Could Scott Hall Have Been The Greatest Success of the Kliq?

[Nikkolas]

The Kliq - Shawn Michaels, Kevin "Diesel" Nash, Triple H, Scott "Razor Ramon" Hall and Sean "X-Pac/Syxx/1-2-3 Kid" Waltman - are all extremely famous in their own right. Obviously Hunter and Shawn have had the most success but no one could objectively call any of the others failures. They each left unforgettable marks on wrestling history.

But of them, Scott Hall's legacy is the saddest because it could have been so much more. The question I pose to all of you is how much more?

Scott, in addition to his demons, seemed to lack ambition. He didn't care aboout being the top guy like Trips, Nash or Shawn. He just wanted money and to hang with his buds.

So, if he had stayed clean and tried to be #1, where do you think he'd be?

Look: 9. Second only to Nash in standing out, he was quite tall which you didn't notice because he fought a lot of big guys. When he was in shape he had a very nice body to boot. And of course who can forget that awesome face and hair of his.

Charisma - 9 or 9.5
10 is reserved for the absolute charismabeasts like Hogan. But Scott positively sweated machismo. He had a swagger about him that was unmatched. He was so popular in WWF they had to turn him face. And, if anything, his charisma only grew when he went to WCW. His surveys were awesome and he could get major pops just with "Hey Yo" after a while.
He was also far more natural on the mic than Triple H or Shawn in my opinion.

In-Ring Skill: 6. Not the best worker ever but he did okay for himself. Had a really nice fallaway slam and of course the Outsider's Edge was great.

So, what do you think of my assessment of his talents? And if we rank the Klq Success as Shawn > Hunter >>> Nash >>> Hall/Waltman, how far could Scott have gone up?

Spoiler

And in case you're wondering, I would assess the rest of the Kliq as:

Shawn
Look: 6, maybe 7.
Charisma/Mic Skills: 9.5
In-Ring ability: 9

Triple H
Look: 9
Charisma//Mic Skills: 7.5
In-ring ability: 7

Kevin Nash
Look: 10
Charisma/Mic Skills: 8.5 or 9
In-ring ability: 4 in the WWF when he was more agile

X-Pac
Look: 3 or 4
Charisma/Mic Skills: 6 (he gets underrated in this department)
In-ring ability: 8.5

 

[HBKperfect23]

Scott was very very good. Great on the mic and pretty damn good in the ring. Best of the bunch might be a bit of a stretch considering present company. Shawn Michaels and Triple H are two of the greatest wrestlers of all time. I do think Scott would have made a great world champion in WWF, WCW, and even again when returning to WWE in 2002. But on the same level as HBK/HHH? Id say he would still be considered a step below those two.

To rank the Kliq: HBK, HHH, Nash, Hall, Xpac. I only see Scott being able to jump one spot in these rankings. But who knows what could have happened if he had his head on straight?....

 

[closet_fan]

I don't know how you can say he lacked ambition. People seem to think his career started in 1992. He was wrestling for 9 years prior for the NWA, AWA, WWC and WCW before he came to the WWE. If he lacked ambition, he would have never even made it as Razor Ramon.

 

[Nikkolas]

I say he lacked ambition because he could have easily been a main eventer and World Champion. Yet he was content to let both Shawn and Kev take that scene both in the WWF and WCW.

 

[rokuma]

Scott had a lot of great talent, but let's be honest: HBK was the best in-ring performer of the group and on the mic in the 90s was one of the best EVER...actually still great after his comeback in 2002.

Scott's skills were definitely far more superior than Nash's and he was more over (IMO), but I think the one member of the click who had should've been the biggest is Triple H. He is a great in-ring performer, great build, lacking somewhat on charisma that HBK, Hall, and Nash had. I can't help but think HHH would've been up there with Rock, Austin, Hogan if he had Hall/Nash/HBK's charisma. With his build? He'd be what we expected Scott Hall to be.

