Another Student Denied Diploma

[George Steele's Barber]

A graduation ceremony is no place for the word 'Hell'.

Separation of church and state.

 

[Slyfox696]

I'd go on a short limb and say they're a minority.

Hard to say when you're talking about a small community in Oklahoma. Surely you're aware of what small conservative communities are like.

Then they can keep their diploma.

Doesn't hurt the school, just the student.

If her grades have been posted and listed as final, meaning she's received the credits for the classes, wouldn't she have finished everything required?

No. For example, when you went to college, if all of your grades were posted, but you hadn't paid all of the balance on your account, you wouldn't get your diploma, would you? Of course you wouldn't.

In this case, the student has a discipline infraction outstanding on her transcript, and until she pays the price for her mistake, she hasn't met all requirements.

If that's the case, everything I say can be disregarded because that would be absolutely correct and she would have no real case.

Most schools do have a rule against inappropriate comments. For example, here is ours:

STUDENT BEHAVIOR

Rules of student behavior are made in the interest of safety and for the development of social courtesies. All students are ex-pected to obey the rules and regulations adopted by the school.

Definition of Terms:
Level I
Talking without permission
Leaving without permission
Yelling
Running in building
Vandalism
LEVEL II
Cheating
Refusing to do assignments
Roughhousing, pushing, shoving
Cursing/inappropriate language

There's more, but that's what you need.

I get that and agree with it to an extent. My point is that this is excessive punishment for a slip of the tongue which may not have even broken an official rule. Assuming there is no rule about profanity, all she did was as an adult, say something that isn't illegal and she's being punished because someone didn't like it. To require a written apology for something like that is unfair and going overboard with the punishment in my eyes.

Why? It's not like they are asking for money, nor for her to go to summer school or spend an afternoon in detention. All they are asking is for a written apology which, for all we know, could be as simple as I posted earlier. Is that really unreasonable?

Assuming it wasn't a student, I have no sympathy for someone in the audience. It wasn't about them. That ceremony was for the students.

Yes and no. Theoretically the ceremony is for the students, but in actuality, it's not. It's also for the parents and grandparents, who guided those students along the way. It's for the teachers, who taught the students the things they learned along the way. It's for the community members who supported the students in her various endeavors, both financially and emotionally.

It's not just for the student.

 

[klunderbunker]

Hard to say when you're talking about a small community in Oklahoma. Surely you're aware of what small conservative communities are like.

And I'm sure you're aware of my thoughts on many conservatives.

Doesn't hurt the school, just the student.

To a small extent I guess, but she's got a full ride to a university already so I wouldn't think it makes a difference.

No. For example, when you went to college, if all of your grades were posted, but you hadn't paid all of the balance on your account, you wouldn't get your diploma, would you? Of course you wouldn't.

I walked at graduation and got my diploma from UK before my grades were posted and before I had all the credits the right way actually. I needed at least a D in a class to graduate and the grades were posted two days after the ceremony. Also about 6 weeks after graduation I was told my grades were incomplete and had to petition the university to change a grade from pass/fail to standard grading.

In this case, the student has a discipline infraction outstanding on her transcript, and until she pays the price for her mistake, she hasn't met all requirements.

Assuming that's an official rule, which it may or may not be. Again we get to the heart of our disagreement: I think her slip of the tongue is being blown way out of proportion and while the school may have the authority to do this, there's no reason for them to other than their skin is thinner than a piece of silk.

Why? It's not like they are asking for money, nor for her to go to summer school or spend an afternoon in detention. All they are asking is for a written apology which, for all we know, could be as simple as I posted earlier. Is that really unreasonable?

Yes, I believe it is, given what was said. If she had gone into a profanity laden tirade and blasted the faculty and school, I'd be in complete agreement with you. For saying a single word like this, and given that she has done the school well and been literally the best student in her class, I think it's completely unreasonable.

Yes and no. Theoretically the ceremony is for the students, but in actuality, it's not. It's also for the parents and grandparents, who guided those students along the way. It's for the teachers, who taught the students the things they learned along the way. It's for the community members who supported the students in her various endeavors, both financially and emotionally.

