Did the feud with Shane kill Orton's momentum?

[Suneeboy]

This past month we've witnissed what is in my opinion, one of the worst feuds/angles that we've seen in a couple of years in the WWE. Not the part with Orton kicking Vince, or the awesome promos, but the actual confrontations between Orton and Shane from the day after the Royal Rumble, up until the Feb. 16th edition of RAW.

Quick timeline for better analysis:

1) Shane spears Orton and throws the weakest punches I've ever seen in pro wrestling, all the while not being able to be held down by both Rhodes and Dibiase

2) Orton fights the Undertaker and is about to get owned until Rhodes/Dibiase interfere. Then of all people to save the Undertaker, Shane McMahon comes in for the save???????? What the fuck??????? Are you kidding me?

3) Orton and Shane have a street fight that Orton would've lost if Priceless didn't interfere. Orton was barely able to contain pitiful out of shape Shane.

4) Feb 16 RAW they have an unsanctioned match and Shane gets the best of Orton and only takes Shane out after Rhodes and Dibiase interfere.

Now before you reply with "He's a heel he's supposed to do this or do that", I say fuck that. He is the new age bad ass Randy Orton, why the hell is he even getting competition from Lame McMahon? One punch or one chair shot, or one strong slam should finish him OFF! How am I now supposed to believe that Orton stands a chance AT ALL against HHH or whoever at WM?

Why didn't they just have Orton demolish Shane? Why did they have to make Shane look strong? In my opinion, Shane STILL looks weak, because he can't sell any offense. He hits Orton with a fucking Dasani water bottle on RAW in the stands, did anyone see that? Orton had no choice but to sell it.

What a debacle. Orton did a great job at selling everything, but Shane really drove this storyline into the shit hole. Orton needs a huge mean streak WITHOUT Rhodes/Dibiase to regain some character credibility in my book. What do you all think?

 

[The Rob]

DiBiase and Rhode's interferences during the two matchs Shane and Orton had were, in my opinion, done to try to make Legacy look more dominant than they actually are. Though I can see where your coming from. Orton's outside help to win both matches have made him look ever-so slightly incapable to get the job done himself against Shane, but at the same time it could be seen as Orton gaining more power as he is the leader of a dominant stable who can do whatever they want.

They could also be making Orton look weak so that we all assume that Triple H will win at Wrestlemania, then Orton wrestles out of his skin and wins the WWE title. The shock factor of Orton winning the WWE title at Wrestlemania after weeks and weeks of looking the weaker out of the two would be larger than if say Orton beat the shit out of everyone for weeks on end.

 

[Christian Battlez]

I don't realy think it kills his momentum and here's why.The reason they had to make Shane look strong is because Orton punter his father in nthe head.So Shane is kinda running off adrenaline.I agree with you 100% he shouldn't be able to hold off all 3 members of legacy noone should. But if Shane doesn't look like a threat at all then it does Orton nothing when he does beat him. Orton won at No Way Out in a sick match. Then he last night he punts Shane and RKO's Steph. Clearly Orton is the dominant man in this feud and these fights with Shane have only elevated Orton's momentum.

 

[PlayTheGame]

I dont think it made Orton look weak... I think it just made Shane look horrendous- I think, even at this point, VKM would do a better job in the ring, and thats saying something, and its quite sad.

Anyway, back on topic, I think, with this sort of feud, your not supposed to really look at how weak or strong Orton is at this point, cuz, quite obviously, he was almost getting beat by Shane. Instead, we're supposed to be just enjoying how much its elevating Orton's character's storyline with the McMahons, and how its going to set up an ANGRY and INFURIATED HHH against him. And, to be quite honest, it is sort of the typical heel thing where he needs help from his friends in order to defeat the faces.. altho I agree with you in the sense that I feel Orton shouldnt/doesnt need help.

 

[thewrestlinghero]

This angle did not kill orton momentum at all it may have slightly when shane shot those fake ass punches to orton but with orton selling all the punches and stuff very well almost saved his momentum alittle bit and i would not say this was the worst angle in the past couple of years its pretty interesting now that triple h is being added to this mix

 

[OIL]

The fued has opened up a different level in Orton's character. It hasn't been shown up until him kicking Vince in the head, and that's remorse. It shows that he knows the effects of his actions, where before he didn't give a fuck. Now that opens up different elements right there. His character just got a whole lot more interesting, because that remorse could kick in at any time and it could stop what would be an attack on someone. It leaves the fans pondering what is going to happen next with him. The fued with Shane only elevated this.

