Crowd Reaction

[Alastor]

I'm not talking a return to the attitude era. I'm talking about putting out compelling episodic television. That was the Attitude Era's greatest feature, not the wrestling, not the gore, not even the tits, it was the fact that when the show ended, you could not wait for the next one. Nothing is compelling, there is very little character progression. I know I was in the target demo during the era and am still in the 18-35 demo. So are the people near my age.

2013 sensibilities... You mean the bowing down to every PC demand in the world? Where the biggest heels are called "bullies" like anyone talks like that who is over the age of 12. Heels can't do anything even close to controversial to get heat because you might make a portion of the audience need to change their collective tampons on the spot. Walking Dead doesn't seem to care about the PC bullcrap and their ratings are doing pretty well. South Park and Family Guy both push the limits and get ratings. To act like a television program needs to bow down to the PC idiots is ridiculous.

UFC is not competition. WWE is not a PPV company where they derive nearly all of their profits for the year from buys. UFC is. WWE dominates them on television revenue, dominates them on profits from gates, merchandise sales. The ppv buyrates for WWE have dropped at the same rate as the quality of the product. If they improved the quality, the buyrates would go back up... No one wants to spend their hard earned money to watch the "same old sh*t"... Obviously, judging by the crowd last night, I'm not exactly alone in my opinion.

The crowd was fun. Get over trying to go back to the attitude era programming. FFS it is almost 2 decades ago. Your age here states 29, during 1997-2001 you were 13-17, not the 18-35 demo you wish they were targeting. Attitude era was aimed at kids that wanted to be treated as an adult but don't have the maturity to handle the responsibilities. The current product simply dropped the pretence that they were trying to make kids feel like adults.

Maybe in an era of sequels/prequels/remakes in the entertainment industry fans are spoilt into wanting to have a piece of a classic to call their own. No matter how shitty or unneeded it really is.

Wrestling is unique in that is BOTH an episodic TV and an event to sell gates. Tv shows can bomb and fans bitch about it after the fact. At events, if they bomb, the feedback is immediate in the crowd reaction. At the end of the day, they want fans to go home happy they spent their money to attend, TV shows like Walking Dead or Family Guy don't need to concern themselves with that.

And if you think kids are do no have purchasing power, you obviously have not taken classes on economics or ethics. McDonalds made their business with kids. Toy companies get sued for advertisements preying on kids. As pointed out earlier, a kid consumer usually mean more than one purchase. Parents have to accompany the kids to events. If the family have more than one child, parents will feel pressured to buy more than one product to appear 'fair' in front of their kids if only one of them is demanding to buy something. Call it weak parenting, but parents that have to combat consumerism aimed at kids 24/7 365 will succumb to it once in a while.

 

[shattered dreams]

Last nights crowd was good and bad but more bad. That level of excitement is pointless. They were basically mocking the program or trying to create their own stars. What happened with Austin was organic, it wasn't a bunch of smarks trying to make a face superstar out of blue that their going to get sick of and stop supporting two months later. These are the same idiots that boo at a Make-A-Wish video.

These are adults who enjoy a product made for kids and are trying to steal the product from the kids. Congrats on your Randy Savage chant. Such wrestling knowledge is so impressive.

I disagree completely. They bought a ticket and were clearly having fun. I can't imagine there is another point to a wrestling show other than that. This "there is a right way to enjoy the show" stuff is nonsense. The crowd hasn't stopped supporting Daniel Bryan after what happened last year. Why should they sit idly by and watch kids steal something they love? The crowd gave genuine feedback and had a great time. The crowd is part of the show, any good entertainer knows that. Wrestling isn't school and I for one hope it stays that way. It isn't organic to just cheer whoever they tell you to either. The best reactions are earned, no matter where they come from. To suggest the reaction for Ziggler has nothing to do with all the work he has put in is ridiculous just because someone's kids don't get it.

 

[Aquaman6686]

Heck, even Cena acknowledged the crowd after the cameras turned off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcMJi1JUczE

Wish I had been there. Awesome RAW and looks like a ton of fun. Got a kick from that video.

I was there, it was absolutely insane. I've been to over a dozen shows, all but one of which was in NJ, and the crowd is always white hot, but nothing compares to this week's RAW. Seeing Ziggler win the title was incredible. I'm very disappointed by the love for Fandango though, usually my fellow Jersey fans are too smart to jump on every bandwagon Vince wants them to.

 

[Crackula]

The crowd has as much pull as the performers. They are nothing without the fans booing or cheering , or just yelling " Randy Savage"! can make or break a show. Remember crowd input makes much more of an effect on the product. See Ziggler.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

First of all, nobody knows a single thing about how "hot" Cena is. All they can do is make best guesses about how well his T-Shirts sell because the WWE doesn't break any of that information down by superstar for public dissemination. So saying that Cena outsells Punk and Punk outsells Undertaker or vice versa is purely speculation.