It's not just for the student.

This is a debate that I get into with my father every year at GRC's (high school of my hometown) graduation. The ceremony is held on the football field and there's a tradition of the students sneaking in beach balls and batting them over their heads until a teacher stops them, usually to a chorus of boos. My dad takes the position you do and I disagree with him. Note that I'm not saying you're wrong at all as it makes sense, but I disagree for the most part. If the students are ok with what she said, to me that's all that matters. If someone's grandmother or aunt or whatever filed a complaint because of a single word, I don't think that's a ground for delaying something she's already earned with the best results in the school.

 

[Harthan]

KB, don't you get it?

She said a swear.

Jesus always said not to swear. Somewhere in the Bible, I guess. I promise it's in there. Maybe.

 

[Slyfox696]

And I'm sure you're aware of my thoughts on many conservatives.

I'm not talking Republicans, I'm talking conservative community. Think Mayberry, North Carolina, not North Carolina passing amendments banning gay marriage.

To a small extent I guess, but she's got a full ride to a university already so I wouldn't think it makes a difference.

Then I guess it's a non-issue. Except for the girl, who is the one bringing it up.

I walked at graduation and got my diploma from UK before my grades were posted and before I had all the credits the right way actually. I needed at least a D in a class to graduate and the grades were posted two days after the ceremony. Also about 6 weeks after graduation I was told my grades were incomplete and had to petition the university to change a grade from pass/fail to standard grading.

If you hadn't successfully appealed your grade, you wouldn't be recognized as graduating from UK. When you walked, I'm guessing you didn't receive your actual diploma, just a placeholder until they could mail you your diploma. That's how most colleges do it, I believe.

Assuming that's an official rule, which it may or may not be.

I know I read somewhere they have some rule about inappropriate language. I'm trying to find it now.

Again we get to the heart of our disagreement: I think her slip of the tongue is being blown way out of proportion and while the school may have the authority to do this, there's no reason for them to other than their skin is thinner than a piece of silk.

I'm not saying it's what I would have done, I'm just saying it's what this school has done, and for her to be so indignant over the fact she made a mistake, which she freely admits, is a sign of immaturity.

She messed up, no one disputes this. Pay your price and move on.

This is a debate that I get into with my father every year at GRC's (high school of my hometown) graduation. The ceremony is held on the football field and there's a tradition of the students sneaking in beach balls and batting them over their heads until a teacher stops them, usually to a chorus of boos. My dad takes the position you do and I disagree with him. Note that I'm not saying you're wrong at all as it makes sense, but I disagree for the most part. If the students are ok with what she said, to me that's all that matters. If someone's grandmother or aunt or whatever filed a complaint because of a single word, I don't think that's a ground for delaying something she's already earned with the best results in the school.

I used to think graduation was for students too, but as I've gotten older, and as I've worked in the schools, I can see that it's not really just for students. It's a perspective you can only really appreciate when you see how much time and effort goes into each student graduating.

 

[klunderbunker]

I'm not talking Republicans, I'm talking conservative community. Think Mayberry, North Carolina, not North Carolina passing amendments banning gay marriage.

I knew what you meant. Oklahoma is the state that banned Sharia law so that the Muslims can't take over.

And as I brace for the red rep, I'll say I've never seen an episode of Andy Griffith.

Then I guess it's a non-issue. Except for the girl, who is the one bringing it up.

Based on the video and article in the link, it seems it's her dad far more than her.

If you hadn't successfully appealed your grade, you wouldn't be recognized as graduating from UK. When you walked, I'm guessing you didn't receive your actual diploma, just a placeholder until they could mail you your diploma. That's how most colleges do it, I believe.

Honest truth: it was a placeholder that said (direct quote): "We wish the best in all of your future endeavors."

I know I read somewhere they have some rule about inappropriate language. I'm trying to find it now.

If that's the case, I likely won't reply to most of what you say because a lot of my argument won't mean a thing. At the end of the day though, it's probably a rule they could overlook.

