Does the "nobody is good but Lebron and the Heat" thought process hurt basketball?

[J.J.]

How many finals was Jordan in, in which you saw his team leave the court in total defeat without a championship? One cold hard fact is Jordan is perfect in the finals. Which is why I was saying he has a killer instinct. Do you honestly think a Jordan led Bulls team would've took a 4-1 series loss?

For one thing Jordan was ultra competitive to the point he commanded a high level of play from his teammates and wasn't afraid to call them out. Steve Kerr definitely knows that. LeBron's lead by example role needs a dash of verbal firepower in the mix. By no means should he be the only player on that court giving 110%.

The notion that LeBron left Cleveland because they didn't want to surround him with talent is stupid. He's the face of the franchise, he has the say-so behind the scenes of who he wants. Their first mistake was allowing Carlos Boozer to leave for Utah, second was failing to sign a marquee free agent.

I put emphasis on Jordan's dpoy award because he averaged over 3 steals per game and in the last 26 years since I only recall Gary Payton winning that award as a Guard.

Willpower is what separates MJ from LeBron. He just wasn't going to accept losing or anyone on his team dragging. That isn't a statistic or something that can be taught .

 

[Slyfox696]

How many finals was Jordan in, in which you saw his team leave the court in total defeat without a championship?

How many times did you see Jordan in the Finals 4 years in a row? How many times did you see Jordan in the Finals without Pippen and Phil?

See, you couldn't even avoid the ONE condition which we already most likely agree is not relevant. I'll post what I said:

And since I think we both know the answer to #1 is "no", then I'll ask...once we establish that team championships are not a good indication of individual quality, can you give me any cold hard objective facts to show me Jordan was definitively better than LeBron?

The only thing you could come up with was a team accomplishment. You're proving my point.

Do you honestly think a Jordan led Bulls team would've took a 4-1 series loss?

We're not comparing the Bulls and Heat, we're comparing Jordan and LeBron. Do you think if LeBron was on the Bulls, they still would have won? Absolutely. Do you think if Jordan was on the Heat, they would have defeated the Spurs? Not a chance.

You're not just using the accomplishments of Jordan, but also of Pippen, Grant, Rodman, Phil and others to claim Jordan is better. It's asinine. Let's just compare Jordan to LeBron, not Bulls and Heat.

For one thing Jordan was ultra competitive to the point he commanded a high level of play from his teammates and wasn't afraid to call them out. Steve Kerr definitely knows that.

And today we'd call those guys terrible teammates. Funny how you thinking punching your teammate because he's guarding you well is an admirable quality.

LeBron's lead by example role needs a dash of verbal firepower in the mix.

Why? Do you even think about the things you say before you say them, or do you just regurgitate nonsensical rhetoric?

The notion that LeBron left Cleveland because they didn't want to surround him with talent is stupid.

Uhh, have you ever looked at the roster they had there? For fuck's sake, the year after he left, they lost 25+ games in a row. They set a record for losing the year after he left.

What's stupid is you thinking the Cavaliers, who now have the 3rd #1 pick in four years, are a competent franchise who could have put pieces around LeBron to get them over the hump.

He's the face of the franchise, he has the say-so behind the scenes of who he wants.

Even if this was true, and I don't know that it is, he's not the one who fucked up the roster.

I put emphasis on Jordan's dpoy award because he averaged over 3 steals per game and in the last 26 years since I only recall Gary Payton winning that award as a Guard.

5 guards out of the first 6 won the award. And Jordan never won the award when he was winning championships.

You don't get it both ways. You don't get to use the Michael Jordan of 1988 AND the Michael Jordan of 1997. You have to pick one because they were different players. Are we comparing LeBron of today to the 1988 Jordan or the 1997 Jordan? Which year or two do you think Jordan was at his absolute best? That's what we compare.

Willpower is what separates MJ from LeBron. He just wasn't going to accept losing or anyone on his team dragging. That isn't a statistic or something that can be taught .

Yeah, and it just so helped he had Hall of Fame players and coaches on his team.

Arguments like "willpower" and "killer instinct" are buzzwords for "I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about, but I'll be damned if I'll admit I'm wrong.".

I gave you a simple task...outside of a TEAM ACCOMPLISHMENT, give me an objective measure by which Michael Jordan was better. You can't.

 

[J.J.]

You keep mentioning Jordan playing with Hall of Famers. So Ray Allen and Dwayne Wade has certainly built a respectable resume to be considered a hall of game bid aren't potential hall of famers? I'd definitely argue Ray Allen is a shoe in. You mention Rodman but Rodman wasn't apart of that first 3peat.

