Bret Hart is crazy to moan about Hogan in 93

[Just Do It]

Exactly what Emmet said. Bret gets such a bad rap from ill informed people, and I think the IWC just run with it, despite being factually wrong. Critical does not translate to bitter when the points are opinions (and from Bret mostly valid ones). Bret goes out of his way all the time to put young wrestlers over in interviews... and people he didn't / doesn't like on a personal level.

 

[FlairFan2003]

Ive read plenty of Hart interviews that featured very little flattering to say about anyone who he wasnt friends with. I admitt though I did not see the commentary he did on his DVD so if he was more respectfull of some of his contemporaries I apologise to any fans of his here for short changing him. Also, in fairness to him, some of the issues he had with guys like HBK & HHH were profound, and not all Brett's fault, as HBK has admitted too.

As for 1993, we have two guys (Hogan & Hart) telling very different stories and as usual Vince McMahon, the one guy who probably does know, keeping quiet. If Vince ever writes a book it will certainly be a 'must read'. Anything else is just conjecture.

 

[lowandmighty]

OK...I was watching WCW in 94-95 and I can tell you, Hogan having a brief tiff with Sting that lasted all of 5 minutes in Nov of 95 was not what lead him to get booed. Hogan had mixed reactions, at best, from the time he arrived in WCW because he was not a WCW guy, he was a WWE guy, and the WCW fans wanted Flair to go over him. It was that simple. Flair was more popular with that audience, and Hogan's act was getting stale by this time, plus older fans liked Flair more because of his work ethic and quality matches, something Hogan never matched. Still, he was a big draw, and he had fans, he just wasn't invincible to the audience anymore. That started happening as soon as he started appearing.

As far as 93 goes, Hogan really wasnt even in WWE. He was brought back to hot shot WrestleMania, then milk one more PPV out of him. It's not like Hogan had been wrestling full time and Hart was finally eclipsing him.

Would Hogan have gotten booed vs Hart...I doubt it. In WWE he was still No. 1. Hart may have gotten some cheers yes, if they were truly booked as two Fan Favs like Warrior-Hogan were, but Hogan was the bigger star with a bigger connection to that audience, he would have gotten a mostly positive reaction.

Why didn't the match take place....Who knows...Hogan's version is way different than Hart's...It is entirely plausible that Vince wanted to move on with a different champ for awhile because he didn't think business was good enough with Hart, and the plan all along was for Yoko to be the next long term champ, the whole Hogan escapade nothing more than a way to milk a few extra bucks out of Hogan's brief return. It's also possible that Hogan liked the idea of losing to Yoko more, especially in screw job fashion, because with Yoko as a heel, there would be clamoring for a re match when (if) Hogan returned. I can easily see McMahon leaning towards going with Yoko and Hogan inserting himself in, offering (or agreeing) to do the match with the screw job ending and disappear like Yoko "killed Hulka Mania", so if he came back later he'd have an instant Main Event waiting. Hart simply might not have been in the plans, no fault of his own.

I do get tired of Hart's complaints, largely because he never seems to praise anyone, he is often so negative, with very few compliments. I get that he had beefs back stage with some guys, and that in some cases they were profound. I also get that it wasn't all likely his fault. To some degree I wonder if Hart's motorcycle accident, which effectively ended any chance he could ever wrestle again, makes him bitter, especially with HHH dominating the 2000s and now running WWE, with HBK returning as a "Reformed hero" and getting a great last chapter on his career, Flair's revival, "Legend" status, and incredible WrestleMania send off, Hogan's multiple returns, final title run, and the fact he is still making money in TNA today, maybe Hart rants because he feels he deserved some of that and will never get it.

One thing I will say is that HBK has publicly, including during his retirement speech, praised Hart as a wrestler and given him much credit for his success despite their differences. Flair did the same with Dusty Rhodes. You don't hear Hart give many interviews like that.

Well I was also watching wcw around that time and was watching it even before Hogan made his first appearance and it never seemed to me that fans were on flair's side until Hogan was in the nWo and they feuded.

What I saw was half an arena of fans, and I mean literally half. The camera would shoot one side but if you were there, you saw there was nobody on the other. Then Hogan arrived and packed arenas every show full of Hulkamaniacs.

Hogans popularity plunge was definitely because of his tiff with sting, it doesn't take much.

The match where I first noticed a turn against Hogan was Hogan vs one man gang on nitro early 96 which was shortly after Hogan had wrestled sting late 95 with Hogan dressed in black. This was after tit for tat promo's between sting and Hogan which started around the time Hogan faced "The Giant" at Halloween Havoc 95'. Hogan had been accused of "turning his back" on sting, this was also a very out of the blue accusation. I put it down to water testing.