 

[donfryeismyhero]

Scott Hall was a legit main eventer. He was great on the mic and could go toe to toe with anyone their. His in ring skills were second only to The Undertaker as far as big men go, if Taker was a 10, Scott was an 8. Charisma for days. I disagree that he lacked ambition. The fact of the matter is as an in ring performer, he should his desire to improve and give the fans a great match. I don't ever recall him phoning it in. Look at his career from when he was in the AWA, his 1st run in WCW through his 1st run in WWE & 2nd run in WCW. A lot of improvement was made there. He may not have used politics to attempt to be a world champ but that's probably because he didn't want to have any friction with HBK or Nash. At the end of the day, his demons ruined a great career as well as his person life which is sad & unfortanate. While I don't think he could of been bigger than HBK, I do think he could of surpassed HHH & Nash if not for his demons.

 

[CM Steel]

I looked online at Imdb.com and looked up all the birth dates of the members of the kliq, and Scott Hall is the oldest member of the kliq being born a year ahead of Kevin Nash. Not saying that since Scott Hall is the oldest member. But Hall was needed to be & looked upon as the big brother of the kliq in the respect of Scott's ring knowledge. His passion for the business. He really understood the business very well. But his inter demons played a major factor in Scott Hall's all-around wrestling career post his WWF days.

Now adays Scott Hall is the dying daddy of the kliq who everybody in the family has to play a role in Scott Hall's life to keep him alive from the inside. I still got love for Scott Hall (chico!). I just pray that Scott Hall gets it all together for his wrestling legacy. And for his family.

 

[The Hardcore Kid]

Look, Scott Hall is an all-time great, no doubt, but I think you're grossly underestimating Shawn Michaels here. The Kliq was entirely formed to serve HBK, and serve it did, but on top of that HBK is one of the most natural, charismatic wrestlers in history.

I don't know how you can say Hall was more natural on the mic than HBK.

Yes, Hall could have been a world champion, but does that make him an all-time great? Plenty of undeserving jabronis are former world champions. Conversely, plenty of greats never held world gold.

Michaels and HHH defined multiple eras. Hall is a footnote in one.

 

[MINISTRYrising]

i think if scott had managed to stay clean and beat his addictions then he would have been a lot more successful and would have at some point won the wwe or wcw world title. he was a hell of a talent and had great mic skills. just i shame it all went wrong

 

[sTyLnK]

HBK will always be the best, but "Razor" had the potential to be at the top and easily stay at the top if he could have stayed grounded and not gotten mixed up with his demons. He was a great wrestler and fairly decent when he opened his mouth. What could have been huh?

 

[Nikkolas]

Look, Scott Hall is an all-time great, no doubt, but I think you're grossly underestimating Shawn Michaels here. The Kliq was entirely formed to serve HBK, and serve it did, but on top of that HBK is one of the most natural, charismatic wrestlers in history.

I don't know how you can say Hall was more natural on the mic than HBK.

Yes, Hall could have been a world champion, but does that make him an all-time great? Plenty of undeserving jabronis are former world champions. Conversely, plenty of greats never held world gold.

Michaels and HHH defined multiple eras. Hall is a footnote in one.

Not taking anything away from Trips - he was my favorite wrestler from about 1998-2003 or 4 - but his "defining multiple eras" has as much to do with his backstage stuff as it has to do with his actual on-screen ability. I don't believe in the "Reign of Terror" nonsense because Booker and the others Trips didn't put over were not really deserving of being the #1 guy, but I still don't think Triple H is an all-time great based just on his actual ability.

All of the Kliq are known movers and shakers in terms of politics but they all had varying degrees of ability to back it up. Nash is a what, 4 or 5 time World Champion? But it was in the death throws of WCW and by then he had even less in-ring ability than before.

My point is, Triple H's success is not just due to his actual performance in the ring. I'm just talking about their abilities in that area and I think Hall is better than Hunter in a few of them.

