ECW Region, Third Round, Last Man Standing Match: (4) Ric Flair vs. (12) Randy Orton

[Peoples_Champ]

This match up would be excellent to watch. Legend against legend killer. It's hard to keep Flair's legacy in mind while trying to ignore his later years. The point about Flair working the leg and literally preventing Orton from standing up is valid, but Orton is called the legend killer for a reason.

Orton hits an RKO out of nowhere, Flair struggles back to his feet. He gets up at the count of 7. Orton, in disbelief hits another RKO. Flair is in worse trouble and is almost out. Orton backs up to the corner, sees Flair at the count of 8 on all fours trying to stand. Orton hears voices in his head. They talk to him. He runs in and punts Flair in the side of the head, nearly knocking it clear off his shoulders. Flair doesn't get up.

I'm going with Orton. This match favours him as opposed to the many, many others that would have favoured Flair.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

Orton is 2-1 in Last Man Standing matches as far as I know having won against Triple H and Punk and having lost to Triple H as well when he suffered a legitimate injury. I know Ric Flair is a tough motherfucker and has been in his share of bloody brawls but I do feel that this is the sort of stipulation that more often than not favours the face. Look at the words. Last. Man. Standing. That sounds like the final match you would have in a very personal feud. Flair put people over especially babyfaces whom he thought were capable of "being the man". Orton is the guy who probably outpops everyone in present day WWE. This is Orton's prime and I do not think Flair would have any problem in putting Orton over in his prime.

The other thing that has made me vote for Orton are their finishers. An RKO on a chair or something can knock you out for ten seconds but I do not feel that a figure four, no matter how much work Flair has done on the leg, can keep a guy from standing up for ten seconds. I do not think a chairshot or any other weapon shot would get Orton because Orton is also booked as a tough motherfucker.

Oh and finally, I read something about Orton having some trouble with a past his prime Flair in a cage match. That is true but you have to remember that:

1. Orton won

2. That was not Orton's prime either. 2010-2012 has been Orton's prime and I think that in this scenario he can go toe to toe with the nature boy at his best.

Winner: Orton.

 

[Big Sexy]

I really don't get the argument that Flair doesn't have enough "impact" moves to keep Orton down. Last time I checked this match is anything goes meaning chairs, tables, outside interference, etc are all factors and all have enough "impact" to keep Orton down.

I'm also wondering if you guys have forgotten Survivor Series 2005 when a 56 year old Ric Flair fought Triple H in a LMS match. While Flair didn't win, he did put on a great performance and at one point had Triple H down for a count of 9. If a 56 year old Ric Flair can keep Triple H down for 9 seconds, then I guarantee a prime Ric Flair can keep Orton down for 10.

 

[JGlass]

Orton is in the lead right now, and that's just absolutely ridiculous. I can only chalk it up to fools being mislead by ignorance and liars that would have you forget that Ric Flair made his name on endurance. Well, that and being an asshole.

You know why Ric Flair was a legendary NWA Champion? Because he fucking held onto that belt tooth and claw when he was all but guaranteed to lose it. You know how he held onto it? By not losing. That's right, he didn't always win, he just managed to not lose. He did that by taking his opponents to draws over, and over, and over again. And it's not any wrestling a midcarder to 20 minute type draw, it's a main eventer vs. main eventer pounding away at each other for 45-60 minute type of draw.

When has Randy Orton ever lasted remotely that long in the ring? Never, that's when.

And this lack of impact from Ric Flair argument? You don't have to hit a powerbomb or a bodyslam to win a last man standing match, you just need to make sure your opponent doesn't get up. John Cena won one by duct taping Bastista to the ring. Surely, a guy who uses a leg submission hold for his finisher can make sure Randy Orton doesn't answer the 10 count.

If Randy Orton wins this, it will likely be the biggest crime of the tournament thus far. Besides him going over Terry Funk in the ECW arena.

Looks like we found this year's Edge.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

I really don't get the argument that Flair doesn't have enough "impact" moves to keep Orton down. Last time I checked this match is anything goes meaning chairs, tables, outside interference, etc are all factors and all have enough "impact" to keep Orton down.