I'm not saying it's what I would have done, I'm just saying it's what this school has done, and for her to be so indignant over the fact she made a mistake, which she freely admits, is a sign of immaturity.

I don't know if I'd say immaturity. If anyone is being immature here, I would think it's the school. Well, they're being petty at least.

I used to think graduation was for students too, but as I've gotten older, and as I've worked in the schools, I can see that it's not really just for students. It's a perspective you can only really appreciate when you see how much time and effort goes into each student graduating.

This past year I went to my cousin's graduation. He has a form of autism and until he was about 13 he could barely function in society. Thankfully they found a treatment that literally changed him overnight, but he had a lot of catching up to do. That being said, I still would think the people who complained need to get over it.

 

[Slyfox696]

And as I brace for the red rep, I'll say I've never seen an episode of Andy Griffith.

No wonder you are the way that you are.

Honest truth: it was a placeholder that said (direct quote): "We wish the best in all of your future endeavors."

If that's the case, I likely won't reply to most of what you say because a lot of my argument won't mean a thing. At the end of the day though, it's probably a rule they could overlook.

I read it on some website covering the story. I'm looking at what I believe is their 2012-2013 Handbook and can't find that specifically. Here's what I can find so far.

Prague students will demonstrate that they are:
1. COOPERATIVE/COLLABORATIVE WORKERS WHO:
a. Exhibit consideration and respect for themselves, the job and others
b. Accept group decisions
c. Find and solve problems collectively
d. Contribute time, energy, and personal thoughts to the group effort
2. QUALITY PRODUCERS WHO:
a. Portray dedication and pride in their accomplishments
b. Know personal potential and limits
c. Apply the best possible resources, technologies and organizational strategies
d. Maintain high standards of performance and production
3. EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATORS WHO:
a. Convey their thoughts, competencies, and feelings to others through a variety of methods such as writing, speaking, etc.
b. Receive and react appropriately to the expressed thoughts, competencies, and feelings of others.
4. RESPONSIBLE/PRODUCTIVE CITIZENS WHO:
a. Demonstrate integrity
b. Develop an appreciation of our government, civic responsibility and willingness to work in the community
c. Handle money effectively
d. Exhibit leadership qualities
5. CRITICAL THINKERS AND PROBLEM SOLVERS WHO:
a. Identify, access, integrate and utilize available resources, technology and information to reason, make decisions and solve complex problems
b. Initiate innovative solutions
6. SELF-DIRECTED/LIFE-LONG LEARNERS WHO:
a. Establish long and short-term goals
b. Develop and implement plans based on self-reflection for self-improvement for ongoing learning
7. SELF-CONFIDENT PERSONS WHO:
a. Demonstrate a high self-esteem
b. Maintain a positive self-image

http://www.prague.k12.ok.us/userFiles/90/agenda_handbook_2012-2013.pdf

That's what I found in their handbook. On a side note, their webpage is fucking horrendous. I almost want to create one for them, just because it's so bad.

I don't know if I'd say immaturity. If anyone is being immature here, I would think it's the school. Well, they're being petty at least.

If you let this girl say it this year, what's to stop next year's valedictorian from saying it? It's immature. The mature thing would be say, "I know I made a mistake and I'm sorry". Like I said, no one is disputing she made a mistake.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

They're being childish, but maybe you shouldn't curse during your speech. It's pretty fucking simple - do what you're told

 

[klunderbunker]

If you let this girl say it this year, what's to stop next year's valedictorian from saying it? It's immature. The mature thing would be say, "I know I made a mistake and I'm sorry". Like I said, no one is disputing she made a mistake.

If the next valedictorian does, so what? That's my whole summary: it's really not a big enough deal for a need for a written apology.

 

[Slyfox696]

If the next valedictorian does, so what? That's my whole summary: it's really not a big enough deal for a need for a written apology.

It's obviously not something the school wants at its graduation. The school has the right to insist on a proper protocol for their graduation.

 

[klunderbunker]

It's obviously not something the school wants at its graduation. The school has the right to insist on a proper protocol for their graduation.

Yes it does, and people like me have the right to look at them and do a Miz impression.