 

[Scott Free]

This past month we've witnissed what is in my opinion, one of the worst feuds/angles that we've seen in a couple of years in the WWE. Not the part with Orton kicking Vince, or the awesome promos, but the actual confrontations between Orton and Shane from the day after the Royal Rumble, up until the Feb. 16th edition of RAW.

Quick timeline for better analysis:

1) Shane spears Orton and throws the weakest punches I've ever seen in pro wrestling, all the while not being able to be held down by both Rhodes and Dibiase

2) Orton fights the Undertaker and is about to get owned until Rhodes/Dibiase interfere. Then of all people to save the Undertaker, Shane McMahon comes in for the save???????? What the fuck??????? Are you kidding me?

3) Orton and Shane have a street fight that Orton would've lost if Priceless didn't interfere. Orton was barely able to contain pitiful out of shape Shane.

4) Feb 16 RAW they have an unsanctioned match and Shane gets the best of Orton and only takes Shane out after Rhodes and Dibiase interfere.

Now before you reply with "He's a heel he's supposed to do this or do that", I say fuck that. He is the new age bad ass Randy Orton, why the hell is he even getting competition from Lame McMahon? One punch or one chair shot, or one strong slam should finish him OFF! How am I now supposed to believe that Orton stands a chance AT ALL against HHH or whoever at WM?

Why didn't they just have Orton demolish Shane? Why did they have to make Shane look strong? In my opinion, Shane STILL looks weak, because he can't sell any offense. He hits Orton with a fucking Dasani water bottle on RAW in the stands, did anyone see that? Orton had no choice but to sell it.

What a debacle. Orton did a great job at selling everything, but Shane really drove this storyline into the shit hole. Orton needs a huge mean streak WITHOUT Rhodes/Dibiase to regain some character credibility in my book. What do you all think?

They really screwed him over in a big way.
He barely survived a brawl with a pudgy, out of shape office guy, and now,
they expect people to pay to see him wrestle Trips ???
What's the point ?
They may as well make it a handicap match with all of Legacy against
HHH and you still damn well know who is going to win.
But that's the WWE for you, anything can happen....except something good.

 

[dsfedor]

i disagree with the fued making Orton look weak.

the ulitmate goal of this storyline was Orton picking off the McMahons one by one until it led to HHH.

plus Shane is always entertaining as hell in big matches because he takes sick bumps. we all know he's not a "trained wrestler" yet he goes out and hangs with the pros. he makes you care, and always loses, putting over the "real" wrestlers in the end, making them better in the process.

and these are no-holds-barred street fights, which allows Shane the chance to keep up. everyone knows in a one-on-one match, Orton would destroy him. but Shane can deliver sick chair shots and bust open Orton with a wicked blast from a monitor in a street fight and be able to damage Orton enough to almost win.

plus i think alot of the punches Shane threw last night looked very stiff. he did great in my opinion.

 

[StInGeR-HBK]

I don't believe it hurt his character at all. Yeah, Shane O'Mack can't beat Orton on any given day but when you look at the realistic part of it, adrenaline can make you do some crazy stuff. I think it was a good transitional feud to lead into a feud with Trips. If you wanna say that just because Shane can't beat Orton and Orton made it look as if he could, that makes Orton look weak? Nonsense. You have situations like this all the time in wrestling. Example, chair shots in a regular match, knocked out for the count. Chair shots in a TLC match, everyone kicks out. Makes no sense but it happens. Anywayz, Orton is still a bad ass in my book and will hopefully beat Trips at Wrestlemania 25!!!

 

[tyler.durden]

orton's feud with shane is forgettable, since it was just a stepping stone to trips. so i really don't see that much of importance with that feud to complain about those sissy punches by shane. besides, if you're looking for a real fight, you're not gonna get it from anyone in the wwe, not just shane.

 

[mcbrainlegend]

It made Orton look weak as multiple times (NWO and RAW) it has looked like Orton (young, ripped wrestler who just won the Rumble) cannot beat Shane (nearing 40, out of shape) without help from the legacy!!

