Do "Power Wrestlers" Bare A Stigma From The IWC?

[Tenta]

By now, we're all aware that Titus O' Neil is gone from the NXT Competition. Again, not exactly my first choice, but then again, I don't see him winning the competition, so this seemed an inevitability, really. However, a lot can be said that Titus got the shaft. He only wrestled in two tag matches, and was never really given much time in the ring. Combined with what people assumed was a lack of charisma, which mind you he was the only NXT competitor to have his own catchphrase, spawn from an admitted mistake, and it didn't seem he'd last long. But there's something that still strikes me as odd regarding his elimination, and that was the general bias the WWE Universe, and smarks, have to wrestlers that are very muscular.

Another example? How about Ezekial Jackson? I've seen people on this forum rip Jackson to shreds over a supposed lack of ability. That he wasn't a technician, and thus, is not a good wrestler. It seems to be that any wrestler that is extremely muscular seems to get the reputation that he's terrible, and thus, needs to be eliminated immediately. Personally, I believe that the IWC has become ludicrously delusional in how they view big, muscular wrestlers.

Allow me to explain. You see, I've seen wrestlers like Mark Henry, Big Show, et all ripped to shreds over a supposed lack of ability. But, when you really think about, why do we expect these giants to have the technical ability of someone twice their size? From what high source have we been given the decree that big men have to work like their smaller counterparts. While it may look neat, the fact is that having large wrestlers work like technicians is a horrible case of ring psychology. Why should a power based wrestler work a submission style, when his powerful strikes and slams are probably more likely to be effective? Why shouldn't that limited offensive style be seen as effective, when it looks like it hurt like hell? You could train a muscular wrestler to be a technician, but in doing so, you ruin one of the many focal points about giants that have been true for centuries; that they're powerful enough to knock you out with one blow. That, in itself, tells far more of a story than you ver could having a big men working like a 220 lb'er. We all know Vince has a fixation with bodybuilders, and it's my belief that because we know this, that we have become fickle and difficult, and have decided that the "big me" is an archetype no longer needed in pro wrestling. Or, if we need big men, that he'd better work a match with the speed of a cruiserweight, or he deserves to be cut.

Just a bit of a stream of consciousness, but do wrestlers like Titus, Ezekial, Mark Henry and the like receive an unwarranted stigma from the IWC? Furthermore, does it affect these men's careers?

 

[The Doctor]

Oh absolutely they do. Wrestlers that aren't technical or flashy and rely on big strong moves to get over are routinely shat on by the IWC for being "boring", "bad", or "only knowing five moves". To add to your list, wrestlers like John Cena and Batista are regularly accused of not being able to wrestle because they're power guys, yet their feud together was excellent and produced some very good matches.

I really don't think their careers are affected by the IWC, most of the time. Cena is doing well for himself. The Big Show was the top face on Smackdown (though I really feel it was time for him to win the title again...). Titus was the only one I could see bing affected by the IWC's natural dislike of musclemen, but if the IWC had that much power over the votes then Eli Cottonwood would probably have gotten voted off first, since he's really another Khali. Titus was showing potential.

People need to realize that not everyone needs to flip around or know fifty submissions in order to work well. A big strong guy isn't going to go around moonsaulting. I expect to see him pick up someone and throw them down. It's realistic, and it works for their character.

 

[Nate DaMac]

I think it's more or less the "I'm going to hate so and so because I'm different and cool" persona that has completely consumed to IWC. Despite the fact that some of the most legendary performers in the business were usually the muscle bound power houses and/or brawlers, they still seem to be completely sold on the thought that the Christians, Bryan Danielsons, and Shelton Benjamins of the world are destined to be great.

I've never understood the animosity toward the big men in the business. Sure The Big Show's matches aren't exactly fast paced, but when the hell did it become written that wrestling always has to be? Do you really want to see a 7' tall 500lb man doing arm drags and snapnares? Why wouldn't he use his most obvious attribute?

I've always thought that these technically sound performers the IWC drools over are truly where they belong, the mid card. Throughout history, where were all the technically sound guys? Ricky Steamboat was a fantastic Intercontinental Champion and put on some of the most memorable matches and moments in history. But does that mean they made a mistake by putting him on the card earlier than Hulk Hogan or the Ultimate Warrior? You know, the guys that were drawing in all these fans in the first place. One exception to the rule for me would have to be Bret Hart, but even still when he was in the prime of his career, the business was in a serious drought. That is until the new face of the company emerged, the powerhouse brawler in Steve Austin.