Hogans feud with dungeon of doom tanked and on top of it he wasn't friends again with sting so the crowd jeered him.
Later in 1996 Hogan reinvented himself aligning himself with Hall and Nash everyone knows the story and sting was the hero against nWo. Ever wonder how they worked that out? its obvious isn't it?

Fans were fine with Hogan and Flair being natural enemies but it turned out wcw southern hick fans held Sting in a special place in their hearts and did not take kindly to Hogan messing with their guy.

As for Bret Harts comments, I agree with everything you said, two sides to the story and everything although I tend to lean more toward Hogans version of events because I can see thats probably how it went as I know people who jump guns so to speak as Bret hart allegedly did with his ideas.

I didn't think I insinuated that Hogan was hanging around any longer than for a brief money maker at WM9 did I? It goes to show a match between hogan and Bret would've been ridiculous anyway.
It's actually lucky Hogan was there at all as Vince still had sand in his vagina about being testified against even though Hogan was legally obliged. Vince knew he had nobody else to turn to.

As far as always bitching about everything goes, In Bret Hart's defense he is on record saying Hogan is the best of all time.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

There's a few things in your post that don't add up. For example at Wrestlemania 6 I don't think Hogan did anything that night that hurt Warrior in any way (I think Hogan not relinquishing his top spot after WM 6 is what really hurt Warrior).

At Wrestlemania 18 I think he helped The Rock in that match, not hurt him. That crowd was about to eat Rock alive but by the end of the match The Rock had won the crowd over again. I remember the build to this match very well, I also remember how everyone around me was Pro Hogan when he came back to the WWE, because it's Hulk Hogan. He may have been the heel in that match but it doesn't change the fact he was our hero for so many years and the fact he was back in the house he helped build. Frankly Hogan and Rock being such good crowd manipulators is the only reason The Rock was able to get some cheers at the end of that match.

Lastly if you check out Austin's latest DVD (the bio section) he makes a point of how mad he was he didn't get to work with Hogan at WM18 and it actually played a role in him leaving 3 months later. Not sure if he said anything else before or since but I've certainly heard him say how unhappy he was at WM18 (as Austin said he needed to work with Hogan at WM18, not Scott Hall).

In regard's to Bret in '93? I think it would have done Bret a world of good having a torch passing match with Hogan and I think that not happening hurt Bret.

Honestly I doubt the reason this match didn't happen wasn't because of a Hogan powerplay. Hogan does seem to have a habit of playing the powerplay game but I think the reason this match didn't happen was because McMahon didn't think Bret was the best option on top and that's why he pushed Luger so hard in late '93-early '94. Bret was the better option but truth be told he was smaller and didn't have much personality. He was just good enough on the mic for the fans to buy into what he was doing (and his feuds) but he wasn't larger than life like Hogan.

Truth be told Luger had much more potential than Bret did as the face of the WWE, the difference is Bret realized his potential, Luger didn't and that's why Vince ultimately chose Bret over Luger but as soon as Diesel got hot Vince was quick to make him the top guy in the company over Bret because (once again) Diesel had more potential to draw than Bret did based on his size, look, and cool guy personality.

In retrospect when you look at the situation the obvious answer is "Of course Hogan should have put over Bret! Bret was the next face and Hogan should have done the job" but the problem with retrospective thinking is that's not how it works in real life, you got to make the decision based on the situation you are currently in.

In '93 Vince wasn't in the best point of his life personally or professionally, he was losing money and he's looking to turn things around. He has Bret who is a loyal, hardworking guy who can get over and is a reliable hand as a face but he also has Luger who looks like a million bucks and is oozing with the IT factor. He's not as good as Bret but he has much more potential than Bret does when it comes to being the face of the company and drawing more money. You have Hogan as champ but only for a few months as he's leaving for good, he needs to drop the title. Luger is still heel but you have plans for him as a face, Bret is the guy poised to be the face but you are unsure he's the best guy to go with, if Bret doesn't pan out then its a waste for him to beat Hogan. I may not have my top face figured out but I got my top heel figured out (Yokozuna), lets have Yoko beat Hogan, Yoko take the title then we can give Luger a trial run with Yoko to see if he's the right guy to go with for the long haul. If Luger works out we give him the title at WM 10 in a huge moment, if he doesn't we give Bret the title at WM 10 in a huge moment as we already know Bret will at least hold the fort. When you think of it from that perspective it makes a lot of sense.

