Bret Hart: Not As Big A Star As He Thinks

[Y 2 Jake]

I'm not trying to get into the debate about Bret's wrestling. Because he's a quality wrestler and this thread doesn't have much to do with that. I'm just curious as to why he's such a big star. He is considered to be one of the biggest names in wrestling. And what for?

Most of his title reigns were pretty meaningless. His first run was completley undone by Hogan's selfishness. It was fine for him to loose it to Yokozuna. But then Hogan went and beat 'Zuna in 20 seconds. Completley undermining Hart.

His second was completley undone by his loss to Backlund. He lost the title so that Backlund could loose it days later to Diesel. And throughout 1995 he was in boring mid card feuds. The only exciting matches I remember him having were with The Bulldog & Hakushi.

His third was pretty much to set up HBK as champion.

And his forth was won by a screwy finish, and he didn't actually loose it properly.

He was never a HUGE star when WWF had it's initial big run, when Hogan was running the show. Yeah he was part of a big team. He was promoted strongly. But Hogan was pretty much all fans went to see in those days.

He was a part of WWE throughout all of the cartoon era. He was stuck on the same roster as Crush, Repo Man, Doink etc. Not that he didn't have entertaining matches. But it wasn't a good time for WWF.

He was in the number 2 promotion throughout pretty much all of the Monday Night Wars. And when he did change promotion he was once again on the number two promotion.

Looking back over his career, he was a excellent wrestler. He was a pretty good talker. But All I really remember him for is Montreal and the death of Owen.

Does anyone else wonder why he's as popular as he is? Again he does deserve his popularity, but it's still kind of a mystery to me.

 

[Shocky]

Ehh, Bret Hart is always a tough subject.

Bret Hart, first and foremost, may have been the best company guy the WWE has ever had until his departure in 1997. I say that knowing full well of guys like the Undertaker still being around. Bret went to bat for the company many times.

Bret and Mr. Perfect were to guys that stood outlike sore thumbs during the prime of Hulkamania. Why like sore thumbs? because they were the only two putting on respectable matches for many years in the company, while the main eventers were to busy flexing their steroid induced muscles instead of lurning and arm bar.

Bret's first title reign was fucked by Hulk Hogan. But remember, the original plan was for Hogan to take the strap, and then drop the belt to Hart at Summerslam of that same year. Of course, Hogan being the no good bastard he is, refused to do the job, no never Hogan, and that plan was scrapped. So in under a year, Hart would have two title reigns winning one from Ric Flair, and his second From Hulk Hogan, that's establishing a star right there.

His second and third title reigns were forgettable. The only good things to come from those two reigns were his matches against Owen Hart. Again, this isn't Bret's fault, this is the piss poor decision making of the WWF. If we want to talk meaningless title reigns, look no further then Big Daddy Cool Diesel's title reign.

His fourth title reign should have been at WM 13 against HBK, but surprise surprise, HBK refuses to return the favor from the year before. So Bret's title reign was rushed, and shortened. Thanx to another huge ego, Bret's title reign looks like a joke, which it was. HBK miraculously has more knee injuries in 1997, Tonya Harding must have put a hit on him.

His fifth title reign, again, more HBK politicking to be put in the main event. Bret was on the outs with the company, and HBK started to play his power card, knowing full well that Vinnie Mac had no choice but to do what HBK wanted. Vince could not afford to lose Bret, and then have HBK have yet a third "career" ending injury in 1997.

Bret was the face of the company in the mid-90's. He was on TV making appearances everywhere. And lets not forget, just because us English speaking folks may not be to high on Hart, the guy is probably more over world wide then any other living wrestler, and that includes Hulk Hogan. We all know Hart is a god in Canada, but in Asia, and the Middle East, he is still a wrestling god to those people.

Hart is simply a great wrestler, in the wrong places at the wrong time. He finally stands up for himself at the end of his WWE career against politicking bastards, and he gets screwed for it.