 

[CCS]

No, If anything it helped him gain momentum. Orton facing off against the McMahon's have made some fans rally behind him, and some mark fans hate him. If Orton didnt feud with Shane over the last month who would have he faced? Kane? CM Punk? Kofi Kingston? All of those feuds would be pointless and stupid. Orton fighting the McMahon's means something, only top level wrestlers have on air feuds with the McMahon's. This whole feud is basically just giving Orton even more momentum.

 

[silrock316]

Did it hurt Orton's momentum? I don't think so. Do I think WWE made the feud a bit unrealistic? Yes. As another user stated, Orton just won the Royal Rumble, if they were going to let Shane run off of adrenaline from the boot to his Dad they should have let him handle is own against Orton with weapons and what not but NOT fight off the entire legacy, that to me is where it made Orton and company come off weak.

As for the momentum/storyline and such, I think it was well played, it has been long known that HHH and Steph were an item and I think it was well played that they are pushing the "realness" of this feud by making it seem as though it is not even a storyline because Stephanie's real life husband and Shanes real life brother in law HHH are coming to the families add.

That alone puts this feud and match one of the more watchables for me.

 

[LEGEND KILLER]

They really screwed him over in a big way.
He barely survived a brawl with a pudgy, out of shape office guy, and now,
they expect people to pay to see him wrestle Trips ???
What's the point ?
They may as well make it a handicap match with all of Legacy against
HHH and you still damn well know who is going to win.
But that's the WWE for you, anything can happen....except something good.


WTF.....ok i agree Orton getting hit in the head with Dasani or brita shit man that was so stupid...the idiot even opened the bottle so it would spray everywhere....that was just about has dumn ass as the "oh my god he just hit him in the head with a cookie sheet" when they had the hardcore title matches.....anyways Orton needed this "feud if you will to build up a storyline with HHH....this is genous and the best part is what next? you cant predict, with HHH win and gain the Mcmahon respect and be the knight in shinning armour? With Orton win and finally etch in stone his legacy?....with The legacy interfere?...will Vince return?....will Steph or Vince turn on HHH?...anything can happen and for once in a long time this is a longer drawn out storyline that hopefully takes us well past wrestlemania.....

 

[NSL]

The feud itself did little for me as far as whether or not I hate or like him more.

However, the fallout from that feud will be legendary. Triple H v. Orton at Wrestlemania wil be an amazing match, especially with the crowd firmly behind Hunter. The feud would have been great anyway, but now it's personal, and on a very human level, that we can all relate to.

If Orton wins, he'll be the top heel in the company, and will look like the ultimate bad guy that everyone wants to see brought down to size. If Triple H wins, it'll take away any doubters he has, and still make people hate Orton even more. The only way this feud could go wrong, is if they let the 'Mania matchup end any other way then a pinfall or count out.

 

[Phoenix]

Something gets me thinking, what if this is to really set up Orton as a face so Triple H can be the heel he wants to be once again? A heel shouldn't show remorse and as stated earlier in this thread, it's being shown by Orton, could this be a face turn on the cards? Quite possibly!

One other thing, I see alot of people don't like how Orton has been seen because of the Legacy's support during this fued, reminds you of someone? TRIPLE H! He had DX and Evolution to do his dirty work and if they hadn't played some role in his matches, he would probably have only half the world title reigns he has! Remember Orton's title defense against Triple H? He was beaten down by Evolution to lose. Also, remember when Triple H faced Shane in late 1999, he had DX help him there too in the match.

The pupil has been taught well by the master...that or creative thought it would be original to make Orton a Triple H-wannabe!

 

[Starchild]

The entire point of this McMahon/Orton storyline was not to focus on the Orton vs Shane match, that was just a filler. The point was to have an explanation for Triple H to involve himself and to decide which champion he'd face since Cena lost the title at NWO.
I think this angle has done wonders it two regards:
1. It developed Orton's character even more, which has been going on for a year or a year and a half now. Adding dynamics to the character makes it more interesting to see what he'll do next as it gets unpredictable. In doing so, heat was added to Orton..he was getting alot of cheers considering he's a heel, and it was because he is so damn good now. Doing this made the fans hate him more.
2. This stems from the other point..Triple H is made into more of a face. Not everyone likes him as a face, but now they all rally behind him because Orton crossed a line when he attacked Trips' wife. Generally people want to see him lose the title, but in this case it's not about that..they just want to see him get revenge on Orton.