I'm also wondering if you guys have forgotten Survivor Series 2005 when a 56 year old Ric Flair fought Triple H in a LMS match. While Flair didn't win, he did put on a great performance and at one point had Triple H down for a count of 9. If a 56 year old Ric Flair can keep Triple H down for 9 seconds, then I guarantee a prime Ric Flair can keep Orton down for 10.

But Orton can use chairs, tables and outside interference as well. And Orton has the RKO too. It is not as if only one guy can use weapons in this environment, so the use of weapons is not something that strengthens Flair's case. If anything, they favor Orton because Orton is certainly the more vicious of the two.

Also while Flair may have taken Triple H to the limit in an LMS match, Orton actually beat Triple H in 2007. While Flair may not have been in his prime, I would argue that 2007 was not Orton's prime either. He hit his prime when he turned face in 2010.

Also, about the leg submission argument, has it ever happened before? I mean, has the figure four ever kept a guy down for 10 seconds or more. I don't know but if it has not happened till this point then I am pretty sure that it would not happen again.

 

[thatotherguy]

Oh and finally, I read something about Orton having some trouble with a past his prime Flair in a cage match. That is true but you have to remember that:

1. Orton won

2. That was not Orton's prime either. 2010-2012 has been Orton's prime and I think that in this scenario he can go toe to toe with the nature boy at his best.

Alright hang on a second. That match happened in 2007. If you're calling 2010-2012 Orton's prime then that's only 3 years away from Orton's prime. At that point Randy Orton is a rising star who won more matches than he lost. Ric Flair's prime ended, at the latest in 1995. That puts Flair 12 years out of his prime in 2007. (Also, in most cases, younger guys do better than older guys (yes there are exceptions)).

Regardless, in 2007, Flair was a lot further away from his prime than Orton. The Ric Flair wasn't in his prime argument holds water here because Ric Flair was in the twilight of his career while Randy Orton was a rising star.

 

[JGlass]

But Orton can use chairs, tables and outside interference as well. And Orton has the RKO too. It is not as if only one guy can use weapons in this environment, so the use of weapons is not something that strengthens Flair's case. If anything, they favor Orton because Orton is certainly the more vicious of the two.

I'd take Flair's 4 horsemen for back up over Orton's Rhodes and DiBiase any day of the week.

I'm leaving Evolution out of that equation, because both participants were members.

Also while Flair may have taken Triple H to the limit in an LMS match, Orton actually beat Triple H in 2007. While Flair may not have been in his prime, I would argue that 2007 was not Orton's prime either. He hit his prime when he turned face in 2010.

Orton was a lot closer to his prime than Flair was to his.

Also, about the leg submission argument, has it ever happened before? I mean, has the figure four ever kept a guy down for 10 seconds or more. I don't know but if it has not happened till this point then I am pretty sure that it would not happen again.

When you have 45-60 minutes of match time to fill, you're damn right it did. But even that's beside the point: the Figure Four doesn't have to be the thing that keeps Orton down, it's just one of the factors. To answer the 10 count, you have to stand up on both feet, and I think it's under your own strength, so no ropes for help. It's going to be hard to do that if your legs feel like jello.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

Alright hang on a second. That match happened in 2007. If you're calling 2010-2012 Orton's prime then that's only 3 years away from Orton's prime. At that point Randy Orton is a rising star who won more matches than he lost. Ric Flair's prime ended, at the latest in 1995. That puts Flair 12 years out of his prime in 2007. (Also, in most cases, younger guys do better than older guys (yes there are exceptions)).

And Flair was someone who was a certified legend by that point and we both know that once you become a legend, you are booked in a certain way. No matter how pathetic and out of shape you are you will always be booked to come close to winning in most matches before ultimately losing. That is just the way the business works.

Point being, when you are talking about who would win the match if they were to wrestle in their respective primes, talking about what they did outside their primes is of no consequence.

I'd take Flair's 4 horsemen for back up over Orton's Rhodes and DiBiase any day of the week.