Basically what I'm getting at is that technically sound performers don't usually rake in the paper. When you look back at the booms in the wrestling industry, there was usually a muscular, power oriented performer in the driver seat. Whether it was Hogan, SCSA, or even now in Cena. The IWC will continuously bitch and moan about there favorite "Little Engines that Could" not getting the spotlight, but in all honesty, they belong right where they are.

 

[Klown_Karnage]

I think you raise a good point here. Many wrestlers who specialize in the power game do get a lot of stick for not having greater...for lack of a better term "creativity" in their move set (despite the fact that it is probably impossible and definitely not a good idea for someone like Big Show to...say...moonsault from the top rope.) What you say is true.

But then again, cruserweights are often criticized for not being big enough to be "believable" against larger opponents. Many technical wrestlers are criticized for not bringing enough "punch" to the party and many of the more acrobatic ones are accused of being all flash and no substance.

I think which wrestler will be defended and which wrestler will be criticized all comes down to who is the individual favorite of the one making comments in question. There are a lot of camps in the IWC each with their favorite type of wrestler. I think it all just depends on who you ask.

 

[Mitch Henessey]

I remember how Batista would constantly get torn apart in a lot of threads in here. I never really liked Batista, but I was a fan of his most recent heel turn. I never thought Batista was as bad as a lot of people made him out to be. Batista was just another average power guy who had an amazing physique, and the size to go with it. Now if Batista was more of a technical wrestler, then I'm sure the IWC would praise him beyond belief.

But why would you want to see guys like Batista, Mark Henry, or Big Show work have a technical match? They're giants. They should be destroying their opponents with devastating moves such as a powerbomb, the world's strongest slam, or the knockout punch. Fans want to see big men use their incredible size and strength.

So yeah, the IWC does have a tendency to run down big men sometimes. I don't think the stigma from the IWC affects their careers. Henry, and Show get pretty good pops every now and then. Even when Show and Henry were heels, they still would get a good amount of heat. So no, I don't think the stigma from the IWC affects these men's careers.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

You bring up an good point Tenta as there is a lot of Power Wrestlers out there that get a bad rep because of their supposed lack of ability. The thing about power wrestlers that people seem to forget is that they aren't supposed to be pretty because they don't have to be, the best way for a power wrestler to get over with the fans is for them to use a simple, but effective offense, and plow over their opposition as quickly as humanly possible, guys like the Road Warriors, Goldberg and more recently Batista have proven this fact over and over again. Is Batista pretty in the ring? No, but he doesn't have to be because he is powerful enough where a simple clothesline is enough to take out his opponent, strike, strike, spinebuster, spear, Batista Bomb, that's all it takes when your his size.

I also agree a lot that Power wrestlers moving around like cruiserweights is horrible ring psychology (and lets be honest, this is the most important part of a match, if you have no psychology, then you have nothing). For example, the big show can perform a moonsault, but why would he, it takes him 5 minutes to set the guy up for it where a chokeslam takes 10 seconds and is more effective.

All in all I have to agree with you on all fronts. You can make arguements against it with guys like the Undertaker, but someone like that has never been built as a Power wrestler, more like a guy that cannot be hurt.

 

[shattered dreams]

Oh absolutely they do. Wrestlers that aren't technical or flashy and rely on big strong moves to get over are routinely shat on by the IWC for being "boring", "bad", or "only knowing five moves". To add to your list, wrestlers like John Cena and Batista are regularly accused of not being able to wrestle because they're power guys, yet their feud together was excellent and produced some very good matches.

I really don't think their careers are affected by the IWC, most of the time. Cena is doing well for himself. The Big Show was the top face on Smackdown (though I really feel it was time for him to win the title again...). Titus was the only one I could see bing affected by the IWC's natural dislike of musclemen, but if the IWC had that much power over the votes then Eli Cottonwood would probably have gotten voted off first, since he's really another Khali. Titus was showing potential.

People need to realize that not everyone needs to flip around or know fifty submissions in order to work well. A big strong guy isn't going to go around moonsaulting. I expect to see him pick up someone and throw them down. It's realistic, and it works for their character.