 

[anvilx8]

I think Hall could have been one of the greatest ever, and stil did very well for himself.. but I don't think he woud have ever done bigger or better things than HBK. I think he would have been greater than Nash for sure and MAYBE even HHH. He had a great look, and had the mic skills, and the in-ring abilty to have awesome matches.

I just hope he gets inducted into the HOF despite his drug use.. that'd be a shame.

 

[HBKistheHOF]

Never.

I always thought Nash was a lump of garbage & X-Pac always annoyed me because it was always so obvious that he had bacjstage "issues" & was being carried by the rest of them(sound familiar? Raw 1000? Does nothing, but somehow still comes off as a creepy, rapist to Trish.) but HBK & HHH were always the most talented.

Although Hall could have been alot more IMO. He could still be around WWE, RAW 1000, etc. if it wasn't for the drugs & addictions.

 

[Defekt]

Being as Shawn Michaels is possibly the greatest wrestler ever, and HHH is the 2nd most powerful man in the wrestling industry, and will be running the WWE in the next decade, I don't think there is anything Scott Hall could have done to be more successful than either of them.

 

[HBsam31]

I always like Hall, and he did well for himself. He could have done a lot more, but he was never going to be an HBK or HHH. I too believe the OP is underestimating HBK here, and HHH was the top heel in the company for a number of years. I just couldn't see Hall attaining the success of either of those two. I think he could have been head and shoulders above Nash though if he would have stayed clean. The HBK/ Razor Ramon ladder matches are some of my favorite of all time, and I greatly respect Hall as a performer, but I don't think he could have been the best of the bunch.

 

[Nikkolas]

I do not underestimate Shawn. He's by far the best in-ring performer of all of them and probably the most charismatic too.

I guess I just feel Hunter is being overrated.

I always thought Nash was a lump of garbage & X-Pac always annoyed me because it was always so obvious that he had bacjstage "issues" & was being carried by the rest of them(sound familiar? Raw 1000? Does nothing, but somehow still comes off as a creepy, rapist to Trish.) but HBK & HHH were always the most talented.

Waltman put on one of the best matches in Raw history and it most assuredly wasn't due just to Bret. Bret could carry a guy no question but even his carry jobs only managed "decent" and not "Great" and 1-2-3 Kid vs. Bret was definitely Great.

Plus people seem to forget Triple H floundered as a heel for quite a while. His main event push was a long and concentrated effort. X-Pac was more over than him for a long time. Being one of the most over guys in the Attitude Era is quite impressive.

I guess Scott really isn't the Kliq member in dire need of recognition for his abilities.

 

[IT Factor]

Back when Scott was in WWF as Razor Ramon, he definetely deserved a WWF Title run. The fact that he made such an immediate impact jumping from WWF to WCW was proof of how great he truly was. That was at the pinnacle of Hall's career and he deserved a run with both titles[WWF & WCW] for his impact on both companies. He personal life will always overshadow his in-ring greatness which is a shame. He was such a gifted performer who had every tool needed to be a brand carrying champion. I certainly think there were vastly less talented people given WWF Titles and/or WCW Titles that Hall was better than.

Did anyone else catch the ESPN special on Scott Hall? I mean, damn. I'm a 28 year old grown man and I rarely cry over pro wrestling. But that special was so pathetic detailing Hall's rise and fall that I was moved almost to tears. It is indeed a sad story and it is sad that Hall won't have the legacy in wrestling that he deserved to have. He'll no doubt be a hall-of-famer one day, but he was capable of so much more. I just hope he can manage to get his life together and somehow channel that into grooming his son into a champion contender. That would be another way to leave a legacy in wrestling and contribute to the future.

 

[FlairFan2003]

Hall was not more over than Nash. I was a huge WCW fan and while Hall was definately over he was never as big as Nash. From the moment Nash arrived they were looked at as the WWE World Champion & that other guy who was famous there.

The ridiculous cheezy accent, maybe the worst Cuban- Puerto Rican imitation ever, should have been ditched the minute he quit being Razor Ramoan. It did get him over with crowds though.

