a letter to Vince on the topic of tag wrestling

[tLight]

Dear Vince,
I understand that you wanted to do something big, something special, and something the pump the ratings up for the 10th anniversary of Smackdown, but an 8-man Tag match? Really this was your big idea? You've done such a poor job of booking this division you had to combine the two titles in order to make room for them on the card. (An idea I thought of 5 years ago) You took your best working(Jericho), and someone who's been incorrectly booked for most of his WWE career (Big Show) to try and save tag wrestling.

Can we please discuss first how you can barely make a regular tag team division work properly? We all know you are not high on tag team wrestling, and you love to break up teams early just to feud them, and why you do this? We still do not know, and were pretty sure you don't either. Although the division has seen vast improvements over the past few months you have made a strong effort to rebuild the division, we all know it wont last.

Legacy will only last so long before you turn one of them face against the other (Ted goes face on Cody and Orton) Hopefully Ted and Cody turn face as a tag team, turning on Orton and working a program with him

DX needed to never rejoin forces, it wasn't entertaining last item, and its not entertaining now.

Jeri-Show will go like every other tag team, they'll break up to feud with each other (too bad its not Jericho and Edge, because that program will be worth watching) but hopefully once Edge returns him and Jericho will pick up a nice feud.

As far as the other tag teams you have Cryme Tyme, the Hart Dynasty, Jackson and Kozlov, and um..... ..... .... yeah that about does it. Cryme Tyme is on the second WWE run, and have never held the tag titles, the Hart Dynasty has done nothing but job to Cryme Tyme since moving to Smackdown, and your other Tag Team is on the C-show, and don't stand a chance of seeing a PPV match, let alone the Tag Champs visit ECW.

MVP and WSM was a good idea, but how long until you turn one on the other?

You've also paired up Batista and Rey (the worst two WWE superstars IMO) again to bore the life out of anyone who likes wrestling, or enjoys tag teams (Wait does anyone really like tag wrestling?)

Back to the topic on hand. And 8 man tag? Really these are big events? You also want to base an entire upcoming PPV on Tag Wrestling? or possibly have another Raw vs Smackdown vs ECW 8-10 man tag match at Survivor Series? Please reconsider this, because these matches suck and need to stop taking place until you can get the two on two tag match formula fixed.

 

[rayisawesomeness]

Again with these topics? Rants about tag team wrestling and the bad booking are as old as "Cena can't wrestle" and "Hornswoggle is so annoying" topics. With that aside, let's move on to your post... I definitely agree what you said about DX because personally, with the WWE being PG now, they can't do much and they're jokes just aren't very funny anymore. However, I do not agree what you said about 'Tista and Rey Rey. I find them to be an interesting tag team and in my opinion, they have great chemistry. And teaming them up right now is smart, they can win the titles at HITC and finally, Batista can turn heel by attacking Rey Rey to set up a huge match at 'Mania. I'd love to see it, anyone else?

 

[And I'm Awesome]

OK, I wanna break this down bit by bit and add my two cents...and hopefully not piss anyone off on the way.

Dear Vince,

Always good to start off with the proper salutations...

I understand that you wanted to do something big, something special, and something the pump the ratings up for the 10th anniversary of Smackdown, but an 8-man Tag match? Really this was your big idea?

Well, this one I can partially understand from Vince's side of things. 10 years is a big deal, and you want to pack as many of your top drawing guys onto the card as possible. Unfortunately, the way things are now, we have more current ME talent on RAW than SmackDown! Not wanting to give us 'Taker vs. Punk two nights prior to a PPV wherein they shall beat the living hell out of each other in a Cell, he pretty much had to go with some sort of Tag Team arrangement. As soon as that was apparent, John and DX would get involved, and you need Randy & Legacy to balance Superman and Old Guys.

You've done such a poor job of booking this division you had to combine the two titles in order to make room for them on the card. (An idea I thought of 5 years ago) You took your best working(Jericho), and someone who's been incorrectly booked for most of his WWE career (Big Show) to try and save tag wrestling.

The combining made sense, and should have been done years ago. I only came back to WWE (and wrestling, period) this past January, but even I know Vince's...disdain? for the Tag Team division. Now, originally, it was to be Rated Y2J, not Jerishow. This would keep Edge out of the WHC picture for a while, and allow two vets of the business to raise the prestige of the Tag Titles while working with and helping younger talent improve.

As to the Big Show...quite frankly, this team probably saved him from US Division Purgatory for the summer and fall. With Show being booked properly right now, he is a scary thing to behold. The decision to add Show in when Edge went down wound up being, in my estimation, the correct move...both for Show, and for the Tag Division, because it allows for more dynamic teams in general (i.e. a power guy & a flyer, as opposed to two "normal" guys.) This is opposed to teams such as the Hardyz (both flyers), or the Dudley Boyz (both brawlers).

Can we please discuss first how you can barely make a regular tag team division work properly? We all know you are not high on tag team wrestling, and you love to break up teams early just to feud them, and why you do this? We still do not know, and were pretty sure you don't either.

Yeah, Vince's propensity for splitting teams into feuds is well known, and over-used. Unfortunately, it is something to which we've become conditioned and know that we'll be seeing it, it's simply a question of when. Some amicable splits would be nice. After all, nothing wrong with splitting up to pursue single's gold.

Although the division has seen vast improvements over the past few months you have made a strong effort to rebuild the division, we all know it wont last.

I agree that the Tag Division has seen vast improvement in the past few months. As to it lasting...that depends on how long Vince decides he wants to push this thing. You'll know it's game over when they decide to split the titles again.

Legacy will only last so long before you turn one of them face against the other (Ted goes face on Cody and Orton) Hopefully Ted and Cody turn face as a tag team, turning on Orton and working a program with him

It'd be nice to have these two stay together for a while. They work very well with each other and their chemistry both in the ring and on the mic is getting better every week. Just because Ted needs to go face for the movie release in a few months doesn't mean Cody can't go with him. Why not keep these guys together, turn them both, and have them work against a heel Cena and Orton (yeah, I said it). Ultimately, split them in the Draft, and have them part amicably. Then, they can focus on the midcard titles shortly after the draft to establish themselves as legit singles players on their respective show.

DX needed to never rejoin forces, it wasn't entertaining last item, and its not entertaining now.

I have no problem with the Triple H/HBK team, it's the idea of DX that needs to die. So far, they haven't tried too much of the potty humor and general sophomoric humor that they used in the 90's and other incarnations since. Anytime those two team up, it'll be billed as DX. They'll have the music, the same spiel, the crotch chops, and will still tell people to suck it. So long as that's the extent, and they are otherwise serious, I have no problems with this teaming. However, I do respect the opinions of the people that have had to deal with the umpteen incarnations of DX. Remember, I just came back in January after not watching since around the start of the Invasion. So for me, this is the first DX reunion I've seen.

Jeri-Show will go like every other tag team, they'll break up to feud with each other (too bad its not Jericho and Edge, because that program will be worth watching) but hopefully once Edge returns him and Jericho will pick up a nice feud.

Hopefully, when they drop the belts, they either chase after them for a while, or the brand split keeps them separate. I don't want to see Jericho vs. Show. It'll be boring, because there's not too much that would convince me Jericho could beat Show, even though, somehow, inexplicable, Creative would have Show tap out to the Walls. ({sarcasm}Because show couldn't possibly move himself and Jericho to the ropes. {/sarcasm} Jericho is about the weight of a hearty breakfast to Big Show.)

As far as the other tag teams you have Cryme Tyme, the Hart Dynasty, Jackson and Kozlov, and um..... ..... .... yeah that about does it. Cryme Tyme is on the second WWE run, and have never held the tag titles, the Hart Dynasty has done nothing but job to Cryme Tyme since moving to Smackdown, and your other Tag Team is on the C-show, and don't stand a chance of seeing a PPV match, let alone the Tag Champs visit ECW.

This is pretty much all fact, so not much to argue over.

MVP and WSM was a good idea, but how long until you turn one on the other?

Again, I'm hoping that they just kind of drift apart when the time comes. Mark could go right after whoever is WWE Champion (turn Cena heel if need be), while MVP could briefly reinsert himself into the US Title Picture. This could be seen as a step down for MVP, but I'd actually like to see him contend for the WWE Championship as the US Champion, and then vacate the US Belt. Yes, he'd have to defend one while chasing the other. He'd have two storylines. I'm probably asking way, way too much of Creative to keep two stories for one guy straight.

You've also paired up Batista and Rey (the worst two WWE superstars IMO) again to bore the life out of anyone who likes wrestling, or enjoys tag teams (Wait does anyone really like tag wrestling?)

Again, I can't say much here. Batista would be better if he didn't rip or tear something every three months. I'm really hoping they don't win, though. I don't have much desire to see Batista or Mysterio on RAW right now. Too many babyfaces as is. We need Jerishow just for the heel factor!

Back to the topic on hand. And 8 man tag? Really these are big events? You also want to base an entire upcoming PPV on Tag Wrestling? or possibly have another Raw vs Smackdown vs ECW 8-10 man tag match at Survivor Series? Please reconsider this, because these matches suck and need to stop taking place until you can get the two on two tag match formula fixed.

Already addressed the 8 man tag above. As to the upcoming PPV based on tag...which one is it? If it's Bragging Rights, I haven't seen that, yet...Survivor Series was always about 8 or 10 man Survivor Series matches, so I doubt you'd be complaining about that. And TLC is too far off to worry about now. I do hope that they can "fix" the tag division, but I will wait to pass judgment for quite some time (or until Vince lets it fall to pieces again. At which point I stop waiting and pass judgment )

 

[colalella2891]

lol, might want to fix some of your grammar errors in there or he'll never take you seriously... all in all though, nice letter. I feel the exact same way. Tag wrestling wasn't even that bad a few years ago and now it's all shot to hell. And I didn't agree with "Smackdown's Biggest 8-man tag!!" It was pretty dumb. Batista and Rey were a suckish tag team as well. Mostly because of Batista of course. But, yea I agree with you, I wish Vince would read it.

 

[Tastycles]

This topic just won't die. I'll ignore the fact that you think having 5 of the top 5 most popular performers in professional wrestling in one match isn't a good idea, and the fact that you think Vince reads WrestleZone, and concetrate on the real matter at hand.

Tag team wrestling has never drawn big in North America, so it makes sense to make more marketable singles stars. The Hardys, Edge and Christian and Dudleys were kept together ten years ago because they weren't good enough to feud with The Rock and Austin. These days, The Miz and Morrison are good enough to feud with the main eventers, so they split up. Its as simple as that.

The other side of the coin is that it means that there is a narrow tolerance band for long term tag teams. Tag teams are either good enough to be split up or too poor to be on television. Cryme Tyme and the Hart Foundation are the only two that aren't big enough to breakout, but are entertaining enough not to be sent away. This has always been the case in wrestling, and you will struggle to find many periods were there are more than two or three half decent tag teams.

Even in the days of the TLC matches, you had arse like Bull Buchanen and the Goodfather being in the top 5 teams. It's unsurprising that there are no decent tag teams now, all of the good ones are in the main event. If the WWE kept teams together forever, then the main event would suffer, and given the choice of improving something that draws compared to maintaining something that doesn't, I know which I'd choose.

 

[The Todd]

I understand that you wanted to do something big, something special, and something the pump the ratings up for the 10th anniversary of Smackdown, but an 8-man Tag match? Really this was your big idea?

The three main events all hyped in one match which makes each one look as important as the other. What was wrong with it?

You've done such a poor job of booking this division you had to combine the two titles in order to make room for them on the card. (An idea I thought of 5 years ago)

There shouldn't have been two titles anyway. Just be thankful they were removed. He does something right and you then massacre him for doing it late?

You took your best working(Jericho), and someone who's been incorrectly booked for most of his WWE career (Big Show) to try and save tag wrestling.

And it appears to be working. Are the tag titles now on PPV's? Are people taking an interest?

Although the division has seen vast improvements over the past few months you have made a strong effort to rebuild the division, we all know it wont last.

So why not enjoy it while it lasts instead of complaining for no reason. the tag division's purpose is to allow new wrestlers some air time, for them to get over then split up and work on their singles success. Look how well Edge from Edge and Christian turne dout, JBL from APA and Jeff Hardy from the Hardy's.