I disagree. The IWC has nothing against muscular wrestlers just for the way they look. The problem is not fan perception it is those in charge thinking such an appearance is a talent by itself that excuses lacking the other qualities you seem to admit a lot of these guys do not have. You admit a lot of these guys are not technical or flashy. To me not flashy does mean boring, not technical means they are not a good wrestler. Now there are other ways they could be entertaining but for some reason increasingly they are booked as big strong guy does power moves and nothing else. If you look into the past they would give big guys gimmicks as well and they could get over with them. I think what the IWC dislikes is the amount of lazy "creations" for these muscular guys. Combine that with companies like WWE taking a lot of the impact out of moves it is hard to get excited about only power moves that really are not all that powerful. Especially when you have several no personality guys doing the same "muscular movesets" in the same show. I am not sure why it is surprising that people are not overly fond of one-dimensional characters that have been done a lot. Size just is not the draw it once was because it is more common now.

 

[Tenta]

Figures. The one fan who has a problem with power wrestlers, and he comes from TNA.

I disagree. The IWC has nothing against muscular wrestlers just for the way they look. The problem is not fan perception it is those in charge thinking such an appearance is a talent by itself that excuses lacking the other qualities you seem to admit a lot of these guys do not have.

Eh.... What? Could you word this in a way that, you know, isn't a run on sentence?

So let me get this straight.... You feel it's the laziness of promoters to not have big guys learn how to do the flippy flip?

How about... It just doesn't make sense. Seriously, if a man is strong, why wouldn't he use that as his ultimate strength in the ring. You have to assume that a big man is going to use what's at his advantage to win matches. And if a guy has size and strength to his advantage, why shouldn't he use that.

Again.... It's a simple thing called ring psychology. Get it?

You admit a lot of these guys are not technical or flashy. To me not flashy does mean boring, not technical means they are not a good wrestler.

Right... Because working rest holds for all of five minutes is more interesting.

Look, professional wrestling isn't measured by the moves you know, it's how you get the crowd to react. The Big Show may not know much, but he gets more of a pop from a limited moveset than John Morrison, because he knows how to work a crowd. And that involves using his magnificent size to get the crowd to gawk and gaze.

Now there are other ways they could be entertaining but for some reason increasingly they are booked as big strong guy does power moves and nothing else. If you look into the past they would give big guys gimmicks as well and they could get over with them. I think what the IWC dislikes is the amount of lazy "creations" for these muscular guys.

Again, it isn't lazy, it's smart. It's realizing what you have a product, and playing it up to as a high as possible. It's simple, and it gets a good pop. What's so hard to understand about that for you? Pro Wrestling doesn't have to be Gone With the Wind, nor should you expect it to be.

Combine that with companies like WWE taking a lot of the impact out of moves it is hard to get excited about only power moves that really are not all that powerful. Especially when you have several no personality guys doing the same "muscular movesets" in the same show. I am not sure why it is surprising that people are not overly fond of one-dimensional characters that have been done a lot. Size just is not the draw it once was because it is more common now.

Well, now we're entering an era where men like Mysterio, Guerrero, Angle and the likes are now champions. It isn't as though these giants still don't tower over their foes, right?

Look, I get it, you're an Impact Player, so you're not used to psychology. But let me spell it out. Big Men use their incredible strength to get over. Doing anything more is harmful to the aura of the big man. See; Hernandez and Matt Morgan, who could be intimidating, but are now just like every other wrestler on the roster. They have lost their mystique, really.

 

[Judah's Lion]

tenta,

you make some very good points. love the name, by the way. earthquake was one of my favorite wrestlers back in the day. RIP.

concerning the muscle guys in wrestling and the IWC... i have to go 50/50 on this one. i know that sounds so cheap and cliche, but there's a lot that could and probably will be said regarding this topic.

the thing is this: the IWC will hate on anybody at any given time and sometimes without a whole lot of merit. guys like Angle will always get praised for his in-ring abilities and he should. he's amazing and one of the best at what he does, perhaps of all time. Jericho the same. both guys are great on the mic and great in the ring and can put on a match with just about anybody and make it look good. they can feud with any title and come out the winner or the loser and still make their opponent look good. they are amazing at what they do.

