Dolph Ziggler just isn't that good compared to others

[Wrestlingfan100]

everyone raves about Dolph Ziggler and he's great in the ring of course but I don't see him as the best. I mean there are only two guys I think he's better than and that's Miz and Kofi Kingston but I feel there are many better than him and I mean strictly from an in ring stand point:
Cesaro
Daniel Bryan
Matt Sydal( granted he's been pro since 17)
Tyson Kidd( pro since 16)
Adrian Neville
Christopher Daniels
Sami Zayne
Kota Ibushi
KENTA
Masato yoshino
Naruki Doi
Low Ki
AJ Styles
Seth Rollins
Dean Ambrose
Kevin Steen( training since 14)

Now I'm not one of those people who denies in ring talent when I find someone boring, I've been to wrestling school and get most of my knowledge from veteran wrestlers' interviews and podcasts. I know Dolph can go in that ring but when I look at the names above he just doesn't compete.
Like Matt Sydal, he sells better, he's been in the business for more years so he knows more obviously or Cesaro, comparing him to Cesaro is just crazy.

I feel bad for Dolph, WWE has an amazing roster even counting NXT with indie and international wrestling young veterans, I just feel he doesn't stand out in ring wise. Thoughts? Opinions?

 

[DCLXVI]

Always liked Dolph Ziggler, he has a cool moveset and brings it in the ring. Is he the BEST? Probably not. My one minor gripe is that he spends a lot of time overselling compared to other wrestlers but that builds the match up so it may be a good thing. Him vs. Randy Orton was probably one of the best matches I've seen on WWE this year... long match with good psychology and everyone hits their cool moves.

Who is THE BEST? I don't know... I would pit Finn Balor/Prince Devitt above most anybody in terms of precision and forward thinking moves. But being the best wrestler has a lot of aspects to it, not just ring work. I really preferred Dolph when he was heelish and was paired with Vickie Guerrero, he seems like a natural heel with the "show off" thing but he has been getting huge crowd reactions. This is tailored to kids now.

You have to say this; whoever he is in the ring with he makes look damn good.

 

[GeminiGarlord]

I kinda of agree, never have been a fan of Ziggler. He can be ok in the ring but there's plenty so much better than him. I could get behind him if he had a good gimmick/personality, but most of the time he only comes off as annoying even as a face. (the hole Miz leaked photos angle was cringe-worthy and borderline offensive)

 

[Navi]

I think personally that Dolph is good in the ring. Is the better than other's in the locker room, I would say yes, but is he the best, no he isn't.

For me the purpose of watching a wrestling match is to be entertained, I've said it before. And I find him highly entertaining, his matches are usually never boring. The guy knows how to take a bump, and has some good moves when hit properly.

You don't have to be the biggest powerhouse, the most gifted technically, or a great high flyer to put on a good match. Most wrestlers given the right opponent can put out great stuff in the ring. Reigns gets a lot of heat, but his match with ADR was fantastic earlier in the year.

Ziggler whether on TV on in a house show has never failed me anyway, and until he does, I will say he's good in the ring. And that's all it means.

 

[TheDrix]

Well maybe he is not that good, but I think his finishers look way better and look more lethal than finishers of the others, but his biggest advantage is, compared to others, that he is the best seller in the WWE for me today!
No one sells better the moves and finishers of others, than Dolph Ziggler.
I would like to see him being a bit higher in the roster, for me he is more entertaining than some of those, who are on the top now.

 

[Softcore Holly]

While I don't consider him the best I do think in-ring wise he's one of the top tier guys on the roster. This week was a great example as he had fantastic matches against Orton and Rollins and imo put on the best matches on those shows. Now I'm not saying he's the best in the wrestling world or even of the locker room, but WWE wise he is certainly up there. Of course it's only a good thing for us that there's better talent out there, that just means more possible great matches for us to watch.

 

[Mark Henrys Sandwich]

I've said this before he reminds me of a poor mid 90's Marty Jannetty.

This is based on how you don't think he could win when in ring, looks and presents himself as far too vulnerable

 

[HBKistheHOF]

Many of the names mentioned in the OP are not only some of the best wrestlers ever but many of them are my personal favorites & I think Ziggler fits in perfectly, especially if we are just talking about pure in-ring ability. If anything I think for the first time in years Dolph simply has competition in the ring from a lot of the talent & I think that's part of the reason he has fallen back into the mid-card.