Legacy will only last so long before you turn one of them face against the other (Ted goes face on Cody and Orton)

Of course. The whole point of Legacy was to build their credibility, it is being done then they can capitalise on Ted's popularity at the right time from a business point of view, say, when his DVD is released?

DX needed to never rejoin forces, it wasn't entertaining last item, and its not entertaining now.

So there are not enough tag teams, but you don't want him to make some more? You just like complaining don't you? DX are extremely well over and are working one of the hottest feuds in the industry at the moment. What is the problem?

Jeri-Show will go like every other tag team, they'll break up to feud with each other (too bad its not Jericho and Edge, because that program will be worth watching)

It's not Vince's fault Edge got injured. They have done the best they can. It is working well, very well. Give him some credit.

As far as the other tag teams you have Cryme Tyme, the Hart Dynasty, Jackson and Kozlov, and um..... ..... .... yeah that about does it. Cryme Tyme is on the second WWE run, and have never held the tag titles, the Hart Dynasty has done nothing but job to Cryme Tyme since moving to Smackdown, and your other Tag Team is on the C-show, and don't stand a chance of seeing a PPV match, let alone the Tag Champs visit ECW.

Just because they are a tag team they should be the tag champs is that what you mean? No, they need to be built up first. Cryme Tyme have been built up reasonably well by JeriShow, they even got to compete at Summerslam. Now they are giving Hart Dynasty some of their rub, so both teams can be elevated to a higher level.

MVP and WSM was a good idea, but how long until you turn one on the other?

When one or the other is over enough. Neither were getting the reaction that was desired, so they teamed them together to help each other out. It is working, give it time.

You've also paired up Batista and Rey (the worst two WWE superstars IMO) again to bore the life out of anyone who likes wrestling, or enjoys tag teams (Wait does anyone really like tag wrestling?)

Rey is one of the worst superstars? A man who shifts loads of merchandise, is incredibly over and has putten on outstanding matches with Jericho, Ziggler and Morrison in the past few months, not to mention make the IC title worthwile? Oh, I get it, it's cos he's "for the kiddies" isn't it?

As for Batista, he is incredibly over, he just needs to work on his selling abilities. These two together will please the live crowd. Great business idea.

Back to the topic on hand. And 8 man tag? Really these are big events? You also want to base an entire upcoming PPV on Tag Wrestling? or possibly have another Raw vs Smackdown vs ECW 8-10 man tag match at Survivor Series? Please reconsider this, because these matches suck and need to stop taking place until you can get the two on two tag match formula fixed.

So you complain the tag division has been neglected and then complain when they do tag matches? Do you want only official tag teams to compete in tag matches from now on? That would be a terrible idea.

Tag matches with main event level superstars is a good way of giving a free to air big match without having the two superstars actually go one-on-one.

As for PPV multi man tag matches, well you can have your own opinion on this but I love Survivor Series. The Elimination matches are something I really look forward to. Such a shame you don't enjoy them. Maybe you just don't buy that PPV and start watching the PPVs that are more suited to you.

 

[Lancer]

How many "letters" to Vince are we going to see here? As if Vincent Kennedy McMahon journeys into the Wrestlezone Forums every day to read how shitty of a job he is doing.

Only a pipe dream...

On to the topic, Jericho and Big Show are doing a solid job of creating interest in the tag team division, in my opinion. Chris Jericho is the brains of the outfit, and Show is the unflinching muscle who backs up Jericho's big mouth....even though The World's Largest Athlete looks like a bloated Justin Credible.

The problem with the tag division right now is the lack of teams that appear to be credible challengers to the titles. Do MVP and Mark Henry deserve to wear the belts simply because they wear matching singlets? DX and Legacy are wrapped up in a feud which appears will last all the way to Survivor Series; Cryme Tyme already had a shot; and the Hart Dynasty is "not ready" by WWE standards.

So the only option for the creative team is to cobble together random teams and throw them at JeriShow, relying on JeriShow's talent to carry the program. Despite the good job I think the two are doing as the champs, I think WWE should have put the belts on Legacy a few months back at the Bash. It would have done more wonders for their status than that of Chris Jericho & Edge / Big Show's.

After all, we can't have fucking Hardyz Reunion No. 2000.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

The only reason that Chris Jericho and Big Show are Tag Team Champions to begin with was NOT to save the Tag Team Division. Rather, it was done with the intention of getting both Chris Jericho and Big Show to appear on BOTH Raw and Smackdown, either as a Tag Team, or Singles Wrestlers ... to cover up for their lack of roster depth.

Vince and his followers, including Jim Ross, don't think Tag Team Wrestling sells. Well, if only the Main Event matters and everything else is just "filler" (as Vince likes to think of it) we mine as well only do PPV's with two matches on them: the WWE Championship and the World Championship.

Vince has lost the true concept of why Tag Teams are important: they vary the type of matches on the card, and they are used to elevate performers into the Mid Card Division as Singles Wrestlers.

Developing wrestlers has been a huge thorn in Vince's side for a long time now. You would think he should be endorsing everything possible to work towards that goal ... and start thinking long term again like he used to. The man has truly gotten lazy over the past several years with his booking.

 

[physcosickmondo]

My only problem with the tag team division is that the WWE seems stuck on the idea that a good tag team is one HUGE guy and one smaller guy. Jerrishow, Mark Henry/Mvp, Mysterio/Batista, to a lesser extent Cryme Time. In order for the tag team division to be successful, we need tag teams that our synergistic like it use to be with the Dudleys, Edge/Christian, Hardys, etc.

 

[Nature Boy]

I have said before on this forum that I love Tag Team wrestling. I have always loved Tag Team wrestling.

The WWE don't even have a Tag Team division.

TNA and ROH have great Tag Team divisions.

Team 3D
Beer Money Inc
Motor City Machine Guns
British Invasion
Booker T & Scott Steiner
LAX (Until recently)

The Briscoe Brothers
The American Wolves
The Young Bucks
The Super Smash Bros
The Miracle Ultraviolence Connection

The WWE should take a leaf out of both promotions books, and really try to build a Tag Team division to be proud of.

The Wild Samoans, The British Bulldogs, The Hart Foundation, Demolition, Owen Hart & Yokozuna, New Age Outlaws, Edge & Christian, The Hardy Boyz...

Thats a Tag Team legacy to be proud of, and it makes me so sad that the WWE have let all that history fall by the wayside and aren't building on it today.

I really hope that the WWE makes Tag Team wrestling a force and real feature of their programming once again.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

The WWE don't even have a Tag Team division.

Course they do.

TNA and ROH have great Tag Team divisions.

Not really.

Team 3D
Beer Money Inc
Motor City Machine Guns
British Invasion
Booker T & Scott Steiner
LAX (Until recently)

Six teams don't make a good tag division. How many of their tag title matches over the past year have revolved around Beer Money vs. Team 3D?

Even WWE have 6 tag teams, Hart Dynasty, D-X, Legacy, Cryme Tyme, Jericho & Big Show and Kozlov & Jackson.

The Briscoe Brothers
The American Wolves
The Young Bucks
The Super Smash Bros
The Miracle Ultraviolence Connection

Five teams means repetition more than anything.

The WWE should take a leaf out of both promotions books, and really try to build a Tag Team division to be proud of.

I'd take what WWE are doing with Jericho & Big Show over anything those two promotions are doing right now.

The Wild Samoans, The British Bulldogs, The Hart Foundation, Demolition, Owen Hart & Yokozuna, New Age Outlaws, Edge & Christian, The Hardy Boyz...

Thats a Tag Team legacy to be proud of, and it makes me so sad that the WWE have let all that history fall by the wayside and aren't building on it today.

You lost me at Owen hart & Yokozuna.

WWE hasn't had an depth to their tag division in 20 years. People seem to think that the Dudleyz/Hardy/Edge & Christion days were something special. They weren't they just produced a couple of great matches, people seem to forget the shit inbetween.

More tag teams equals more shit tag teams. WWE don't have time to build up anymore.

 

[Nature Boy]

^People will always have different opinions, which is what makes these forums so interesting!

It's my opinion that the WWE Tag Team Division is terrible, and TNA and ROH do it so much better.

If you prefer how the WWE do things then good for you!

I do disagree that there have been no good Tag Teams since before Owen Hart & Yokozuna

There have always been mediocre teams and bad teams mixed in with the good and the great teams.

For every Barry Windham there is a Barry Horrowitz.

 

[tLight]

The WWE has always been good about how to use their extra main Eventer when they don't have a main event program for them put them in a tag team and give them the titles, it'll keep them busy for at least 3-5 months, then break them up and feud them.

The pairing of Austin and Triple H as the Power Trip, or Kane and Undertaker as the Brothers of destruction. The countless Tag Teams Kane has been in. Golddust and Booker T, Beniot and Jericho, London and Kendrick, Billy and Chuck, Jericho and Christian, Rated RKO.

Sometimes this works great Triple H turning on HBK back in 2002 breaking these two up at that time lead to one of their best matches, yeah I'm talking about that awesome non sanctioned match at SummerSlam.

Sometimes it doesn't work at all Carlito turning on Primo earlier this year, anyone remember why this happen, or what either of them have done significant since being broken up?

Jeri-Show is a great example, it was even better when it was Edge and Jericho because we knew it was destine to become some great feud that would turn Edge from a heel to a face (seeing as him and Jericho both get cheered for as heels) We knew how Jericho and Edge was going to end, but what will happen once Jericho and Show part ways? Most say they have no interest in Jericho facing Show at any point down the line, and neither do I. Thankfully their on different shows, so we might avoid a Jericho vs Show feud in the long run.

There have been some stand out tag teams over the past few years in the WWE, but they have all been pushed to the back burner and away from the main spot light for some unknown reason. Sometimes pairing two guys up is the only way to see if either of them can stand alone.

 

[Rated_R_Superstar2010]

i kno that about 6 months ago we all hated the tagteam division of the wwe but i'd say they have really stepped it up. we have:

DX
MVP and WSM
Legacy
Cryme Tyme
The Hart Dynasty
Jerishow
Batista and mysterio ?? (not really sure if batista and rey are here to stay.)

now obviousely its not nearly as good as it could be but the dx legacy feud and the constant title defenses by jerishow i think have really brought back the relevance of the tagteam division. i mean last wrestlemania the title unification wasnt even on tv. now i'd say a tagtitle match at mania would be pretty important. and with HHH, shawn, jericho, and bigshow, and maybe even batista and rey in the tag division it has opened up some doors for yunger guys to go to the ME. although cm punk is the only example up to this point i could really see some1 like mvp or kofi or morrison or even christian getting the call. also i'd say the overall product has improved, now i know HIAC sucked but storyline wise the tag division is important again.



so how do you think the tagteam division is doing and how has it helped or hurt the wwe overall?

 

[Tastycles]

The WWE has always been good about how to use their extra main Eventer when they don't have a main event program for them put them in a tag team and give them the titles, it'll keep them busy for at least 3-5 months, then break them up and feud them.

They've done that very few times. In fact, the tag team championships have never been held by a team of two main eventers for over three months since, well ever, unless you count career midcarders Big Show and Kane.

The pairing of Austin and Triple H as the Power Trip,

Lasted a few weeks, one title reign.

or Kane and Undertaker as the Brothers of destruction.

Two reigns of shorter than 30 days. Also, seeing as they are "brothers", it is hardly throwing them randomly into a feud.

The countless Tag Teams Kane has been in.

Always with midcarders, because he is a midcarder.

Golddust and Booker T

In what universe is Goldust a main eventer?

, Beniot and Jericho

Upper midcarders.

London and Kendrick

Not main eventers.

Billy and Chuck

Your just naming "and" teams, aren't you?

Jericho and Christian

Upper midcarders

Rated RKO.

Who feuded with other main eventers, and in addition, Orton hadn't held the championship for almost three years at this point.

Sometimes this works great Triple H turning on HBK back in 2002 breaking these two up at that time lead to one of their best matches, yeah I'm talking about that awesome non sanctioned match at SummerSlam.

Right, so when it involves main eventers, it works.

Sometimes it doesn't work at all Carlito turning on Primo earlier this year, anyone remember why this happen, or what either of them have done significant since being broken up?