yet, when a big guy does the same, it's crap. Cena and Batista are not my favorite two wrestlers of all time or even of current time. i don't wish death upon them either. i appreciate them for what they are. sports entertainers that are telling a story that is fed to them and that can do things physically in the ring that i cannot do. for that, i pay to watch them. simple as that. sometimes i wish that both would up their game a bit, but for the most part, they play their roles well and their last feud was actually very good. and very believable. and very logical. they're two big guys that weren't trying to make the other bleed or tap or surprise with a quick moonsault win. they were trying to beat each other up, powerslam one another, etc. it's what they do.

thankfully, the IWC won't affect anyone's careers with their fickle admiration for the next cool thing to love and the next guy to hate. guys like Undertaker, Kane and Big Show have broken some stigmas about the big guys. they still rely on their size and strength with power moves like the knockout punch and chokeslam, but Big Show will still try a superplex sometimes, Undertaker will try a submission or dive outside the ring, Kane will dive off the top rope, etc. Bam Bam Bigelow and Vader lived on the top rope.

all that said, i'd argue that any big guy is gonna be as good as he is written. but that goes for anybody, including Danielson and Angle and Jericho. Jericho was not fantastic in WCW. same guy. different writing. he's not just a product of his skills and abilities and potential. he's also a product of the writers. same goes for Rey and Eddie. i liked them both in WCW. i loved them both in WWF. same guys. different writing.

and as Tenta stated in the original thread, it only makes sense for big guys to focus on size and strength. sure, they're allowed to try other things, but the focus should be on their strengths. it's the same reason i don't expect Danielson to be doing a gorilla press slam or Angle to do a chokeslam. focus on the strengths. it's what smart people do.

 

[Super Crazy]

I completely agree with this. Big men use power moves for a reason. They realize they can't move around as much or be as agile as the smaller, quicker guys in the ring.

This thread goes hand in hand with the Big Show thread on the Smackdown section. People say they don't like the Big Show because he's slow and irrelevant and overrated. I don't see how he's overrated at all, he's good at what he does for a man of his size and stature.

Big and muscular wrestlers often receive the " You can't wrestle " chants, yet they can wrestle, they can wrestle quite well in fact. I mean do you expect guys like John Cena or Batista to come off the top ropes doing flips and springboards off the ropes? I certainly don't. I certainly don't think it has negative effects on their careers though, as most of the big men and/or muscular men have solid spots on the roster in the WWE.

 

[Chicago1989]

This is a good thread. To me, I personally don't have a problem with the "big, muscled-up guys" using power moves and things like that. If that's how they "wrestle", then I can understand that. There's always going to be a variety of different styles of anything in any facet in life.

My only problem is how these "6'6" monsters" are presented. The WWE is or was so quick in pushing these guys because of their look and how they gotta look "marketable" and intimidating. I look at them as nothing but Ken dolls, Nathan Drakes, and the promoter's wet dream because of how they think that it's a muscleman exhibition instead of a wrestling show. That my only problem.

 

[shattered dreams]

Figures. The one fan who has a problem with power wrestlers, and he comes from TNA.

Who said I had a problem with all power wrestlers? It is always easy to win an argument when you can pretend you get to choose what other people said. I never got into it but a guy like the big show is absolutely a talent while a guy like Khali absolutely is not. To imply all power wrestlers get an unfair reputation is as misguided as saying they all suck. My opinion is somewhere in the middle. Seriously though, the only reason Titus O'neil got voted off was IWC does not like power guys? Give me a break. I did not know only IWC people voted. The key elements that some big guys do not have are agility (for their size), character and in-ring psychology.

So let me get this straight.... You feel it's the laziness of promoters to not have big guys learn how to do the flippy flip?

You have some seriously poor reading comprehension if that is what you got out of it. I am saying it is lazy to book a muscle guy as hey look it is a strong guy and nothing else. Never said anything about flips making someone a good wrestler. How hard is it to get relatively big and slam someone? Not very these days. If the wrestler can add something else into the mix then they could be a worthwhile talent. If they cannot, then they suck and are boring.

Look, professional wrestling isn't measured by the moves you know, it's how you get the crowd to react. The Big Show may not know much, but he gets more of a pop from a limited moveset than John Morrison, because he knows how to work a crowd. And that involves using his magnificent size to get the crowd to gawk and gaze.