The facts that we DO know are that year over year, televised events are up a very measly 4% for the WWE, and to a large degree that's attributable to folks like Lesnar and Rock (check the PPV buys). Product sales, overall, are down. Keyword: Overall.

So judging fan reaction to any individual wrestler is as good as anything until WWE decides to actually produce something more concrete to go on.

We know that Vince likes money. Also, people make signs. "Lets go Cena" or "Cena sucks" doesn't matter. He gets the most noise and the most signs.

My point is that most people on here need to get over this idea that they are smart and they are telling Vince that they don't like Cena. You make a lot of noise and create a really awesome experience and environment outside the typical "boo" and "yay". If you REALLY want Cena to change, stop talking about him, stop making shirts, stop making signs, stop making noise, change the channel when he's on.

Crowd noise is all they care about. If you are there, you bought a ticket, if you are making noise, you care. If you care, you'll watch. That's all it is. That's why loud crowds are amazing.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

I was there, it was absolutely insane. I've been to over a dozen shows, all but one of which was in NJ, and the crowd is always white hot, but nothing compares to this week's RAW. Seeing Ziggler win the title was incredible. I'm very disappointed by the love for Fandango though, usually my fellow Jersey fans are too smart to jump on every bandwagon Vince wants them to.

"Too smart to jump on the bandwagon" get over yourself. Smarks are the easiest to work. Tweet a few stories from the back about you being held back. Get fined for doing useless flippity shit, boom, you're over.

Fandango is, get this, a guy who performs a unique character really well and incorporates it into his match. Your arrogance and hatred of Vince (despite both spending money on his product and talking about it here) comes across as really immature. Vince likes money. So Vince likes fans. Vince pushes what will generate the most interest. A unique character like fandango does that.

 

[d_henderson1810]

All the chanting on "Raw" makes me wonder where all these people were at "Wrestlemania" the previous night. If the crowd had been as lively, it would have made for a better 'Mania.

Also, the commentators seemed to get swept up in it, and put in more effort on "Raw" than at "Wrestlemania".

There is good hyped crowd and bad hyped crowd. The "Raw" one was mostly bad, because people were cheering random things just because they could. If they are so bored with the product, than don't waste your money going then.

A good "hyped" crowd was, for example, at MITB 2011. The Chicago crowd (who are usually good) were buzzing all night at everything. They cheered MITB matches, Orton v Christian and the Cena v Punk match (the night Punk won the title and "left"). The crowd were even reacting to the Divas Match. A good crowd makes any good show better.

What Raw's crowd did, in contrast, was take away from the product and make themselves the stars for the night. You people say you pay your hard-earned to see that, but, as C.M. Punk once said "You pay to see me. I don't pay to see you!". You have the right to decide if you spend your money or not, but don't spend it and then shit on it all night. What you do is, next time WWE is in town, stay home instead. The crowd buried the superstars by making it about themselves. It's the same garbage that fans carried on with at the HoF. I wonder if some of the crowd tonight went to the HoF and booed Trish Stratus's husband, who did nothing other than marry a beautiful woman.

Maybe if NY and NJ crowds are so disrespectful, maybe WWE should skip going there next time, and focus only on towns who give positive reaction. Maybe then the fans will realise what they have lost.

 

[DannyDirtz]

Not to say that the crowd wasn't awesome, but every week it would get a little old and we would start to get tired of it as well

Like the way the fans are tired of the same old bs every single week , year in year out?

The crowd had had enough.

How many more times are we going to see Cena come out spewing pg nonsense to a crowd that the majority dont want to see?

How many more times are we going to hear "The Rock wont be here tonight"

How many more times are we going to see the same restricted superstars in a pi$$poor rotation? Cena beats Rock.....then Mark Henry comes out? Why? Who the hell cares about Mark Henry after Cena just went up against The Rock?

Theres no superstars in the WWE that can match up to Rock , Taker , Brock or HHH because the creative team and PG restrictions have KILLED the wwe.

RAW would have been horrible without the crowd , they showed the world that the fans HAVE HAD ENOUGH and i hope the same things happens at EVERY SINGLE live event until change happens.

 

[Sid Schmid]

I saw the crowd's reaction as a positive thing. The only time they seemed pissed off was with the Sheamus/Orton match. With regards to Cena, they enjoyed poking fun and chanting at him more that hating on him in my opinion. The crowd knew Cena would react and they laughed at his Fandango impression.
I know it was a one-off and we'll go back to the generic crowds we get every other week but I'd love it if the crowds were like that at every Raw. The writers and Vince will be able to judge what storylines people are invested in a hell of a lot better than they currently do.

 

[TheEgo74]

Hi first time poster and a wrestling fan from the UK.

I felt the crowd on Raw had a very British feel to it (google Raw in Birmingham Uk) and see the noise generated there in particular for Wade Barrett. It's my part of town and miles from where Wade is from, but he admitted himself that this was the best crowd he had ever witnessed.