And when it doesn't, it doesn't. What you seem to be forgetting is that Primo and Carlito didn't do anything noteworthy when they were a team. They held the titles for 9 months, can you remember anything about their reign? Without checking, I bet you can't remember how they won the titles.

On the other hand Miz and Morrison were good as a team, but compare their positions now, and they are much stronger. Both have feuded with bona fide main eventers. This time last year they were feuding with Deuce and Domino.

The only reason that Chris Jericho and Big Show are Tag Team Champions to begin with was NOT to save the Tag Team Division. Rather, it was done with the intention of getting both Chris Jericho and Big Show to appear on BOTH Raw and Smackdown, either as a Tag Team, or Singles Wrestlers ... to cover up for their lack of roster depth.

Or was it because Edge got injured. What actually happened was they had two Smackdown wrestlers win the titles, then one of them got injured. Because Hardy was leaving and Undertaker was out injured they had to look elsewhere for another wrestler. It's all well and good to proclaim the roster is shallow, but when Batista, Michaels, Taker and Edge were all injured and Jeff Hardy was on his way out, you have to cut some slack. 5 main eventers being out would have hurt any company in any era.

Vince and his followers, including Jim Ross, don't think Tag Team Wrestling sells. Well, if only the Main Event matters and everything else is just "filler" (as Vince likes to think of it) we mine as well only do PPV's with two matches on them: the WWE Championship and the World Championship.

No, because people want their money's worth and with two matches, they won't feel their getting that. Think of the shows that are considered good, say, WrestleMania XV. The tag team championship match on that show was D'Lo Brown and Test vs Owen Hart and Jeff Jarrett. That's filler.

WrestleMania 23, their biggest selling PPV of all time, and there wasn't even a tag team match on that show. The point is, is that it is the main events that people care about. The other stuff needs to be there, so people can be built up to it. The purpose of the undercard is to build the crowds interest, not to draw money.

The WWE hasn't put a single decent tag team match on for about 8 years, so why would they focus on the division. I'm sure if two teams came along that could maintain interest, we'd see it. In the meantime, they put the titles on two good wrestlers who put on good tag matches, and always have, it makes sense really. Unfortunately, one got injured, but you can't get in a pissy because someone got injured.

Vince has lost the true concept of why Tag Teams are important: they vary the type of matches on the card, and they are used to elevate performers into the Mid Card Division as Singles Wrestlers.

Developing wrestlers has been a huge thorn in Vince's side for a long time now. You would think he should be endorsing everything possible to work towards that goal ... and start thinking long term again like he used to. The man has truly gotten lazy over the past several years with his booking.

Yeah, because guys like The Miz, John Morrison, Dolph Ziggler, Kofi Kingston, Zack Ryder etc. are exactly where they were a year ago.

The guy who has literally just lost the title was on ECW 2 years ago.

Even fucking Cena and Batista were midcarders 5 years ago, have you forgotten that? Stars aren't made overnight. People seem to forget that it took Edge 5 years to win the WWE championship after Edge and Christian broke up.

People seem to think that developing superstars happens overnight, it doesn't. The guys that came from tag teams in recent years: The Hardys, Edge, Christian etc. have all taken 6 or 7 years to reach their pinnacle. Miz and Morrison split up 6 months ago and they will get there.

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I will put this in the simplest terms possible now to people. Of all the WWE and WHC championships ever, the following made their names in wrestling as tag teamers: Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, arguably Steve Austin, arguably HHH, JBL, Edge, Jeff Hardy, Booker T.

That leaves Buddy Rogers, Bruno Sammartino, Ivan Koloff, Pedro Morales, Stan Stasiak, Billy Graham, Bob Backlund, The Iron Sheik, Hulk Hogan, Andre The Giant, Randy Savage, The Ultimate Warrior, Sgt. Slaughter, The Undertaker, Ric Flair, Yokozuna, Diesel, Sycho Sid, arguably Steve Austin, Kane, The Rock, Mankind, Arguably HHH, Vince McMahon, The Big Show, Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho, Brock Lesnar, Eddie Guerrero, John Cena, Rob Van Dam, Randy Orton, Batista, Goldberg, Chris Benoit, Rey Mysterio, The Great Khali, CM Punk that didn't.

So, what we can take from that, is that tag team wrestling has never been the primary method of making main eventers.

There's another point that needs to be made. Tag team wrestling has never had a deep and good division in the WWE, or possibly anywhere in the USA. TNA's "excellent tag division" consists of Beer Money and 3D feuding each other, while the MCMG and LEthal Consequences fight each other for literally no reason.

Lets look at the WWE. The times that people look at at being good is 1999-2001 and 1987-1991 in tag team divisions. Now there are two things to notice about those times. They are the times when the WWE had the best main eventers it had ever had. This means that the better midcarders who would usually feud with main eventers are not in a position to. Picture Bret Hart feuding with Hulk Hogan in 1988, or Christian feuding with the Rock in 2000 and you will see why it'd never have worked. Now, our main eventers aren't on the same level, so it's fine to see Miz feud with Cena.

The other point is that even in those "golden eras" things weren't very goledn at all. In 1999-2001, you had the three teams of brothers, but their opposition was Too Cool, Head Cheese and the Holly Cousins. It's already been said, but the feuds between Edge and Christian, the Hardys and the Dudleys were essentially very boring and uninspiring, punctuated with some great matches in between. I can't think of many classic non gimmick matches between any of them.

In 1987-1991, you had teams that came and went. Tag title reigns were long, dull affairs consisting of wins over teams of actual jobbers. Sure, the teams had some good wrestlers in them, but rarely fought each other. In essence, the tag division was an afterthought, and it is now. Tag team wrestling has never mattered, but you only notice because the one thing that it has had going for it at times have been its good matches, and you're never going to get that out of Jesse and Festus.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

Or was it because Edge got injured. What actually happened was they had two Smackdown wrestlers win the titles, then one of them got injured. Because Hardy was leaving and Undertaker was out injured they had to look elsewhere for another wrestler. It's all well and good to proclaim the roster is shallow, but when Batista, Michaels, Taker and Edge were all injured and Jeff Hardy was on his way out, you have to cut some slack. 5 main eventers being out would have hurt any company in any era.

Arguing for the sake of arguing. Amusing.

Two upper midcarders and part time main eventers are Tag Team Champions, so WWE can use their rule of "champions appearing on all shows" and thus cover for their lack of roster depth in the main event and upper midcard.

I mean seriously ... the pairing of Chris Jericho and The Big Show as a Tag Team? It doesn't get more obvious with what WWE is doing here.

Of course, the same would have applied with Edge and Chris Jericho. Although Edge is a step up from Chris Jericho in status of being a regular Main Eventer, he still would have been utilized to appear on both shows. They just had to go with Big Show instead, since Edge got injured.

The bottom line is that Vince really could care less about the Tag Team Division and is not placing an effort into it simply by making Jericho and Big Show champions. Rather, he is finding a way to keep his roster split in tact, but still work those two into appearing on both shows to cover for his lack of roster depth.

No, because people want their money's worth and with two matches, they won't feel their getting that. Think of the shows that are considered good, say, WrestleMania XV. The tag team championship match on that show was D'Lo Brown and Test vs Owen Hart and Jeff Jarrett. That's filler.

Yes, it was. And I bitched and complained about that match like no tomorrow. The fact was that there were plenty of other established teams that could have taken the place of DLo Brown and Test so that they could have avoided doing that ridiculous battle royal.

They could have given Edge and Christian a shot. They could have thrown Too Cool in there.

This was actually the event I pinpoint when the Tag Team Division began going downhill ... where Vince began throwing any two guys together and calling them a "tag team".

WrestleMania 23, their biggest selling PPV of all time, and there wasn't even a tag team match on that show. The point is, is that it is the main events that people care about. The other stuff needs to be there, so people can be built up to it. The purpose of the undercard is to build the crowds interest, not to draw money.

And you think Wrestlemania 23 was the biggest PPV event of all time because it included all singles matches? Is that what you are implying by that statement?

Wrestlemania 23 sold because of two things: primarily Donald Trump, and the John Cena vs Shawn Michaels main event. That pretty much did it.

Now, you mentioned that the purpose of the undercard was "too build interest" as opposed to "draw money". How is this statement relative to the debate between Tag Team Wrestling and Singles Wrestling?

The WWE hasn't put a single decent tag team match on for about 8 years, so why would they focus on the division. I'm sure if two teams came along that could maintain interest, we'd see it.

If Two Teams came along? You mean to tell me that there are no competent Tag Teams out there in the entire wrestling world that could put on good matches?

Tag Teams aren't around plain and simply because Vince doesn't want them around. That is the sole reason why they aren't around. Vince is not a fan of Tag Team wrestling (until he has to wrestle, of course).

In the meantime, they put the titles on two good wrestlers who put on good tag matches, and always have, it makes sense really. Unfortunately, one got injured, but you can't get in a pissy because someone got injured.

Well, first off I can get "pissy" over whatever I want to.

Secondly, there is a reason why guys like Jericho and Big Show are holding the belts as opposed to an established team like Cryme Tyme or Legacy. That is because they want Upper Midcarders appearing on both shows to cover for their lack of roster depth. That is the ONLY reason those guys are champions.

Yeah, because guys like The Miz, John Morrison, Dolph Ziggler, Kofi Kingston, Zack Ryder etc. are exactly where they were a year ago.

Have you noticed that all of those guys weren't really being pushed until this year?

You seem to forget all the other dilly-dallying Vince has done the past several years with leaving the entire Midcard Division in Limbo.

It was reported that only recently that McMahon got upset because he acknowledged that his company "has trouble developing stars". Well, he is the Head Writer for the shows. Maybe he should ask himself that question.

The guy who has literally just lost the title was on ECW 2 years ago.

Even fucking Cena and Batista were midcarders 5 years ago, have you forgotten that?

Spare me. Developing two wrestlers isn't very impressive over the span of five years. However, you seem to have forgotten that people like Cena and Orton were rushed straight to the main event because of .... you guessed it .... Vince had no other stars in the making to put there. Therefore, once again, some guys got called up from OVW to immediately be rushed to the Main Event, because Vince was once again asleep at the wheel with gradually developing talent .... something he used to be exceptional at.

Stars aren't made overnight. People seem to forget that it took Edge 5 years to win the WWE championship after Edge and Christian broke up.

People seem to think that developing superstars happens overnight, it doesn't. The guys that came from tag teams in recent years: The Hardys, Edge, Christian etc. have all taken 6 or 7 years to reach their pinnacle. Miz and Morrison split up 6 months ago and they will get there.

Who's complaining about Edge or Jeff Hardy, or Miz and Morrison?

Yes, it should take that many years for superstars to reach the Main Event division, if they are being handled properly.

 

[Tastycles]

Arguing for the sake of arguing. Amusing.

Or identifying the fact that you are wrong and, this being a forum, decided to point that out.

Two upper midcarders and part time main eventers are Tag Team Champions, so WWE can use their rule of "champions appearing on all shows" and thus cover for their lack of roster depth in the main event and upper midcard.

Two upper midcarders are champions so that the WWE can have at least some decent feuds in the division. The tag team championships have been defended on 5 PPVs in a row, when was the last time that happened? If the aim was solely to get them on all three brands,

I mean seriously ... the pairing of Chris Jericho and The Big Show as a Tag Team? It doesn't get more obvious with what WWE is doing here.

Yes, because putting two established stars in a division completely bereft of anyone can only be for some ulterior motive. They have feuded with all two of the established teams. The division has nobody in it

Of course, the same would have applied with Edge and Chris Jericho. Although Edge is a step up from Chris Jericho in status of being a regular Main Eventer, he still would have been utilized to appear on both shows. They just had to go with Big Show instead, since Edge got injured.

Everything about the show before Edge and Jericho was exactly the same. The show was doing fine without main eventers before, and then 4 were inactive. That's unfortunate. The fact that they were made champions may be to cover this, but it seems unlikely. If the Raw Main Event needed bolstering, they wouldn't have moved Batista. You seem to be suggesting that the WWE would have used two of the top 4 names on Smackdown to bolster a Raw roster that already had the biggest names in wrestling, which really doesn't make any sense.