The Big Show is a physical freak and does well for his size. Titus O'neil is not anywhere near the big shows size nor are a lot of these guys. Uncommon size like the Big Show's still is a draw. However, how powerful is that punch he does really? My psychological reaction to that one is to laugh, not to be in awe of his power.

Well, now we're entering an era where men like Mysterio, Guerrero, Angle and the likes are now champions. It isn't as though these giants still don't tower over their foes, right?

The issue is not the people they face, it is the other wrestlers in the company. When the world's strongest man is a career midcarder, how does that immediately put all strong guys in a position of obvious dominance? The sheer amount of muscular guys on the roster devalues the appeal of size by itself.

Look, I get it, you're an Impact Player, so you're not used to psychology. But let me spell it out. Big Men use their incredible strength to get over. Doing anything more is harmful to the aura of the big man. See; Hernandez and Matt Morgan, who could be intimidating, but are now just like every other wrestler on the roster. They have lost their mystique, really.

What is so mysterious about going to the gym? There is nothing harmful about developing a character that entertains the crowd. I am sure that Mark Henry does his stupid arm thing for no reason. Oh wait people like that and root for him because of it? What a crazy idea. Actually interacting with the crowd instead of only bodyslamming people to get over. Size + something else (not flips) is necessary. To say it is not is a joke. To pretend wrestling companies do not try and force that something else on a physique they might like is a delusion.

 

[Invert]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with "Power Wrestlers" the problem lies in the booking of said Power Wrestlers. On RAW right now, you have Kozlov and Khali who pretty much have the same exact gimmick, a big foreigner. Mark Henry is pretty much a high class jobber. Skip Sheffield and Michael Tarver are soon to be added into the mix. Out of all those guys, two of them can't cut a promo, two are green, and the other is pretty much "enhancement talent". WCW did Goldberg right as a power wrestler, he was a force against whoever he faced.

The other thing power wrestlers have going against them is their lack of moves. I'm not saying they need to be doing shooting star presses like Evan Bourne, but with their large size, they could have some pretty nasty submissions. A lot of them are very sloppy in the ring and have gone straight to the big leagues instead of honing their craft in the Indys and Developmental leagues. Khali is a prime example of that. So you end up with matches on RAW that are Khali vs Santino that end up being botchfests instead of a decent match between two similar sized competitors.

 

[vanderhevel]

size and strength are so common now that its lost its luster. personally i would rather have a monster like vader or big show as champion than someone like evan bourne or rey mysterio. i think that most of the big power guys are never used properly or pushed right. look at koslov, when he first came out he was a beast and now hes not really doing anything.

of course there are big behemoths like khali that put on boring ass matches and give big guys a bad name.

 

[Dr. Stinger A. Zoidberg]

They definitely carry a lot of criticism on their backs for not being good technical wrestlers, but you have got to remember that these guys that are 400 pounds, are very slow in the ring. Therefore, they are unable to do much. As opposed to a superstar like William Regal, or Bryan Danielson, who weigh 1/3 of what the giants weigh, and are able to move around quicker, and get some good technical wrestling into a match. They are quicker in the ring so they can spend more time on the mat being technical.

When you have a guy like Big Show or Andre The Giant, who are 450+ pounds, it is going to be a hell of a lot harder to get a technical match out of them, because they cant move around in the ring as fast as a Rey Mysterio, or and Evan Bourne. Why? Because they are so big, they can't make up in speed, they make it up in power. Like Doc said, people like Cena and Batista get a hell of a lot of heat for only knowing a limited amount of moves, but they are power guys, and their feuds and matches were very good.

Does it affect a superstars career? In a way, it does. It forces one of these superstars to gain a lot of unwanted heat from the fans because they're too boring in the ring. That will cause them to get no crowd reaction at shows, and fans will see their matches as "bathroom breaks." The reason being, fans don't like to see slow matches with the giant powerhouse superstars. They want to see technical wrestling with cruiserweights.