Anyway back to the point, loved the atmosphere and for me made Raw a better show. Could do with more spontaneity. Again google uk football (soccer) fans and see how the crowd influence the team.

Keep it going I say. Oh and love the forum by the way, long time reader.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

I disagree completely.

Of course you do, you're the forum contrarian.

They bought a ticket and were clearly having fun. I can't imagine there is another point to a wrestling show other than that. This "there is a right way to enjoy the show" stuff is nonsense.

But there is a way to sabotage the product. Here are some thoughts:

Wrestling Perspective
Take ECW. There are plenty of reasons why it ultimately failed but one was certainly the fan experience. That experience like the one last night was unsustainable. You watched those shows and they constantly showed fan involvment from bringing street signs, throwing chairs and chanting brutally honest comments. A company can bring people in the door with that but ultimately it can't last. Humans will want more of that stuff or they easily get bored with it and disappear, which is why you need some ability to storytell. A crowd like last night will never allow the WWE to tell their own story.

Longevity
Like Raw, people still line up to see the The Price is Right live. Fans go and encouraged to interact with the show. It's been the same shit for a billion years but people still line up. More people may start watching if the audience starts booing their least favorite model, or chanting boring at Plinko, or chanting Bob Barker during the Showcase Showdown. But ultimately that show is not going to last if the fans take over. The fans are not that creative, they are not the one's that have carried that show for so long. Raw is similar, they may blow smoke up the Universe's asses with the "none of this would be possible without you" bullshit but ultimate it WWE that brings us in with their control. If they can't do that people should flee the product like you are always claiming to do.

Storytelling
I think you know that I have a five year old. She wants me or my wife to tell her a story every night before bed. I am a terrible story teller. The other night I scored some points with her by just singing the Gilligan's Island theme to her and adding some My Little Pony (shoutout Bronies, Princess Celestia in the GSB hizzouse) characters that she loves. But ultimately I am a shit storyteller. I'm so bad my daughter interrupts the stories constantly with different character and different plotlines but in the end she asks that my wife tells her a story more often than not. Why? Because my stories suck and she knows a better place to get them. Maybe if she didn't interrupt I would get better but in the end she is smart enough to know not to waste her time with my stories.

Why can't a group of adults figure this out?

The crowd hasn't stopped supporting Daniel Bryan after what happened last year. Why should they sit idly by and watch kids steal something they love?

Because that's life. Much like the smarks desire for John Cena to pass the torch to anyone else, pro wrestling is ultimately a kid's show with some adult themes. It's a parody of real sport. Knowing who's going to win and who is more talented in the ring isn't a great accomplishment. If someone shit on your heroes as a child you would have said that person was an asshole. A lot of fans today are being assholes because they can't control themselves. I'm not saying they don't have the right, I am saying they are having a big laugh at the expense of the product they paid money to see and claim to love.

The crowd gave genuine feedback and had a great time. The crowd is part of the show, any good entertainer knows that. Wrestling isn't school and I for one hope it stays that way. It isn't organic to just cheer whoever they tell you to either.

Of course the crowd is part of the show and they should be active if they enjoy the product. But not that much no matter what BS the company tries to tell us.

Do you really think Ziggler's reaction was genuine? Do you really think Dolph Ziggler will be a successful champ? Do you really think the same people that popped so huge for him are really going to support him in the long run? Have you met The Miz?

The best reactions are earned, no matter where they come from. To suggest the reaction for Ziggler has nothing to do with all the work he has put in is ridiculous just because someone's kids don't get it.

I swear your sweet talk about Ziggler is just a way to sabotage WWE and move more of their audience to TNA. Pretty smooth.

 

[JoeyJoeJoe]

Not sure why people think Ziggler is not going to be able to sustain interest as a Champ. He regularly gets good heat, and he puts solid, entertaining matches. I think people are trying to read too much into the situation with Ziggler seemingly being "jobbed" the past few months. The point is not whether Ziggler will be successful, the point is whether the story buildup for him has been to everyone's liking.

Go back 2 years ago, and CM Punk was being "jobbed" in feud after feud to Randy Orton, John Cena and The Big Show. Then one day, the WWE decided to let Punk cut a shoot promo and put the strap on him. All of a sudden, Punk was being "jobbed" anymore.

I think Ziggler trends more to CM Punk than say, Jack Swagger.

 

[JoeFromTomsRiver]

So the WWE has called it the best crowd in the history of RAW. See the link below. Not one wrestler or anyone associated with the company has made a complaint. In fact, its been quite the opposite.