Back a couple years ago besides maybe Punk & Bryan, Ziggler didn't really have competition inside the ring or at least not from any newer/up & coming talent. Then once he started to really hit his mark as an all around performer & reached the World Championship level he got injured, shelved & pushed to the bottm for awhile & around that same time a lot of great new talent came into the fold. Ever since then it seems like Dolph has been struggling to find & hold his place in the company. Hopefully he breaks away from the pack of guys like The Miz & Sheamus soon because I think he deserves to be apart of the main event scene & I think he could be a great veteran main event talent for other younger guys in the future. DZ has always reminded me of a younger/slightly smaller Triple H, he make take awhile to reach his full potential but when he does he could be a valuable asset for years to come.

 

[CrucifiedRaven]

He gets a good pop and he is very good in the ring. WWE doesn't seem to want to push him beyond an upper mid carder. But they also don't seem to want to protect him, since he is constantly booked to job to the main eventers. Being the IC champ, I don't think he should ever be losing on television, but they don't seem to mind making him look weak. Because of that I don't think he'll ever legitimately be seen as any higher up on the card than he currently is..

 

[THTRobtaylor]

I don't think it's fair to say he isn't good cos he is... but he is a classic case of believing in one's own hype, stubborn refusal to change and personality flaws damaging his career.

When he says he wants to steal the show he believes it, and he genuinely seems to feel he does every night... but he doesn't every night... he does it relatively often, but he is not a Shawn Michaels or Jericho, where you literally could rely on them to steal it.

His style is dangerous at times, to himself and to others. He injured Barrett by trying to be clever in mid air and make a move "look" spectacular when the reality is it would have killed him. The night before that in the Chamber he was taking embarrassingly stupid and needless bumps on the metal flooring. He still hasn't really toned that side of himself down and it means WWE can't invest in him the way he feels they should, cos he gets hurt too much. We now have seen what 3 concussions means with Christian, you are done, regardless of if you get cleared cos it's not worth the risk to them. Dolph is on 2... his style means the 3rd is coming, it's not if but when. If he'd tone it down even 5 percent, he'd reduce that risk but he's stubborn enough not to... he's the guy on the roster I "worry" most about something going badly wrong with... I've had 2 concussions and I am disabled for life... I can see him getting his 3rd and it being a very serious situation, cos he tried for a stupid, oversold spot too far.

The other side of it is his own character flaws... This is a guy who is quite happy being the "malcontent" backstage, he will mouth off about Cena, sign up for movies without necessarily clearing it and spend as much time planning a stand up comedy career as in the gym. Jericho had his band but he built up the goodwill before it really became a "thing". Ziggler went and signed for this Max Landis film and got snapped with the cast and announced on Twitter... you can imagine it being "ok" in his deal, but not through "channel" and Vince being quite put out by it... same for his interviews with Cena... normally one person IS allowed to be that malcontent, in any workplace...it's needed and essential but Ziggler seems to not have that "politcs" setting, he just does what he wants, says what he wants and if he jobs some matches for it then he just has more fuel for his discontent. Add to that his brother left on bad terms with the company and he has a lot of "bad karma" with the company all told.

Yet he still gets pushed, so they do see value in him... but it's not the value he sees in himself and that is perhaps the issue. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Nick Nemeth is a bad guy, by all accounts he isn't at all. But he's never really been WWE material in the sense of how that company and it's talent operate... Punk wasn't but was able to let his work do the talking till he had the currency to talk himself... Dolph still doesn't have that but talks anyway...

In 2 years he'll be gone... he'll be doing his movies or trying his standup... or he'll have botched and be retired through a bad injury... I really don't see a scenario where in 2 years he is either bigger than he is in WWE or accepting it if he's not...nor WWE allowing him to be... one more screwup/flare up and they'll cut bait.

 

[FromGlasgow]

I think he needs a better gimmick I head a rumour Ric Flair was returning to manage him which would have been good to watch and I believe that would have gotten him to a main event level, I do think he has a lot of potential just not with his current gimmick.

 

[Kidpolean]

You cant compare non wwe wrestlers to wwe wrestlers. Devitt was in NJPW where he could have a 30 min match with no move restrictions, while Ziggler has 10 min matches with lots of move restrictions and more writers involved with the match. WWE is different from any other wrestling company except for maybe TNA. Ziggler in the indies would be called one of the best in the world. He has proven time and time again that he can put on great matches and he is actually better on the mic than most of the guys you named.

Low Ki and Sydal are trash when they're moves are limited. These guys that you named generally spend 5-10 mins doing chain wrestling and take breaks during matches which simply wont work in wwe when you only have 5-10 mins for the entire match.