 

[The Brain]

Damn people just love to make a big deal out of nothing. Both parties are guilty of that here. Just write the damn apology and get on with your life. The very first thing the news anchor says is the girl is fighting to get her diploma. It's a fight that could be easily won. Write a two sentence apology and get the diploma. We don't have to turn every little thing into a big battle of principle. What would it cost her to write the apology? One minute of her time. Small price to pay.

 

[One Punch Doug Crashin]

The only one making a big deal about it is the school who obviously has sand in their vaginas.

 

[Slyfox696]

The only one making a big deal about it is the school who obviously has sand in their vaginas.

I'm pretty certain it wasn't the school who contacted the national media. Since, you know, they're not saying anything about the subject.

Try again.

 

[One Punch Doug Crashin]

I'm pretty certain it wasn't the school who contacted the national media. Since, you know, they're not saying anything about the subject.

Try again.

I guess the same could be said about the kid so .

 

[Slyfox696]

I guess the same could be said about the kid so .

How does that support your initial statement of "The only one making a big deal about it is the school"?

You do remember your initial comment I replied to, correct? As I said before, try again.

 

[Danger Burger]

How does that support your initial statement of "The only one making a big deal about it is the school"?

You do remember your initial comment I replied to, correct? As I said before, try again.

He doesnt really want you to try again, its a trap....

 

[Lowdown]

The whole thing has been blown up. She's going to college, and it would be cool to actually have your diploma. I still say its an overreaction by the school, but its their prerogative to hold her diploma. But it might be fruitless in trying to get that apology.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

She's valedictorian so I'm sure her diploma means something to her. I lost my high school diploma but when you have your college degree its something you don't give much of a shit about.

 

[shattered dreams]

Sly, can you show me in their rules where protocol is to wait months after a rule is broken to attempt to punish someone? Can you explain how their rules apply to someone who isn't a student there? Can you show me that this is what the rules dictate the punishment should be or has been in the past? Do you really expect me to believe that everyone that has said the word hell in that school is subjected to something like this? Give me a break. The existence of a language clause does not mean the punishment offered up is just either.

 

[Slyfox696]

Sly, can you show me in their rules where protocol is to wait months after a rule is broken to attempt to punish someone?

I doubt it, but I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

The much better question to ask is "Is there a rule which states no punishment can be enacted after a certain amount of time from the moment of the incident". Since I sincerely doubt such a rule exists (for a variety of reasons), I don't believe you're making a legitimate point here.

Can you explain how their rules apply to someone who isn't a student there?

Uhh, all schools have rules which apply to people who are not students there. For example, our school has a rule that you are not allowed to bring footballs to a football game to play your own pickup games. Any person, including children who do not attend our school, who plays a pickup game of football is instructed to stop, and if they continue their pickup game, their football is confiscated. Or, if you are a parent at a sporting event, and you are using foul/abusive language towards a player, coach, referee or even another fan, you are made to leave.

Schools create rules all the time which apply to someone who isn't a student. But, at the time of her infraction, she WAS a student there, so you don't really have a valid statement here either.

Can you show me that this is what the rules dictate the punishment should be or has been in the past?

Every situation is different. Anyone who has to give discipline on a regular basis knows that each individual situation is unique, needs to be treated as unique and may require different punishment.

Again, your statement is rendered invalid.

Do you really expect me to believe that everyone that has said the word hell in that school is subjected to something like this?

I have no idea what other punishments for students are, and I really could not care less what you believe.

What I DO know is that the punishment for saying "hell", after submitting a speech which did not include it, in front of a graduation assembly during the 2011-2012 graduation ceremony at Prague high school is a written letter of apology. And that's really all that matters.

Give me a break.

Given the fact your entire post was fairly narrow-minded, I suggest you taking a break might be good for you.

The existence of a language clause does not mean the punishment offered up is just either.

Here's what I don't understand. No one, not even her or her father, disputes she made a mistake. Why is the idea of paying the consequences for her mistake such a ghastly concept to you and others? It's not like the school is permanently denying her diploma. It's not like the school failed her or told her she had to spend 4 weeks cleaning bathrooms. All they said is they want a letter of apology for making comments which obviously offended someone.