The only complaints come from holier-than-thou keyboard philosophers who take wrestling way too damn seriously.

http://www.wwe.com/shows/raw/2013-04-08/izod-center-fan-chants-26106482/page-2

 

[Brahma_Bull9]

I think the whole disrespectful bit is taking it a bit too far

granted their were some random ass chants at times "JBL" "Randy Savage" etc kinda see your point with taking away from the show

but are you telling me it's disrespectful to chant "Boring" or "thank you Big Show" if the fans found the Orton-Sheamus match boring? Give me a break, even I myself was pretty bored with that match, so the fans expressed their distaste for it. Big deal

It's not like they're throwing garbage in the ring, or chanting "F*ck you ____"

and props to Cena for getting "same old shit" added to last weeks BORING chant (second week in a row) pretty impressive for the face of the company to get a BORING chant 2 straight RAWS (mild sarcasm, but again kinda reflects the distaste for Cena if he can get a noticeably loud BORING chant)

"What last night's crowd said to Vince was that they didn't miss the Rock, and that the fans are heavily invested in the full-time younger talent like Dolph, Barrett, Miz and Hell No."

hopefully that investment can be maintained, because if it doesn't it won't matter in a couple months.

**that's what I think is kind of getting lost in all this, that the crowd was popping big for some talent be it Barrett, and super loud for others .. Dolph. Hopefully that enthusiasm can keep up in the coming weeks

because I want to see some fresh superstars on the scene and main event particularly Dolph

Dolph for some reason I dont know why always gets a lot of love up north. Barrett, I think it was because of the amount of Brits in the crowd. Their was a flag, I saw soccer jerseys all over the place.... and some of the chants definitely sounded more European than American.

I was surprised about Miz getting over so well.... but to say they didnt care about the Rock is a complete overstatement, plenty of boos at the beginning because of that.

I liked the crowd though, how ever crowd should be. Wrestling fans are absolutely ridiculous and stupid if they are going to complain about a crowd being too involved, go watch fucking golf.

Talk about homogenized

 

[javierjiminy]

I loved the crowd's reaction on raw the other day. With that being said, we need majority of the crowd to have a heel turn. These crowds are the best, hence why raw was good. More heel crowds would be incredible.

 

[mlp420]

I honestly believe stuff like what happened last Monday could be the downfall of wrestling if it catches on. Too many cooks in the kitchen. Too many people concerned with trying anoint stars and dictate the direction of the product.

Edit: The problem isn't crowd involvement. The crowds during the late 80s and early 90s were FAR better than last Monday. And the Attitude Era crowds were the best ever. The difference is they were into the stories being told, and not there to protest everything.

 

[shattered dreams]

Of course you do, you're the forum contrarian.

I am, however, what many have never understood is that 95 percent of the time it comes naturally.

Wrestling Perspective
Take ECW. There are plenty of reasons why it ultimately failed but one was certainly the fan experience. That experience like the one last night was unsustainable. You watched those shows and they constantly showed fan involvment from bringing street signs, throwing chairs and chanting brutally honest comments. A company can bring people in the door with that but ultimately it can't last. Humans will want more of that stuff or they easily get bored with it and disappear, which is why you need some ability to storytell. A crowd like last night will never allow the WWE to tell their own story.

I disagree. The crowd added to the story of Ziggler winning, the crowd added to building Fandango. Yes, the crowd took away from the Borton Shitmus match but it was legit boring as fuck and no one cared anyway. You can tell a story with the crowd. The crowd had pretty much nothing to do with why ECW failed and the ability to work with the crowd is a big reason it is still so revered by some. A wrestling company is just as likely to fail trying to tell stories the fans don't want to see. It is harder to work with a crowd like that but the returns are far greater.

Longevity
Like Raw, people still line up to see the The Price is Right live. Fans go and encouraged to interact with the show. It's been the same shit for a billion years but people still line up. More people may start watching if the audience starts booing their least favorite model, or chanting boring at Plinko, or chanting Bob Barker during the Showcase Showdown. But ultimately that show is not going to last if the fans take over. The fans are not that creative, they are not the one's that have carried that show for so long. Raw is similar, they may blow smoke up the Universe's asses with the "none of this would be possible without you" bullshit but ultimate it WWE that brings us in with their control. If they can't do that people should flee the product like you are always claiming to do.

I still don't see how the people that actually watch a show simply not saying they don't like something means it should be better off. You can't help how you feel. At least if the fans say it then it can be taken into consideration. Also, the more a fan says the more emotionally invested they get in the show so I am not so sure this is going to end as badly as you think. You might be able to argue that it makes casuals less likely to be attracted but enthusiasm is contagious. I see no problem with forcing creative to do a better job with their stories by living in the present instead of blindly deferring to the fact that you like wrestling as an excuse that every story is good. By this logic you should never criticize a film from a franchise that you liked the original. This simply isn't how the world works.

Storytelling
I think you know that I have a five year old. She wants me or my wife to tell her a story every night before bed. I am a terrible story teller. The other night I scored some points with her by just singing the Gilligan's Island theme to her and adding some My Little Pony (shoutout Bronies, Princess Celestia in the GSB hizzouse) characters that she loves. But ultimately I am a shit storyteller. I'm so bad my daughter interrupts the stories constantly with different character and different plotlines but in the end she asks that my wife tells her a story more often than not. Why? Because my stories suck and she knows a better place to get them. Maybe if she didn't interrupt I would get better but in the end she is smart enough to know not to waste her time with my stories.