I'm leaving Evolution out of that equation, because both participants were members.

And Orton has shown time and again that he can deal with interference pretty well like he did against both Nexus and New Nexus.

When you have 45-60 minutes of match time to fill, you're damn right it did. But even that's beside the point: the Figure Four doesn't have to be the thing that keeps Orton down, it's just one of the factors. To answer the 10 count, you have to stand up on both feet, and I think it's under your own strength, so no ropes for help. It's going to be hard to do that if your legs feel like jello.

1. I would still like to see some proof of it happening.

2. The match need not go 45-60 minutes.

3. It is a different scenario laying around when you do it in a normal match wherein you may just be taking a breather as compared to an LMS match where the outcome of the match hinges on if you can get up or not.

4. Orton has been in the ring against the likes of Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Kurt Angle and John Cena, all of whom who have painful submission finishers that target the leg. None of their finishers have kept Orton down for a long period of time, certainly not over 10 seconds. All these guys are resilient as well in their own right and yet that has not stopped Orton from chalking up wins against them.

 

[aza1294]

Flair would compete in 60 minute matches night in, night out. He can definetly take punishment. That being said Orton also can take his share of hits, but flair would outlast him. Flair advances

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Flair would compete in 60 minute matches night in, night out. He can definetly take punishment. That being said Orton also can take his share of hits, but flair would outlast him. Flair advances

AAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH




Can some please for the love of holy fuck just post all the LMS time spans, because I am truly, TRULY sick and tired of hearing this over and over!!!!



Here I will put it out on the table for ya!


Repeated Steel Chair Shots + Steel Step Shots + Bleeding To Death + Announcer Table Spot /= Infinite Stamina




The punishment in a LMS is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more brutal, and at a faster pace than a 60-minute match. Don't come in here and go 'Omfg he diss the 60 minute thing of flairs havings awesome stamina!!!'. Try and get this stamina and pain-endurance are not the same thing here.



Am I saying Ric Flair can't take it? Fuck no. He would have fantastic LMS matches. But in a kayfabe world, like I said before, Randy's PERSONA is just too sadistic to lose to someone who will be the whipping boy for most part of the match. He has lost his share, but to physically dominating, power wrestlers.

 

[Big Sexy]

But Orton can use chairs, tables and outside interference as well. And Orton has the RKO too. It is not as if only one guy can use weapons in this environment, so the use of weapons is not something that strengthens Flair's case. If anything, they favor Orton because Orton is certainly the more vicious of the two.

I never said Orton couldn't use weapons. I was simply showing that Flair being able to use weapons gives him plenty of impact ways to beat Orton in this match. Saying Flair can't keep him down due to a lack of impact moves is a silly argument.

Also while Flair may have taken Triple H to the limit in an LMS match, Orton actually beat Triple H in 2007. While Flair may not have been in his prime, I would argue that 2007 was not Orton's prime either. He hit his prime when he turned face in 2010.

Maybe if Triple H had wrestled an extra match before facing Flair like he did before facing Orton, then that would have given Flair the little extra push he needed to beat Triple H. As far as primes go we can argue that all day but in 2007 Orton was still a main event talent and was near his prime. At age 56, Flair was over 10 years removed from anything even resembling a prime.

 

[Uncle Sam]

If we're to consider that Orton won't be able to pull himself up with the ropes - or get up under his own power - after a figure four, or that Flair will be able to 'endure' getting kicked in the head because he had long matches, then I have a few arguments of my own to make:

1. Orton offers Flair $20 to lie down. Flair, infamously perpetually indebted, has no choice but to accept. After the match, Flair sucks Orton's cock for an extra $10. Space Mountain indeed!
2. Flair sells so hard that he falls unconscious. Orton hits him with a right hand or something else seemingly innocuous; Flair does a triple somersault, marches around the ring, vomits up blood and passes out.
3. Flair offers Orton some weed. Orton, unable to overcome his addictions, tearfully smokes up in the middle of the ring, then has a nice relaxing nap, during which the referee counts him out.
4. Flair is arrested for distribution, and goes to prison. Orton receives a bye.
5. Flair somehow raises bail. Orton is fired for smoking weed on national television. Flair receives a bye.