 

[theflash219]

I can't remember being more offended by a topic. Let me explain something. Bret Hart is one of the all-time greats. While Hogan, Warrior, and the others were busy shooting up and acting like prima donnas, Bret wrestled and he did it better than 99% of the company. When the feds tried to ruin Vince's life, Bret was the man he turned to. Bret was the one chosen to carry the company when it was clear that Hogan's time was over. I remember growing up, Bret Hart was my hero. In a world filled overmuscled simpletons and larger-than-life egos, The Hitman represented everything that was good about wrestling. He wrestled and wrestled well. His promos were articulate. He didn't yell, he didn't ramble, and he didn't feel the need to act like a cartoon character when he was given a mic. His Iron Man match with HBK is what I consider to be the greatest match of all-time. (It's what happens when Vince puts HBK with someone who can actually work.) He did have his faults (Five Moves of Doom Syndrome comes to mind.) But in terms of all-time greats, he should always be in the top five.

 

[cptncharisma316]

Although your opinions are valid, and your facts are supported well, I'll have to disagree. Bret Hart stepped up huge. He knew he could be a star, and rather than complain about his lack of a push (when Hogan and Yoko were centered around the title) he just did what he did best, wrestle. Had he complained, this thread could be called Lex Luger: not as big a star as he thought he was. Bret handled himself well, and took all the crap that he could until the infamous screw job. His legacy is unmistakeable, and he would get the biggest pop ever if he were to return today, more than Steve Austin or Hulk Hogan ever could in this day.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

I can't remember being more offended by a topic. Let me explain something. Bret Hart is one of the all-time greats. While Hogan, Warrior, and the others were busy shooting up and acting like prima donnas, Bret wrestled and he did it better than 99% of the company. When the feds tried to ruin Vince's life, Bret was the man he turned to. Bret was the one chosen to carry the company when it was clear that Hogan's time was over. I remember growing up, Bret Hart was my hero. In a world filled overmuscled simpletons and larger-than-life egos, The Hitman represented everything that was good about wrestling. He wrestled and wrestled well. His promos were articulate. He didn't yell, he didn't ramble, and he didn't feel the need to act like a cartoon character when he was given a mic. His Iron Man match with HBK is what I consider to be the greatest match of all-time. (It's what happens when Vince puts HBK with someone who can actually work.) He did have his faults (Five Moves of Doom Syndrome comes to mind.) But in terms of all-time greats, he should always be in the top five.

You didn't read the thread did you? If you had then you would realise that in no way is this thread dissing Hart. It's not saying he isn't a great wrestler, it's not saying he wasn't loyal. It's not saying he had the promo ability of Batista. Make another post when you read the thread and you actually know what it is about.

 

[Evan Snow-Wolf]

I think the problem with Bret Hart has nothing to do with Bret Hart himself. I really don't think Bret, as a wrestler, is over-rated at all. I think he was a fine talent, a credible champion, and a great stay with the fans.

I think the problem with Bret Hart is not that the Hitman thinks he's too big a star, but his fans and marks do. Of any superstar, from any promotion, that I have ever seen... I have never seen any superstar that possesses more fundamentalist zealots under their fanbase. Its like Hart became a religion. I've never seen louder, more screaming devotees to anyone else. Not Hogan, not Austin, not Rock, not Sting, not Flair, not anybody.

Not to make insult, but theflash219 is a prime example. "I can't remember being more offended by a topic."

Because you aren't allowed to say anything negative about the almighty Hart. Hart is all, Hart is God. Hart is untouchable.

My largest shout outs go to HBK, Foley, Undertaker, and Flair. But I don't get my underwear in a knot when someone speaks bad about them. HBK was a crybaby politicker that wanted his way. Foley is a glorified stuntman. Undertaker never rose as a championship material. Flair doesn't run with the same gas in his tank as he used to. But I can take all of that and accept my wrestling heroes for who they are, rather than wrap them inside a warm fuzzy dream of perfection.

Bret Hart was mortal. Bret knows that. I just wish his fans knew that, too.

 

[Slyfox696]

To actually answer the original question of the thread...

He is considered to be one of the biggest names in wrestling. And what for?

Two reasons.