Why can't a group of adults figure this out?

So you are saying wrestling fans behave like children, yet criticizing them for liking something for kids?

Because that's life. Much like the smarks desire for John Cena to pass the torch to anyone else, pro wrestling is ultimately a kid's show with some adult themes. It's a parody of real sport. Knowing who's going to win and who is more talented in the ring isn't a great accomplishment. If someone shit on your heroes as a child you would have said that person was an asshole. A lot of fans today are being assholes because they can't control themselves. I'm not saying they don't have the right, I am saying they are having a big laugh at the expense of the product they paid money to see and claim to love.

A kids show with adult themes isn't a kids show. That is the point. The product isn't just for kids. Clearly Taker-Punk was not a story for kids. I doubt that Lesnar-HHH was for elementary school children. Hell, even that shirt Cena was wearing last night wasn't exactly PG. This still goes back to the ridiculous idea that there is a universal right way to enjoy wrestling. Soap operas aren't for kids. Sports are for adults and kids. To suggest a parody should only be for kids is grossly missing the point. Since you aren't exactly the first person to miss this point, it should hardly be surprising that these manchildren are staking some claim to what is just as rightfully theirs.

Of course the crowd is part of the show and they should be active if they enjoy the product. But not that much no matter what BS the company tries to tell us.

Why would the company not want people to have a ridiculously good time?

Do you really think Ziggler's reaction was genuine?

No idea how loudest pop of the night could not be genuine. Why would they chant for something they don't want?

Do you really think Dolph Ziggler will be a successful champ? Do you really think the same people that popped so huge for him are really going to support him in the long run? Have you met The Miz?

When did Miz ever have crowd support? Ziggler will be as successful as any other smackdown champ. People, myself included, think Ziggler is talented. Get over it. Why do think he would be more successful if that reaction didn't happen? If it is because he is a heel, I reiterate DBD last year to this year.

I swear your sweet talk about Ziggler is just a way to sabotage WWE and move more of their audience to TNA. Pretty smooth.

Well, weren't you already advocating that before I showed up? I advocate both companies putting out enjoyable wrestling. If you want your style then get your people to buy the tickets before these hellions and show up and express your gratitude for that script they whipped together that afternoon by clapping at a moderate volume when "appropriate."

 

[George Steele's Barber]

I am, however, what many have never understood is that 95 percent of the time it comes naturally.

True, the tests came back negative. Glad to hear you are disagreeing without the use of enhancements.

I disagree. The crowd added to the story of Ziggler winning, the crowd added to building Fandango. Yes, the crowd took away from the Borton Shitmus match but it was legit boring as fuck and no one cared anyway. You can tell a story with the crowd.

Ziggler
So a guy basically loses for months, is a complete prick, has a stupid hair cut, whines like a bitch, beats a crippled surprised champion who just participated in a handicapped match and we're supposed to pop now. I'll admit I liked using the ankle to break the arm breaker and it's cool to see a title change but what values do people have when they celebrate such a thing? What has pro wrestling become to the people that forget values and only celebrate cool bumps and work ethic? Are these characteristics along with being a complete prick we are supposed to celebrate as a champion?

Fandango
Again, are we really supposed to celebrate this guy? Is Vince supposed to hear this and start working on other characters who irritate us and are DWTS caricatures? Are we that sick of Jericho?

The fans were being goofs and completely ignoring the story. I guess that's better than hurling rude homosexual slang at the guy but in the end it shows that these fans are smarter than the product and don't think very highly of it. Why continue with it? Why not show your distaste for it for staying quiet, rolling your eyes, not going, or just completely tuning out.

Vince isn't going to listen to anything short of silence.

Cowboy Bob's kid/The Fella
Again if you don't like it stay home. Orton and Sheamus are solid in-ring talents and there are plenty of fans who probably could have enjoyed watching them face each other. The fans were just being stupid.

The crowd had pretty much nothing to do with why ECW failed and the ability to work with the crowd is a big reason it is still so revered by some. A wrestling company is just as likely to fail trying to tell stories the fans don't want to see. It is harder to work with a crowd like that but the returns are far greater.

Not really, there's a certain level of intensity that is unsustainable. You either have to keep pushing or die. Even the AE got stale after a while since they took it about as far as they could. Most fans could only stay so long. I think the rest became Juggalos.

I still don't see how the people that actually watch a show simply not saying they don't like something means it should be better off. You can't help how you feel. At least if the fans say it then it can be taken into consideration. Also, the more a fan says the more emotionally invested they get in the show so I am not so sure this is going to end as badly as you think. You might be able to argue that it makes casuals less likely to be attracted but enthusiasm is contagious. I see no problem with forcing creative to do a better job with their stories by living in the present instead of blindly deferring to the fact that you like wrestling as an excuse that every story is good. By this logic you should never criticize a film from a franchise that you liked the original. This simply isn't how the world works.