Pippen and Rodman that's it. There were no other hall of famers on those Bulls teams. Who would had known Phil Jackson was going to win an additional 5 rings after his stint with the Bulls? He wasn't a hall of fame coach when he took over that team as the head coach.

I want to see LeBron play at the level of Jordan at 35, then we can discuss whose better. Tell me ONE player since Jordan that was still averaging 28ppg - still a pesky defender at his age and still considered the go to guy on their respective team.

You could be right about Jordan never winning a ring without Pippen, but Pippen definitely didn't win a ring without Jordan. So what's your point? You keep bringing up Jordan didn't win any defensive awards after Pippen came in the league. How many dpoy awards did he win?

Now you're arguing the inability Cleveland couldn't put pieces around LeBron. How many years had the Bulls been successful before Jordan? Look how many years went by before they became a perennial playoff team again after Jordan. That is a mute point you are trying to make.

Both these players played in different generations and I just agree to disagree with you. You have valid points, I'm not going to shun your opinion on LeBron and write it off as stupid.

 

[Slyfox696]

You keep mentioning Jordan playing with Hall of Famers. So Ray Allen and Dwayne Wade has certainly built a respectable resume to be considered a hall of game bid aren't potential hall of famers?

Absolutely they are, but I'm not the one giving Jordan crap for playing with good teammates. People criticize LeBron for leaving Cleveland because "Jordan didn't have to leave". You even said, verbatim, "Jordan learned to jell with the team that was instilled around him. Would LeBron have a ring right now had he not left Cleveland and joined Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh?" My point is Jordan already have Hall of Fame teammates so he didn't have to leave. But Jordan didn't win any titles until he had good teammates.

That's the point.

You mention Rodman but Rodman wasn't apart of that first 3peat.

But Horace Grant was and Horace Grant was a very good player (including an all-star the year after Jordan left).

Pippen and Rodman that's it. There were no other hall of famers on those Bulls teams.

Don't forget Phil.

Who would had known Phil Jackson was going to win an additional 5 rings after his stint with the Bulls? He wasn't a hall of fame coach when he took over that team as the head coach.

Who cares? You're missing the point.

Jordan didn't have to leave because Jordan already had help. Bashing LeBron for leaving because Jordan didn't is asinine. Saying "LeBron couldn't win a title without help" is stupid because Jordan couldn't either. It just so happened Jordan played for a competent franchise and LeBron did not.

Do you not understand the point?

I want to see LeBron play at the level of Jordan at 35, then we can discuss whose better.

There you are making silly statements. When you compare players, you compare them in their prime. If you want to say Jordan was in his prime at 35, you're welcome to, but I don't think you'll like the LeBron comparison at all.

Tell me ONE player since Jordan that was still averaging 28ppg - still a pesky defender at his age and still considered the go to guy on their respective team.

28 PPG is a rather arbitrary number, but how about Kareem? Kobe was hurt this year, but last year he met your standards.

You could be right about Jordan never winning a ring without Pippen, but Pippen definitely didn't win a ring without Jordan. So what's your point?

My point is Michael Jordan didn't win a championship by himself, he needed great players around him.

You cannot criticize LeBron for needing great players around him to win a championship and give Jordan a pass for the same thing.

You keep bringing up Jordan didn't win any defensive awards after Pippen came in the league.

Umm, no I didn't. I said Pippen was the better defender.

Now you're arguing the inability Cleveland couldn't put pieces around LeBron.

Yes. They are an incompetent franchise. Outside of being lucky enough to draft LeBron James, what have they done in the past two decades which makes you think they are a competent franchise?

How many years had the Bulls been successful before Jordan? Look how many years went by before they became a perennial playoff team again after Jordan. That is a mute point you are trying to make.

First of all, the word you're wanting to use is "moot", as in a "moot point". Second of all, trying to compare Chicago and Cleveland as destinations for free agents is absurd. Third of all, are you telling me LeBron should have stayed and HOPED Cleveland knew what they were doing, after having proven they didn't?

Your entire argument is absurd, like I told you from the very beginning.

Both these players played in different generations and I just agree to disagree with you. You have valid points, I'm not going to shun your opinion on LeBron and write it off as stupid.

Because my arguments aren't stupid. The opinion Jordan is better than LeBron is not necessarily stupid, but the arguments you're trying to use to support the position are stupid. Furthermore, you STILL haven't given me ONE objective measure by which Jordan was better that didn't include a team accomplishment.

