ECW Region, Third Round, Last Man Standing Match: (4) Ric Flair vs. (12) Randy Orton

[Hollywood Naitch]

FUCK! This would have been a match of the year candidate for sure!

Two of the dirtiest players ever to step in a wrestling ring, both capable of being as brutal as anyone and doing anything it takes to win a match. This one would have been a war.

The Nature Boy is very experienced in this type of environment, but then so is Orton. Both guys are two of the most successful ever, so that argument is taken away for me too. Orton can take a hell of a lot of punishment and come back for more, but so can Ric Flair. The guy has been through so many wars in his career.

This match comes down to a single move for each wrestler:

Flair: The Figure Four. This match requires a guy to get to his feet before the count of 10. If Flair can lock in his hold for any length of time, and work on Orton's legs during the rest of the match, a wounded Orton may struggle to stand...

Orton: The Punt. The RKO is awesome, and can be hit from anywhere, but I could see Flair getting up after it. The question is, would Orton be physically able to get up in time to kick Flair's head off. If he did, Naitch wouldn't be getting up.

I am torn here. I can't decide. I need to read more arguments before I choose.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Orton was vicious. Vicious in his Aryan Viper run. I was digging the whole over-the-top snakey, slithery (almost quite literally) actions of his at the time. The epitome of evil...well till he ran into a Hammer-wielding, domestically abusing Hunter.All I'm saying, he most certainly can dish it out like a mother.



And then there is Flair. He bled, and begged, and low-blowed, and pulled the tights; man did everything to win. He went up against these badasses and brawlers (looking at you Funkster) and still would manage to somehow win.



At first my mind just said, Orton. Has to be. He will mutilate Flair and keep him down. If Flair keeps getting up he might do something brutal and bury Flair in steel and sets (ala Jericho/Kane, Henry/Cena). I'm going with Orton. His stamina I don't think is an issue here, but it is a dastardly villain against an evil evil man for me.


I see evil.






Had to.

 

[Theatom]

I can imagine this being one of the greats, this match could go either way, flair has his dirty tactics to try to keep Orton down but Orton has the element of surprise on his side, I would have to go with Randy Orton, Orton learned his cheap shots from flair. Orton knows flair's move arsenal which gives Orton a huge advantage.

 

[FunKay the Inevitable]

Right before we continue can I just ask; when did Ric Flair break someone's leg? The only record I have of him breaking anyone's leg is Dusty Rhodes' and he not only had assistance from the Horsemen, but he did it with a freaking knee drop. That's not going to happen with Orton. If Flair tried that on Orton he'd likely get dropped with an RKO for his troubles. Orton's cold, calculating and has a vast amount of experience in this match losing only the once and that was off a collar-bone break. I'm voting for Orton because I prefer him to Flair. There is more to it than that, but I'm not going to post that up, not just yet anyway.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Is there anyone in history who has been able to take more of a pasting than Flair and still win? I don't like either of them, so I hope they both lose, but there's no way I could see Orton winning this. Yes, he could dole out punishment all day, and yes he could probably hit an RKO, but finishers alone almost never win these matches. Flair is more cunning and more resilient, so he'd definitely win in my eyes.

Now when you mean finishers alone, do you mean in the ring unaided by anything? Orton has won a LMS with a RKO onto the announce table and another win came with a RKO from the top rope. I can easily see Randy Orton giving Flair a couple of RKO's onto a steel chair.

 

[Tastycles]

The whole point of an RKO is that it comes from nowhere the head hits the shoulder. How the fuck is he supposed to do it on a chair? Somehow I think Flair might see something coming if Orton is walking around with a chair on his shoulder...

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

The whole point of an RKO is that it comes from nowhere the head hits the shoulder. How the fuck is he supposed to do it on a chair? Somehow I think Flair might see something coming if Orton is walking around with a chair on his shoulder...

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[Big Nick Dudley]

I understand my reputation as a massive Orton mark precedes me. However, Orton is only my favorite current wrestler. Flair is one of my five favorite wrestlers of all time. Translation, to the dopes - I like Flair more than I do Orton. So when I say Orton should win, it's coming from a kayfabe stance. Figured I'd point that out before the masses accuse me of being a huge mark.