 

[MERPER]

Dolph is arguably the best in-ring performer they have. He has a wide variety of exciting moves and he is great at selling his opponent attacks.

His matches are consistently one of the top 2 or 3 in terms of pure wrestling at every event.

 

[MartialHorror]

I shall increase the heat by agreeing and claiming that Ziggler is the most overrated worker in the WWE.

Now he's not bad or anything and he can put on great matches...The problem is that I'm more interested in his matches than I am in him. He's not a bad talker, but his promos have yet to interest me. For example, when he bantered with Seth Rollins, he tried to be funny and...well, the joke wasn't bad, but the crowd had a 'meh' response to it. I also don't think he has the best wrestling psychology and his heel tactics are strange- although I blame Michael Cole for justifying them.

He reminds me of Alberto del Rio: Excellent in-ring performer, average personality.

Nevertheless, I believe he deserves upper midcard status simply because his matches are consistently awesome. I loved his Randy Orton match from last Raw.

 

[MERPER]

I shall increase the heat by agreeing and claiming that Ziggler is the most overrated worker in the WWE.

If we are talking about overrated workers... how would he be over Kane? Or Miz? Or Cesaro? Or any one of a number of mid-card hacks?

 

[MartialHorror]

Well, define overrated I guess.

1) Kane: Are we talking modern Kane or Kane during his prime? Is anyone calling for a Kane push? Is anything calling him the best of the roster?

2) Miz: Fans tend to agree that he's good on the mic, but mediocre in the ring. But audiences seem to be most indifferent to him right now, focusing more on Sandow.

3) Cesaro: Interesting example. I love the guy, but if you think he's overrated, then that's you're right as long as you have valid reasons.

It all does come down to individual reactions to these wrestlers. Fans adore Ziggler and the internet demands that he get a legit push. I just find him uninteresting as a character, so I'd rather he stay in the midcard. That's why I say he's overrated. The examples you listed are odd because once again, who is calling Kane or the Miz great performers who deserve more? If anything, I want less of Kane because I feel he's lost all credibility as an in-ring threat.

On the subject, I think Bray Wyatt is overrated as well. I prefer him over Ziggler, but if his Cena feud taught me anything, it's that Wyatt is more compelling in small bursts. Give him 5-10+ minutes in promo time, I'm going to start falling asleep. Cena is a complicated case because I do think he's an excellent performer, but I feel WWE has lost touch with how he should be used.

 

[Mudlup50]

If we are talking about overrated workers... how would he be over Kane? Or Miz? Or Cesaro? Or any one of a number of mid-card hacks?

How is Miz exactly overrated? Most of the IWC doesn't like him and the fans don't care. If anything I'd say he's underrated...people hate on him genuinely even though he's great on the mic and one of the best heels now xD of course I am a Miz fan! All that being said, I like his place on the card now. Hopefully he stays in the mid card because he was a horrible world champion

Kane is definitely overrated right now, I'm so tired of him. His chokeslams look horrible now and he hasn't won a match fair and square in what feels like forever ><

Cesaro, I don't know. I think he gets a nice reaction for the guy who can't win. He seems pretty good in the ring, I don't really agree with the IWC's love for him but to each their own.

Ziggler...I'd say he's overrated. He's not a bad wrestler but like Miz I think he's staying in the midcard his entire career and there's nothing wrong with that. I just don't get why the fans love him so much! He's just a guy on the roster to me. Even his promos with Miz were pretty horrendous with the "tanning" pictures. His in ring work is good but I think he messed up on Raw this week. When Orton hit his RKO(which was epic as anything) Ziggler didn't roll over. You could see Orton try to pin him like he was, so obviously he dropped the ball. Things like that are why I think Ziggler should be happy in the midcard

 

[rajasalshi]

Dolph Ziggler might not be the most technically gifted in the ring or the most natural on the microphone but in my opinion he is undoubtedly the most hard-working wrestler in the world right now. Despite being de-pushed after his short WHC run, he kept on putting 4 and 5-star matches almost everytime he stepped foot in the ring.

The most important thing however is that he connects with the crowd every night which is a very rare thing with today's product.

 

[DCLXVI]

While yes maybe he backstage behavior has hurt him in some ways but I also think HIS NAME has. It's hard to imagine a champ named "Dolph Ziggler". We had a thread on this a few weeks ago and everyone agrees it is pretty much the worst wrestling name that immediately comes to mind when you think of a bad one.

 

[MartialHorror]

I don't think Dolph Ziggler is a bad wrestling name...At least when paired with his show off gimmick.