1) Montreal Screwjob, and the defection to WCW. That was a HUGE story, even at the time, and put a lot of attention on Hart. Everyone knew the guy was one of the best at the time, and everyone knew how loyal he was, so for him to get screwed by the very place many fans felt that he had done everything for, it made fans sympathize with Hart, and defend him with a religious fervor. And speaking of the Montreal Screwjob, this leads to reason number 2...

2) Dave Meltzer.

I think if Dave Meltzer could pick any person in this world to have sex with, Meltzer would choose to suck Bret's dick. Don't get me wrong, Hart was good and Meltzer is probably the most respectable journalist of them all (which doesn't say a whole lot), but the way Meltzer writes about Hart, it reminds me of Romeo singing the praises of his sweet Juliet. There are minor wrestling journalists (Scott Keith comes to mind) that also idolize Hart, but Dave Meltzer probably has done as much for Bret Hart's fame as anyone can claim. And, as the saying in wrestling goes, "if Meltzer said it, it must be true".

Gag me now.

 

[Kasey]

Hart is considered one of the biggest names because he got himself over without ultra-corny gimmickry. He proudly wore pink for fuck's sake...and he still got way over (let's see John Cena do that). Also, his wrestling was extremely consistent throughout the breadth of his WWF tenure and he also cut a hell of a pace in terms of working on the road on regular basis and protecting his opponents (except for Bad News apparently). He was also the go-to-guy when McMahon had run his own company into the ground by entrusting the next legacy to Jim Helwig while guys like Hogan, Savage, and Flair were supposedly retiring (Hogan), left the company (Flair), or were just underused (Savage). The problem with that is that every time Vince painted himself into a corner during the 1990's and didn't know what the hell to do, Bret was handed the bag (in this case, the belt) and just did what he always did: wrestle well and cut solid promos (especially during 1996 and 1997). I've been a proud fan of Hart for a long time, but I still think a large chunk of his career was a complete waste due to a lack of foresight on the part of the companies he was working for. There are some shining moments in terms of wrestling and whatnot, but he wasn't used in a worthwhile storyline until right before he left the WWF. What a pity.

 

[hbk&triple h]

I do think that Hart isn't as big as hes made out.He was for sure great but not big.The only thing i can think of that would ever make him big is the Montreal Screwjob.It did create quite a controversy.But other than that there was nothing big that he did to make Bret Hart "big".So my answer is he is not a big star.

 

[Emmet]

Bret Hart is my favourite wrestler of all time, without doubt he is one of the best wrestlers that has ever graced the squared circle, but I can agree with some of the original points that Y2Jake has made.

His first title reign was shit all over by Hogan, not Bret's fault, Hogan ment to give it back at SS 1993, never happened.

Bret wins it at WM X, this reign I think is his best, yeah fair enough he lost it to Backlund he in turn lost it to Diesel in 7 seconds but Bret had great matches in this reign with Owen and even Diesel.

His 3rd reign was to build up HBK but he again had great matches with Nash, Bulldog, Taker. The Iron Man match as we all know was brillant.

His 4th reign, well we'll say no more about that.

His 5th reign also wasnt great, crappy matches with the Patriot etc. we all know how the reign ended.

Bret's reign's were hampered because of things around him, nothing to do with the man himself. HBK got in Vince's ear alot during his 3rd and 5th reign's and it didnt make Bret look like a great champion. But titles aside Bret was probably in my mind the best wrestler that the WWF/E has ever produced, fair enough he learnt alot from Stampede but he became a star with Vince. Bret could tell a story that was unparalelled. He could make simple things like punches and kicks look as real as possible. He did alot of things for Vince that Hogan or HBK wouldnt have done. He was a company man first and foremost. Bret's qualities lie not in his title runs but by the sheer quantity of great matches hes had with wrestlers all different shapes and sizes. Curt Henning, Bam Bam, Scott Hall, Lawler, Hakushi, Davey Boy, Austin, Taker, HBK, Owen, Nash. He had great matches with all them guys and many more.