Bret beating Hogan would have done so much for Bret but ultimately I think Vince went for the better option at the time. You don't want to gamble on a guy when there's another guy out there who might be able to do the job better and on paper, Luger would have done the top guy job better so why waste Hogan on a guy who may not be the next guy you're going with?

Bret would have done fine in a feud with Hogan as the crowd was pretty much done with Hogan and Bret was the new, exciting guy coming in but ultimately I think Vince taking the safe route was the way to go.

 

[Just Do It]

Lastly if you check out Austin's latest DVD (the bio section) he makes a point of how mad he was he didn't get to work with Hogan at WM18 and it actually played a role in him leaving 3 months later.

Really, I've seen this and don't remember that. What part exactly I'll go grab my DVD. Thanks!

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Really, I've seen this and don't remember that. What part exactly I'll go grab my DVD. Thanks!

So to be clear its the "Stone Cold: the bottom line of the most popular superstar of all time" DVD. It was in the part where they were discussing Wrestlemania 18 and his departure in '02 (so later in the bio). Austin was talking about Wrestlemania 18 and I think the quote he made was "no offense to Scott Hall but Hogan was who I needed to fight, not Scott Hall". That may not be an exact but its definitely said. He talked how he was feeling like he was being pushed aside at that point and the Lesnar match was the final straw.

I've heard him say that besides that dvd as well on various specials, documentaries, ect.

 

[theHeadliner]

What on Earth are you talking about, the Headliner.

1. Vince has never commented on the Bret / Hogan situation for a start.

2. Where on earth have you got this, "Just an idea Bret pitched" notion from.

I quoted someone else's post, but tried to shorten it so it took the gray away and it looked like I wrote the whole thing. I tried making the counterpoint to the person I quoted, but since I deleted some of it, it looks like I posted the whole thing. The 1st half of my post is a quote from someone else's, then I answer in the 2nd part.

 

[lowandmighty]

I quoted someone else's post, but tried to shorten it so it took the gray away and it looked like I wrote the whole thing. I tried making the counterpoint to the person I quoted, but since I deleted some of it, it looks like I posted the whole thing. The 1st half of my post is a quote from someone else's, then I answer in the 2nd part.

I'm pretty sure that was my comment. McMahon was asked about it in a tv interview about 11 or 12 years ago. It was when Hogan had become champion.
It was so long ago that I can't remember exactly who did the interview but it was like a light hearted after news sports segment and they had a guy who was a talk show host for his own show on that channel doing a special interview with Vince McMahon. They were on bar stools and there was a tv between them showing wwe footage sporadically throughout the interview.

They questioned McMahon over Hogan's age and his legitimacy of holding the belt and asked why did Hogan leave WWF in the 90's without wrestling Bret Hart and McMahon's answer was along the lines of what I wrote.
McMahon has commented. Good luck finding it though, I looked for it myself, I was in Singapore when I saw this interview but it was from another country's news so I have no idea where to find it.

I've tried all different key words but can't find it. Hand to God I saw it though, and I couldn't be the only one.

 

[Goldie]

Bret Hart should thank his lucky stars.... we all saw what Hogan did to the Ultimate Warrior at WM6 after putting the younger rising star over. Hogan stole Warriors thunder and took the attention of the crowd away from the Warrior.... and as he admits in his biography, Hogan ensured the spotlight was still on him... '60000' people watched me leave the ring... Warrior celebrated with the belt and nobody cared'.

Hogan could easily have humiliated the Hitman in similar circumstances

 

[Wald]

Few points on this.

I don't think Hogan would have been able to turn the fans against Bret in 1993. WWF fans, I was one of them, were utterly sick of Hogan by that stage. His schtick was played out and his days as top babyface were over. Bret was the guy the fans, not Vince, chose to replace him and I'm 100% sure the fans would have backed the Hitman.

That said, it wasn't a missed feud with Hogan which damaged Bret's first run, it was a lack of heel contenders. Vince should have kept Flair around longer to put over Hart at Wrestlemania before leaving, alternatively (or beside it) he should have attempted a Macho Man heel turn to feud with Bret over the title. Remember that Savage had held the belt just weeks before Hart beat Flair for it so it would be a logical storyline. You could have a face vs face match with Bret winning and Macho snapping and attacking him for the turn. That would have given you a Survivor Series and Royal Rumble title match between the two.

I actually never understand the desire to book face vs face title matches to get over a new champion. Almost never works out.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

You know what Bret Hart was missing from his first big run as the main guy in WWE? A massive match against a wrestling megastar that people would remember for decades to come.

Hogan might've get fans on his side more than that of Bret Hart, but it hardly mattered to The Rock in 2002, so it wouldn't have mattered to Bret Hart in 1993.