The bottom line is that Vince really could care less about the Tag Team Division and is not placing an effort into it simply by making Jericho and Big Show champions. Rather, he is finding a way to keep his roster split in tact, but still work those two into appearing on both shows to cover for his lack of roster depth.

You'd have a point if either had been involved in any singles feuds at all on the brands they aren't on, but they haven't. It'd make sense if they hadn't feuded with both of the established tag teams in the company, but they haven't. What they're presence has done is made the division worthy of being on PPV, which is something that hadn't happened for years.

Yes, it was. And I bitched and complained about that match like no tomorrow. The fact was that there were plenty of other established teams that could have taken the place of DLo Brown and Test so that they could have avoided doing that ridiculous battle royal.

They could have given Edge and Christian a shot. They could have thrown Too Cool in there.

This was actually the event I pinpoint when the Tag Team Division began going downhill ... where Vince began throwing any two guys together and calling them a "tag team".

And this is where you are wrong. In the years before that match, the teams were shockingly poor. They couldn't have given Edge and Christian a shot because The Brood weren't really ever used as a tag team at that point, it would have been two random members of a stable. There has never been a strong tag tradition in WWE.

The teams who were champions prior to WrestleMania XV consisted of absolutely dire things like the Headbangers, slap dash teams like Kane and Mankind and literally the only good tag team of the era in the New Age Outlaws. Go a bit further back. 1-2-3 Kid had two tag reigns with absolutely random people. That's slapdashery. Let's go further back, teams in the 80s were basically formed because they were managed by the same people, or because they used to be in tag teams. Strike Force was two tag wrestlers put together.

Your point seems to be that tag team wrestling is a joke now. I'm not here to argue against that. I know it is, but it always has been. In fact, the current reign is probably the most that has been invested in the tag division for years.

And you think Wrestlemania 23 was the biggest PPV event of all time because it included all singles matches? Is that what you are implying by that statement?

No, I'm saying that tag team wrestling has no bearing on an event drawing money.

Wrestlemania 23 sold because of two things: primarily Donald Trump, and the John Cena vs Shawn Michaels main event. That pretty much did it.

Thanks for that, I was under the impression it was Khali vs Kane.

Now, you mentioned that the purpose of the undercard was "too build interest" as opposed to "draw money". How is this statement relative to the debate between Tag Team Wrestling and Singles Wrestling?

In a world with no decent tag teams, its actually quite relevant. The purpose of the undercard is to have good matches that gee the crowd up. Would you rather see Deuce n' Domino vs Shannon Moore and Jimmy Wang Yang or Benoit versus MVP?

The WWE hasn't had many good tag teams for a long time, so there's no point in shoehorning them onto the card for no reason. Do you really think that putting Ezeikel Jackson and Kozlov on a PPV instead of Jericho and Show is going to please anybody at all?

If Two Teams came along? You mean to tell me that there are no competent Tag Teams out there in the entire wrestling world that could put on good matches?

Yes I am. When was the last time you saw two competent tag teams face off?

Tag Teams aren't around plain and simply because Vince doesn't want them around. That is the sole reason why they aren't around. Vince is not a fan of Tag Team wrestling (until he has to wrestle, of course).

Why is there no decent tag teams in TNA then? The teams in TNA consist of two half decent ones: Beer Money and MCMG, one designed to protect the complete lack of wrestling experience of Brutus Magnus: British Invvasion, one set of has beens: 3D, two main eventers forced together: Steiner and Booker and Lethal Consequences, which is basically an excuse for two X-division wrestlers not to be useless.

Vince has promoted his tag division when it is worth promoting. Miz and Morrison were on every show, because they were a decent team. You cannot sustain a division by having Cryme Tyme feud Hart Legacy for a year. Every single team that has been in any way good has been kept together. If Vince didn't like tag wrestling, wouldn't he be trying to keep it off Pay Per View, rather than putting two of his three biggest draws in tag matches at the most recent PPV?

Well, first off I can get "pissy" over whatever I want to.

Do you really take yourself that seriously?

Secondly, there is a reason why guys like Jericho and Big Show are holding the belts as opposed to an established team like Cryme Tyme or Legacy. That is because they want Upper Midcarders appearing on both shows to cover for their lack of roster depth. That is the ONLY reason those guys are champions.

Then why did Primo and Carlito appear on both shows? Miz and Morrison? The upper midcard on Raw is in the best shape it has been in for several years, there's no reason that these two are champs other than the fact Legacy can't be the champions permanently. LEgacy just main evented a PPV, that's hardly holding them down.

Have you noticed that all of those guys weren't really being pushed until this year?

Yes, because they are this year's pushed wrestlers.

Last year we saw MVP, Jeff Hardy, Mark Henry, CM Punk, Umaga etc. The year before was Lashley, Kennedy, Randy Orton... Etc.

You seem to forget all the other dilly-dallying Vince has done the past several years with leaving the entire Midcard Division in Limbo.

You seem to forget that this has always been the case. Your winner and neewww Intercontinal Champion Dean Douglaaaaas.

The midcard and the tag team division are exactly the same beast. They are filler. The only times there have been a particularly strong midcard is when there's been a good main event. Right now, the WWE has one bona fide top drawer main eventer in John Cena, two or three solid main eventers in Orton, HHH and maybe Batista, and a load of people who 10 years ago would have been in tag teams and the midcard. They need to be in the main event now, so the other things suffer.

The only difference between the great eras of midcard and tag team wrestling is the top two or three people. The midcard in 2000 still had D-Lo Brown, The Godfather and Prince Albert in it. The only thing that made it any different from today is that Chris Benoit and Chris Jericho weren't needed in the main event.

It was reported that only recently that McMahon got upset because he acknowledged that his company "has trouble developing stars". Well, he is the Head Writer for the shows. Maybe he should ask himself that question.

Who has anyone else developed in the last ten years? AJ Styles is one of the most talented wrestlers in the world, but he isn't a star. Why? Because making stars is hard. If Vince did say that, he should probably note that of his current roster, only one, Paul Wight, arrived as a main eventer. He has made every single other guy on the roster.

Spare me. Developing two wrestlers isn't very impressive over the span of five years. However, you seem to have forgotten that people like Cena and Orton were rushed straight to the main event because of .... you guessed it .... Vince had no other stars in the making to put there.

Wrong on so many levels. Randy Orton had one championship reign, but wasn't a regular main eventer until 2007. That's 5 years. John Cena took three years, so did Batista. They both took longer than The Rock and Austin to get to the main event.

Secondly, Vince didn't really need up and comers in 2002, he already had his established stars, who were all competing. In the meantime, he had Benoit, Lesnar, RVD, Edge, Christian etc. all there for the future. Benoit made it to the main event, so did Lesnar, RVD did too, Edge was out for a year, but still made it inside 4 years. The rise of Lesnar was rushed, but everyone else took their time to get there. John Cena won the WWE title 2 years and 9 months after debuting. Hulk Hogan won the WWF title 27 days after debuting.

That's being rushed, Cena was pushed, that's the difference. The entire WWE main event is home grown, bar one. What is the point in pushing young guys to the moon when the main event is already there. As soon as they need a new star, they are the

Therefore, once again, some guys got called up from OVW to immediately be rushed to the Main Event, because Vince was once again asleep at the wheel with gradually developing talent .... something he used to be exceptional at.

Immediately rushed? How many PPVs did John Cena main event in his first year in WWE? Zero. Second year? Zero. In fact, he didn't until after he was the champion. He had one WWE title match on PPV within 9 months of debuting, but that is hardly being rushed. That's the gradual development of talent. What is different between the rise of The Rock and the rise of John Cena? What is different between the rise of John Morrison and Shawn Michaels at the same stage? What is different between the rise of HHH and CM Punk?

Who's complaining about Edge or Jeff Hardy, or Miz and Morrison?

Yes, it should take that many years for superstars to reach the Main Event division, if they are being handled properly.

Name literally one wrestler in the last 6 years to main event a PPV in their debut year. The main eventers of tomorrow are in the midcard, the main eventers of today spent years there.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

Or identifying the fact that you are wrong and, this being a forum, decided to point that out.

I'm not wrong. But if it makes you feel bigger thinking so, be my guest.

Two upper midcarders are champions so that the WWE can have at least some decent feuds in the division. The tag team championships have been defended on 5 PPVs in a row, when was the last time that happened? If the aim was solely to get them on all three brands,

Absolutely not.

All Vince uses Tag Teams for is to get the wrestlers on each of the different brands to make his rosters look bigger than they really are.

The reason Jericho and Big Show appear on PPV's and defend the belts is because they are very established Upper Midcarders (occasional Main Eventers) and Vince wants to given them a payday.

If Vince was really serious about Tag Team Wrestling, he would be creating more Tag Teams. Instead, he slaps a team together here and there (like he essentially did with Jericho and Big Show) to throw them on a show.

When he is serious about Tag Team wrestling returning, we will see at least 3 or 4 more teams being established and placed on his shows. Until then, throwing a new tag team together like Mark Henry and MVP just for one month doesn't cut it. Especially since you know in advance that it isn't long term.

Yes, because putting two established stars in a division completely bereft of anyone can only be for some ulterior motive. They have feuded with all two of the established teams. The division has nobody in it

Correct on all of the above. And why isn't there anybody in the Division? Simple. Because Vince doesn't take the Division seriously and nor is it a priority for him.

Vince has a lot of measures in place to develop Tag Teams. Especially FCW. If Vince was interested in growing the Tag Team Division, he would have new teams being formed with gimmicks in FCW. He doesn't. Why? Simple. We've been through this before.

There are plenty of competent wrestlers who undoubtedly would make awesome teams together. I personally think for young guys starting out, that placing them in a Tag Team is the best way to develop talent. You get the most longetivity out of their careers, as well.

Bret Hart
Shawn Michaels
Owen Hart
British Bulldog
John Morrison
Edge
Christian
Jeff Hardy
Matt Hardy
The Miz
Jacques Rougeau
Tito Santana
Rick Martel
The Big Boss Man
Crush from Demolition
Mabel from Men on a Mission

most of which went on to Upper Midcard/Main Event status.

Everything about the show before Edge and Jericho was exactly the same. The show was doing fine without main eventers before, and then 4 were inactive. That's unfortunate. The fact that they were made champions may be to cover this, but it seems unlikely. If the Raw Main Event needed bolstering, they wouldn't have moved Batista. You seem to be suggesting that the WWE would have used two of the top 4 names on Smackdown to bolster a Raw roster that already had the biggest names in wrestling, which really doesn't make any sense.

Both rosters needed bolstering. Just with Jeff Hardy being gone, Smackdown actually needed more bolstering than Raw.

However, having two established Upper Midcard Wrestlers like Jericho and Big Show would still solve that problem, since they could appear on both shows and attempt to disguise the lack of rosters.

So you're right. Nothing has changed. This was simply the purpose of why Edge and Jericho were given the belts ... and since Edge got injured, why Big Show was substituted as another Upper Midcarder in his place.

You'd have a point if either had been involved in any singles feuds at all on the brands they aren't on, but they haven't. It'd make sense if they hadn't feuded with both of the established tag teams in the company, but they haven't. What they're presence has done is made the division worthy of being on PPV, which is something that hadn't happened for years.

Well, fact of the matter is that a Tag Team Championship has been defended on PPV for a number of years now. Mostly the World Tag Team Championship, however there have been PPV's where the WWE Tag Team Championship has been defended as well. This didn't just start happening when Jericho and Big Show captured the titles.

Ross has already admitted that Vince is not a fan of Tag Team Wrestling on his blog, so I don't know if your purpose is to try and claim that he is, or what. But Vince does not like Tag Team wrestling and pretty much all of the IWC accepts it. Your attempts at making the IWC think that putting the belts on Jericho and Big Show mean Vince is getting serious about Tag Team wrestling will not be taken seriously until Vince starts pairing and bringing up more Tag Teams up from FCW to spread across the rosters.

Until then, its obvious Vince is only using Jericho and Big Show in their roles to get them on both shows.

And this is where you are wrong. In the years before that match, the teams were shockingly poor. They couldn't have given Edge and Christian a shot because The Brood weren't really ever used as a tag team at that point, it would have been two random members of a stable. There has never been a strong tag tradition in WWE.