Orton wins, and I can't find a solid reason to say otherwise. Flair is probably (kayfabe) the smartest, most clever heel we have ever seen. When he goes against babyface meatheads like Luger, Sting, Dusty, Hogan, Savage or any other guy you can think of, he usually has a solid chance of pulling out the win. However, that's not Randy Orton.

For a solid portion of Orton's career, he was a lot like Flair, just twice as physical. Orton may receive cheers right now, but don't kid yourself, he's not a true babyface. Translation - he's not an idiot (kayfabe).

He's not as clever as Flair, but he's just as mean, and he's twice the athlete. I can't find a good reason for Flair to go over. If you're voting for who the best of all time is, Flair wins, no question. If that's true, he should be voted ahead of everyone outside of Hogan and Austin.

If you're voting for who would win this match, vote Orton.

 

[Larry]

My head is fucking spinning with this one. Normally I am pretty decided for the most part, maybe I fool around with a few things in my head and decide what is most likely, but here I am stumped. There have been too many really good arguments from both sides for me to really be sure one way or the other. You can't discount Flair, and really, the stipulation does help Orton here making it closer than it would be otherwise. This is a real toughy.

I'm not always the most humble guy, but I have to take a step backwards right now and just say "Wow, you guys!" These arguments have been so good in this one I just can't make a decision right now. I will have to wait and see what the polls look like and what other arguments come up. I just can't come to a conclusion yet.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Obscure fact - I used to work in the Intellectual Property Office. Boring work, but it paid well and I could do it. One day this tall, well tanned gentlemen comes in. I mean, he wasn't black, he was white but just weirdly dark - you know the sort. He stands there a moment, sees that I'm free and walks up to my desk:

"Hello, good sir - how can I help?"

"Hello there! Why, I've been working very hard on an idea and would like to benefit from it financially. My wife suggested I should patent it and I thought that a jolly good idea."

"Well, sir, you have indeed come to the right place. May I ask what this idea of yours is?"

"Certainly, my good man! Why here - I've drawn a diagram."

The man handed me a crude sketch. The motherfucker only wanted to patent kicking people in the head! How fucking weird is that? You can't even fucking patent that. "Randy Orton's Patented Punt" he wanted to call it. I called the fucking cops.

That Orton's wins over Triple H and Punk came at the hands of the RKO and not the punt frankly bemuses me. Ten seconds? Most people don't get up for a month.

I do have a question, and this is a genuine question, about Flair: Has anyone actually failed to get up after a figure four? Not tapped out, not sold a knee injury, not fallen over after they've tried to run the ropes, but actually failed to get up?

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

I'm going with Slic Ric because I can see one great benefit that he has in this style of bout. Randy, whether face or heel, does stand and fight irrespective - the Nature Boy is a conniving so-and-so and, in my minds eye, I can see the finish oh so clearly...

Firstly, I see him stealing Bret Hart's variation of the figure four (as the rules would permit) then, even as he is applying the pressure I see one of his hands steal under the ring apron to take advantage of the Viper in a way that means he just can't get up by the ten count...

Spoiler

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Arguments can be made back and forth for brutality vs longevity and in a fair fight, it would be interesting to see what would out... but Flair's true gift was the ability to confound the odds with his deviousness and as Randy is stupid enough to fall for Kane's ambush on SmackDown, he would be out of his league against Naitch!

 

[ProudFlairMark]

This all boils down to the simple premise of the entire contest - is Randy Orton better than Ric Flair? The answer is a definitive and resounding "NO!" Let's examine it from a kayfabe perspective in the context of the tournament:

Promos Leading up the Match: Ric Flair is arguably the greatest stick man of all time. Randy Orton, to his credit, is much better than people give him credit for. Still, not anywhere in Flair's league.

Athleticism: Randy Orton, while certainly athletic, doesn't have the cardiovascular conditioning Flair had. If we're talking strictly in their primes, Flair would just be getting warmed up while Randy was getting blown up. Again, very agile, very quick, but not quite the "60 Minute Man."