I'm still waiting. Are you going to answer the question?

 

[George Steele's Barber]

JJ - give up. You're losing an argument you should be able to win. I'm sure there are long time NBA experts out there who have declared Michael Jordan to be the greatest of all time. You're letting Sly set the rules of the argument (championships are a team concept, and let's ignore PPG). He is only 29, meaning he was still counting pubes when Michael was showing his dominance. There are plenty of people who get paid for this stuff and had a strong understanding if the pro game during the 90's that will back your side who actually watched a lot of both players in the context of their eras.

Experts who recognize the implications of the hand check rule changes, understand the role of each player in their position and how it affected their stats, see how each player affected their teammates, can compare the Eastern Conference of the 90's against today, remembers Pat Riley's Knicks, people who remember what Chris Bosh was becoming and what Scottie Pippen was actually supposed to be.

 

[Slyfox696]

You're letting Sly set the rules of the argument (championships are a team concept, and let's ignore PPG).

Championships are a team concept. Trying to claim championships determine greatness is a waste of time.

And I'm not ignoring PPG, I've already granted that argument. I'm asking for something else.

He is only 29, meaning he was still counting pubes when Michael was showing his dominance.

While that was funny, I've seen Jordan play plenty, both during and after. But, unlike others, I'm not letting nostalgia cloud the argument.

 

[J.J.]

The thing is without Jordan winning those championships would he even draw comparisons? He was the primary reason the Bulls won those championships, clearly.

Reggie Miller was probably one of the best scorers behind Jordan during the 90s but his career will be overshadowed because he never led his team to a championship. Regardless of how clutch he was, how well he stroked from behind the arc he won't stick out without that ring.

George I don't expect Sly to fully understand. I remember Jordan playing at UNC with James Worthy and Sleep-Eyed Sam Perkins and helped lead them to a NCAA Championship. Jordan winning the MVP 5 times, always being finals MVP, ect. Even when he argues about Jordan's defense in comparison to Pippen and overlooks Jordan led the NBA in steals 2 or 3 times to go along with that defensive player of the year award. Keep in mind Pippen was on the team during those feats.

Jordan sought out to accomplish everything. MVP, Finals MVP, Defensive Player of Year, Scoring Title, Steals leader, Slam Dunk winner, All Star Game MVP, NBA First Team, All Star bids, First team defense and a host of records he has broken during his illustrious career.

He isn't aware of Clevelands success with Hot Rod Williams and Brad Daugherty in the early 90s in a stacked Eastern conference. Brad Daugherty retired due to a nagging back injury and it ultimately changed the franchise.

I grew up watching the NBA throughout the 80 s, 90s and current day. My knowledge of basketball isn't wikipedia and YouTube clips but I saw all these players and teams play.

It's hard to truly compare because basketball is different compared to 20 years ago. It's more fast paced, dominated by Guards, very perimeter oriented and spacing crowded. On the defensive side it's lateral quickness and length. Back 20 some odd years ago it was physical, slow and structured. Your bigs dominated the game.

Look at Jordan then or any great Guard of his era...centers stacked against Guards. Pistons personified hand checks on players like Jordan as a tactic to slow him down as did majority of the league after that. He delt with it every game.

In this era it's banned. Bron Bron can drive in the lane and the slightest bit of contact draws a whistle. If I was Guarding LeBron I would have to hope I can slide my feet in position in time. Many defenders falter and he gets to the line.

You had basic defenses back then. Double team or everyone man up. You have digging down and helping off non shooters. I'm not being critical but pointing out the difference. It was easier to post up - your Center backed down his lone defender and scored. Or if a double team was present, he'd pass out to a teammate who was open due to his defender off on help defense.

Guys like Noah and Howard have to consider multiple defenders. Which is why today is Guard heavy.

Size in this era is replaced with,shooters and speedy smaller guys. It is complicated to say who would have been better in each others era which is ultimately what you have to look at when comparing the two.

Bron would have to learn to use his size and natural raw strength as his advantage in Jordans era. Jordan would have to learn to run a high pick and roll and find an open player behind the arc in Brons era.

Todays Pacers would poise a fit for Jordan in the mid range game. No 3 sec in the key, a wide center can clog the lane against Bron and command a hard double team and hand checks ala Pistons and Knicks of the 90s.

 

[Slyfox696]

The thing is without Jordan winning those championships would he even draw comparisons? He was the primary reason the Bulls won those championships, clearly.

Obviously the best player on the team was the biggest reason his team won. But as great as Jordan was, he still couldn't do it without Scottie and Phil. So criticizing LeBron for needing help to win is asinine.