He deserves his reputation in my eyes. Yeah Im biased towards him but I can agree that some of title reigns were shit. But as a wrestler he was one of the best. He came 4th on the PWI best wrestler during the PWI years, I dont know how far that magazine goes back but I'm guessing it goes back pretty far.

 

[reddevil69]

I think people are forgetting that Bret Hart was the number one drawing performer in Europe and Asia for the WWF during the 1990's. He was a huge star globally not just in North America, that is why he is perceived as a huge star.The USA is not the centre of the universe, and i'm not trying to be funny or take a cheap shot here.He was voted athlete of the year 3 times in a row in Germany, a country with a population of 170 million people.He also had the majority of people who watched wrestling in Canada at the time behind him as well.It is rare that an entire country rally's around one single performer in the wrestling industry for a decade.While he was being booed in 1997 in America, he was a huge star and hero to millions of other people all over the world who watched wrestling.His recent DVD sales figures are very strong and that's because he was and still is a huge star.Shawn Michaels never had the box office numbers or merchandise numbers during the 1990's that Bret had and that is a fact and the information is out there to support that, yet everyone considers Shawn a major star.The fact is that Shawn has benefitted from being back in the WWE for the past 5 years and is now percieved as a legend.Triple H is considered a huge star and i don't realy believe that his legacy holds up to Bret's so why is it even a question at this point whether Hart was as big a star as he's been made out to be?

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Jake, he's popular because when Hart became a huge star, fans who rooted for Hulk Hogan as 9-14 year-olds started realizing what a hack Hogan was and just how talented Hart was. It because about respect, not hype.

The issue with his lack of attention wasn't Hart, it was his surroundings. Like they said in the Four Horsemen DVD's, who would Magnum TA have been without a great antagonist group like the Horsemen? Bret Hart had no good antagonist until Steve Austin, and by them it was too late!

 

[Slim Pickns]

Sorry Jake, but I think Hart is a big star and I don't think the WWE would be the same if it wasn't for him. He transitioned the WWE from the Hulk Hogan unbeatable big man days, to selling wrestling as the focal point of the show. Thats what the Bret Hart title reigns bought to the WWE, wrestling. Look at the champs before him, Hogan, Warrior, Slaughter, and Undertaker. Then the WWE gave the belt to Flair and Flair put it on Hart. That gave the WWE's best two wrestlers a title program for the first time. The reason Hart seems like less of a star is because he didn't need a flashy gimmick to get over and most importantly he was always willing to job. When the WWE was doing all they could do build up Shawn Michaels, Hart willingly did the job to HBK at Mania. I beleive HBK would be nothing if Hart didn't help put him over. All of these contribute to Hart being one of the biggest stars in my mind.

 

[Ticked Off Texan]

Yeah, this is actually a really tough subject, and after reading some of the post in here I got to thinking, what is Bret Hart most known for now a days, the answer, getting "screwed" by Vince and Shawn. Plus if anyone watched the episodes of Off The Record of Bret and then later Shawn it's obvious that Bret can hold a grudge as he's still pissed about it. There's no arguing that Hart is an amazing wrestler and is respected for what he did in WWE and WCW but it was his decision to leave and he had to much of an ego to lose the title in a match, so Vince decided to do what was right for his company even if Bret didn't want it. And looking at his title reigns:

October 12, 1992 - April 4, 1993
Hart def. Flair and then lost to Yokozuna, three of the biggest names, back in the day was a decent length to hold the title. And Hart did it with style.

March 20, 1994 - Nov. 23, 1994
Hart def. Yokozuna at Mania, Hart won after Yokozuna had two matches. Lost 8 months later to Bob Backlund.

Nov. 19, 1995 - March 31, 1996
Hart def. Deisel in a no DQ match. IMO a come from behind win and the reign was good taking on challangers like Nash, Taker, and HBK in great matches. Eventualy lost to HBK. And I gotta agree with Emmet on this one, the reign was to build up HBK.

Feb. 16, 1997 - Feb. 17, 1997
You get the picture with the dates.