Resiliency: If there ever was an attribute that Flair possessed more than any other, it was the ability to get thrown around like a rag doll and still get back on the offensive. Flair's ultimate talent was to sell like mad for his opponent and still keep himself in a position to pull out a victory. It is the penultimate challenge and goal - to get both performers over simultaneously - even to the extent where who got the "W" is nullified due to the performance.

I know I drifted away from the kayfabe argument, but there is just no conceivable way, kayfabe or otherwise, that Randy Orton advances and not Ric Flair.

 

[justinsayne]

This is a match that could benifit Flair if he were able to lock in the figure 4 long enough to cause enough damage to Orton's legs to the point where he wouldn't be able to stand. However it seems like it takes Flair an hour and a half to lock in the damn figure 4, & in that time Orton would come to kick Flair away & then proceed to tear Flair apart. Several ways I could see this ending with Orton coming out on top, 1- Flair climps the top rope, Orton jumps up and hits a "Super RKO" on Flair, 2- Orton RKO's Flair through table chair, steel steps, ramp, concrete floor, etc. rendering Flair unconscious for the ten count, 3- Orton punts Flairs head into the nose bleed seats. 4- Orton busts Flair open with in the first 5 seconds of the match, eventually Flair passes out from blood loss. I could go on, but I think you get the picture, I just see far more ways for Orton, who is a much more sick & twisted motherfucker, to win this than I do for Flair. Also Orton has beaten Flair once before, don't see why he wouldn't be able to do it again, especially under stipulation that gives him the edge.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

Firstly, I see him stealing Bret Hart's variation of the figure four (as the rules would permit) then, even as he is applying the pressure I see one of his hands steal under the ring apron to take advantage of the Viper in a way that means he just can't get up by the ten count...

Ladies and gentlemen, this is the very definition of a reach. You're reaching, bud. In fact, this is the goofiest argument I've read so far in this years tournament.

Arguments can be made back and forth for brutality vs longevity and in a fair fight, it would be interesting to see what would out... but Flair's true gift was the ability to confound the odds with his deviousness and as Randy is stupid enough to fall for Kane's ambush on SmackDown, he would be out of his league against Naitch!

Orton didn't fall for anything within a match, he was saving his father. That's courage, not stupidity. Orton's too smart a wrestler to be fooled by Flair. Again, he's not some giant meathead.

Promos Leading up the Match: Ric Flair is arguably the greatest stick man of all time. Randy Orton, to his credit, is much better than people give him credit for. Still, not anywhere in Flair's league.

Not sure what that has to do with kayfabe, or why we would be having "promos" leading up to a third round bout, but alright...

Athleticism: Randy Orton, while certainly athletic, doesn't have the cardiovascular conditioning Flair had. If we're talking strictly in their primes, Flair would just be getting warmed up while Randy was getting blown up. Again, very agile, very quick, but not quite the "60 Minute Man."

Do you not watch wrestling? Orton is one of the leanest, most well conditioned athletes WWE has to offer. This part doesn't hold water, either.

Resiliency: If there ever was an attribute that Flair possessed more than any other, it was the ability to get thrown around like a rag doll and still get back on the offensive. Flair's ultimate talent was to sell like mad for his opponent and still keep himself in a position to pull out a victory. It is the penultimate challenge and goal - to get both performers over simultaneously - even to the extent where who got the "W" is nullified due to the performance.

Flair's resilient, I'll give you that much.

I know I drifted away from the kayfabe argument, but there is just no conceivable way, kayfabe or otherwise, that Randy Orton advances and not Ric Flair.

Sure there is. That's why you drifted away from kayfabe

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

This all boils down to the simple premise of the entire contest - is Randy Orton better than Ric Flair? The answer is a definitive and resounding "NO!" Let's examine it from a kayfabe perspective in the context of the tournament:

Let's.

Promos Leading up the Match: Ric Flair is arguably the greatest stick man of all time. Randy Orton, to his credit, is much better than people give him credit for. Still, not anywhere in Flair's league.

Irrelevant. Promos don't matter shit when it comes to this match. I remember a guy named Punk cutting what everyone thought was a classic promo. What happened about an hour or so later? He lost the title.

