the best they could with them, they did pretty well with them as well. The people I've mentioned havent had a bad gimmick outside of the Spirit Squad and once that was done Dykstra had a pretty decent gimmick. It shows that they just didnt have the talent that these guys did.

Look at Billy and Chuck. Stupid gimmick that got mainstream attention. Yes, creative has some really dumb ideas but until the wrestler can come up with something different, said wrestler needs to do what they can to get the most out of their current gimmick. Research Undertaker, Kane, and Kevin Nash. These guys went through some less than stellar gimmicks before finding something that fit.

See this is what I am talking about, Glen Jacobs as Isaac Yankem had potential, Mean Mark Callous had potential. People hate on the gimmicks now but Glen and Mark did a decent job with them at the time. Once they found their niche they were away.

Which goes back to my point about Elijah Burke and that. These guys dont have gimmicks anywhere near as bad as what Kane and Undertaker had, as what HHH and Austin had, yet they couldnt make them work anywhere near as well as these guys did.

 

[CJGV1]

who remembers gunner scott? (im sure that was his name) he had a dq win over booker and seemed to b the protage of benoit but next thing u know hes shipped off back 2 ovw. not every1 gets that huge push after a big win like cena and i would like 2 bet creative has summit to do with it most of the time. i agree with whoever said it can take a while to find the right gimmick. look at fatu or rikishi or watever his name is. ok hes not over now cuz hes not even on tv but when he was he was over big...... no pun intended!

 

[Mitch Henessey]

Well when you look at guys like Colin Delaney, it's easy to say he just sucked. WWE tried the whole underdog gimmick with him, and the fans never responded to him (execpt that on one ECW where he won his contract). They even made him Tommy Dreamer's apprentacie,had him make heel turn so he could face Dreamer in the main event on ECW, and still the fans never responded to him.

 

[tnasuxs]

ecw keeps on bringing lame guys. look they have what mabe 10 people that wrestle still they have tyson kidd dj gabrel rivals they all get their chance so in like maybe a month they will all be gone and they will have new guys. but i do remeber jack swagger on is first try he won gold so he isnt some one like that but he sucks

 

[Gauge Ats]

i think the gimmick that creative failed with was with mordecai...they could have done alot with his character and he had a great feud with the undertaker and in my opinion he really worked the gimmick well and they dropped out on it

 

[Anthonygiz23]

I think both WWE and TNA faild with Tyson Tomko... he was a perfect heel gimmic for a stable.... he could have been Batista or even because his in rings skills are for superior to Batista... I understand the guy was a headcase but he had the build and was decent on the mic!

 

[PDepew2181]

I still think Burchill could have success if they gave him a chance. Heck, he's on ECW, so you'd think the opportunity would be there, but the only heels they showcase on that show are Swagger and Mark "Who am I going to injure next, other than myself" Henry.

I believe the OP mentioned Burchill's feud with Kennedy on Raw last year. Yea, Burchill really dropped that ball on that one. I mean, he went out and attacked Kennedy from behind, and there was a genuine reaction from the live crowd. They were booing the hell out of him because Kennedy is so over. So what happens next? They have a singles match and Kennedy wins. WRONG!!!! If you're giving a crap about how you're booking, Burchill wins that match. As soon as he loses, why should anyone think he could win a rematch? In this case, either creative or the road agents or whoever came up with that match dropped that ball. If my memory serves, Burchill was back to jobbing the next week and never got pushed again on Raw.

So that is definitely a case of creative or someone screwing the talent.

 

[enigmaticdude]

Lets not forget about the dress wearing Vito. I think the WWE's take on Perry Saturn was a bit stale and it didn't stand out with me. I am pretty sure that creative screwed up with a bouncer looking guy in a dress and panties. What a flop.

 

[My$terio_Fan]

I think it works both ways. There are alot of superstars that just don't stick out maybe because it's their lack of natural charisma, in-ring ability, or anything and no matter how much their are pushed they still suck.

A great example would be a guy like Snitsky. When he came back to Raw after ECW, he was pushed as a monster. He destroyed jobbers and even a few midcarders and always was featured. Creative tried hard to make the audience care, but nobody did.

Then theirs a guy like Kenny Dykstra. He seemed to have it all. He had charisma, he was naturally cocky, had a good look, and wasn't horrible in the ring. And while he didn't have enough talent to be a maineventer or anything special he had some talent. People boo'd and cared about him when he was feuding with Flair and when creative stepped up his character. But after the Flair thing, he really wasn't given anything decent by creative to elevate his game.

While he might not have been worth creative's time he still could have been a decent midcard heel if pushed right. But creative just "dropped" the ball on him and decided to push the likes of Snitsky, Hardcore Holly, Chuck Palambo, and others who really either didn't have the talent or who just plain sucked at everything they did.

So while sometimes no matter how hard creative tries to get someone over, they still fail. But there are some guys who if given a break/chance to naturally progress and grow could be something.

This topic reminds me of CM Punk. While he probably wasn't ready to have the belt and probably wouldn't have been a huge notable champ, if creative didn't make him seem weak and unworthy the reign could have went better. Like I said it works both ways.