Aug. 3, 1997 - Nov. 9, 1997
Pretty bad reign, not that many good matches IMO but still it was a reign that ended short, Survivor Series '97, Hart, HBK .. you know the rest.

Anyway, take what you want from the reigns but with those aside. Bret Hart is one of the greatest of all time, but he's got a big ego. He needs to forgive Shawn and Vince for the infamous "Montreal Screw Job" because they did what was right for the WWF. And being that I'm a fan of Canadian wrestling and a huge mark for Hart that's hard for me to say. And looking back at his career he does desirve the fame he's received with his matches with Austin, HBK, Owen and a list of whose who of wrestlers but he needs to forget about the past, I can't say that he hasn't because the most recent footage I've seen of him was the Benoit tragedy report of Larry King, and a HOF clip.

So yeah. the #1 Reason we're still talking about Bret a lot is because of the Montreal Screw Job, because that was huge and a lot of Canadian fans are still pissed about.

 

[JoshK1985]

Bret Hart... A great damn wrestler. But Jake does make a good point about his title regins and who he was on a roster with.. Like he said a bunch of cartoon characters. At the time Bret was champion there was maybe only three or four viable guys who could hold the belt and that was Bret, Diesal,HBK and Yoko... That's it becasue the rest of the roster was full of over the top characters or guys just starting to come into there own. Like Rock and Austin were just starting to become big a couple years before Bret left. Anyway Bret is his own biggest fan, when ever he gets the chance he whines about tghe screwjob and all this shit, it happened ten years ago and bret needs to let it go. His star is fading and thats plain and simple he was a good wrestler but always a second fiddle star. in WWF he was behinf Hogan for alittle bit then he was kind of behind HBK, then he goes to WCW where he is behind Hogan again, Sting, and Goldberg.. Bret to me was over hyped.

 

[Emmet]

Yeah, this is actually a really tough subject, and after reading some of the post in here I got to thinking, what is Bret Hart most known for now a days, the answer, getting "screwed" by Vince and Shawn. Plus if anyone watched the episodes of Off The Record of Bret and then later Shawn it's obvious that Bret can hold a grudge as he's still pissed about it. There's no arguing that Hart is an amazing wrestler and is respected for what he did in WWE and WCW but it was his decision to leave and he had to much of an ego to lose the title in a match, so Vince decided to do what was right for his company even if Bret didn't want it. And looking at his title reigns:

October 12, 1992 - April 4, 1993
Hart def. Flair and then lost to Yokozuna, three of the biggest names, back in the day was a decent length to hold the title. And Hart did it with style.

March 20, 1994 - Nov. 23, 1994
Hart def. Yokozuna at Mania, Hart won after Yokozuna had two matches. Lost 8 months later to Bob Backlund.

Nov. 19, 1995 - March 31, 1996
Hart def. Deisel in a no DQ match. IMO a come from behind win and the reign was good taking on challangers like Nash, Taker, and HBK in great matches. Eventualy lost to HBK. And I gotta agree with Emmet on this one, the reign was to build up HBK.

Feb. 16, 1997 - Feb. 17, 1997
You get the picture with the dates.

Aug. 3, 1997 - Nov. 9, 1997
Pretty bad reign, not that many good matches IMO but still it was a reign that ended short, Survivor Series '97, Hart, HBK .. you know the rest.

Anyway, take what you want from the reigns but with those aside. Bret Hart is one of the greatest of all time, but he's got a big ego. He needs to forgive Shawn and Vince for the infamous "Montreal Screw Job" because they did what was right for the WWF. And being that I'm a fan of Canadian wrestling and a huge mark for Hart that's hard for me to say. And looking back at his career he does desirve the fame he's received with his matches with Austin, HBK, Owen and a list of whose who of wrestlers but he needs to forget about the past, I can't say that he hasn't because the most recent footage I've seen of him was the Benoit tragedy report of Larry King, and a HOF clip.

So yeah. the #1 Reason we're still talking about Bret a lot is because of the Montreal Screw Job, because that was huge and a lot of Canadian fans are still pissed about.