I think this is going to make for a great storyline between Orton and Triple H going into Mania. As I've stated before, the best storylines are the ones that really seem personal and the actual people behind the characters are brought out. This feud has been done before, but not in this way. It may now end up being comparable to the Jericho/Michaels feud from last year which was great. I think if they continue in this way and really put forth the personal issues that their problem is rooted in, this could be epic. The match at Mania definitely needs to be a bloodbath..maybe a no DQ or something to make it more interesting.

 

[ZAPX4V1]

However, the fallout from that feud will be legendary. Triple H v. Orton at Wrestlemania wil be an amazing match, especially with the crowd firmly behind Hunter. The feud would have been great anyway, but now it's personal, and on a very human level, that we can all relate to.

If Orton wins, he'll be the top heel in the company, and will look like the ultimate bad guy that everyone wants to see brought down to size. If Triple H wins, it'll take away any doubters he has, and still make people hate Orton even more. The only way this feud could go wrong, is if they let the 'Mania matchup end any other way then a pinfall or count out.

The crowd isn't firmly behind Triple H though. Orton got several strong face pops last night, and he will continue to get cheered unless they can find another face for him to attack or something. RKOing Steph just made him get an even better face pop, so Orton is basically a face now, just with a heel group which makes him a tweener.

If Triple H wins, then the Legacy angle is basically useless. HHH has to lose so that Orton can have a long title reign (6 months to a year at least) and continue the Legacy storyline

 

[Profit]

Simply put, it hurt his momentum.

First of all when Shane made his first appearance to avenge his dad, he took out the entire Legacy group. Shane McMahon, a non wrestler who is what like 40 something years old? Who has little-to-no wrestling experience, besides hitting the crazy "kill himself" moves against his opponents, yet his right hand jab which hit only the air exiting Orton's nose is strong enough to keep a main eventer down?

To there credit, WWE did a good job explaining that one away, with Orton stating he ordered Legacy not to attack Shane because he didn't want to get in any more trouble by assaulting another McMahon. Fine, i'll let this one slide because of that.

Then we have the No Way Out PPV, where I expected Shane to obviously mount some offense and not get his ass kicked the entire time, but for him to keep pace with Orton and almost beat him? Thats just friggin ludicrous. Having Orton win that match by just doing his RKO and pinning Shane, when what he set out to do was destroy him, made little sense to me. It wasn't supposed to be a match, it was supposed to be the two men trying to destroy each other, yet Orton went for pinfalls early and often for a victory. The match itself was great, i'll give it that, but Orton looked weak and the fact that he almost lost to Shane McMahon is just pathetically stupid.

And finally, we have what transpired on RAW. Orton dominated for a while, but by doing what? Using weapons? No. Hitting some power moves? No. He just hit some right hands and kicks, and used the table and steel steps. Thats all. And Shane, what did he do? He knocked Randy Orton out with the bell toward the end of the match, and at the beginning HIS punches did more damage then Randy's. Let me say that again, Shane McMahons punches had Randy Orton reeling more then Orton's on Shane. That right there is enough to tell you how weak they made Orton look. Shane had that match won, if it wasn't for Legacy coming out for the save. I was literally yelling at my tv in shock that they were making Shane look so strong, the guy's storyline has him in the hospital the night before drifting in and out of conciousness, yet he can take out the top guy in the WWE and the man who will main event wrestlemania.

The whole thing made me sick, until he punted Shane, and might I add that Shane didn't sell that punt well at all.

So yea, thats my opinion on this whole thing.

The crowd isn't firmly behind Triple H though. Orton got several strong face pops last night, and he will continue to get cheered unless they can find another face for him to attack or something. RKOing Steph just made him get an even better face pop, so Orton is basically a face now, just with a heel group which makes him a tweener.

I disagree with that, Orton does receive pops that much is undeniable, but as someone mentioned in a different thread, HHH's situation will relate to a lot of people. He's protecting the woman he loves from a psychopath, did you hear the massive pop he got when he came running out on RAW? There is no questin in my mind that fans will stand behind HHH on this one, because although there is no love for Stephanie, fans can relate to and understand the whole "protecting my lover" angle and will act accordingly by boo'ing anything Orton does.

Will he receive pops still? Sure. But saying he's on his way to becoming a face is a little far fetched, don't you think?