Given the fact EVERYONE agrees she made a mistake, is it really so much to ask for the young adult to apologize for her mistake?

 

[Richard Blonoff]

When I graduated back in '08....makes me feel old, I gave a speech. I said "No matter where you go in life don't let the bastards keep you down." Principal didn't like it.

Now I had gotten an okay on this from my public speaking teacher, who got the okay for me to give a speech. The issue was that she didn't get an okay on me actually saying bastard. The principal pulled me aside after my speech and said "Give me one good reason to give you your diploma." I explained the situation to him and he said to see him after the ceremony. He gave a big speech about how it was disrespectful and if he could he would not have let me walk with my class if he knew I was going to say that.

He had a point about the disrespect. While I personally feel it was a non issue, he was a very old school guy and I could see where he was coming from. I knew I would likely never see him again so I simply apologized to him and made it a non issue. I can see why the girl would be reluctant to apologize, and I would probably side with her if I knew her, but is it really a big deal to write a quick little apology? It doesn't even have to be sincere. I'm all for standing by your values, but this is a fight that isn't worth it.

 

[Барбоса]

On a side note, their webpage is fucking horrendous. I almost want to create one for them, just because it's so bad.

Virtually all of the American education websites I have been to (all of which are universities) have been either heavily sub par or fucking awful.

Navigating around some of them can be absolutely diabolical.

 

[shattered dreams]

I doubt it, but I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

The simple version, I will dumb it down so maybe you will quit playing stupid, is that if all the school wanted was an apology, why wait so long to ask for it? Makes me wonder if they really care much about the apology opposed to say exerting their authority.

The much better question to ask is "Is there a rule which states no punishment can be enacted after a certain amount of time from the moment of the incident". Since I sincerely doubt such a rule exists (for a variety of reasons), I don't believe you're making a legitimate point here.

Disagree and I think you have missed the point. You seem to continually be pointing out that the school can "discipline" her. I don't think anyone is disputing that seeing as they still have the diploma. The question is how reasonable this all is. The existence of a rule alone does not make an action reasonable. I think even you would concede this is a relative minor offense and as such I don't find it very reasonable to take so long in bringing it up. If a cop came up to you tomorrow and told you that he was going to cite you for jaywalking 3 months ago I suspect you might find that unreasonable.

Uhh, all schools have rules which apply to people who are not students there. For example, our school has a rule that you are not allowed to bring footballs to a football game to play your own pickup games. Any person, including children who do not attend our school, who plays a pickup game of football is instructed to stop, and if they continue their pickup game, their football is confiscated. Or, if you are a parent at a sporting event, and you are using foul/abusive language towards a player, coach, referee or even another fan, you are made to leave.

Schools create rules all the time which apply to someone who isn't a student. But, at the time of her infraction, she WAS a student there, so you don't really have a valid statement here either.

That is true but it only works on the schools grounds or at their events. Your school can't punish someone for cussing at a wal-mart for example. Now the graduation is a school event but it is clear that they have no other recourse since this student has passed beyond their control. Instead of accepting that they are clinging to that last bit of control. It is at least as petty as the girl not wanting to apologize.

Every situation is different. Anyone who has to give discipline on a regular basis knows that each individual situation is unique, needs to be treated as unique and may require different punishment.

Then why are you arguing so heavily in the favor of blindly following the rules then? Why is only the punishment open to interpretation but the rules are absolute?

What I DO know is that the punishment for saying "hell", after submitting a speech which did not include it, in front of a graduation assembly during the 2011-2012 graduation ceremony at Prague high school is a written letter of apology. And that's really all that matters.

How is that all that matters? Whatever they chose is absolutely right? That is nonsense. The idea is justifying their decision. If they have in the past dealt with the type of situation differently then that is relevant.

Here's what I don't understand. No one, not even her or her father, disputes she made a mistake. Why is the idea of paying the consequences for her mistake such a ghastly concept to you and others? It's not like the school is permanently denying her diploma. It's not like the school failed her or told her she had to spend 4 weeks cleaning bathrooms. All they said is they want a letter of apology for making comments which obviously offended someone.