Thats not true Texan. Vince asked Hart to leave because he couldnt afford to pay him, he asked Bret to go back to WCW and see if he could get back his old deal, the one they offered him in late 1996. Bret didnt mind losing to HBK anywhere else bar Canada, his contract with WCW didnt start until December 5th, Bret and Vince had nearly a whole month where they could have come up with a plan to take the title off him, and you really think Bret was going to go to WCW with the belt? No chance, it wasnt in Bret to do that sorta thing.

I think he sorta has let go of the MSJ. He did the DVD and the Vinnie Mac RAW thing which was a big step forwards. I reckon if Owen hadn't have died he would be in the WWE right now. I think he still harbours bitterness towards that rather than the MSJ.

 

[reddevil69]

it is Vince and shawn who keep dragging the screw job on, not Bret....both shawn and vince used it as the catalyst for their feud last year and the eventual reformation of DX...it's ok for them to keep bringing it up to use it as fodder for storylines but Bret is the one who can't let it go?...BULLSHIT!....and the whole incident was about respect,not about doing your job...Bret had creative control for his last 30 days and could decide on whatever finish he wanted...much like Shawn has a clause in his contract that he does not have to wrestle on any cards in Calgary...i suppose it's ok if Vince says 'Hey Shawn, we're doing the Survivor series from Calgary, would you put over Carlito', "uhh no i don't want to wrestle in Calgary 'cuz i might get booed because it's Bret's hometown"...it's in his contract, he does not have to do it if he does not want to..if Vince doesn't like it, tough shit, he should not have agreed to the terms of the contract and that is exactly what he did with Bret in 1996 when he re-signed him.....Stone Cold, Foley, The Rock,Rick Rude, Undertaker,Curt Hennig, Ron Simmons, they have all spoke in Bret's defense about this at one time or another...who does Shawn have to vouch for him?..the Harris Twins and HHH...sorry, i'll take Bret's respected group of defender's over HBK's crew any day....Bret was and still is a star and his legacy is important to the history of the WWE period.....

 

[shagg_baggins]

Bret hart, and the hart family are in the top 5 of my most respect people of all time list. They have been through so much tragedy, and at the same time help put wrestling on the map. I dont think i could carry on over the years like bret has, with the loss of so many loved ones. R.I.P... owen, stew, helen, davy boy,and the other family members I have not mentioned.

 

[heybay40]

Bret Hart is simply "The BEST there IS,the BEST there WAS, and the Best there ever WILL be" , the hart family are 1 of the greatest families in wrestling history and i (not that its worth much lol) respect the hell outta Bret Hart and his family

p.s was Bret Hart not a 5 time champion? i remember him holdin the title up with palm sayin 5 times is sweeter or sumfin like that, thats when he beat the undertaker when shawn michaels was the ref.

 

[Slim Pickns]

March 20, 1994 - Nov. 23, 1994
Hart def. Yokozuna at Mania, Hart won after Yokozuna had two matches. Lost 8 months later to Bob Backlund.

This was also Hart's second match of the night as he had already wrestled Owen.

Anyway, I respect everyones opions on this subject but I still think Hart is a huge star and was never second fiddle or champion by default. He had his style which was selling wrestling, not flashy gimmicks.

 

[Shocky]

Let's steer this conversation away from the Blackhole known as the Montreal Screwjob. Once the conversation goes there, it is hard to come back, so please stick to the topic at hand.

Yes, Bret was a 5 time WWE champion.

 

[AdamStevens]

Bret Hart has gone down in history as one of the greatest wrestlers because he was one of the greatest wrestlers. Remember that we are talking about wrestling here. When I was a kid growing up, sure it was neat to see guys like Hogan and Warrior who were huge. But to watch one of their matches made me want to turn off the TV. The only matches I have seen Hogan in that I have enjoyed were in Japan where he actually wrestled. Bret Hart was technically sound, strung moves together well to tell the story of the match. Sold moves well and made the match believeable. These huge guys couldn't(or wouldn't) pull of a wrestling move to save their lives. They certianlly could not sell a move. Wrestling is a form of art, and Bret Hart is the Picaso of wrestling.