It's a minefield.

 

[Davi323]

Kayfabe, Flair in his prime would have the Horsemen in his corner. This is a guy that cheated consistently, why wouldn't he cheat here? The thing about Last Man Standing matches is that they are no-DQ. That means Horsemen interference galore. It means not only does Orton have to contend with having his legs taken from him by repeated Figure 4 leg locks, but he also has to contend with getting a DDT or Spinebuster from AA, getting piledriven by Tully Blanchard, etc. Unless you want to say Orton was in his prime during his days in Evolution, he wouldn't have equalizing strength of numbers. Of course, even if you do allow for Evolution, they would be a member down, since it stands to reason that Ric Flair wouldn't help Randy Orton beat himself, it would just be HHH and Batista. The Horsemen still have the advantage.

This match isn't Orton vs. Flair, it's Orton vs. Flair & the Horsemen. So far, Ric Flair has gotten a huge advantage for getting into the ECW region, because it allows him to take full advantage of these no-DQ type of matches, and a Last Man Standing match does nothing to change that advantage.

When the rules allow you to cheat without penalty, Ric Flair will. It's that simple. He is the dirtiest player in the game for a reason. There is no way that Ric Flair would leave the Horsemen at home for a match like this, with the rules of the match being what they are. The Horsemen get involved, they beat down Orton, they prop Flair up to prevent him from getting counted out, etc. You put Ric Flair in any kind of no-DQ match against an opponent who doesn't have a stable to back him up, he will always win because he has the Horsemen, his opponent doesn't.

 

[JGlass]

1. I would still like to see some proof of it happening.

Go to YouTube and find a Ric Flair match that ran 45-60 minutes.

2. The match need not go 45-60 minutes.

No, but if Ric Flair can't be kept down for a three count after 45 minutes, what makes you think he can be kept down for a ten count after 10?

3. It is a different scenario laying around when you do it in a normal match wherein you may just be taking a breather as compared to an LMS match where the outcome of the match hinges on if you can get up or not.

They may be... but they're not. They couldn't get up because their legs were busted up by Flair.

4. Orton has been in the ring against the likes of Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Kurt Angle and John Cena, all of whom who have painful submission finishers that target the leg. None of their finishers have kept Orton down for a long period of time, certainly not over 10 seconds. All these guys are resilient as well in their own right and yet that has not stopped Orton from chalking up wins against them.

Benoit and Jericho don't have leg submissions. Benoit's targets the arm and head, and Jericho's targets the lower back. The STF doesn't focus on the leg either.

And once again, it doesn't have to be the submission that keeps him down. I'm not suggesting that Ric Flair put the Figure 4 on Orton, get up after keeping it on for 5 minutes, and watch Orton roll around on the ground like a fish out of water.

What I'm suggesting is that Flair continually uses the Figure 4 throughout the match to weaken Orton's legs to the point where, after a more brutal move like a chair shot or a suplex onto the steel steps, Orton won't be able to stand up under his own power.

Flair has Orton outclassed here.

 

[justinsayne]

A few things

1-Promo skills me jack shit here (or really any match for that matter), the only way promo skills would help Flair win would be if he some how manged to talk Randy into forfeiting, that's not going to happen

2- Four Horsemen are really not much of a factor either, if Flair gets the Horsemen to interfere then what's stopping Randy from getting Evolution to interfere, or Edge, or Legacy.

 

[Davi323]

2- Four Horsemen are really not much of a factor either, if Flair gets the Horsemen to interfere then what's stopping Randy from getting Evolution to interfere, or Edge, or Legacy.

When do you consider Randy Orton to be in his prime? There are 3 possibilities:

1. Orton as Legend Killer/Viper/Apex Predator, post Evolution/Legacy. That Randy Orton does not have a stable to back him up, and would be alone. Advantage Flair and the Horsemen.