Why does the school get all the benefit of the doubt? It isn't like the girl said fuck the adminstration etc. etc. if you want to engage in the hyperbole game. Why is it so hard to just give her the diploma? Why is it so hard to mention the supposed issue and requisite punishment beforehand? I don't blame her for not going for their stronghanded bullshit. What exactly is this letter of apology all about anyway and where is it going? Why should she let the school embarrass her over this trivial event? Forced apologies are kid shit and this girl isn't a kid anymore. I imagine if they had treated her like an adult at the time of the event she would have given an apology of the type you are seeking that was actually real and of her own volition, instead of this forced nonsense.

 

[Slyfox696]

Virtually all of the American education websites I have been to (all of which are universities) have been either heavily sub par or fucking awful.

Navigating around some of them can be absolutely diabolical.

I run the website single-handedly for our school, and I can tell you it blows their website completely out of the water.

The simple version, I will dumb it down so maybe you will quit playing stupid, is that if all the school wanted was an apology, why wait so long to ask for it? Makes me wonder if they really care much about the apology opposed to say exerting their authority.

I'm curious why you feel the need to "dumb" something down that has no relevance to this discussion at all. Furthermore, how does waiting to hand out the punishment exert their authority anymore than assigning punishment immediately? I don't believe you've thought this through very well.

But, fortunately for you, I can answer your question, in a way that a very small percentage of people could. To do so, I'll use the school district I work at as an example, as I am unfamiliar how schools in Oklahoma operate. But since all you're asking for is a hypothetical, this will suffice.

A school administration hierarchy is made up of three levels. At the very top you have the district Board of Education. The next level is the Superintendent, although if you have a wise enough Board of Education, the board will usually defer to the expertise and experience of the Superintendent. The last level are the principals.

The Board of Education meets the third Wednesday of every month. This means the May board meeting was on May 16th. Graduation was on May 20th. So by the time we had graduation, the board had already met for the month. With all of this in mind, let's proceed as if this happened at my school.

On May 20th, this girl made the inappropriate comment. Let's say the next day a couple of community members call people on the board of education and tell them how offended they were at the young lady's comments. The board members promise to bring it up at the next board meeting, to see what can be done. The next board meeting, of course, would be June 20th.

June 20th comes around, and the board meets and demands the administration punish the girl for her comments. Since the Board of Education are the top rung of the ladder, the administration agrees to do so. An issue such as the discipline of a child, unless the infraction is of a very serious nature, is almost always handled by the principal. However, the principals do not work year around. Their schedule starts on the 1st day of August and ends either on the last day of summer school in June (which was June 19th), or very soon after. Of course, principals still have to attend board meetings, but other than that, they get to spend time with the families they rarely are allowed to see.

Let's give the girl the benefit of the doubt and say the principals worked until June 27th, a full week after the board meeting. Do you have any evidence the school did not try to contact the family ahead of time? Nothing I have seen denies this, and because the school district is bound by the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA), they cannot say ANYTHING regarding the discipline of a child, for the sake of student privacy. So for all we know, the school very well could have tried to call home and get the child to come in (assuming the board actually demanded action in the June meeting, and not the July one). However, because the family doesn't want to talk to the school, or because they don't answer calls from phone numbers they don't recognize, or because they were on vacation, no communication is had. Now it's time for the principal to go on vacation.

So the principal takes his/her vacation and when they get back in August, they know they will be seeing the young woman soon anyways, so the school just figures they will wait until she goes to get her diploma. When she does, then she is informed.

All of this, of course, occurs under the belief this child was NOT told ahead of time she could not say this word. For all we know, and what I suspect, is that when this girl turned in her speech to the school for approval, it actually contained the word hell. The administration read it and told her she needed to change it. After protesting against the change, the child eventually agreed to say "heck", but when it came time for her speech, she said "hell", which had earlier been forbidden.

It's not like the family will admit this, especially not if they are being spiteful and vindictive (as tends to happen when certain people are told no), and the school cannot come out and confirm or deny any story that has a tie to the girl, due to the federal FERPA law.