Although Hall got some good reactions on the mic I honestly cant remember one promo he ever did. I still enjoy watching Nash respond to Flair & Piper in his "Leaving The Highway Bare" promo in 97 or the great interview he cut regarding his own year long undefeated streak right before Starrcade 98. As an interview, Hall was probably the least talented of the bunch.

No doubt his issues hampered his success, Vince may have wished he could keep Nash but he probably didnt miss Hall leaving that much. In WCW after about a year It seemed the only thing Hall did was make short term appearances and job out, probably because of his drug and alcohol issues.

No doubt he could have done more, either as part of the NWO Angle in WCW or by staying in WWE and participating in the Attitude Era. However, even without his substance abuse issues, he lags behind HBK, Trips & Nash in charisma and promos and def HBK & HHH in performance level. He never would have eclipsed those guys.

 

[Nikkolas]

Well this topic has made me curious to hear your guys' thoughts on something.

How would you rate the Kliq from best to worst in the following categories?

Look (the ability to draw eyes to themselves and make sure that you never forgot them)

Charisma (the enigmatic "It Factor" that determines above all else whether you'll succeed or fail in the business)

Mic Skills (the ability to work the crowd with your voice alone)

Workrate (their skill in he actual ring and during matches)

My Example-
Look:
Nash
Hall
Triple H
Shawn
X-Pac

 

[CrucifiedRaven]

Hall could be where HHH is. He could have been where HHH was in 2000. If he had his head on straight.

In fact, I would have loved to cut Diesel's title reign in half in 95 and see what Razer could have done with the ball.

Shawn is the clear number one. He was JUST as fucked up as Hall... And JUST as high most of the time - yet he still managed to have great matches, and carry the company.

If Hall stayed in WWF in '96 and had his head on straight - he would have been given priority for the main event push over HHH I bet.

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

I don't think Hall could ever have eclipsed Shawn or HHH, those two guys have the complete package, the in-ring ability, charisma and the look. They were always going to make it to the absolute top of the business.

Nash's benefit was his size. Wrestling promoters have always traditionally gone for the big man, although Hall was also a huge bloke and had a great body in his prime. Nash was also smart enough to play the political game backstage better than Scott and was able to stay clean while Michaels, Hall and Waltman got high.

I think Scott COULD have achieved as much as Big Sexy did, had he not had his substance problems. WWE went with Diesel for the big title run, and Razor could have easily have been given the rub then. I would have liked to have seen Razor with the WWE title at some point, unfortunately he went to WCW with Nash before he won the big belt.

In the nWo, Hall was only ever going to be the 3rd guy. Hogan and Nash were the top 2, and while remaining in the faction there was little chance of Scott eclipsing those guys. However, had he got over his demons then there was always the opportunity of doing a storyline similar to Randy Orton/Evolution where Hall broke away from the group as a face and took on Nash or Hogan for their title. Unfortunately, his issues would never have allowed WWE or WCW to go with him as the top guy, he was far too unreliable.

It's very sad to see Scott in the way he is now. While HBK managed to get clean, Hall has still to do so and the documentary on ESPN is so upsetting. I really do hope we see Scott eventually conquer his demons and get healthier, not to return to the ring but for his family. He could really help his son Cody as he progresses in the business, and its well known what a great mind for wrestling Scott has- he came up with the idea of Michaels using the Superkick for his finishing move.

He definitely should be a consideration for the HOF, along with Nash and it would be a crying shame if Hall never made it in because of his drug problems, or even worse if he passed away without being remembered as a top class talent by his peers.

 

[Wald]

Is everyone forgetting Justin Incredible?! Oh wait they want to.....

It's been answered already in this thread anyway, he could never have been best because HBK is in that group you listed. He could have topped Nash easily and if you take out Hall's drug problem and Stephanie's influence I think he had the talent to top Triple H too, but those are big ifs