2. Orton as Evolution member, just starting to get his first real push as an upper midcarder? If so, then you have Triple H, Batista and Ric Flair as the other members. Do you mean to suggest that Ric Flair would help Randy Orton beat Ric Flair? That doesn't seem very likely, does it? So if Orton has Evolution in his corner, he is still at a disadvantage, because one of the members would refuse to fight. It's also the same Evolution that completely betrayed Randy Orton just as he was coming in to his own. Those are the guys you want in Orton's corner? Advantage Flair and the Horsemen.

3. Orton as Leader/manipulator of Legacy? Cody Rhodes has done pretty well as a solid upper midcarder now...but in Legacy, both him and DiBiase were lower tier wrestlers only thrown in with Orton in an attempt to give them a little bit of legitimacy. Do you really think that Rhodes and DiBiase would be a good counter to Arn Anderson, Tully Blanchard and either Ole Anderson or Barry Windham? Two inexperienced rookies against the Four Horsemen? Advantage Flair and the Horsemen.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

I never said Orton couldn't use weapons. I was simply showing that Flair being able to use weapons gives him plenty of impact ways to beat Orton in this match. Saying Flair can't keep him down due to a lack of impact moves is a silly argument.

Theoretically, he can win by using weapons but practically, it does not often come to fruition. Orton has been in hardcore matches with plently of wrestlers, quite a few of them being much stronger than Flair and weapons have not kept him down. The few that he has lost have been by getting hit with some huge impact move. That is generally how these matches are booked anyway. Also the use of weapons does not really favour Flair as he was not really a vicious wrestler like Orton.

Maybe if Triple H had wrestled an extra match before facing Flair like he did before facing Orton, then that would have given Flair the little extra push he needed to beat Triple H.

Triple H beat Umaga in 6 minutes and also got to rest for a while because there were three matches after that match. I think he got plenty of time to rest. Also, Orton won the match clean even though he was a heel which should matter a ton here. Just shows you how lethal he is in this environment considering the fact that he defeated someone who has a great record in hardcore styled matches.

As far as primes go we can argue that all day but in 2007 Orton was still a main event talent and was near his prime. At age 56, Flair was over 10 years removed from anything even resembling a prime.

Already dealt with this. Orton may have been a main event talent then but Flair was a legend when he fought HHH and legends are always booked to have close matches no matter what physical shape they may be in. As such when you are arguing who would win this match in their primes, such an argument is of little consequence.

 

[Big Sexy]

Theoretically, he can win by using weapons but practically, it does not often come to fruition. Orton has been in hardcore matches with plently of wrestlers, quite a few of them being much stronger than Flair and weapons have not kept him down. The few that he has lost have been by getting hit with some huge impact move. That is generally how these matches are booked anyway. Also the use of weapons does not really favour Flair as he was not really a vicious wrestler like Orton.

The LMS match that Orton lost to Triple H, he was down for the 10 count because of a sledge hammer shot. There's an example of a weapon keeping Orton down in this exact same match type.

Triple H beat Umaga in 6 minutes and also got to rest for a while because there were three matches after that match. I think he got plenty of time to rest. Also, Orton won the match clean even though he was a heel which should matter a ton here. Just shows you how lethal he is in this environment considering the fact that he defeated someone who has a great record in hardcore styled matches.

6 minutes with a three hundred pound Samoan Bulldozer is going to take something out of you even with time to rest. The match Orton and Triple H had to end the night was extremely close and every bit of energy could have helped.

Already dealt with this. Orton may have been a main event talent then but Flair was a legend when he fought HHH and legends are always booked to have close matches no matter what physical shape they may be in. As such when you are arguing who would win this match in their primes, such an argument is of little consequence.

Bullshit. Not all legends are booked to go toe to toe with arguably the top guy in the company at that time in a match as ruthless as a LMS match. Ric Flair was a 56 year old man who was losing to the likes of Shelton Benjamin and Kenny Dykstra around that same time period. He kept it close with an all time great 20 years his junior in a LMS match because Flair always rose up on the biggest stages. At 56 he wasn't able to pull off the upset but in his prime, in the same type of match, on this big of a stage, Ric Flair would find a way to win like he almost always did when he had to. Flair would lose this match to a handful of guys but Randy Orton is not one of them.