Now, initially, I wanted to insult you and call you stupid, but then I realized that, given the job that I do and the family that I'm in, I probably have insight most others would not, especially with regard to how administrative scheduling works. Do I KNOW this is what happened? No, but you asked for a reason why they would have waited so long, and my rather lengthy explanation is a perfect explanation on how it could have happened, due only to circumstance and through no fault of either the school or child.

Disagree and I think you have missed the point. You seem to continually be pointing out that the school can "discipline" her. I don't think anyone is disputing that seeing as they still have the diploma. The question is how reasonable this all is. The existence of a rule alone does not make an action reasonable. I think even you would concede this is a relative minor offense and as such I don't find it very reasonable to take so long in bringing it up.

A school punishes for violations all the time. As far as punishments go, I don't think a school can give a much lighter punishment than a letter of apology.

And again, I ask you, what is unreasonable about atoning for a mistake?

If a cop came up to you tomorrow and told you that he was going to cite you for jaywalking 3 months ago I suspect you might find that unreasonable.

You keep bringing up time. Time is irrelevant to this discussion and whether the school's response to her violation is reasonable. You may say you don't like how long it took for her to be notified, but that doesn't change the argument in either direction on whether the school should punish her for her comments.

Time does not matter. Either her offense was punishable or it wasn't. The school obviously felt it was.

That is true but it only works on the schools grounds or at their events. Your school can't punish someone for cussing at a wal-mart for example.

Not true actually. Laws on this vary from state to state, but for example, in Missouri, if a child posts a threatening or harassing comment online, let's say on Facebook, about another student or a teacher, the school district is granted power under state law to discipline that child.

So, you're wrong on this. Again, I'm going to not insult you for not knowing this, as it probably is not something I would have known if not for the job and family that I'm in.

Now the graduation is a school event but it is clear that they have no other recourse since this student has passed beyond their control. Instead of accepting that they are clinging to that last bit of control. It is at least as petty as the girl not wanting to apologize.

If you're looking at the school as a single entity, I agree the school should have maybe just given her a stern lecture when she came to pick up the diploma. But rarely is a school, especially in a smaller community where everyone knows everybody, that simple. The school district I work in is roughly the same size as the one in this story, judging from the enrollment number they have on their school website. And I can tell you, from first hand knowledge and experience, a school is not that simple.

I don't find the word to be offensive. If I had unilateral control, I wouldn't have punished her, aside from a brief "talking to". But I'm not in control of that district, and obviously someone who is, whether it be a member of a local board of education or the principal or whomever, took offense to her words.

And at the end of the day, this NEVER had to be a big deal. The girl simply could have written a brief apology, and everything could have been finalized in less than an hour. I'd even be willing to bet the principal would have allowed her use of their computer lab to do it.

But this girl and her parents made this into a bigger issue than it had to be, by refusing to do a rather simple request (regardless of whether you think the school should have punished, it WAS a simple request) and have now made it into a national story. After dealing with many students/parents over the years, as well as knowing what family members of mine (including two who have been/are Superintendents) have dealt with, my gut reaction is this family is less than the model image they are portraying themselves as being. I can't prove that, but I suspect any father who runs to the national media to cry victim when it was his daughter who made the mistake in the first place, probably isn't the most accommodating person in the world.

Then why are you arguing so heavily in the favor of blindly following the rules then? Why is only the punishment open to interpretation but the rules are absolute?

Because if rules are not enforced, they hold no authority. This is a pretty simple concept, one I'm sure you'll understand if you think about it.

If our laws said that murdering another human being is against the law, and then never prosecuted any body who committed a murder, what good is the law? A rule only has power if it's enforced, and most rules are put into place for good reasons. And a rule against inappropriate language is a good rule put into place for a good reason. Does "hell" carry the same level of inappropriateness as "fuck"? Of course not, but it still is a violation. If the girl had said "fuck" three times in her speech, she wouldn't have gotten to finish her speech, and her punishment would have been much more severe. She broke the same rule, but since "fuck" and "hell" are two different situations, they carry different punishments. Or if this girl was in the middle of a soccer practice and said "hell", it might have earned her a few laps around the track, but since she said it in front of a large assembly, the punishment is a letter.