The Brood had been in more Tag Team Matches together than the team of Test and D-Lo Brown, I guarantee it. They were a far more established team/faction than that duo.

Or, as stated, he could have put Too Cool in there to go against Jarrett and Owen Hart.

However, as we covered, Vince really began shutting the Tag Team Division down around this particular PPV.

The teams who were champions prior to WrestleMania XV consisted of absolutely dire things like the Headbangers, slap dash teams like Kane and Mankind and literally the only good tag team of the era in the New Age Outlaws. Go a bit further back. 1-2-3 Kid had two tag reigns with absolutely random people. That's slapdashery. Let's go further back, teams in the 80s were basically formed because they were managed by the same people, or because they used to be in tag teams. Strike Force was two tag wrestlers put together.

Prior to that PPV, there were still teams that had been solidified together, as opposed to people just slapped together. However, the Tag Team Division began getting shut down by Vince around this show.

However, prior to this show, there still was The New Age Outlaws (who Vince decided to split up), The Headbangers, Too Cool, Edge and Christian, British Bulldog and Owen Hart, Legion of Doom, The Smoking Gunns, The Body Donnas, The Godwinns, The Oddities, Kai en Tai, New Midnight Express, etc.

all of which were established Tag Teams.

Your point seems to be that tag team wrestling is a joke now. I'm not here to argue against that.

We can agree on this.

I know it is, but it always has been.

I disagree on this, though. He went downhill at Wrestlemania 15. Then, things got a little better when The Dudleys were introduced .... then, things went downhill again.

Probably, since around 2002 (guesstimating), the Tag Team Division has been absolute shit.

In fact, the current reign is probably the most that has been invested in the tag division for years.

To me, at least, who are the Champions don't tell the story. What tells the story to me of what type of effort Vince is putting in the Division is a simple snapshot of the number of Tag Teams in the company as well as the quality of those teams. As soon as Vince forms a Tag Team, he can't wait to split them up, which tells me he doesn't take the Division very seriously.

Plain and simple fact is that IF Vince wanted a serious Tag Team Division, we would have one. But since Vince follows "The Audience of One" and knows that wrestling fans will put up with whatever shit he throws on the air, because they are addicts, then he's going to do whatever he wants to do.

No, I'm saying that tag team wrestling has no bearing on an event drawing money.

I could argue that Singles Matches on the Undercard also have no bearing on an event drawing money.

How many buys was Drew McIntire vs R Truth responsible for bringing in?

The Undercard, as a whole, is support. I will NOT purchase a PPV solely based on the Main Event. There has to be a remotely decent undercard or I won't spend the money on it.

However, what Tag Team wrestling serves is a breather for the fans, from the basic One on One Singles Matches, which quite frankly, get boring after seeing one after the other.

Thanks for that, I was under the impression it was Khali vs Kane.

That's what I am here for. Just wanted to make sure you weren't implying that because the card had no Tag Teams wrestling, that this was the reason the show did so well, like you actually seemed to be implying.

In a world with no decent tag teams, its actually quite relevant. The purpose of the undercard is to have good matches that gee the crowd up. Would you rather see Deuce n' Domino vs Shannon Moore and Jimmy Wang Yang or Benoit versus MVP?

I'd like to see both Singles Wrestling and Tag Team Wrestling. Great Gimmicks and Entertaining Characters can always trump a good wrestling match, any day. The classic example of this has always been Hulk Hogan.

So find an entertaining tag team that can put on a remotely competent match, and I am happy to see it, because it provides variance to me from watching one singles match after another, which I get tired of.

I am a person that likes variety in my shows. Not everyone out there is solely entertained by watching 3-4 star singles matches for the entire duration of the PPV.

The WWE hasn't had many good tag teams for a long time, so there's no point in shoehorning them onto the card for no reason. Do you really think that putting Ezeikel Jackson and Kozlov on a PPV instead of Jericho and Show is going to please anybody at all?

I think you can work both on a show, to be frank. Jericho and Big Show are two established Singles workers. There is absolutely zero reason these two should be in the Tag Team Division at this point, other than trying to cover up for their lack of rosters, as we discussed.

I think the problem is also WWE putting the same guys on PPVs over and over again, as opposed to varying their cards.

Providing variety to the fans is one of the company's biggest detriments at the moment. Instead on a WWE PPV, you get the same guys, featured in the same matches over and over and over again. Why not vary the cards a little and get some different guys on the shows? Rotate them around.

Yes I am. When was the last time you saw two competent tag teams face off?

Couldn't tell you. I am sure they are out there on the Indys like the Brisco Brothers, however I don't follow Indy Wrestling anymore. That still shouldn't negate the point that Tag Teams can be formed of competent workers once they reach FCW. The same was done with Morrison and Mercury. Those two didn't team together until they got in WWE training. WWE put them together before they debuted.

There are competent wrestlers out there who undoubtedly would make great tag team workers IF WWE would take the initiative and put them together. The fact that they aren't doing this should be a dead giveaway that they don't consider Tag Team wrestling a priority.

Besides any of this, again nobody is going to take you seriously that WWE is getting serious about Tag Team Wrestling again until we start seeing some Tag Teams featured on WWE TV for the long haul. As the saying goes, "the proof is in the pudding".

Why is there no decent tag teams in TNA then? The teams in TNA consist of two half decent ones: Beer Money and MCMG, one designed to protect the complete lack of wrestling experience of Brutus Magnus: British Invasion, one set of has beens: 3D, two main eventers forced together: Steiner and Booker and Lethal Consequences, which is basically an excuse for two X-division wrestlers not to be useless.

Because sadly, TNA takes a lot of its cues from WWE Television, which is a big mistake, as far as I'm concerned.

This has come in play with the reduction of Tag Teams, the elimination of managers (James Mitchell and Jacqueline), and the elimination of Heel Commentators (Don West).

If anything, Carter should be producing a polar opposite product of what WWE is producing today, not trying to mimic it. That is TNA's problem.

Vince has promoted his tag division when it is worth promoting. Miz and Morrison were on every show, because they were a decent team. You cannot sustain a division by having Cryme Tyme feud Hart Legacy for a year.

Agreed. Which is why he needs more Tag Teams in the Division.

Every single team that has been in any way good has been kept together. If Vince didn't like tag wrestling, wouldn't he be trying to keep it off Pay Per View, rather than putting two of his three biggest draws in tag matches at the most recent PPV?

Vince isn't a fan of Tag Team Wrestling. I don't know how many times this has to be repeated to drill it into your head. Furthermore, I know very few people who are actually going to agree with you.

Vince occasionally places DX together to sell DX merchandise: T-shirts, hats, and glow sticks. If he is going to resurrect DX, then obviously he needs a Tag Team to feud with them. In this case, it is Legacy. If DX wasn't on the card together, then you can probably guarantee that Rhodes and Dibiase wouldn't be either. Instead, they would simply be Orton's lackeys and interfere in his match.

As far as Jericho and Big Show, we've already discussed why they are on the PPV's .... because they are his two biggest Upper Midcarders who he wants to give them a payday while having a match against another two pair of Midcarders, most recently Henry and MVP.

Then why did Primo and Carlito appear on both shows?

How long were they champions for? One month?

Miz and Morrison?

To do the same thing with them that they are doing with Jericho and Big Show .... hiding the roster depth.

I'm going to say this one more time. When WWE actually gets 3-4 established Tag Teams, and keeps them in a team for the long-term, we will know that Vince is actually investing something in the Tag Team Division. Until then, nope.

The upper midcard on Raw is in the best shape it has been in for several years, there's no reason that these two are champs other than the fact Legacy can't be the champions permanently. LEgacy just main evented a PPV, that's hardly holding them down.

And that was a joke.

Do you think if their opponents were NOT DX, that they still would have main evented the PPV? That was a joke enough as it was seeing them main event a PPV. Keep in mind that just because Vince tries to tell me that they are Main Event material, doesn't mean that I buy them as being main event material. Vince doesn't like fans like me, because I don't simply digest whatever shit he wants to dish it, like a lot of Vince marks on here do.

The midcard and the tag team division are exactly the same beast. They are filler. The only times there have been a particularly strong midcard is when there's been a good main event. Right now, the WWE has one bona fide top drawer main eventer in John Cena, two or three solid main eventers in Orton, HHH and maybe Batista, and a load of people who 10 years ago would have been in tag teams and the midcard. They need to be in the main event now, so the other things suffer.

None of that has anything to do with why we don't have competent and established Tag Teams in the WWE today. The lack of pairing of Teams in FCW is rather unacceptable. Among various other reasons, I can see why WWE is unhappy with the state of FCW.

Who has anyone else developed in the last ten years? AJ Styles is one of the most talented wrestlers in the world, but he isn't a star. Why? Because making stars is hard. If Vince did say that, he should probably note that of his current roster, only one, Paul Wight, arrived as a main eventer. He has made every single other guy on the roster.

By default.

There has been no serious competition for Vince since 2001. Don't give Vince the credit on that. It's rather easy to do if you are the only real wrestling company in the United States.

Name literally one wrestler in the last 6 years to main event a PPV in their debut year. The main eventers of tomorrow are in the midcard, the main eventers of today spent years there.

Who says that only "one year" constitutes "rushing someone to the Main Event"?

Guys used to spend a good 3-4 years in Midcard status before Main Eventing, unless they were brought over as a Main Eventer elsewhere. Now, they are Main Eventing after 1-3 years. To me, that is still rushing.

Brock Lesnar- debuted 2002, Main Evented 2002
Randy Orton- debuted 2002, Main Evented 2004
John Cena- debuted 2002, Main Evented 2005
Cody Rhodes- debuted 2007, Main Evented 2008
Ted Dibiase- debuted 2007, Main Evented 2008


There is absolutely zero reason why guys like Cody Rhodes and Ted Dibiase should be in a WWE Main Event in this day and age. It is inexcusable. And that has only shortened their draw as Main Eventers, putting them in Main Event status so early, when they should have been placed in Midcard Status for at least 4 years (given their age) before ever Main Eventing. They are entirely too young.

 

[Tastycles]

I'm not wrong. But if it makes you feel bigger thinking so, be my guest.

While you take the argument ad hominem, I'll actually just point out why you're wrong rather than inventing inferiority complexes that you have. My point is, and has always been, that the current tag champions situation is no different than it was at any non boom point in the history of the WWE, and that people are moaning about a problem that isn't there.

Absolutely not.

All Vince uses Tag Teams for is to get the wrestlers on each of the different brands to make his rosters look bigger than they really are.

Really? So you think two people make that much difference to the rosters. The fact that one of them belong on each brand means that you are saying that Vince, rather than just operating a talent share, would go to the extent of maintaining an entire division just for one extra person to appear on each brand?

The reason Jericho and Big Show appear on PPV's and defend the belts is because they are very established Upper Midcarders (occasional Main Eventers) and Vince wants to given them a payday.

Or is it because all but 3 tag teams in the last two years have been an abject failure. Nobody has cared about anybody in the division apart from Cryme Tyme, who are still together and have feuded with Show and Jericho, Miz and Morrison, who served their course and LEgacy, who just main evented a PPV. Given the choice between another Zack Ryder and Curt Hawkins esque boredom or a team that people care about, the choice was obvious. Do you think Cryme Tyme vs Hart Legacy would have had the interest to make Summerslam? Because I don't.

If Vince was really serious about Tag Team Wrestling, he would be creating more Tag Teams. Instead, he slaps a team together here and there (like he essentially did with Jericho and Big Show) to throw them on a show.

Since the beginning of 2008 regular teams have included Jimmy Wang Yang and Shannon Moore, Jesse and Festus, Deuce 'n' Domino, The Colons, Kofi Kingston and CM Punk, Santino Marella and Carlito, Hardcore Holly and Cody Rhodes, Ryder and Hawkins, Hornswoggle and Finlay, The Highlanders, Tommy Dreamer and Colin Delaney. None of those got 1% of the popularity or notority that the current tag champions have. Cryme Tyme will benefit a lot more from feuding with Jericho and Big Show then they would from beating Ryder and Hawkins for the tag titles.