I'm saying if you really have a problem with something, speak with your lack of interest. Spend you money on something else. Turn off the TV. Stay in your seat. Turn around (I actually like this one as a protest). Don't try to take over the show.

So you are saying wrestling fans behave like children, yet criticizing them for liking something for kids?

No, I'm saying my five year old daughter is smarter than a lot of wrestling fans. Pre-school really pays off.

A kids show with adult themes isn't a kids show. That is the point. The product isn't just for kids. Clearly Taker-Punk was not a story for kids. I doubt that Lesnar-HHH was for elementary school children. Hell, even that shirt Cena was wearing last night wasn't exactly PG. This still goes back to the ridiculous idea that there is a universal right way to enjoy wrestling. Soap operas aren't for kids. Sports are for adults and kids. To suggest a parody should only be for kids is grossly missing the point. Since you aren't exactly the first person to miss this point, it should hardly be surprising that these manchildren are staking some claim to what is just as rightfully theirs.

Your talking to me like I don't realize that adults can enjoy the product when I am very much an adult who enjoys the product. The point is don't ruin it for the kids. I am thankful that I don't remember anyone celebrating Macho Man hitting Steamboat in the throat with the ring bell. My childhood sensitivities were not ready to understand why someone would celebrate that. Do we celebrate villians in the movies? No, we enjoy them, we may drop our jaws in awe but ultimately we celebrate the good guys winning in the end or we don't go to the movie.

Why would the company not want people to have a ridiculously good time?

Because there are already too many unwanted children in the world.

What are we talking about at this point?

No idea how loudest pop of the night could not be genuine. Why would they chant for something they don't want?

I concede this point. The pop was genuine. It was wrong, but it was genuine.

When did Miz ever have crowd support? Ziggler will be as successful as any other smackdown champ. People, myself included, think Ziggler is talented. Get over it. Why do think he would be more successful if that reaction didn't happen? If it is because he is a heel, I reiterate DBD last year to this year.

I've talked Ziggler to death on this forum. I think there are better ways to make him more interesting and more profitable. He does some things really well and he has his place on WWE television but ultimately he is not over enough with a big portion of the universe.

Go ahead and search my posts about Ziggler for more if you want. I'm not turning this in to a discussion about him.

Well, weren't you already advocating that before I showed up? I advocate both companies putting out enjoyable wrestling. If you want your style then get your people to buy the tickets before these hellions and show up and express your gratitude for that script they whipped together that afternoon by clapping at a moderate volume when "appropriate."

When I figure out what "hellions" mean, maybe I will do just that. But frankly I don't care enough, I'd rather spend my time here bitching and moaning with you.

 

[Sheamusx3]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PQe3sJ0uRhM
Teacher made a song for fandango bc he was inspired. By the crowd it's a remix !!

 

[Brahma_Bull9]

I honestly believe stuff like what happened last Monday could be the downfall of wrestling if it catches on. Too many cooks in the kitchen. Too many people concerned with trying anoint stars and dictate the direction of the product.

Edit: The problem isn't crowd involvement. The crowds during the late 80s and early 90s were FAR better than last Monday. And the Attitude Era crowds were the best ever. The difference is they were into the stories being told, and not there to protest everything.

So what was the crowd going for Austin and not Bret Hart then? Which pretty much birthed the attitude era. It was a combination of both, the crowd doing what it wanted and the company adjusting how it thought accordingly and it did an excellent job then.

Now not so much, but I will say coming off a terrible wrestlemania they did what they needed to on Raw. But I think that was planned in advance and not a reaction to the reaction to Wrestlemania.

 

[Nikeo]

On the subject of Ziggler:

Give it six months and the fans here will be calling him "stale, boring, overexposed and a failure of a champ". Two weeks if the kids start cheering him.

He'll go the way of Orton with the internet marks. Trust.

As for the crowd, I didn't see the crowd in question so I can't give an informed opinion. But I'll give an opinion anyway. I've seen many a crowd like this and they're a double-edged sword in many respects. Firstly, they can break the monotany and make for a memorable atmosphere. However, having read some of the chants and had a chat with a mate who'd seen it, one could make the case that this particular crowd were "trying to get themselves over" in a manner of speaking.

It's one thing to not like a match, it's another to start disliking it from the outset without giving the guys a chance. The crowd has a right to do what they want, within reason, at an event but that doesn't mean they're not doing it to look cool. "Look, we're so alternative.....we don't like the guy you want us like! We like the other one!" The stereotype of a "smark" (and I use the s in front of mark VERY loosely) is the furthest thing from cool, but that's neither here 'nor there.

Some say "they're not invested in the product so they didn't pay attention". Most of them shilled out a lot of money to attend both Raw and 'Mania AND watch the product every week (so they can later complain about it......yet still tuning in the week later, as one often does to show one's displeasure) so they knew what they were in for. Were they somehow duped into thinking they'd be seeing Daniel Bryan Vs AJ Styles in a 60 Minute Iron Man match?