Rules are only effective if they are enforced, but the punishment for breaking the rule does not have to be uniform. They can be adapted to individual situations, and they should be.

How is that all that matters?

Because we're not talking about a student who said "fuck" or a soccer player who said "hell" on the practice field. We're talking about a girl who said "hell", intentionally or not, in front of a large assembly at graduation. It's all that matters because we're not talking about any other student at any other time. We're talking about THIS student at THIS time, and a written letter is the punishment for her offense.

Whatever they chose is absolutely right? That is nonsense. The idea is justifying their decision. If they have in the past dealt with the type of situation differently then that is relevant.

No it isn't. Are you telling me that your history on the forums is the same as someone who signed up yesterday? If it came across our Board Room that someone had an account which shared the same IP address as yours, do you think we'd ban both of you at the same speed we'd ban another poster who had been here for 24 hours and already was serving a one week ban? Of course not, we would take more time to investigate, and likely find it was a complete coincidence. We know you have been here for a long time, and while you've had your run-ins with the Staff, we've never seen anything to suggest you have ever created an alternate account. Your situation is different from another's.

What happened to another student is irrelevant towards what happens to this student. Maybe the past student who said hell had a history of suspensions, vandalism, etc. and this was the first time this valedictorian had ever done anything punishable by the administration. Should the school have enacted the same punishment for the first time offender as they did for the repeat offender who also said hell one time? Of course not.

Each situation is different and unique, and the idea of "one punishment fits all" is simply not a reasonable position.

Why does the school get all the benefit of the doubt?

...this is just a shot in the dark, but because everyone who attended graduation heard this girl say it?

It isn't like the girl said fuck the adminstration etc. etc. if you want to engage in the hyperbole game.

No, but she did say something the school decided to punish her for.

Why is it so hard to just give her the diploma?

As I've said already in this post, situations are rarely as simple as you're making them seem, and we likely don't know the entire story, because federal law prevents the school from explaining their side.

But, even if we are to assume everything that has been reported is completely true, the school is still within their rights to enforce the rules of their district. As I have also said, it's not how I personally would have handled it, but it's not my call. Especially since I don't know all the information in this story.

Why is it so hard to mention the supposed issue and requisite punishment beforehand?

To answer your question, I issue a challenge.

I want you to think of EVERY possible offense a student might make and create a punishment for it. I want separate offenses for each swear word as well as separate punishments. If you wish to be even more realistic, include the number of previous relevant offenses and elevate the punishments for subsequent offenses. As you do so, please include differences in infraction severity for different classes, different age levels, as well as different types of course work. After all, I think we both agree that cheating on a homework worksheet is less severe than cheating on a final exam.

So please write me a rule book, complete with all punishments for violations and subsequent violations.







Do you see why your comment is unreasonable? A school cannot possibly do what your asking. Every year, we have student (and sometimes teacher) issues that our Superintendent, who has been Superintendent for 10 years, after 5 years of being principal and many years of being a teacher have never encountered. It is simply unreasonable to ask ANY entity, whether it's school or a business or whatever, to try and imagine every single possible nuance of a scenario and write out a punishment for it.

What exactly is this letter of apology all about anyway and where is it going? Why should she let the school embarrass her over this trivial event?

The school wouldn't be embarrassing her. As I've already mentioned, FERPA guarantees a student's privacy. The school could not release a statement in the newspaper, complete with her written apology. The apology could be shared with any person employed or who governs the district. And board of education members could tell constituents/concerned citizens that the problem has been handled.

That's what it is all about and that's as far as it would go.

Forced apologies are kid shit and this girl isn't a kid anymore.

I disagree completely.

It's not the apology itself which is what is important. It's the reinforcement of the idea that mistakes happen, and if they do, you have to be mature, own up to the mistake and accept the consequence of that mistake. That's not "kid shit", that's something a lot more adults could stand to learn.