As I've said multiple times now.

Reggie Miller was probably one of the best scorers behind Jordan during the 90s

No he wasn't. Reggie was a great shooter who also knew how to get to the FT line. But he wasn't a great scorer and I say this as a guy whose favorite player of all time was probably Reggie Miller.

Regardless of how clutch he was, how well he stroked from behind the arc he won't stick out without that ring.

Well, that and the fact he was mostly a one trick pony. He wasn't a great defender, he wasn't a great assist man, he wasn't a great ball handler, he rebounded like he was 6'2", etc.

Again, I am/was a HUGE fan of Reggie Miller, but he wasn't nearly the player Jordan or LeBron was/is.

George I don't expect Sly to fully understand.

Oh, I understand just fine. I understand that you don't understand the game of basketball. I understand you let nostalgia tint your memory of Jordan. I understand Jordan is likely someone you really enjoyed watching and you hate to see unthroned as the greatest of all time.

I also understand you STILL can't give me one thing Jordan was definitively better at than LeBron, though I can give you several things LeBron is better than Jordan.

Jordan winning the MVP 5 times, always being finals MVP, ect. Even when he argues about Jordan's defense in comparison to Pippen and overlooks Jordan led the NBA in steals 2 or 3 times to go along with that defensive player of the year award. Keep in mind Pippen was on the team during those feats.

Uhh, that's just ridiculous.

1) Steals don't make someone a good defensive player. Are they one indication? Yes, but I've seen plenty of basketball players routinely get themselves out of position on defense just to get one or two steals a game.

2) Pippen was a rookie in '88 (when Jordan won DPOY) and he didn't become a full time starter until two years later. Your comment is dishonest.

Jordan sought out to accomplish everything. MVP, Finals MVP, Defensive Player of Year, Scoring Title, Steals leader, Slam Dunk winner, All Star Game MVP, NBA First Team, All Star bids, First team defense and a host of records he has broken during his illustrious career.

That's great. No one is saying Michael Jordan wasn't one of the best players ever. What I'm saying is LeBron is every bit as good as Jordan and maybe better.

He isn't aware of Clevelands success with Hot Rod Williams and Brad Daugherty in the early 90s in a stacked Eastern conference.

I think it's funny that you, someone who clearly doesn't know that much about basketball, is telling me what I don't know. By the way, since I know what a fan you are of PPG, Williams averaged roughly 10 a game. You should have used Mark Price who was easily the best player on those early 90s Cavaliers teams.

I grew up watching the NBA throughout the 80 s, 90s and current day. My knowledge of basketball isn't wikipedia and YouTube clips but I saw all these players and teams play.

Your knowledge of how basketball works is awful. You seem like a rather ignorant fan of basketball, someone who only watches for the highlight stats and ignores the things which actually have great impact on the game. You probably just watch the ball during the game.

And my knowledge is far greater than yours on basketball (and likely has been before Wikipedia or YouTube were things), so you probably ought to start watching YouTube and consulting Wikipedia.

It's hard to truly compare because basketball is different compared to 20 years ago. It's more fast paced, dominated by Guards, very perimeter oriented and spacing crowded. On the defensive side it's lateral quickness and length. Back 20 some odd years ago it was physical, slow and structured. Your bigs dominated the game.

No, no they did not. Maybe THIRTY years ago bigs dominated the game, but not twenty. Twenty years ago guys like Jordan and Barkley and Pippen and Drexler and Hardaway (both of them) dominated the game. Was Olujuwon great? Obviously. Was Robinson and Ewing both very very good? Obviously. But the game had already begun its change to the perimeter, especially as the 3pt shot provided far more spacing in the lane.

Look at Jordan then or any great Guard of his era...centers stacked against Guards. Pistons personified hand checks on players like Jordan as a tactic to slow him down as did majority of the league after that. He delt with it every game.

In this era it's banned. Bron Bron can drive in the lane and the slightest bit of contact draws a whistle.

Nonsense, more made up crap from people who want "the way it used to be".


There's a nearly 12 minute video of a game MJ had against the Pistons in '88. Just watch the first five minutes and point out all the tough defense you claim existed. You can't, because the game was officiated much tighter back then, especially around the perimeter.

You're wrong and you're making it up either because you're allowing nostalgia to get in the way or because you're arguing dishonestly. The defense back then was no tougher than it is today.

You had basic defenses back then.

Yup, which only means LeBron has it harder to score today.

Guys like Noah and Howard have to consider multiple defenders. Which is why today is Guard heavy.