 

[harrythem]

Hogan might've get fans on his side more than that of Bret Hart, but it hardly mattered to The Rock in 2002, so it wouldn't have mattered to Bret Hart in 1993.

The big difference between Rock in 2002 and Hitman in 93 is that Rock was already established as one of THE guys. He was a consistent main event level talent who was already on his way towards leaving wrestling by then. I believe that Rock had the confidence and charisma to turn the fans back towards him if he'd tried (wouldn't have won them all over but would've got some cheers)

Bret in 93, as he's admitted himself, wasn't sure of himself and was new to the headline scene. He'd not really faced anybody that would put him on the map as THE guy then and, being honest, Bret didn't have that crowd working ability that Hogan, Rock, Austin, Cena, Sammartino etc have.

I do agree that it'd have been a match people were talking about still today, but, like Hogan vs Warrior, I don't think it'd have been any help to establishing Bret as you can be sure, due to Brets size and status then (new headliner) there would've been no chance of him getting a clean win over Hogan....Hell after Warrior I believe the next people to get a clean as a whistle win over Hogan were Rock, Angle & Lesnar back in 2002 (damn, Hogan did more jobs in 5 months than he did in a full 20 years)

 

[Goldie]

Hogan might've get fans on his side more than that of Bret Hart, but it hardly mattered to The Rock in 2002, so it wouldn't have mattered to Bret Hart in 1993.

At Wrestlemania 18 Hogan was supposed to be the heel and Rock the babyface.... yet Hogan was the one cheered and Rock was booed.
The reason?... Hogan sought that reaction!

Rock really shouldn't have been booed as a babyface as Mania.... this was before he was a part timer

 

[theHeadliner]

Few points on this.

I don't think Hogan would have been able to turn the fans against Bret in 1993. WWF fans, I was one of them, were utterly sick of Hogan by that stage. His schtick was played out and his days as top babyface were over. Bret was the guy the fans, not Vince, chose to replace him and I'm 100% sure the fans would have backed the Hitman.

That said, it wasn't a missed feud with Hogan which damaged Bret's first run, it was a lack of heel contenders. Vince should have kept Flair around longer to put over Hart at Wrestlemania before leaving, alternatively (or beside it) he should have attempted a Macho Man heel turn to feud with Bret over the title. Remember that Savage had held the belt just weeks before Hart beat Flair for it so it would be a logical storyline. You could have a face vs face match with Bret winning and Macho snapping and attacking him for the turn. That would have given you a Survivor Series and Royal Rumble title match between the two.

I actually never understand the desire to book face vs face title matches to get over a new champion. Almost never works out.

I thought they should have had Macho win the Rumble, turn into the psycho heel with something to prove, then put over Hart at WM. Yoko had time to grow, and the WWF needed a new fan favorite. Yoke was the next heel. He could always be in contention and from his size he was taken seriously right away.

 

[WWEWrestleFest]

Bret seems to me like he's the type of person who's always blaming others for his problems. His life didn't turn out the way he wanted it to so he has to blame someone else. For years, after the death of Owen and the way he got screwed out of the title and all of that, he put the blame on Vince McMahon and Shawn Michaels. Now that he's "made peace" with them, he blames Hogan and Bischoff.

Isn't what Hogan did to him in 93 the same thing he wanted to do to Shawn in 97?

 

[theHeadliner]

Bret seems to me like he's the type of person who's always blaming others for his problems. His life didn't turn out the way he wanted it to so he has to blame someone else. For years, after the death of Owen and the way he got screwed out of the title and all of that, he put the blame on Vince McMahon and Shawn Michaels. Now that he's "made peace" with them, he blames Hogan and Bischoff.

Isn't what Hogan did to him in 93 the same thing he wanted to do to Shawn in 97?

Also with the Shawn situation, Bret was the one who pitched the idea to Vince and Jim Ross on Vince's back deck that Bret should beat Shawn for the title at WM13, then he would put over Shawn again down the road to once and for all endorse him. Vince or Ross never agreed to that, and then Bret told Shawn about it and Shawn on a plane ride and Bret said the color drained from Shawn's face. So it was Bret's scenario and idea that he came up with, but the other parties didn't agree to it. That's all from Bret's book. So I could see where maybe Bret thought of a situation or an idea, and thought that's how it should have gone, and when it didn't he felt shafted even though the others might not have necessarily agreed to it. According to Bret's book, the next time Vince brought it up was a phone call in which he told Bret he would screw Shawn out of the title at the Thursday RAW where Shawn ended up losing his smile, and it would set up a non-title ladder grudge match at WM13. So Bret may have felt slighted even though his idea wasn't the plan.