Athleticism: Randy Orton, while certainly athletic, doesn't have the cardiovascular conditioning Flair had. If we're talking strictly in their primes, Flair would just be getting warmed up while Randy was getting blown up. Again, very agile, very quick, but not quite the "60 Minute Man."

Why the fuck does it matter if Flair can go 60 minutes? I guaradamntee you that this match ain't going 60 minutes. It probably won't get past 20 or 25 tops. Orton's gone 60 minutes so it's not new to him.

Resiliency: If there ever was an attribute that Flair possessed more than any other, it was the ability to get thrown around like a rag doll and still get back on the offensive. Flair's ultimate talent was to sell like mad for his opponent and still keep himself in a position to pull out a victory. It is the penultimate challenge and goal - to get both performers over simultaneously - even to the extent where who got the "W" is nullified due to the performance.

I'm sure I've seen Orton be quite resilient as well. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I don't think Flair's arsenal is enough to beat Orton. Show me where someone has been unable to stand after a Figure Four. Orton isn't going to pass out and even on one leg which so many people assume will happen, he can still hit the RKO.

 

[Davi323]

Essentially, this is how I see it:
To vote for Flair, I have to believe that he can take everything Orton has and still have the energy to keep getting up time after time, knowing that Orton is capable of pure violence.

To vote for Orton, I have to believe that he has enough stamina himself to be able to wear down the Nature Boy to the point where he can't get up anymore, knowing that Ric Flair's stamina is legendary, and that he can absorb quite a lot and still get up and go.

If I had to lay odds right now, I lean more towards believing that Flair would be able to absorb Orton's violence long enough for Orton to get completely gassed than I do in believing Orton can go long enough to wear Flair down to the point he can't get up...I think Ric Flair's vs. Randy Orton's longevity definitely would be a major factor in this match, and to that point, I give Flair the advantage so far...but I can't say that when it's time to vote that Flair would definitely get it.

 

[Owen 3:16 says I just stole your Slammy!!]

Great match up. Both Flair and Orton equal up. Flair is the dirty player of the game, but Orton can play dirty if he has to. Orton has the killer instinct and would not give up very easy. Since this is a No D-Q match up, look for the Horsemen to make an apperance.

I see the "Nature Boy," to survive in this one. Orton will have Flair down, the Horsemen comes out and jump Orton. Orton will be down for the 10 count.

My vote: Ric Flair.

 

[Shocky]

A vote for Ric Flair is simply the wrong vote. Ric Flair has never been known for being a viscous wrestler. Sure, he's done some pretty shitty things to guys over his career, but he's known as the dirtiest player in the game. Ric Flair is the king of pulling off bullshit lucky victories while taking ass an ass whooping. Well, no school boy or simple figure four is going to get the job done here.

Mind games, you can forget playing mind games with Randy Orton. Nothing Ric Flair could muster would bother Randy Orton emotionally. The dude is booked as a stone cold killer. His entire career, he destroys people and assaults them physically and mentally. We're talking about the guy that spits on legends and kisses the bosses daughter for the hell of it.

Randy Orton would destroy Ric Flair in a last man standing match. It would be an RKO followed by a punt to the skull. Orton is a sick fuck, and he would enjoy doing it.

 

[LSN80]

Randy Orton's never been in a match that's reached 60 minutes or faced a wrestler as good as Flair was in his prime. Orton beat CM Punk in a last man standing match last year, but also lost to HHH in a similar match.

Two things here:

1.Orton faced John Cena in a 60 minute Iron Man match at Bragging Rights 2009. As important as it being an Iron Man match is, it was a no-DQ Iron Man match, allowing for the use of weapons. He showed he could go 60 in a "hardcore" environment, so his cardio or experience really isn't an issue here.

2.Orton's won several Last Man Standing Matches in his career, one coming in the main event of No Mercy 2007 over HHH. He returned the loss a year later to HHH at One Night Stand 2008, but to pretend he only lost this match type to HHH without acknowledging Orton's win in 2007 is either misinformed, or skewing. Take your pick.