Nope. Today is guard heavy because going 2 for 6 from the 3pt line is worth as much as going 3 for 6 from two. And if you can go 4 for 10 from three, it's better than going 5 for 10 from two.

That's why today is guard heavy. I've said it multiple times in this thread, the 3pt line is the reason the game has changed. It creates more spacing and provides more options for offenses, which requires more options for defenses.

Bron would have to learn to use his size and natural raw strength as his advantage in Jordans era. Jordan would have to learn to run a high pick and roll and find an open player behind the arc in Brons era.

What you don't seem to understand is both guys would be phenomenal in any era they played in. They both feature unrivaled athleticism and unparallelled ability to play basketball.

What you also don't seem to understand is LeBron is every bit as good as Jordan ever was.

Again, I'll come back to the same thing I've asked over and over and you obviously keep ignoring because you can't answer...aside from team accomplishments, by what measure can you say Michael was objectively and definitively better than LeBron?

 

[J.J.]

All those accolades he has is what makes to him(Jordan) better. Everything I listed in my my last post were individual accomplishments.

LeBron and MJ are clearly the more dominate players of their eras. I would argue Bron is the first player since Jordan to be a mile ahead of his peers.

I am not ready to say Bron is a better or every bit as Jordan because I don't believe so. That's my opinion, I am entitled to it just like you're entitled to believe Bron is just as good if not better than Jordan.

Nobody has been able to dethrone Jordan yet. Not Shaq, Allen Iverson, Kobe Bryant, ect.

End of the day MJ is MJ and Bron is Bron. Jordan is GOAT, I think many people would agree with me. There's roughly 16 seasons of proof to back up that claim.

Bron is a smart basketball player and has worked extremely hard at eluding bad shots from his repertoire. He bettered his post game and jumper.

It's not just that Jordan and Bron are different players, but also with different skill sets. Their approach to the game is unique. They're great players but aren't cut from the same cloth.

I said Kobe was the second closes thing to Jordan but that's only at imitating Jordan. Dwayne Wade tried to do the same and in reality all they've succeeded at doing is paying Jordan a compliment.

Bron likes to be efficient on the court by playing his absolute best team ball, which is great. Almost like trying to play perfect basketball. Jordan didn't, he wanted to be unstoppable. His efficiency was just a by product of his talent and will to win.

I admire Bron because he allows the game to come to him. He may go a game where he knocks down a few big shots, set a few key screens and provide great help d. Presto the Heat wins. He focuses on when those shots are taken mainly given the situation.

Bron approaches the game as he has gotten older with a "work smart not hard" mindset. He's very attentive, trying out something, figuring out how to win games without having to wear himself out. More importantly his ability to control an offensive possession without touching the ball.

What makes him a smart basketball player is he rather make a key pass, jump in the passing lane or shoot when necessary. Great passes, defends player that requires the most attention, great positioning when he plays off ball defense. But he knows when to go Jordan mode.

I recall a game a couple years ago against the Bulls in which ended the 27 game win streak. Bron switched to Kirk Hinrich so he could let him drive to the basket, swat the ball and get the ball back down the court each time

Jordan was different obviously. He played ferociously. Everything with him was so constant. Constant involvement, action and expenditure of energy. He found a way to get his hand in the passing lane on D, force a turnover, or dive out of bounds to save the ball if a teammate threw a bad pass. Get the ball back and find teammate for a 3.

Shoot, miss, get rebound, go up again and get fouled. You're a Reggie Miller fan so you can recall in the game 7 of 1998 Eastern Conference finals he went into a cold slump towards the end of the game. Bulls still won because Jordan wore down the Pacers with his constant activity on both ends of the floor.

You want to believe Bron is better, fine. But don't knack me for my belief that Jordan is better. Steve Nash won two MVPs back to back but I still feel Jason Kidd was a better player. Just my opinion.

Jordan was the man of his era, Magic the man of his, Wilt the man of his. Bron has dominated this era and rightfully so can say he was the man of this era. But that dominance is all they have in common.

Bron doesn't have to nor will he have to catch Jordan. He does things on the court we didn't know could be done. If you or future generations want to remember him as the greatest, kudos. But he still isn't Jordan.

 

[Slyfox696]

All those accolades he has is what makes to him(Jordan) better. Everything I listed in my my last post were individual accomplishments.

And LeBron has been MVP, Finals MVP, NBA first team, an All-Star, and first team All Defense (among other things). So, aside from scoring (which I've already given you/Jordan) and steals which is NOT a complete measure of defense, LeBron has done the exact same things MJ did. Thank you for proving my point.