When he is serious about Tag Team wrestling returning, we will see at least 3 or 4 more teams being established and placed on his shows. Until then, throwing a new tag team together like Mark Henry and MVP just for one month doesn't cut it. Especially since you know in advance that it isn't long term.

For tag wrestling to return, it would have had to be here in the first place. How do you know that MVP and Henry won't stay together for a while? Even if they don't, it doesn't matter, because as a money making initiative, having them face Jerishow is quite a better prospect than two teams that nobody care about.

Correct on all of the above. And why isn't there anybody in the Division? Simple. Because Vince doesn't take the Division seriously and nor is it a priority for him.

Why should it be a priority? Vince, and indeed all succesful promoters, have never taken tag or midcard divisions to be a priority, because they aren't. The only time that there have been strong tag teams is when there have been the strongest main eventers.

Vince has a lot of measures in place to develop Tag Teams. Especially FCW. If Vince was interested in growing the Tag Team Division, he would have new teams being formed with gimmicks in FCW. He doesn't. Why? Simple. We've been through this before.

All the teams he's debuted from development in the past two or three years - Deuce and Domino, Jesse and Festus, Ryder and HAwkins - have all been complete failures. Two of them even had gimmicks. When something doesn't work, you try something else, you don't keep repeating the same mistake over and over again. The wrestling audience isn't as patient as it used to be, you make an instant impact, or you're destined to nobody caring about you. Those three teams were all debuted and pushed, and yet none of them had any heat at all.

There are plenty of competent wrestlers who undoubtedly would make awesome teams together. I personally think for young guys starting out, that placing them in a Tag Team is the best way to develop talent. You get the most longetivity out of their careers, as well.

Name them, I'm not trying to put you on the spot, I'm interested.

Bret Hart
Shawn Michaels
Owen Hart
British Bulldog
John Morrison
Edge
Christian
Jeff Hardy
Matt Hardy
The Miz
Jacques Rougeau
Tito Santana
Rick Martel
The Big Boss Man
Crush from Demolition
Mabel from Men on a Mission

most of which went on to Upper Midcard/Main Event status.

So, in over 20 years of wrestling, you have come with a list that includes Krush, Big Daddy V, a load of career midcarders, and the Big Bossman who fought Hulk Hogsn for the WWF title before he joined a tag team.

I see your list and I raise you every single other upper midcarder from the past 20 years. I think my point stands that it isn't a primary development method.

Both rosters needed bolstering. Just with Jeff Hardy being gone, Smackdown actually needed more bolstering than Raw.

Right, so putting two Smackdown main eventers on Raw and Smackdown wouldn't really have helped Smackdown, would it?

However, having two established Upper Midcard Wrestlers like Jericho and Big Show would still solve that problem, since they could appear on both shows and attempt to disguise the lack of rosters.

Do you really think The Big Show's biweekly fight on Smackdown is enough to disguise a shallow roster? It's either that the problem is so small that it's not really there, or you are wrong.

So you're right. Nothing has changed. This was simply the purpose of why Edge and Jericho were given the belts ... and since Edge got injured, why Big Show was substituted as another Upper Midcarder in his place.

You're right, there was nobody else. The WWE weren't expecting anyone else to be in the story, so people were booked elsewhere. The only person on the roster with nothing to do was Big Show, so he replaced Edge. What would you have done when Edge got injured then? Teamed Jericho with Charlie Haas? Because that was the alternative.

Well, fact of the matter is that a Tag Team Championship has been defended on PPV for a number of years now. Mostly the World Tag Team Championship, however there have been PPV's where the WWE Tag Team Championship has been defended as well. This didn't just start happening when Jericho and Big Show captured the titles.

It's been defended on the last 5 PPVs in a row. The last time that there were 5 back to back tag title matches, be it World, WWE, either, both, was between Survivor Series 2003 and WrestleMania XX when there were two titles and brand specific PPVs, and when Evolution were around and was greatly helped by Kane and RVD, two random upper midcarders. The only teams from that era that are traditional teams are the Dudleys and La Resistance. The last time they were defended on PPV at all before the match Edge and Jericho won them was Unforgiven 2008.

Ross has already admitted that Vince is not a fan of Tag Team Wrestling on his blog, so I don't know if your purpose is to try and claim that he is, or what.

My purpose is to claim he never has been, nor has any decent promoter.

But Vince does not like Tag Team wrestling and pretty much all of the IWC accepts it. Your attempts at making the IWC think that putting the belts on Jericho and Big Show mean Vince is getting serious about Tag Team wrestling will not be taken seriously until Vince starts pairing and bringing up more Tag Teams up from FCW to spread across the rosters.

No, my point is that this is the best thing for the division. The titles are on PPV more, people care about Cryme Tyme more. There has never been a decent tag division in a wrestling popularity trough in North America. I've said that many times, and nobody has proved otherwise. Tag team wrestling has basically consisted of one or two half decent teams and loads of shit ones

Until then, its obvious Vince is only using Jericho and Big Show in their roles to get them on both shows.

Yes, Vince has created this massive conspiracy to get the almight Big Show on Smackdown for a big money match with JTG. Yes, that's why they're the champs.

The Brood had been in more Tag Team Matches together than the team of Test and D-Lo Brown, I guarantee it. They were a far more established team/faction than that duo.

The tag team in The Brood era was Christian and Gangrel, more often than not, and they're presence in the Undertaker segment gave more to that PPV than a throwaway tag defeat would have.

Or, as stated, he could have put Too Cool in there to go against Jarrett and Owen Hart.

He could have, had they existed. At the time Too Cool were the quasi homosexual unpopular Heat dwellers Too Much. I

However, as we covered, Vince really began shutting the Tag Team Division down around this particular PPV.

No he didn't. He never shut it down, it was nevere a powerhouse. Are you seriously trying to suggest that Bombastic Bob and Bodacious Bart was a good division? What rock solid tag teams were there at that point? New Age Outlaws, but they were trying Gunn as a singles guy, that's about it really. Tell me, what the fantastic tag division was in 1996? Men on a Mission? Exactly.

Prior to that PPV, there were still teams that had been solidified together, as opposed to people just slapped together. However, the Tag Team Division began getting shut down by Vince around this show.

However, prior to this show, there still was The New Age Outlaws (who Vince decided to split up), The Headbangers, Too Cool, Edge and Christian, British Bulldog and Owen Hart, Legion of Doom, The Smoking Gunns, The Body Donnas, The Godwinns, The Oddities, Kai en Tai, New Midnight Express, etc.

NAO split up because Billy Gunn was pushing 40, and he wanted to give him a singles shot, when it didn't work, they were teamed back up, Headbangers were injured, Too Cool were Too Much and weren't over, E&C didn't exist, Owen Hart was teaming with Jarrett, remember, LOD were old and had left the company, Smoking gunns were now in two tag teams... How many of those teams were over? Zero.

Are you trying to suggest that the status quo before, which was putting people randomly together because they were in stables or managed by the same people is any different from teaming people up because they have a shared goal.

all of which were established Tag Teams.

Not in 1999. Most had split, left the company, or were inactive.

We can agree on this.


I disagree on this, though. He went downhill at Wrestlemania 15. Then, things got a little better when The Dudleys were introduced .... then, things went downhill again.

Probably, since around 2002 (guesstimating), the Tag Team Division has been absolute shit.

Tag team wrestling is shit whenever the main event isn't popular. Its no coincidence that the tag team division suffered when Rock and Austin left because it means that the old upper midcarders have to step up, meaning the tag teamers have to become upper midcarders, which leaves the lower carders for the tag team division. Only the teams that are better than the sum of their parts like the Dudleys and Cryme Tyme survive.

To me, at least, who are the Champions don't tell the story. What tells the story to me of what type of effort Vince is putting in the Division is a simple snapshot of the number of Tag Teams in the company as well as the quality of those teams. As soon as Vince forms a Tag Team, he can't wait to split them up, which tells me he doesn't take the Division very seriously.

Because the audience doesn't take it seriously. Cryme Tyme are the most popular tag team in the WWE, and they haven't been split up. The teams that aren't popular are split, and are often then feuded to see if they can cut it as a singles star.

Plain and simple fact is that IF Vince wanted a serious Tag Team Division, we would have one. But since Vince follows "The Audience of One" and knows that wrestling fans will put up with whatever shit he throws on the air, because they are addicts, then he's going to do whatever he wants to do.

Or is he going to do what makes money? Has the lack of a tag division remotely affected the WWE's financials? No. Vince doesn't book for an audience of one, he runs it as a business, and considering he is a billionaire based on promoting wrestling and you aren't, I would suggest he knows more about that than you. It would be wonderful if there was a decent tag division, but if the talent isn't there, then what do you expect him to do. How many of the teams that he split had any chemistry or popularity? Miz and Morrison, who have gone on to better things.

I could argue that Singles Matches on the Undercard also have no bearing on an event drawing money.

How many buys was Drew McIntire vs R Truth responsible for bringing in?

The Undercard, as a whole, is support. I will NOT purchase a PPV solely based on the Main Event. There has to be a remotely decent undercard or I won't spend the money on it.

I know, December to Dismember proves that, but you don't need a tag match for a decent undercard, and at the moment, the tag teams the WWE has don't make for a good undercard.

However, what Tag Team wrestling serves is a breather for the fans, from the basic One on One Singles Matches, which quite frankly, get boring after seeing one after the other.

But it rarely is that, there's usually a gimmick match of some sort of another, a tag match is just one option.

That's what I am here for. Just wanted to make sure you weren't implying that because the card had no Tag Teams wrestling, that this was the reason the show did so well, like you actually seemed to be implying.

No, I said it had no bearing on success, which it does show.

I'd like to see both Singles Wrestling and Tag Team Wrestling. Great Gimmicks and Entertaining Characters can always trump a good wrestling match, any day. The classic example of this has always been Hulk Hogan.

What would you rather watch, The midnight Rockers vs the Headbangers or Jerishow vs MVP/WSM? The gimmick has to be something people want, and only one tag team has acheived that recently, Cryme Tyme.

So find an entertaining tag team that can put on a remotely competent match, and I am happy to see it, because it provides variance to me from watching one singles match after another, which I get tired of.

Well exactly, find one, because I don't think there are any around in North America right now.

I am a person that likes variety in my shows. Not everyone out there is solely entertained by watching 3-4 star singles matches for the entire duration of the PPV.

Good for you, but you aren't going to get that quality needed out of the teams we've seen recently.

I think you can work both on a show, to be frank. Jericho and Big Show are two established Singles workers. There is absolutely zero reason these two should be in the Tag Team Division at this point, other than trying to cover up for their lack of rosters, as we discussed.

They could, quite easily, have put Jericho in a programme with Batista and Big Show in one with MVP or Mark Henry, but they didn't, that would have given them two PPV matches on a card rather than one, which would surely cover a lack of roster.

I think the problem is also WWE putting the same guys on PPVs over and over again, as opposed to varying their cards.

Yes, because putting people that people want to see on a PPV card is a terrible idea. You're wrong anyway. Not including the Royal Rumble, everyone except Chris Masters, Festus, Charlie Haas, Hart Legacy, Kung Fu Naki and Jesse from Smackdown and Raw have appeared on a PPV in the last year. So unless you are a jobber, or have debuted recently, you get a shot.

Providing variety to the fans is one of the company's biggest detriments at the moment. Instead on a WWE PPV, you get the same guys, featured in the same matches over and over and over again. Why not vary the cards a little and get some different guys on the shows? Rotate them around.

They do rotate. Who, apart from the absolute bankers, has been on every PPV recently. Do you really think that the audience want John Cena to be rested for a PPV? When Edge wasn't on one, everyone shat their pants.

Couldn't tell you. I am sure they are out there on the Indys like the Brisco Brothers, however I don't follow Indy Wrestling anymore. That still shouldn't negate the point that Tag Teams can be formed of competent workers once they reach FCW. The same was done with Morrison and Mercury. Those two didn't team together until they got in WWE training. WWE put them together before they debuted.

Right, but the WWE have put loads of people together like Deuce and Domino, Jesse and Festus, and they haven't worked. They could keep flogging that dead horse forever, or they could try something fresh, like teaming established stars.