Flair's simply someone who can debilitate you to the point of not standing up for a 10 count. The figure four leg lock can do fatal damage in this kind of match.

When, in Flair's career, has someone not gotten up from the figure four? After they've submitted, I mean, who has needed helped out of the ring after a Ric Flair figure four? I can't recall anybody......

Apply that same logic of a Randy Orton punt. You have Batista, HHH, HBK, John Cena, and CM Punk, amongst others, who haven't gotten up from a Randy Orton assault. Whether it be an RKO through something, be it a chair or a table, or a punt to the head, all of the mentioned above have been stretchered off, let alone unable to get up.

This would seem to favor Orton in a LMS match, would it not?

The RKO could potentially do the job, but Flair's gotten up from more damage than an RKO. It would take more than one RKO to beat Flair, and the Nature Boy's not stupid enough to get caught up in that move more that once, if at all. Orton's stubborn nature can get him to take higher risks and cause himself to be injured... or be caught in a predicament where Flair can do damage to him.

WHen it's come down for Orton to win big matches, he's followed the RKO with the punt. He did it at Backlash 2009 to win the WWE Title from HHH, and at Hell In A Cell 2009 to win the WWE Title from Cena. When the RKO hasn't finished the job, the punt has. And the stretcher has followed.

This is alot easier as some would have you to believe. While Flair was the sixty minute man, those were wrestling matches. A LMS match isn't a wrestling match, it's a damn brawl. Flair could brawl, but it wasn't what he did in his prime. He didn't have high impact moves in his arsenal that could keep someone down.

Randy Orton, on the other hand, has two moves that, kayfabe-wise, are all about high impact. So while Flair may not get caught in the RKO more then once, he may not need to be. Because Orton has shown he's more then capable of following that first RKO with a punt, and that would keep Flair down.

Orton wins this after an RKO and a punt. The match type simply doesn't favor Flair here.

 

[Big Sexy]

I'd like to point out that when Orton defeated Triple H in their LMS match at No Mercy 2007 he had a little bit of an advantage. They fought each other in the first match of the night with Triple H winning and then while Orton got to rest until the main event, Triple H had another match on the middle of the card against Umaga.

I'd also like to point out that Ric Flair isn't exactly a novice in the hardcore environment. He has defeated Harley Race in a cage match, Terry Funk in an I Quit match, Vader in a Thundcage, not to mention all of the war games matches he has been in. I'm not sure there is a wrestler in history that can match Ric Flair in a combination of stamina and ability to take punishment. Flair finds a way to win like he always seemed to do when he needed to in his prime.

 

[thatotherguy]

Essentially, this is how I see it:
To vote for Flair, I have to believe that he can take everything Orton has and still have the energy to keep getting up time after time, knowing that Orton is capable of pure violence.

To vote for Orton, I have to believe that he has enough stamina himself to be able to wear down the Nature Boy to the point where he can't get up anymore, knowing that Ric Flair's stamina is legendary, and that he can absorb quite a lot and still get up and go.

If I had to lay odds right now, I lean more towards believing that Flair would be able to absorb Orton's violence long enough for Orton to get completely gassed than I do in believing Orton can go long enough to wear Flair down to the point he can't get up...I think Ric Flair's vs. Randy Orton's longevity definitely would be a major factor in this match, and to that point, I give Flair the advantage so far...but I can't say that when it's time to vote that Flair would definitely get it.

THIS.

Look, I don't think you can be blamed for voting Orton. But last man standing – duct tape aside – is a battle of resiliency. It's a battle of who can last longest. That's Ric Flair's game. Randy Orton is all about quick impactful moves designed to get a 3 count. He has the punt, but that thing takes forever to set up. Not saying he couldn't hit it, but rather that he rarely does. Ric Flair is best at outlasting his opponent and finding ways to win, the two things necessary to win a Last Man Standing Match. Vote Flair.

 

[Johnny Scumm]

Flair. Simply because of him being the bigger star here. Not to say that we're Last Man Standing and well... Flair still is. Randy will give it everything that he has in this one, but I cannot see him pulling out a win against Ric Flair. Like has been said, if this was the blowoff for a feud, I could see Orton taking it, but its not all that important, so Flair has to have this one.