 

[JGlass]

Already dealt with this. Orton may have been a main event talent then but Flair was a legend when he fought HHH and legends are always booked to have close matches no matter what physical shape they may be in. As such when you are arguing who would win this match in their primes, such an argument is of little consequence.

That's true, I mean, look at Jerry Lawler's match against Daniel Bryan on Raw Monday night, every guy not named Ricky Steamboat who wrestled against Jericho at WrestleMania 25.

Legends don't always get booked to look tough. Ric Flair gets booked to look tough, because that's the type of wrestler he is, the kind that's impossible to keep down.

 

[steve_smith]

WHAT!!!!

The vote is 40-34 at the moment. I can't believe it's this close.

You've got GOD vs. an upper mid-carder in a (currently) bland and boring WWE.

 

[pumpkinking8987]

If this was a first blood match Orton wins for sure, no one bleeds easier than Flair. Eventhough he has done his best to ruin his legacy (like Jerry Rice playing for the Seahawks) Flair still gets my vote. In 5 years when Randy has 6 more title runs, and Flair has 10 more LAST MATCHES Orton would get my vote.

 

[nightmare]

Ummmm, so we have brought factions\managers into the mix eh?

If people think for a second that Evolution would choose Orton over helping Flair you are nuts. Remember when Batista, Flair and HHH took Orton out? Remember the fact that HHH and Flair are best buddies? So Orton has Legacy and maybe his dad. So fn what. HHH and the 4 horsemen plus Fourtune, beat out anyone that Orton could have as backup.


That leaves Orton and crew beat by a large group of talent. Orton will be busted up bad. Flair- original ultimate opportunist, will have the win here. Orton after taking a great beating may still be able to hit the RKO, but Flair would rip out his fingernails crawling to his feet. Half-assed RKO and Orton staggering on one leg for a punt wont keep Flair down.


With a crimson mask and a 'WOOOOOOOO!!!!!'- Ric Flair moves on.

 

[JJYanks121]

There's an old addage and I might be paraphrasing but here goes:

"To be a 16 time champion, you have to lose the title 16 times as well".

In the time period we are talking about, people had longer title reigns. Thus, Flair lost more than any other champion of his time. It's not as though he was some unbeatable guy in his prime. He was good, but not unbeatable. In fact, if you got him into a situation he couldn't escape when he was a heel, he'd generally lose. I know he's known now to always get up with a bloody face and stumble around so it seems tough or whatever, but he's not one of the old school tough guys. Far from it actually. He's an old school manipulator and basically invented getting himself DQ'd ti keep a title. He's a coward at heart so this match stipulation absolutely goes against his forte in his prime.

That's why I don't understand the voting. Over time, and probably because of his longevity, people have gotten this notion that he is unquestionably the best in every situation and that's simply not true. Great entertainer, but not a tough guy. That's why he had Arn around in his Horsemen days. Still, throw whomever you want out there and I still think Orton wins this. I've seen him RKO like 10 straight people so I think he's capable of withstanding a couple of run ins. He's sadistic, brutal, and as a babyface he's quite dominant. I know the arguments will be single victories but if there's a big match to close a feud, he's not losing. This is a big match in a tournament where the stipulation is favoring him due to him simply being more brutal and more willing to inflict pain on his opponent. He's not losing here.

Vote Orton.

No seriously, do it now because he should be winning this vote.

 

[The 1-2-3 Killam]

Point: Ric Flair would have an equal amount of high-impact opportunities, given that weapons are not only legal, but an essential part of the match.

Counter-point: Considering that both men can use weapons, doesn't that pretty much keep them on an even playing field? It's not as if Last Man Standing matches are notorious for being constant weapon bashes. Most of the match is still spent executing your moveset until the opponent can't get up. So again, it comes down to that Orton has the higher impact moveset with a Hangman's DDT, running power slam, superplex, backbreaker, RKO, Punt, etc. If you put both of them in the ring for 20 minutes, assuming Flair doesn't make Orton tap before then (which is irrelevant in this enivironment anyway), Orton is going to wear Flair down quicker than the opposite.​

Point: Flair is a crazy mufucka that will keep getting up and taking punishment, eventually finding an opportunity to win.