There are competent wrestlers out there who undoubtedly would make great tag team workers IF WWE would take the initiative and put them together. The fact that they aren't doing this should be a dead giveaway that they don't consider Tag Team wrestling a priority.

No it isn't a priority, but it shouldn't be. Women's wrestling isn't a priority either. The tag titles are probably below all three main titles and the two midcard titles in terms of public interest, so, no, the WWE shouldn't be focussing on their number 6 division.

Besides any of this, again nobody is going to take you seriously that WWE is getting serious about Tag Team Wrestling again until we start seeing some Tag Teams featured on WWE TV for the long haul. As the saying goes, "the proof is in the pudding".

They will never get serious about it, because they never have been. It has always been an afterthought, it didn't even get on every PPV when there were three titles and four PPVs. The entertaining tag division is a by product of a top notch main event, and the WWE should be focussing on acheiving that. If they do, the other cogs will fall into place.

Because sadly, TNA takes a lot of its cues from WWE Television, which is a big mistake, as far as I'm concerned.

They're making money with a similar size to old ECW, that in itself should be proof that copying WWE is the way to success.

This has come in play with the reduction of Tag Teams, the elimination of managers (James Mitchell and Jacqueline), and the elimination of Heel Commentators (Don West).

The show hasn't suffered at the loss of any of those, with the possible exception of Mitchell.

If anything, Carter should be producing a polar opposite product of what WWE is producing today, not trying to mimic it. That is TNA's problem.

TNA and ROH started at the same time. One of them copied WWE and is a global brand that makes money. The other didn't and, by many accounts, has only months left without significant financial investment.

Agreed. Which is why he needs more Tag Teams in the Division.

The tag teams he had were shite. He is trying to make more on ECW. Seriously, compare the number of tag matches on that brand to everywhere else. If Tyler Reks isn't in a regular team soon, I'd be suprised.

Vince isn't a fan of Tag Team Wrestling. I don't know how many times this has to be repeated to drill it into your head. Furthermore, I know very few people who are actually going to agree with you.

Well my reps encouraging me to continue in throwing you off your high horse would suggest otherwise on the agreement front, but I'm sure you've been repped too. I know Vince doesn't care about Tag wrestling, at no point have I said he did. What I am saying is firstly that he never has cared about it, and secondly that the current tag situation is the best possible thing for it. No tag team has done anything to suggest that they could maintain as much of an interest as Jerishow, so they haven't been given a shot.

The tag title has been on PPV more times in a row than it has been for 6 years. I'm not implying that Jerishow is some sort of dawning of a new era of tag wrestling, I'm saying its a better option than just giving it to a tag team to have a load of lacklustre fued. Would it be any better if Cryme Tyme held the title for 200 days and fought a load of shithouse teams like Miz and Morrison did?

Vince occasionally places DX together to sell DX merchandise: T-shirts, hats, and glow sticks. If he is going to resurrect DX, then obviously he needs a Tag Team to feud with them. In this case, it is Legacy. If DX wasn't on the card together, then you can probably guarantee that Rhodes and Dibiase wouldn't be either. Instead, they would simply be Orton's lackeys and interfere in his match.

Legacy were on PPV cards before, I don't see why they wouldn't be now, although obvs not main eventing. Cryme Tyme and Legacy have had more exposure from their feuds with these upper midcarders than they ever would have against each other or against lesser teams.

As far as Jericho and Big Show, we've already discussed why they are on the PPV's .... because they are his two biggest Upper Midcarders who he wants to give them a payday while having a match against another two pair of Midcarders, most recently Henry and MVP.

They feuded against Cryme Tyme and Legacy first though, didn't they, there's no tag teams left.

How long were they champions for? One month?

9 months. The fact you thought it was one kind of proved the point that they weren't very good at generating interest doesn't it.

To do the same thing with them that they are doing with Jericho and Big Show .... hiding the roster depth.

I'm going to say this one more time. When WWE actually gets 3-4 established Tag Teams, and keeps them in a team for the long-term, we will know that Vince is actually investing something in the Tag Team Division. Until then, nope.

So last year, when they had Jesse and Festus, Ryder and Hawkins, Miz and Morrison, Cryme Tyme, Deuce and Domino and Shannon Moore and Jimmy Wang Yang, Cade and Murdoch, Holly and Rhodes, London and Kendrick all of whom had at least 6 months experience, the tag team division was in a better shape than it is now? Thats 3-4 established teams, and they were all shit, so he's trying something else.

And that was a joke.

Do you think if their opponents were NOT DX, that they still would have main evented the PPV? That was a joke enough as it was seeing them main event a PPV. Keep in mind that just because Vince tries to tell me that they are Main Event material, doesn't mean that I buy them as being main event material. Vince doesn't like fans like me, because I don't simply digest whatever shit he wants to dish it, like a lot of Vince marks on here do.

They've just had a feud with two main eventers. Whether or not you think they are main eventers is irrelevant, they are a tag team that has had attention vested in them, something you said wasn't happening.

None of that has anything to do with why we don't have competent and established Tag Teams in the WWE today. The lack of pairing of Teams in FCW is rather unacceptable. Among various other reasons, I can see why WWE is unhappy with the state of FCW.

It has quite a lot to do with it. I am repeating myself over and over again here, but when has there ever been a competent tag and midcard division without a good main event? Its far more important that FCW is used to find tomorrow's main eventers than it's tag teams.

By default.

There has been no serious competition for Vince since 2001. Don't give Vince the credit on that. It's rather easy to do if you are the only real wrestling company in the United States.

But he's still making stars. He made Cena and Batista, he made Orton, he made Hardy, he's making Punk. They are still the only major company, and they are still making stars. You said they weren't, I showed they were, and now your saying they're only making stars because it is easy for them. So you've contradicted yourself.

Who says that only "one year" constitutes "rushing someone to the Main Event"?

Guys used to spend a good 3-4 years in Midcard status before Main Eventing, unless they were brought over as a Main Eventer elsewhere. Now, they are Main Eventing after 1-3 years. To me, that is still rushing.

You're completely wrong...

Brock Lesnar- debuted 2002, Main Evented 2002
Randy Orton- debuted 2002, Main Evented 2004
John Cena- debuted 2002, Main Evented 2005
Cody Rhodes- debuted 2007, Main Evented 2008
Ted Dibiase- debuted 2007, Main Evented 2008

Hulk Hogan - debuted December 1983, Main evented January 1984
Randy Savage - debuted 1985, main evented 1988
The Rock - debuted 1996, main evented 1998
Stone Cold Steve Austin - debuted 1995, main evented 1997
Mick Foley - debuted 1996, main evented 1998
HHH - debuted 1996, Main evented 1999
Razor Ramon - debuted 1992, main evented 1993
Diesel - debuted 1993, main evented 1994
Ultimate Warrior - debuted 1987, main evented 1990

Seriously, just admit that quick pushes have always happened.

There is absolutely zero reason why guys like Cody Rhodes and Ted Dibiase should be in a WWE Main Event in this day and age. It is inexcusable. And that has only shortened their draw as Main Eventers, putting them in Main Event status so early, when they should have been placed in Midcard Status for at least 4 years (given their age) before ever Main Eventing. They are entirely too young.

No they aren't. Plenty of people have been put in the main event young and returned from it. Randy Orton was given the world title in 2004, then went back down and returned strong in 2007, its easy to come back from anything if your good enough. The talent of Rhodes and DiBiase will cause them to sink or swim, and nothing else. Michaels main evented Survivor Series 1992, yet still managed to have quite a successful career.

The status quo has remained exactly the same in the WWE in terms of development and tag team wrestling, the only thing that has changed is the pedantry of the fans.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

We're going to have to do this in two separate posts because the text was too long. So here it goes:

While you take the argument ad hominem, I'll actually just point out why you're wrong rather than inventing inferiority complexes that you have. My point is, and has always been, that the current tag champions situation is no different than it was at any non boom point in the history of the WWE, and that people are moaning about a problem that isn't there.

Bull Fucking Shit. There has never been such a lack of Tag Teams in WWE history compared to today. Never.

We have:

Jerishow
Legacy
Cryme Tyme
Hart Dynasty
Kozlov/Jackson


These are the 5 Tag Teams that WWE has. And it's interesting to note that there is only one Face Tag Team in the whole batch.

Of course the key difference is as opposed to the Tag Teams actually feuding with each other, they are basically kept separated from each other and don't really compete with one another. So if you are going to have a Tag Team Division, you A) Need more Face Tag Teams and B) Should actually do a better job assigning teams to each show. Raw and Smackdown should have at least 3 Tag Teams a piece, with ECW having two .... if we are going to enforce the Roster Split.


Compare these teams to the Hogan Era:

(1990)
Demolition
Hart Foundation
The Rockers
The Bushwhackers
Rhythm N Blues
The Orient Express


Compare that to the New Generation:

(1996)
Smoking Gunns
Body Donnas
Owen Hart/British Bulldog
The Godwinns
The New Rockers
Men on a Mission
Jacob and Eli Blu


Compared to the Attitude Era:

(1999)
Owen Hart and Jeff Jarrett
The Hardy Boyz
The Acolytes
The New Age Outlaws
Too Cool
Sexual Chocolate Mark Henry and DLo Brown
The Brood


Compared to the Post Attitude Era

(2003)
Los Guerreros
La Resistance
Dudley Boys
World's Greatest Tag Team
The Basham Brothers
Hurricane and Rosey (Superheroes)
FBI


So no, the Tag Team Division was clearly much more stacked in years past compared to today, and was also clearly in ten times better shape in all previous Eras compared to today, as well.

Your attempt to argue for the sake of having an argument with me has failed on all fronts. As I stated earlier, the Proof is in the Pudding.

Now you can argue how good or how awful any of those teams were, and that is your personal preference (or attempt to discredit the data just thrown at you). But the Division was clearly more stacked in all previous Eras with longer term, more credible teams than what we have today.

So, next .....

Really? So you think two people make that much difference to the rosters. The fact that one of them belong on each brand means that you are saying that Vince, rather than just operating a talent share, would go to the extent of maintaining an entire division just for one extra person to appear on each brand?

Never said Vince was going to keep an entire division in existence just so one extra person can appear on a show.

Rather, he wants the Tag Team Champions in place, because clearly he doesn't want to get rid of the division completely, or else fans would be down his throat.

However, he specifically selected Jericho/Edge originally so yes, they could appear on both shows. His rosters are spread so thin as it is, it only makes sense. And of course since Edge got injured, he just went with Big Show instead.

Notice how these two teams rarely ever feud with any of the few established Tag Teams on Raw or Smackdown anyway. Instead, they just butt themselves in whatever is going on with the Guest Host on Raw.

They also gave away a match between DX and Jerishow for Free on Raw which was incredibly stupid, as they should have saved that match for a PPV. But oh, well. That's WWE logic for ya.

Or is it because all but 3 tag teams in the last two years have been an abject failure.

If anything is a failure, it is the fault of the Creative Department for not putting the effort into the division or the actual teams to make it a success.

If John Morrison was a failure, it clearly wouldn't be because of John Morrison, as he has talent. It would be the fault of the Creative Team for not pushing him properly or placing him in meaningful programs.

WWE obviously places all their effort into the Singles Division and basically no effort into the Tag Team Division. So I wonder why it wouldn't be a success (sarcasm)?

The Creative Team should be receiving 95% of the blame in any and all circumstances that arise on WWE Television. They control everything. And Vince is at the Head of it all. So if anyone wonders why I blame the Creative Team for just about everything that goes wrong on WWE today and why I blame Vince for just about the entire product .... it's because I know the right people to hold accountable.

Nobody has cared about anybody in the division apart from Cryme Tyme, who are still together and have feuded with Show and Jericho, Miz and Morrison, who served their course and LEgacy, who just main evented a PPV. Given the choice between another Zack Ryder and Curt Hawkins esque boredom or a team that people care about, the choice was obvious. Do you think Cryme Tyme vs Hart Legacy would have had the interest to make Summerslam? Because I don't.

You are putting the cart before the horse here.

In order for people to actually care about a certain team, you have to actually put the effort into making them care, and provide reasons to do so.

Vince could very easily get people to care about the Hart Dynasty. However, he has to first place them in meaningful programs and angles to get the people to care.