Personally? I like a healthy mix of (s)mark and normal fans, kind of like 'Mana 22, where there's almost a dueling mix of views. Too many IWC fans in one place, while undeniably loud/passionate, try too hard to be cool in many respects and make me cringe at times.

"WE ARE AWESOME!" Is that what you tell yourself when you go back to mum's basement, download the latest WoW expansion, and scour the internet for someone desperate enough to take your innocence?

Going back to Ziggler (who thoroughly deserved his win) for a moment, as I said, in six months time the IWC'll be complaining about how over-exposed he is and will be crying out for him to drop the belt so Evan Bourne "can get what he deserves".

EDIT: Comparing the crowd of Austin/Bret to a bunch of smarks chanting "WE R AWESOME" is absurd. Beyond absurd....lunacy. I've had a look at parts of the show since typing this so I can safely say that that crowd are not perpetuate larger trends/viewpoints echoed by the rest of the fanbase. Crowds like that every week would be a very bad thing for the buiness.

 

[cigar]

On the subject of Ziggler:
Give it six months and the fans here will be calling him "stale, boring, overexposed and a failure of a champ". Two weeks if the kids start cheering him.

He'll go the way of Orton with the internet marks. Trust.

They haven't turned on Daniel Bryan yet.

Some say "they're not invested in the product so they didn't pay attention". Most of them shilled out a lot of money to attend both Raw and 'Mania AND watch the product every week (so they can later complain about it......yet still tuning in the week later, as one often does to show one's displeasure) so they knew what they were in for. Were they somehow duped into thinking they'd be seeing Daniel Bryan Vs AJ Styles in a 60 Minute Iron Man match?

Not necessarily. I don't think a lot of people know what they're in for when they purchase Wrestlemania tickets since most buy them so far in advance. And any time I've ever been to a live event, I have no idea what I'm going to see. I've been to bad shows and I've been to great shows. Should the crowd just shut up if the show I'm at is sub-par? This is a pretty extreme case, but a case nonetheless. I'm from the area and I know a decent amount of people that went to Mania this year, and I'd say out of 25 or so people who went maybe 5 still watch regularly. Wrestlemania, and therefore the Raw immediately after, are always gonna have that weird crowd of die-hard's and former die-hard's. A roundabout way of saying it, but I don't think it's fair to assume they all knew what they were getting into.

"WE ARE AWESOME!" Is that what you tell yourself when you go back to mum's basement, download the latest WoW expansion, and scour the internet for someone desperate enough to take your innocence?

Really, man? We're on the internet talking about wrestling.

 

[Agent Of S.H.I.E.L.D.]

The fans haven't turned on Bryan, but since he's not A #1 Top Of The List he's being *buried* constantly. Just like Ziggler has been BURIED for months. Find me one of the guys complaining about this, and I'll show you a fat dude who hasn't seen his own dick in a few years.

 

[Nikeo]

They haven't turned on Daniel Bryan yet.



Not necessarily. I don't think a lot of people know what they're in for when they purchase Wrestlemania tickets since most buy them so far in advance. And any time I've ever been to a live event, I have no idea what I'm going to see. I've been to bad shows and I've been to great shows. Should the crowd just shut up if the show I'm at is sub-par? This is a pretty extreme case, but a case nonetheless. I'm from the area and I know a decent amount of people that went to Mania this year, and I'd say out of 25 or so people who went maybe 5 still watch regularly. Wrestlemania, and therefore the Raw immediately after, are always gonna have that weird crowd of die-hard's and former die-hard's. A roundabout way of saying it, but I don't think it's fair to assume they all knew what they were getting into.



Really, man? We're on the internet talking about wrestling.

Perhaps because the WWE gave Bryan the Punk circa-2008 World title push: You're the guy....but you're not the guy. In my view, it's a throwaway reign in order to give Bryan credibility so that the crowd, if/when he gets a full on Main-Event push, he's already associated with the Main-Event scene. I don't think I'm wording that properly but I think you'll get what I mean. The fact he's a former World champion, though he didn't get the major marketting machine behind him, adds credibility to any future push.

Once he gets the major push he'll lose at least some of his IWC fanbase. I may be being cynical but I've seen it quite a bit. You can't dispute that IWC darlings lose a lot of fans when they go "mainstream". Maybe he won't. The IWC don't have a great history of sticking with people who succeed in making it to the Main-Event though.

I get what your saying about the Wrestlemania, I concede that maybe not everyone who attended watches regularly. However, I'd dispute the idea that 1/5 of the audience watch regularly. I just don't think that's realistic. A lot of them seemed to know Fandango's theme song quite well.