 

[silrock316]

Simply put, it hurt his momentum.

First of all when Shane made his first appearance to avenge his dad, he took out the entire Legacy group. Shane McMahon, a non wrestler who is what like 40 something years old? Who has little-to-no wrestling experience, besides hitting the crazy "kill himself" moves against his opponents, yet his right hand jab which hit only the air exiting Orton's nose is strong enough to keep a main eventer down?

To there credit, WWE did a good job explaining that one away, with Orton stating he ordered Legacy not to attack Shane because he didn't want to get in any more trouble by assaulting another McMahon. Fine, i'll let this one slide because of that.

Then we have the No Way Out PPV, where I expected Shane to obviously mount some offense and not get his ass kicked the entire time, but for him to keep pace with Orton and almost beat him? Thats just friggin ludicrous. Having Orton win that match by just doing his RKO and pinning Shane, when what he set out to do was destroy him, made little sense to me. It wasn't supposed to be a match, it was supposed to be the two men trying to destroy each other, yet Orton went for pinfalls early and often for a victory. The match itself was great, i'll give it that, but Orton looked weak and the fact that he almost lost to Shane McMahon is just pathetically stupid.

And finally, we have what transpired on RAW. Orton dominated for a while, but by doing what? Using weapons? No. Hitting some power moves? No. He just hit some right hands and kicks, and used the table and steel steps. Thats all. And Shane, what did he do? He knocked Randy Orton out with the bell toward the end of the match, and at the beginning HIS punches did more damage then Randy's. Let me say that again, Shane McMahons punches had Randy Orton reeling more then Orton's on Shane. That right there is enough to tell you how weak they made Orton look. Shane had that match won, if it wasn't for Legacy coming out for the save. I was literally yelling at my tv in shock that they were making Shane look so strong, the guy's storyline has him in the hospital the night before drifting in and out of conciousness, yet he can take out the top guy in the WWE and the man who will main event wrestlemania.

The whole thing made me sick, until he punted Shane, and might I add that Shane didn't sell that punt well at all.

So yea, thats my opinion on this whole thing.



I disagree with that, Orton does receive pops that much is undeniable, but as someone mentioned in a different thread, HHH's situation will relate to a lot of people. He's protecting the woman he loves from a psychopath, did you hear the massive pop he got when he came running out on RAW? There is no questin in my mind that fans will stand behind HHH on this one, because although there is no love for Stephanie, fans can relate to and understand the whole "protecting my lover" angle and will act accordingly by boo'ing anything Orton does.

Will he receive pops still? Sure. But saying he's on his way to becoming a face is a little far fetched, don't you think?

Though I agreed with some of what you stated above, I too can NOT say that the crowd will be firmly behind HHH. If we know anything about wrestling fan bases is the fact we as fans get sick of seeing the same wrestlers being champion or just flat out being pushed. Cases are HHH, Cena and Edge, sure they all have their fair share of followers but there is LOADS of people out there that were like "Geez, Edge and HHH win the titles... AGAIN!!" and get annoyed by it. A lot of fans boo'd the fact HHH pinned Taker, albeit Taker is Taker and Orton is not quite on that level yet, but WM crowds tend to be different crowds, face Rock vs. heel Hogan, Hogan cheered Rock boo'd. WM13 face Bret Hart vs. heel Austin, they cheered Austin as much if not more than Hart. I am pretty sure a crowd at WM boo'd Rock against Lesnar or Goldberg, can't remember which one of the latters.

So my point is the fact that Orton does have the most unpredictable and exciting character going right now it may just get him to be the unexpected fan favorite come Mania night.

 

[.còrVétt3!`]

I don't think the feud put any halt to Orton's momentum since the Vince incident, I think it's given his character a bigger shunt in a generally good direction. He's in the spotlight of Raw at the moment, but I see where people are coming from. Pitting Shane against Orton numerous times wasn't eye-catching for me, since Shane is massively worn out. Plus I think they tried to push Shane as a face too much, even though that was "right" for the situation... Shane can't just walk in and receive groundbreaking audience appreciation and support. So I think they wasted valuable time with Orton/Shane at No Way Out.

