Slyfox696,
You can retort to calling my logic stupid. But why?
Because your logic is stupid. That's not a personal shot, just an evaluation of your evidence.
Your definition of clutch is quite different than the rest of the world.
No, it isn't. My definition of clutch is quite consistent with anyone whose knowledge of basketball is worth listening to. A bunch of city league ballplayers don't qualify.
Being clutch, to any reputable coach or sports psychologist, means optimizing your focus during crunch time, and being able to maximize your efficiency. In basketball terms, it means making the best basketball play, regardless of the circumstances. It has nothing to do with making one shot.
I'll give you an example. Everyone remembers Jordan's shot in the NCAA championship game as a freshman. Sure, that's clutch. But what people DON'T remember is that on the next possession, the Georgetown player passed it directly to a Tar Heel. Why? Because the situation was so full of pressure, his focus narrowed so tightly he was unable to process all the stimuli on the floor necessary to make the best decision. In this case, he did not comprehend the team he was passing to. Here's a video of it (start at 1 hour and 15 minutes):
The Georgetown player was so overcome by the moment, he passed to a man who clearly was not on his team. Being clutch means being able to process all the stimuli necessary to make the best play.
LeBron does that.
You cannot compare Heat 2011 season to Jordan's 1995 season...well I guess you could since you're really reaching for logic. Jordan returned to basketball one month before the playoffs after TWO years and you want to talk about team chemistry?
So...what you're saying is different circumstances play upon the ability to be successful?
So the Bulls were supposed to instantly click.
So three players who were used to being the center of attention were supposed to instantly click, especially with little to no supporting cast?
It's amazing how people can excuse things for Jordan for which they crucify LeBron.
That was just a short period of time Westbrook was out compared to two years Jordan was out.
Yes, circumstances affect chemistry which affects success. That's my point.
I'm not criticizing Jordan for not winning, I'm pointing out how silly it is for people to criticize LeBron for not.
Outside of Pippen who were all these hall of famers Jordan played with?
Dennis Rodman deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. His rebounding was second to none and his defense was greatly underrated. He won't get in the Hall of Fame because he didn't score and he acts the way he does, but Rodman was an all-time NBA great. And don't forget Phil Jackson.
So you're telling me you knew Pippen coming to the Bulls was going to go down as arguably one of the best forwards to play the game?
What does that have to do with anything? My point was criticizing LeBron for having to go someplace where he could play with good players because Jordan had them handed to him is stupid.
But tell me who the hall of famers were? Because you definitely knew when Phil Jackson replaced Doug Collins that 23 years later he would have enough rings for every finger? Just off top of my head...John Paxson, Steve Kerr, BJ Armstrong, Luc Longley, Toni Kukoc, Horace Grant, Bill Wennington, Bill Cartright, Will Perdue, Ron Harper, ect, ect, ect are hall of famers?
See, this is why I'm calling your logic stupid. You don't even bother to understand what is being said before you go off making obviously stupid statements.
Basketball wasn't aggressive back then?
No more in the 90s when Jordan won than it is today. Saying otherwise is just nonsense.
So Detroit got their nickname from showing good sportsmanship on the court?
I'm sorry, was Detroit worth a damn when Jordan won his titles?
The whole point of me pointing out that Jordan won defensive player of the year award is because it's a rare feature for a Guard.
Except that it wasn't when Jordan won it. Jordan won it in 1988. Before Jordan, 4 of the 5 winners were guards. Jordan made it 5 guards out of 6.
Furthermore, Jordan never won Defensive Player of the Year during his run of championships. You're making the classic mistake of taking the absolute best of every part of Jordan's career, instead of focusing on the one or two years you think he was best.
Even with Pippen becoming a Bull that didn't change the fact that Jordan was still extremely good on the defensive side of the ball and was a regular all first team defensive player.
And LeBron is regularly regarded as one of the best defenders in the league, plus one of the most versatile. LeBron wins this easily.
The Jordan comparison gets old. LeBron doesn't have the mental toughness or the killer instinct like Jordan did.
What a load of garbage. What you really mean to say is that LeBron wasn't an asshole like Jordan. But not being an asshole doesn't mean LeBron doesn't want to win.
This "killer instinct" argument is stupid and nothing more than a last resort for LeBron haters and/or Jordan lovers to use when actual facts fail.
At end of day championship reigns are superior to individual accomplishments to a large degree.
Not when deciding who was a better player. Championships are a team accomplishment. Even the man you hail as the greatest ever couldn't win a title until Scottie and Phil got there.
There really won't be another Jordan.
I totally agree. And there will never be another LeBron.
But what we're talking about is the quality of the two players and LeBron James is every bit as good now as Michael ever was.
So why am I wrong for praising Kobe as second closes to thing to Jordan since his playing days?
Because LeBron is better than Kobe. That's not hard to understand.
I'm not even a Kobe fan but I will give him the credit he deserves. I admire him most for sticking with his team even through frustrating times and especially when he has had opportunity to go elsewhere...unlike, LeBron of course.
He's also playing for a franchise which has shown itself to be capable of putting talent on the floor..."unlike, LeBron of course".
At the end of the day, I'll pose you two questions.
1) Do you honestly think if you remove LeBron's production in this series (which was phenomenal, look it up) with Michael Jordan, do you think it would have made any difference?
2) And since I think we both know the answer to #1 is "no", then I'll ask...once we establish that team championships are not a good indication of individual quality, can you give me any cold hard objective facts to show me Jordan was definitively better than LeBron? I don't want ambiguous "killer instinct" comments, I want facts. Don't get me wrong, I understand intangibles are important, but LeBron has all the intangibles as well. I want definitive proof of what Jordan was better at than LeBron.
Agree with most of your points. I came into this thread defending Lebron but the fanboying and baiting by Slyfox turned me into a Lebron basher in this thread just because I believe Jordan was the better player.
You're trying to tell me Mourning and Mutumbo were elite centers in order to defend Jordan and you call me a fanboy/baiter? Unreal.
Look, I understand you don't understand basketball history very well. You've admitted that. Let's do this:
Take away championships (which is an asinine measure of an individual's quality). What can you objectively say Jordan was better at than LeBron. I'll grant you PPG. What else do you have? In fact, I believe you said before the reason you think Jordan was better was because big men were better. Ignoring for a moment that doesn't really make sense (while I understand what you're saying, it's still harkening to the championship argument), the fact is big men WEREN'T dominant in the game when Jordan played. That was just a false statement.
So what was Jordan better at than LeBron, aside from PPG?