There's roughly 16 seasons of proof to back up that claim.

But we're not talking about 16 seasons, we're talking about the two men at their best. And LeBron James is every bit as good as Jordan.

You want to believe Bron is better, fine. But don't knack me for my belief that Jordan is better.

I never have. I've knocked you for using asinine arguments like:

"Basketball,back then was way more aggressive, where as now the slightest hint of contact leads from a flagrant 1 foul."

"Jordan learned to jell with the team that was instilled around him. Would LeBron have a ring right now had he not left Cleveland and joined Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh?"

I don't care if you think Jordan is better, but have legitimate reasons. And for every reason you give me, you have to basically ignore LeBron James has done basically the same thing.

But he still isn't Jordan.

And Jordan wasn't Wilt. But to say Jordan is better than LeBron because...well, he's Jordan, is simply silly. LeBron, right now, is every bit as good of a basketball player as Michael Jordan ever was. And he seems like a much better person.

 

[klunderbunker]

Is Jordan better than LeBron? He might be. Both of them have things that they're better at than the other, but at the end of the day LeBron has had a great career already and is going to be one of the best of all time. As for the best of all time though, it's hard to say when James has at least five elite years left in him and probably eight or nine at least to go in the league. For all I know LeBron could break his ankle tomorrow and never be the same again.

I was a big Jordan fan and the NBA seemed to be a much bigger deal when Jordan was on top. That has nothing to do with who was a better player, but it leaves people with fonder memories of Jordan. Look at it from a wrestling perspective: wrestling was bigger under Hogan and Austin, but it doesn't mean they're light years ahead of Cena. People remember liking wrestling more at the time and it gives them a nostalgia feel to it. The same will be true when LeBron has been gone for several years: people will be able to put his career in a better perspective and stack things up a bit better.

Jordan might be better than LeBron at the moment and vice versa, but it's hard to say when he's still active. If the Heat had lost a year ago, it's a different discussion. If he wins another five titles and pulls ahead of Jordan, it's a different discussion. As of right now, I'd put Jordan ahead by a bit, but it's certainly not light years.

 

[J.J.]

Desire to win is my take on what makes Jordan better. LeBron's Heat is arguably more talented than Jordan's 72-10 Bulls squad. I just CANNOT see a Jordan led Bulls team losing on the level the Heat did in the finals.

How do you defend that and still say LeBron is better? LeBron as a player in the series played nothing short of perfect but as the face of a franchise you have to be vocal and command your teammates to play at a high level every night. After all you worked hard through 82 games and the playoffs to get to that point.

Say you're supervisor of a production based job, you're pulling your weight but your workers around you aren't. Do you speak up and demand more or do you wear yourself out while your peers stand and watch?

Bron lacks that command that Jordan had, that's not a statistic, or an award for that. LeBron saw a flashback of his Cleveland days just in this series alone and I almost feel sorry for the guy. But I must hold him accountable in the leadership department.

I can't look at Wade even though he has been there since his entry into the league, but when he was the face of the franchise we saw how mediocre the Heat were. Even now it seemed all that rest he was getting was to mask his age based regression.

 

[Slyfox696]

Desire to win is my take on what makes Jordan better. LeBron's Heat is arguably more talented than Jordan's 72-10 Bulls squad. I just CANNOT see a Jordan led Bulls team losing on the level the Heat did in the finals.

The BULLS may not have...but Jordan would have. Because Jordan lost plenty of times to the Celtics and Pistons.

You put Jordan on this year's Heat team and the Spurs still win it all. This year's Heat team was not more talented than any Bulls team Jordan played with.

How do you defend that and still say LeBron is better?

Question asked...

LeBron as a player in the series played nothing short of perfect

...question answered.

but as the face of a franchise you have to be vocal and command your teammates to play at a high level every night.

You can be vocal all you want, but it isn't going to make Battier any younger, Wade's knees any better, Bosh any stronger, Anderson any more athletic or Chalmers any better.

The Heat were not going to beat the Spurs. Like you said, LeBron played nearly perfect. Jordan would not have changed anything if you had swapped him for LeBron.

Say you're supervisor of a production based job, you're pulling your weight but your workers around you aren't. Do you speak up and demand more or do you wear yourself out while your peers stand and watch?

It depends. Is one of my co-workers recovering from back surgery? Is another getting ready to retire? Is a third working at a position he/she didn't apply for and was not trained for?

If so, nah, I wouldn't yell at them, I'd simply accept what was.