I call Flair moving on, but with some sort of injury that might hinder him next round.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

Two things here:

1.Orton faced John Cena in a 60 minute Iron Man match at Bragging Rights 2009. As important as it being an Iron Man match is, it was a no-DQ Iron Man match, allowing for the use of weapons. He showed he could go 60 in a "hardcore" environment, so his cardio or experience really isn't an issue here.

It'll be an issues because Flair will MAKE it an issue. Flair's known for wearing his opponents down. The longer the match, the better it is for Flair, and in a Last Man Standing match, I have NEVER seen Flair not walk out of a wrestling ring under his own power. If it's happened once, I missed it.

2.Orton's won several Last Man Standing Matches in his career, one coming in the main event of No Mercy 2007 over HHH. He returned the loss a year later to HHH at One Night Stand 2008, but to pretend he only lost this match type to HHH without acknowledging Orton's win in 2007 is either misinformed, or skewing. Take your pick.

I was tired when typing the responses last night, so I'll go with misinformed. Orton's a great wrestler and has been in Last Man Standing matches, but HHH and Cena aren't the caliber of wrestler Flair is. And the whole duct tape with Batista? Flair's not going to get caught up in duct tape.

When, in Flair's career, has someone not gotten up from the figure four? After they've submitted, I mean, who has needed helped out of the ring after a Ric Flair figure four? I can't recall anybody......

Jimmy Garvin, Bobby Eaton, Scott Steiner, and many others. In normal matches, Flair works the knee for a few, then slaps the figure four on his foe. In an LMS environment, Flair can work the knee and keep on doing that until he slaps that Figure Four on Orton and maybe he does it a few times. Eventually, Orton won't be able to stand and won't be able to stand, which is how you lose the match.

Apply that same logic of a Randy Orton punt. You have Batista, HHH, HBK, John Cena, and CM Punk, amongst others, who haven't gotten up from a Randy Orton assault. Whether it be an RKO through something, be it a chair or a table, or a punt to the head, all of the mentioned above have been stretchered off, let alone unable to get up.

All of those wrestlers, including HBK are inferior to Flair. In a big match, no one outshines the Nature Boy. That punt's null and void when one of your knees doesn't work right. You have to have momentum to hit that punt and Orton would try it, then writhe in pain halfway to doing the punt, and then it's TIME TO GO TO SCHOOL! WOOOO!

This would seem to favor Orton in a LMS match, would it not?

Could favor either side.

WHen it's come down for Orton to win big matches, he's followed the RKO with the punt. He did it at Backlash 2009 to win the WWE Title from HHH, and at Hell In A Cell 2009 to win the WWE Title from Cena. When the RKO hasn't finished the job, the punt has. And the stretcher has followed.

This is alot easier as some would have you to believe. While Flair was the sixty minute man, those were wrestling matches. A LMS match isn't a wrestling match, it's a damn brawl. Flair could brawl, but it wasn't what he did in his prime. He didn't have high impact moves in his arsenal that could keep someone down.

Randy Orton, on the other hand, has two moves that, kayfabe-wise, are all about high impact. So while Flair may not get caught in the RKO more then once, he may not need to be. Because Orton has shown he's more then capable of following that first RKO with a punt, and that would keep Flair down.

Orton wins this after an RKO and a punt. The match type simply doesn't favor Flair here.

The match type favors Flair. His finisher disables your ability to stand up. The punt's not going to be a factor when one or both knees are blown out or strained or broken. Flair's underestimated as one of the toughest men in the business. His matches are known for him being thumped, then coming back, damaging the foes legs, and walking out the champion.

 

[Danger Burger]

My reason for voting Flair is the same reason everyone else should! You cant stand with no legs! I could write more, but debating is anothers game, i like monopoly. Ortan came close, better luck next year!

 

[Jaffa]

Randy Orton in 2008,2009 and 2010 took out CM Punk, Triple H, Batista, Shane McMahon, John Cena and Chris Jericho with punts to the skull. In a last man standing match not matter how big Flair was Orton would be able to defeat him with one kick.