 

[Alex]

I like Ziggler but he really is nowhere near as good as his fans or himself think he is.

He's average at best on the mic and serviceable in the ring. Over the top selling is fun, but when you're doing it all the time it gets dull.

There's a reason he's Intercontinental Champion and likely won't be getting any higher than that because that's where he belongs.

Guys like Rollins, Ambrose and Reigns have been in WWE less time than him and they appear to be surpassing him already (and Reigns is injured). Aside from one terrible WHC run Ziggler hasn't shown he's main event material. You can blame his concussion all you want but if he was as good as people say he would've got back into the picture.

Don't get me wrong Ziggler is good and a good hand but he's seriously not as good as he thinks. I mean heck Miz is better than him (yeah I said it) Miz's one WWE title run was leaps and bounds ahead of Ziggler's WHC title run. Miz headlined Wrestlemania and beat John Cena. You can say it was a mistake all you want but people actually thought Miz was worth the time and effort, the same can't be said with Ziggler

 

[Howie Backpack]

I stopped watching wrestling around 2002 and didn't pick it back up until 2011. When I started watching again Dolph was an immediate favorite of mine. I think the first thing I said was "Damn, who is this guy, Mr Perfect?". And I've rooted for him every since. I know that a lot of respectful people love the guy. Steve Austin, Jim Ross, Ric Flair, Mick Foley have all sung his praises. And they are professionals within the business who look for different things than we do as fans. I'm not saying he is the absolute best out there, but he is a hell of a performer. This is a thread based on an opinion and I know that, but to say he is only better than Miz and Kofi? That seems a little absurd. I know he deserves better than saying he is in the bottom three performers of the company.

 

[Mustang Sally]

There's a reason he's Intercontinental Champion and likely won't be getting any higher than that because that's where he belongs.

Yes. He's a good midcarder....and it isn't an insult to the man to say this. The problem with Dolph's career is that WWE management either got excited about him and tried to force him down our throats at main event level.....or Vince McMahon figured: "I'll determine who's a star and who isn't. The fans will get behind the performers I decide to promote."

A lot of time and effort were expended trying to convince us Dolph would be a success as a main event level wrestler who frequently holds the world championship. For myself, I could never see it. He was on every damn broadcast of Raw and Smackdown, doing what he does and doing it well.....but never featuring as a guy who belonged at the very top of the card.

There's nothing wrong with him....and nothing wrong with being a good midcard performer. But if Vince McMahon learned along the way that he might not be the star-maker he believed himself to be.....well, that's okay, too.

 

[Alex]

Yes. He's a good midcarder....and it isn't an insult to the man to say this. The problem with Dolph's career is that WWE management either got excited about him and tried to force him down our throats at main event level.....or Vince McMahon figured: "I'll determine who's a star and who isn't. The fans will get behind the performers I decide to promote."

A lot of time and effort were expended trying to convince us Dolph would be a success as a main event level wrestler who frequently holds the world championship. For myself, I could never see it. He was on every damn broadcast of Raw and Smackdown, doing what he does and doing it well.....but never featuring as a guy who belonged at the very top of the card.

There's nothing wrong with him....and nothing wrong with being a good midcard performer. But if Vince McMahon learned along the way that he might not be the star-maker he believed himself to be.....well, that's okay, too.

Don't get me wrong, me saying he's not going any higher than IC level isn't an insult. If you're the top of your division that's great. It makes people invested and not tune out until the main event people. I mean look at TNA there are several talents who probably won't get near the world title (Low Ki, Samuel Shaw etc) but they still put on great matches or have interesting storylines that thew crowd are invested in (somewhat)

It probably pisses Dolph off that he won't be near the main event for a while if ever again, but he's a prominent fixture in the midcard and actually has a bit of direction which he should be grateful for. There are several talents who would probably kill for that (Tyson Kidd, Adam Rose etc)

Dolph comes across like Dave Mustaine from Megadeth and his resentment of Metallica. Pissed off that there are talents that are a bigger deal than him but doesn't realise how well he's actually got it with what he's actually achieved.

 

[sMark]

Honestly i enjoyed Dolph much more before this "show off" thing and after his Spirit Squad run. I cannot stand this 50 stupid taunts and 5 moves attitude (perhaps someone said him "you should entertain more to become main eventer" and the guy understood it wrong). And currently all i hear about him - complaints on twitter and backstage. If he really wanted to become something big, he should ask someone like HHH what he do wrong and go fix it, instead of whining. Nothing wrong here with learning some stuff if you is not that good but want to be better.