Bron lacks that command that Jordan had

If that's true, then why are the Heat LeBron's team, and not Wade's?

Even now it seemed all that rest he was getting was to mask his age based regression.

Exactly. Do you really think Jordan punching Wade in the face like he did to Steve Kerr would make Wade's knees any better?

Your entire premise is asinine. Jordan yelling at people wouldn't have changed this series. Jordan playing in LeBron's place wouldn't have changed this series. So holding against LeBron something Jordan experienced many times (failure in the playoffs due to poor teammates) is silly. Just because Jordan wasn't good enough to get his bad teams to the Finals like LeBron was doesn't mean Jordan should get praised for it. If anything, it's an argument in LeBron's favor that he HAS gotten such poor surrounding talent to the NBA Finals.

 

[AndThat'sTheBottomLine]

Cleveland with Lebron and a bunch of shitty players equals finals appearance. Jordan in the same situation equals first round knockout. It's funny though that this entire argument has absolutely nothing to do with the original question. that said, i think it would if it were true. ESPN does it because it makes more money but most fans will argue that the Heat are not the only good team in the NBA. Of course nostalgia causes people to look back and say that the Bulls were the only good team in the late 80's and 90's. Clearly it takes two teams to make a Finals. Now on to the argument, if you want to play the "Championships are the only thing that matters" game then Bill Russell is the greatest of all time. I don't agree with that statement mind you I'm just saying that rings aren't the only criteria to judge a player by. Lebron still has 5-10 years left. Just wait and see what he does. I love Jordan, but Lebron is as good now as Jordan ever was based off of stats alone, maybe a bit better even. Jordan versus Lebron is an old argument that has no business being brought up until Lebron's career is over.

 

[J.J.]

Championships are ultimately all that matters that's why these players are on teams to ignite chemistry in hopes of winning a championship. It is a large part that measures the success of a player in the league. LeBron came to Miami to have a better chance at winning a championship. Lebron leading his team or Jordan leading his team to a ring is what pits that player in an elite class.

 

[Slyfox696]

Championships are ultimately all that matters

Not when discussing the quality of individuals. If this was tennis, I'd buy your argument, but since a championship team requires about 8 guys (not 1), you cannot use a team accomplishment as the only indication of individual quality. Otherwise, Robert Horry is leagues better than Karl Malone.

Are you telling me Horry is better than Malone?

Lebron leading his team or Jordan leading his team to a ring is what pits that player in an elite class.

So Robert Horry is elite class? Steve Kerr is elite class?

No, championships alone aren't the only determining factor.

 

[J.J.]

So tell me something were Steve Kerr and Robert Horry considered the main scorers? While they had clutch moments...and I'd argue nobody more clutch than Big Shot Rob in big games. But did you ever see them win a finals MVP or carry their team to a championship?

 

[Slyfox696]

So tell me something were Steve Kerr and Robert Horry considered the main scorers? While they had clutch moments...and I'd argue nobody more clutch than Big Shot Rob in big games. But did you ever see them win a finals MVP or carry their team to a championship?

...so what you're saying is that championships AREN'T the only measures of quality? That we also have to take into account many more aspects of basketball?

That's what I've been saying all along.

 

[J.J.]

As I have said throughout this debate it is a big way to measure success. But within that I noted previously that a great player like Karl Malone is mainly remembered as being the guy that could never lead his team to a championship over Jordan's Bulls. Or to ever win a championship as a player - that sticks out more to people than the fact he's beyond only behind Kareem on the all-time scoring list. He's the only top 10 all time scorer currently to never win a ring(correct me if I'm wrong as I think Dirk has cracked top 10).

 

[Slyfox696]

As I have said throughout this debate it is a big way to measure success. But within that I noted previously that a great player like Karl Malone is mainly remembered as being the guy that could never lead his team to a championship over Jordan's Bulls. Or to ever win a championship as a player - that sticks out more to people than the fact he's beyond only behind Kareem on the all-time scoring list. He's the only top 10 all time scorer currently to never win a ring(correct me if I'm wrong as I think Dirk has cracked top 10).

Is it your contention Robert Horry was better than Karl Malone? Was Robert Horry and his 7 championships better than MJ?

My point is simple. Using team accomplishments to judge individual ability is asinine. LBJ has won tw championships. He's taken a terrible Cavaliers team to the Finals. He played nearly perfect this year in the Finals. Telling me that Jordan is better than LeBron, simply because the Bulls were better than the Cavs or Heat is silly.

 

[J.J.]