Counter-point: Not actually true. Flair is a crazy mufucka, and he can take one hell of a beating, but he doesn't ALWAYS get back up for me. Case-in-point, their Steel Cage match after the downfall of Evolution. Randy Orton took a beating, including a brutal shot from brass knucks, and still kicked out. Flair took a beating as well, and eventually he fell to the RKO. In my mind, if you can't kick out 1-2-3 in a big match, there's little chance you'll answer the 10 count when there's nothing pinning and/or holding you to the ground. And before somebody makes the comment that Ric Flair was far-removed from his prime by the time that match rolled around, I want to counter by saying that Orton wasn't even close to reaching his prime. He was already the "Legend Killer", but he never became a true face/heel of the company until he became "The Viper" and beat guys like John Cena and Triple H (the second time). When he beat Ric Flair, adding his name to the Legend Wall, he was still somewhat of an underdog.​

Point: Flair in his prime would have The Horsemen to back him up, especially with no DQ in effect, and they would collectively be too much for Orton to handle.

Counter-Point: Fair enough... Except that Orton isn't just a meathead heavyweight wrestler. He learned from two of the all-time greats in Flair and Triple H (another point in Orton's favor...). He's just as cerebral as both of them, if not more, and has proven that he can win despite just about any odds. A recent example of this is his WrestleMania 27 feud with CM Punk. Now, in no way am I saying that the New Nexus is even remotely comparable to the Horsemen, but Orton knew the numbers game would eventually get him. ANd so, instead of doing what most dumb faces would do and barrel in there despite the odds, he punted each member of the New Nexus straight to hell, making sure it was just Punk and Orton at WrestleMania. Again, the two teams aren't even playing the same game, but the point is clear that Orton isn't a moron and would have thought of a way to even the odds before this match even took place.

-High impact moves
-Past victories over Flair before his prime
-Beat both John Cena and Triple H at WrestleMania
-Has beaten Shawn Michaels
-Experience faces the best legends in the company
-Experience in Last Man Standing matches
-Can and will even the odds
-Has the Punt in his arsenal, if all else fails

Vote: Randy Orton

 

[LSN80]

No, but if Ric Flair can't be kept down for a three count after 45 minutes, what makes you think he can be kept down for a ten count after 10?

What you're describing are normal wrestling matches. No big deal, plenty of people are making that same mistake. Last Man Standing matches are fights, plain and simple. It's not about hitting one move and keeping someone down for 3, it's about doing so for 10.

They may be... but they're not. They couldn't get up because their legs were busted up by Flair.

Who exactly hasn't gotten up, has had to be stretchered out, because of a Ric Flair figure four? I can't think of anyone.

Benoit and Jericho don't have leg submissions. Benoit's targets the arm and head, and Jericho's targets the lower back. The STF doesn't focus on the leg either.

Benoit used the sharpshooter as well as the crossface. What does the sharpshooter target, exactly? Yet Orton was never beaten by Benoit in single's competiton. Flair was.

And once again, it doesn't have to be the submission that keeps him down. I'm not suggesting that Ric Flair put the Figure 4 on Orton, get up after keeping it on for 5 minutes, and watch Orton roll around on the ground like a fish out of water.

Fair enough point, you're among the first to make the connection between that and....

What I'm suggesting is that Flair continually uses the Figure 4 throughout the match to weaken Orton's legs to the point where, after a more brutal move like a chair shot or a suplex onto the steel steps, Orton won't be able to stand up under his own power

.

While this would be an effective strategy, would this work against Orton? It's far more likely that Orton is going to be able to hit the RKO and the punt. which would keep Flair down and has seen many wrestlers carted off, or a hypothetical situation that may or may not work on Orton?

Flair has Orton outclassed here.

Not in this match he doesn't.