 

[Soapguy]

Here's another Impact Player here who's not a fan of some power wrestlers. I think assuming that big guys can't wrestle is complete bullshit, but assuming that they CAN wrestle just because of their size has the same degree of suckage. Strength alone does not an entertaining match make. That's not saying that there aren't talented big guys, Brock Lesnar, Van Vader, Matt Morgan, Awesome Kong (I mark hard for this chick), and many other power wrestlers have skills and know how to put on entertaining matches, but there IS a lot of trash in the power wrestler category that needs to be disposed of as soon as possible. That's not to say that there isn't a lot of trash in other categories, but their trash rarely get's pushed to the moon.

I saw two posters mention psychology. . . Let's say a wrestler gets in the ring and does the same three moves over and over. Me, being a guy who likes strategy is going to train to combat those three moves and completely kick is his ass. So, in my mind, it doesn't really make sense for someone with 3-5 moves to keep winning matches because eventually some fundamental or technically superior wrestlers going to find a way out of them/around them. . . . I don't care how powerful the powerful wrestler is.

 

[Sean Valjean]

Absolutely. The IWC pretty much believes that if you can't perform 1004 holds or do a 450 Splash, you're pretty much shit.

People need to realize that it's not that big guys can't wrestle, they just wrestle a different style. Do you really expect The Big Show to chain-wrestle every match? You might not like it, but that doesn't mean they can't wrestle.

However, I'm going to play devil's advocate for a second and say that there is some ground to that stigma. Sure, bigger guys are limited to what they can do, but that doesn't mean they can't expand their offence. There have been big guys that really can only do like 4 or 5 moves (Khali) and it gets boring, hence the hate.

Guys like Vader, The Undertaker, and even The Big Show have a quite an offensive repertoire given their size. Sure big guys can't do all the moves that normal sized men can, but they could still try to use more moves that cater to their style instead of being so limited. Though that depends on the wrestler in question, of course (physically speaking)

I don't think it affects these men's careers professionally since they're doing what's expected of them. Hell, Khali's one of the worst around and he's had a solid spot on the roster for four years now, so other than hate from the fans, these guys are just fine.

 

[JGlass]

The elimination of Titus O'Neil is a huge disappointment to me, as he was one of my three favorites.

And Tenta is right, the IWC does have some sort of irrational hatred for the monsters and big men, and I don't really understand it... so I'm going to try to break it down for myself and anyone who reads this post.

As far as I see it, there are FOUR different types of wrestlers.

High Fliers- These are usually one of the more popular groups among the IWC, though not all high fliers are loved by the entirety of the IWC (see Jeff Hardy). Obviously, these are the guys that have top rope finishers, do suicide dives almost every match, and they also seem to generally use their feet for their offense more than their hands. A popular IWC figure that is a high flier is Kaval.

Technical Wrestlers These guys make wrestling matches look the most realistic by putting their opponents in impressive submissions and using their brain more than their brawn. It seems any good wrestler should have a little bit of technical wrestling ability in them, but some are just bursting with it. These guys include Bret Hart and Kurt Angle, and of course, the IWC's golden boy, Brian Danielson.

Brawlers They seem to be the bane of the IWC, but they do have SOME support. They attempt to make the seemingly simple act of pounding and stomping someone's face in an art. Generally, it just looks like they are beating someone's face in though. These guys tend to get by more on their personality than their ability. Can't really think of anyone who the IWC is in love with that is a brawler, but examples include John Cena and Stone Cold Steve Austin.

Power Wrestlers The group of men this thread is named for are the biggest guys the roster has. They are known for their stunning size (Big Show, Mark Henry), their bad attitudes (Kane, Diesel), or getting by on their size alone (Hulk Hogan, The Warrior). The good ones can use their strength to execute power moves like power bombs, powerslams, and moves where they can throw their opponents out of the ring with little assistance.

The problem with power wrestlers is that many of them don't use the power moves they should because they are not athletic enough, or not trained well enough. Mark Henry has the strength to use the power moves, but he is definitely not in the proper shape to execute them and make them look realistic, and who knows if he is well trained enough.

Titus O'Neil, on the other hand, is CLEARLY athletic enough, but he needs more training. He has everything a wrestler needs except the training, and even then, he looked pretty good in the ring last night. I suspect he only needs about 6 months more of practice and we'll see him in the main event.

So finally, to really respond to the original post, you're right, the IWC definitely has an under appreciation for the big men of wrestling, but sometimes it's deserved.