I think it's quite fair to assume many of them knew what they were in for. Should they accept a sub-par show? No. They shouldn't. However, they should give the show a chance before shitting all over it. They had it out for Sheamus/Orton quite early on. Does one go to a Rihanna concert and start boo'ing her because she's singing Rihanna songs? Not a perfect example but I think it's a fair point.

I'd further venture that, were I to purchase Raw/'Mania tickets, I'd certainly acquaint myself with the product either before or after said purchase.

My point about these types of fans has its' roots here. I see a lot of people on this forum who complain about every Raw and how shit it is....but still watch every week. Do you not concede that that's a bit odd? I stopped liking both WWE/TNA in about 2010ish, so I stopped watching. I couldn't believe how much BOTH companies had improved when I started watching again......but very few in the IWC admitted this. My point is, many people complain about the product but still shill out for it. You obviously enjoy it on some level, like the crowd that attended that night.

Yes, we are on the internet talking about wrestling. The difference is I wasn't at a Raw taping chanting "WE ARE AWESOME", like a fool. I also have a social life outside of watching wrestling. Overall though, you can't say the IWC stereotype isn't perpetuated by many of the IWC fans you meet in real life.

Getting back on topic, I'm not saying the crowd shouldn't voice their disproval....I'm saying don't shit all over everything needlessly. We can dispute this day and night but I'd argue the majority of them knew the wrestlers and type of angles they'd see on the night. If they didn't think they'd like it they shouldn't have bought tickets. They should also stop watching the product.

 

[Brahma_Bull9]

On the subject of Ziggler:

Give it six months and the fans here will be calling him "stale, boring, overexposed and a failure of a champ". Two weeks if the kids start cheering him.

He'll go the way of Orton with the internet marks. Trust.

As for the crowd, I didn't see the crowd in question so I can't give an informed opinion. But I'll give an opinion anyway. I've seen many a crowd like this and they're a double-edged sword in many respects. Firstly, they can break the monotany and make for a memorable atmosphere. However, having read some of the chants and had a chat with a mate who'd seen it, one could make the case that this particular crowd were "trying to get themselves over" in a manner of speaking.

It's one thing to not like a match, it's another to start disliking it from the outset without giving the guys a chance. The crowd has a right to do what they want, within reason, at an event but that doesn't mean they're not doing it to look cool. "Look, we're so alternative.....we don't like the guy you want us like! We like the other one!" The stereotype of a "smark" (and I use the s in front of mark VERY loosely) is the furthest thing from cool, but that's neither here 'nor there.

Some say "they're not invested in the product so they didn't pay attention". Most of them shilled out a lot of money to attend both Raw and 'Mania AND watch the product every week (so they can later complain about it......yet still tuning in the week later, as one often does to show one's displeasure) so they knew what they were in for. Were they somehow duped into thinking they'd be seeing Daniel Bryan Vs AJ Styles in a 60 Minute Iron Man match?

Personally? I like a healthy mix of (s)mark and normal fans, kind of like 'Mana 22, where there's almost a dueling mix of views. Too many IWC fans in one place, while undeniably loud/passionate, try too hard to be cool in many respects and make me cringe at times.

"WE ARE AWESOME!" Is that what you tell yourself when you go back to mum's basement, download the latest WoW expansion, and scour the internet for someone desperate enough to take your innocence?

Going back to Ziggler (who thoroughly deserved his win) for a moment, as I said, in six months time the IWC'll be complaining about how over-exposed he is and will be crying out for him to drop the belt so Evan Bourne "can get what he deserves".

EDIT: Comparing the crowd of Austin/Bret to a bunch of smarks chanting "WE R AWESOME" is absurd. Beyond absurd....lunacy. I've had a look at parts of the show since typing this so I can safely say that that crowd are not perpetuate larger trends/viewpoints echoed by the rest of the fanbase. Crowds like that every week would be a very bad thing for the buiness.

When you take the comparison out of context, yea. However, it's not lunacy the only thing that is looney is dvr'ing raw and watching it more than once and analyzing the crowd. I hear stupid chants all the time at shows, and I don't recall the We are awesome one because well I don't spend 6 hours of my week watching the same tv show.

I love it how this dude is going to try and make a point that it is the IWC, smarks and all this shit when look at yourself man, you are the IWC.

Half of it was people who are I guess what you would call the "IWC" but then you come on here and all you see is people on the internet bitching about other people that supposvely were on the internet. Yet I don't see nearly as many attest to being at that show as I do seeing you people whine about it.

It's not disruptive, if someone can tell me how they stale storylines will drag on or parts of that show will be reincorportated because of the crowd show me?

JJ Reddick's number was chanted by MD fans during college, that's disruptive, sometimes they chant Fuck Duke up there, but did they stop playing basketball, no. They are going to keep doing the same damn thing regardless of what the audience chants. And the it will drag out storylines is a moot point because the story lines don't advance, and they show the same fucking segments 5 times. Once when it happened, once again later that night on Raw, the on Smackdown, then on Raw again, and then once more again before the two confront each other again.

You all are a bunch of damn whiners.