I never said Robert Horry was better than Karl Malone. Outside of Utah, Karl Malone is largely forgotten due to the fact he never won a ring.

John Stockton is the greatest pure passing Point Guard I've seen - I'd argue better than Magic with less talent. Notice i said passer because clearly Magic was taller and could play different positions. I think it would be more fair to compare LeBron to Magic. Even though John Stockton was a gifted passer and - ultimately he will also be known as the guy that couldn't win the big one.

When Kobe won his 5th ring with the Lakers, ESPN instantly started their campaign of can he win #6 like Jordan? As soon as Spurs most recently won, I read an ESPN article in which the.author wrote; "Is Tim Duncan the best thing since Jordan". That's brought up due to Duncan LEADING his team to multiple championships.

Even with Kobe and how talented he has been and consistently averaged in the high 20s point per game wise widely throughout his storied career he faced the questions of could he lead a team to a championship without the help of Shaq? Once he accomplished that feat twice, the Jordan comparisons resurged.

Again, was Robert Horry the leader on his team or did he just happen to be on the right team at the right time? Can you argue during his stints with the Lakers and Spurs he was the main go to guy they relied heavily upon?

I'll give you the championships are a team accomplishment argument but what about Finals MVPs that Jordan won?

The sport world for the bigger part is always going to look at a player leading their team to a championship as perhaps the biggest highlight of their career. Those 6 rings he led his team to victories on will stand out to many, more than the 14 times he been an All-Star or 5 MVP awards.

Phil Jackson has only won one Coach of the year award. An individual feat - George Karl won the award last season with Denver but then was fired. Avery Johnson won it with Dallas following a 60 win season, then was fired following a dismal season. The thing they have in common is they each one the award once - but clearly Phil Jackson is a much better coach than them. Lenny Wilkens has most victories as head coach to go along with his coach of year award(s?). Don Nelson and Pat Riley have won the award more than once - would you argue they're better coaches? The fact Phil only won that award once -an individual accomplishment does that mean those 3 coaches are better than him? I'd argue the 11 championship rings he coached his teams to were better. In the sports world that's what measures his success.

The game is a team sport all the way through. Someone set a screen for Jordan to get open to make a shot. Someone missed a shot for LeBron to get the rebound, or he passed inside to Bosh and he beat his defender to the basket to collect the assist. But that's a whole nother discussion.

Baseball is a team sport but the hitting aspect is where the individual's accomplishments are more so measured. That's why the All-Time homerun list is the biggest standout. If Miguel Cabrera hits a homerun, it's credited to him as well as the runs batted in. That's just one example - that is a sport where you can truly measure individual stats and say hey he was an all-time great.

Is Babe Ruth more remembered in that sport for 714 or his 7 championships?

Ken Griffey, Jr. never won a World Series ring but his success in baseball created fond memories and he's often viewed as an all-time great. In the sports world that's a sport where individual accomplishments are looked at over championships. Even though it should be a balance.

 

[AndThat'sTheBottomLine]

Championships are ultimately all that matters that's why these players are on teams to ignite chemistry in hopes of winning a championship. It is a large part that measures the success of a player in the league. LeBron came to Miami to have a better chance at winning a championship. Lebron leading his team or Jordan leading his team to a ring is what pits that player in an elite class.

So you believe Bill Russell is the greatest basketball player ever then? That's ULTIMATELY what you're saying.

 

[J.J.]

So you believe Bill Russell is the greatest basketball player ever then? That's ULTIMATELY what you're saying.

A player leading their team to a championship is largely what measured their success. Bill Russell had the advantage of playing in an era where guys his size weren't playing professional basketball. But I still consider him one of the greatest, out of any position.

 

[Slyfox696]

So you believe Bill Russell is the greatest basketball player ever then? That's ULTIMATELY what you're saying.

What he's saying is that an argument which makes Jordan look better than LeBron he'll use, but when the argument is flipped to where Jordan looks inferior, then suddenly other criteria is more important.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

What he's saying is that an argument which makes Jordan look better than LeBron he'll use, but when the argument is flipped to where Jordan looks inferior, then suddenly other criteria is more important.

So what makes Lebron as good as if not better than Jordan? Because to me it seems impossible to judge since his most successful years have been played in a deficient conference. Some of those years he was on a stacked team made up the close to, if not the best three players in said conference. He was arguably the second best player on his team, his first two years in Miami.

It seems like everyone who wants to call Lebron the greatest biggest argument that separates him from Jordan was that whenever Lebron's teams have lost it is management, the other player's, and other team's fault.