I do believe that they haven't done a great job with Priceless, or Legacy, whichever you refer to them as with Orton. They switched from the Manu/Snuka angle way too quickly, which could have led somewhere, however given the two plots to choose (Orton vs Manu/Snuka or Orton vs McMahons/HHH) I would have picked the latter.

I think they have good direction going though. Just hope Shane stays out now.

(BTW: Hello!)

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

Let's take a trip down memory lane, shall we???

1999 Royal Rumble: Vince eliminates Stone Cold from the Rumble. Stone Cold doesn't even EARN his spot at Wrestlemania, it is granted only because Vince forfeits his number one contendership...yielding HBK to grant Austin the match at Mania. Austin THEN decides to put up the spot in a match against Vince at.....

Sure, Austin beats the crap out of McMahon for...well, the entirety of the match. But then Paul Wight comes from under the ring and it looks like it's all and well for Vinnie. But Austin escapes with the match after Wight launches SCSA through the cage...giving Austin the title match against the eventual champion The Rock at Mania XV.



Sooooo. Stone Cold LOSES to Vince McMahon in the Rumble. Stone Cold can't beat McMahon cleanly in the steel cage. What kind of momentum does Austin have going into Mania? Did you answer....A WHOLE FREAKING LOT???

If you did, then you are correct. They built up Austin like a freaking bomb up until Mania, really showcasing the Austin vs. the whole corporation deal. What makes you think that they won't do the same with Orton??? Wrestlmania isn't....TOMORROW. Holy smokes. This is just another case of the IWC jumping too quickly to conclusions and not letting storylines fully pan out.

Before you conclude that Orton is going to be the weakest Mania main-eventer in history...maybe you should watch the subsequent Raw episodes leading up to Wrestlemania to see what they are going to do with him.

 

[My$terio_Fan]

No. If anything it just elevated Orton's ruthless character. While they could have portrayed him stronger and ruthless so he didn't appear weak, but this won't harm Orton one big.

His feud with Shane was a nice little hold over til HHH got involved and it served it's purpose. Orton is a savage who has no consiensous and will do whatever he want's and I think that came through in this feud. While he may not have dominated Shane, he still got the last blow and came out on top. And if it was just some random guy or celebrity that he feuded with then maybe Orton could have been harmed, but this is Shane McMahon and while he isnt a trained wrestler he has held his own against guys like Big Show and Angle and is a McMahon.

This feud just served it's purpose as a launching pad to a bigger and better feud while still making Orton come off as a ruthless pyscho rather than the perfect wrestler.

 

[ZAPX4V1]

I disagree with that, Orton does receive pops that much is undeniable, but as someone mentioned in a different thread, HHH's situation will relate to a lot of people. He's protecting the woman he loves from a psychopath, did you hear the massive pop he got when he came running out on RAW? There is no questin in my mind that fans will stand behind HHH on this one, because although there is no love for Stephanie, fans can relate to and understand the whole "protecting my lover" angle and will act accordingly by boo'ing anything Orton does.

Will he receive pops still? Sure. But saying he's on his way to becoming a face is a little far fetched, don't you think?

I didn't say he would be a full fledged face, just that he is going to get cheered just as much as the "face" he is against, HHH. Most people aren't going to automatically cheer HHH just because Orton RKO'd his wife Steph, who is basically on the same heel level as Vickie Guerrero. Fans aren't going to care about the "protecting my lover" angle because most fans know that wrestling is NOT REAL. HHH's bad acting at the end of Raw didn't help things out either for him.

 

[Profit]

I didn't say he would be a full fledged face, just that he is going to get cheered just as much as the "face" he is against, HHH. Most people aren't going to automatically cheer HHH just because Orton RKO'd his wife Steph, who is basically on the same heel level as Vickie Guerrero. Fans aren't going to care about the "protecting my lover" angle because most fans know that wrestling is NOT REAL. HHH's bad acting at the end of Raw didn't help things out either for him.

I'm sorry, but you my friend are wrong.

I would bet you my right hand that HHH will receive more cheers from the crowd then Orton. Theres no doubt Orton will be receiving his usual pops from the crowd, but those pops arn't overwhelming.. nowhere near that.

We've heard "RKO" chants when he was attacking the McMahons, but anyone receives that kinda thing when they attack a McMahon. Again, did you hear the pop HHH got from that crowd when he came running down to the ring? You gotta be insane to tell me that Orton's few pops can come anywhere close to matching something like that.