People don't care about Tag Teams as much because Vince really hasn't given them any reason to care. People in the IWC throw a fit because they are better educated to what the Tag Team Division once was and what it meant to the company. However, other mindless fans just prove Vince correct when he can spoon feed them whatever shit he wants to and they will accept it.

So yes, Cryme Tyme vs Hart Dynasty could have had the interest to make SummerSlam had Vince bothered actually putting an effort into having these two teams feud with one another.

Teams aren't going to get over alone, based solely on their wrestling. It is Creative's job to get them over and to get the fans to care.

Since the beginning of 2008 regular teams have included Jimmy Wang Yang and Shannon Moore, Jesse and Festus, Deuce 'n' Domino, The Colons, Kofi Kingston and CM Punk, Santino Marella and Carlito, Hardcore Holly and Cody Rhodes, Ryder and Hawkins, Hornswoggle and Finlay, The Highlanders, Tommy Dreamer and Colin Delaney. None of those got 1% of the popularity or notority that the current tag champions have.

What's your point?

Certainly Jericho and Big Show are going to get more of a reaction, as they have been established stars for well over a decade.

My point is that as short as the WWE is on Upper Midcarders and Main Eventers, these two would be much better served in those divisions as opposed to the Tag Team Division, which could be better utilized for up and coming talent.

You clearly want to blame the above listed Tag Teams themselves for not getting over. I blame Creative for not investing the time in the division, or the teams themselves, to actually get them over with the crowd.

I'm not budging with my thoughts on that point, so it is best to move on to something else, because you aren't going to get me to change my mind on that.

Cryme Tyme will benefit a lot more from feuding with Jericho and Big Show then they would from beating Ryder and Hawkins for the tag titles.

Yeah, feuding with Jericho and Big Show did absolute wonders for them, when they feuded two months ago, now didn't it?

They aren't any more over now than before they feuded with Jerishow.

As far as Ryder and Hawkins .... again, a team can only go as far as Creative is willing to invest the time into them.

Nine out of ten times, the problem always comes down to talent not being given opportunities to get over on the mic. And that was Creative's problem with these two. Their wrestling abilities were fine. And now low and behold, look at how well Ryder is doing when Creative puts a little effort into any given talent. Now, if only they would have done that back then when he and Hawkins were paired together.

What's next .....

For tag wrestling to return, it would have had to be here in the first place. How do you know that MVP and Henry won't stay together for a while?

Give me a break.

Even if they don't, it doesn't matter,

You clearly know they aren't going to.

because as a money making initiative, having them face Jerishow is quite a better prospect than two teams that nobody care about.

The problem is that you and Creative are on the same page. Which is a scary thought. You aren't in the mindset of developing talent. Rather, you are interested in preserving the status quo.

You should be constantly thinking of ways and utilizing the opportunities available to develop new fresh faces to keep people entertained.

Why should it be a priority? Vince, and indeed all succesful promoters, have never taken tag or midcard divisions to be a priority, because they aren't.

Well, you have basically killed just about any shred of credibility you had with this ignorant statement.

"Midcards aren't a priority" Tastycles says.

And you wonder why WWE has such a stale main event problem and why we keep seeing the same guys wrestling each other one PPV after another.

Even Vince McMahon himself was frustrated with his lack of ability to create new stars.

Now, if only he was concentrating these past few years on that Midcard that you say doesn't matter and shouldn't be a priority.

The only time that there have been strong tag teams is when there have been the strongest main eventers.

Duh.

Main Eventers are always going to be strong because more emphasis is placed on them then anywhere else.

Name some Main Eventers who you don't consider to be strong, that also did not have strong tag teams, as well.

All the teams he's debuted from development in the past two or three years - Deuce and Domino, Jesse and Festus, Ryder and HAwkins - have all been complete failures.

Creative's fault. Not theirs.

I love how so many people thinks it's the fault of the wrestlers themselves as opposed to the Creative Team. Although it was no surprise to me since I am familiar with television production, it obviously was a surprise to many people how scripted WWE television is. If anything, that should have been an eye-opener when that Raw before Mania script was leaked in how much control the Creative Department has over the programs. Yet despite that, people like you still place the blame on the wrestlers themselves.

How the Hell are they going to get over with the audience UNLESS the Creative Team provides them with opportunities to actually get over? You aren't going to get over with the audience based solely on ring skills. It doesn't work that way. And if that's what you think, you have been completely ignorant to why the most successful wrestlers have actually been successful.

Two of them even had gimmicks. When something doesn't work, you try something else, you don't keep repeating the same mistake over and over again. The wrestling audience isn't as patient as it used to be, you make an instant impact, or you're destined to nobody caring about you. Those three teams were all debuted and pushed, and yet none of them had any heat at all.

Is that the team's fault, or is Creative's fault for not allowing them opportunities to get their gimmicks over? Choice is rather clear to me.

I personally thought Jesse and Festus was an awful idea, so again, do I blame Jesse and Festus? No. I blame the Creative team for giving them such a lousy gimmick.

Deuce N Domino I liked. And looking at their work in OVW, there were a lot of spots they did in their matches there that WWE did not have them do on Smackdown. Plus, Cherry was far better utilized in OVW as their valet as she was on Smackdown with them.

Name them, I'm not trying to put you on the spot, I'm interested.

Good Tag Teams that WWE could sign from the Indys?

Like I said, I really don't follow Indy Wrestling anymore like I used to. However, I have no doubt in my mind that teams are out there AND teams are waiting to be formed.

MNM for example, was a great Tag Team in WWE. They never teamed until WWE actually placed them together while they were in Developmental.

Teams don't always pop out of nowhere. They are actually placed together while in wrestling school and are looked at from there. One has to be an idiot not to think that there are great wrestlers out there who would make great tag teams that simply need to be paired together.

How about the Colons for starters. There was absolutely zero reason they needed to be broken up.

Nonetheless, examples of available past tag teams and teams from the Indys that I am aware of:

The Briscoe Brothers
3 Minute Warning
Gemini Trojans

So, in over 20 years of wrestling, you have come with a list that includes Krush, Big Daddy V, a load of career midcarders, and the Big Bossman who fought Hulk Hogsn for the WWF title before he joined a tag team.

I never indicated that every tag team wrestler was going to make it to the Main Event. Not everyone is Main Event material.

However, it does serve the purpose of elevating people to the Mid and Upper Midcard.

BTW, you seem to be ignoring a majority of the list of names. So let's repeat those names again:

Bret Hart
Shawn Michaels
Owen Hart
British Bulldog
John Morrison
Edge
Christian
Jeff Hardy
Matt Hardy
The Miz
Zack Ryder

I see your list and I raise you every single other upper midcarder from the past 20 years. I think my point stands that it isn't a primary development method.

It is not only a developmental method if used properly, it is also a way to expand wrestler's careers to get the most out of them. Eventually, fans are going to get bored of certain performers being Singles competitors for a decade or so.

Wrestler X and Wrestler Y are both 23 years old.

We debut Wrestler X and Y in a Tag Team for their first 2 years with the company.

Then, we split them up and place them in the Mid Card Division for another 3 years. They are now 28 years old. It is in this stage where they are awarded the US and/or IC titles.

We then elevate them to the Upper Midcard for another 2 years. They are now 30.

Now, if they are ready, they are then propelled to the Main Event.


So instead of keeping them in Singles Action the entire duration of their career, they instead had an opportunity to serve the Tag Team Division for two years, hone their skills, get some recognition as Tag Team Champions to establish their credibility ... and then move them on to Singles action ... where they will be taken seriously since they would have hopefully served as Tag Team Champions before moving on.

Goal should be for WWE to develop their talent and establish their credibility. I am happy to see them finally taking steps in that direction as they have done a splendid job with Miz and Morrison, both of which have followed the roadmap I indicated, and both of which are seen as credible by the WWE audience, having both been Tag Team Champions, AND now having each held a Singles Mid Card title.

They put their time in the Tag Team Division, and have entertained the audience as a Tag Team. Now WWE should have had a replacement young tag team ready to go to take Miz and Morrison's place.

As stated, WWE should have a bare minimum of 3 Tag Teams on Raw, 3 Tag Teams on Smackdown, and 2 Tag Teams on ECW IF they wish to continue doing the roster split.

Whenever one team is split up, another should be ready to step in from WWE Developmental to take their place.

Right now, all I see are:

Raw
Jerishow
Legacy


Smackdown
Cryme Tyme
Hart Dynasty


ECW
Kozlov and Jackson


WWE really needs at least 3 more Tag Teams at this juncture, all of which should be Faces, for a strong Tag Team Division. It should be their job to pair people together while in Developmental and develop them as a Tag Team before bringing them up to the Main Roster.

Right, so putting two Smackdown main eventers on Raw and Smackdown wouldn't really have helped Smackdown, would it?

I don't know what you are talking about.

You asked me about Batista going to Smackdown, and I mentioned that Smackdown needed another Main Eventer since Jeff Hardy left.

However, Big Show and Jericho still appear on both Raw and Smackdown, so they serve Vince's purpose of having Upper Midcard talent on both shows. Plus, they now have a Full time Main Eventer.

Both Raw and Smackdown need help in the Upper Midcard. However, Smackdown desperately needed help in the Main Event and needed a Face in particular. Which is why Batista was sent over ... since Undertaker seems to be a cripple anyway.

Do you really think The Big Show's biweekly fight on Smackdown is enough to disguise a shallow roster? It's either that the problem is so small that it's not really there, or you are wrong.

Does it solve the problem? No.

Does it help the problem? Yes.

You're right, there was nobody else. The WWE weren't expecting anyone else to be in the story, so people were booked elsewhere. The only person on the roster with nothing to do was Big Show, so he replaced Edge. What would you have done when Edge got injured then? Teamed Jericho with Charlie Haas? Because that was the alternative.

No. If that is what you think I would have done, then you haven't been paying attention.

I would have actually given the Tag Team Titles to an established team like Legacy back when they faced Jericho and Big Show two or three PPV's ago. Not a makeshift team like Jericho and Big Show.

Then, if Legacy had another Face tag team to feud with, I would have done that. After that, I would have had Legacy begin a feud and drop the belts to Cryme Tyme.

Elevating talent. Not giving the titles to people who don't need them like Jericho and Big Show.

It's been defended on the last 5 PPVs in a row. The last time that there were 5 back to back tag title matches, be it World, WWE, either, both, was between Survivor Series 2003 and WrestleMania XX when there were two titles and brand specific PPVs, and when Evolution were around and was greatly helped by Kane and RVD, two random upper midcarders. The only teams from that era that are traditional teams are the Dudleys and La Resistance. The last time they were defended on PPV at all before the match Edge and Jericho won them was Unforgiven 2008.

And again, that is more so because of who is actually holding the belts as opposed to simply because it is the Tag Team Championship itself. Vince wants to fit Jericho and Big Show on the card and that is a way to get both of them on that card.

I'm happy to see the Tag Title being defended, but Vince's goal is clearly not to put emphasis on the Tag Team Division. He's doing it because he knows that Jericho and Show are competent in the ring, wants to give them a pay day, and that each of them serve their purpose by being two established Upper Midcarders who can hop ship each week as Vince needs them.

My purpose is to claim he never has been, nor has any decent promoter.

There was clearly emphasis on the Tag Team Division back in the Hogan Era, New Generation Era, and even the Attitude Era when the Dudleys, Edge and Christian, and the Hardyz were all Tag Teams.

There has never been as much of a de-emphasis on Tag Teams in WWE history as today in The PG Era.

So I guess Vince isn't a decent promoter in your eyes then, since he did provide an emphasis on Tag Team Wrestling at several points in WWE history.

Again, Jim Ross says that Tag Team Wrestling isn't the priority today compared to how it used to be years ago, so I really don't know what you are trying to accomplish other than simply be argumentative. You aren't getting anywhere. Anyone with a set of eyes can notice the difference between Tag Team Wrestling today compared to what it used to be, except you apparently. That is why so many people are upset. They actually SEE the difference.

No, my point is that this is the best thing for the division. The titles are on PPV more

Agreed. That's a good thing.

people care about Cryme Tyme more.

Bullshit. People don't care any more about Cryme Tyme now than they did before they had their PPV match with Jerishow. Maybe it would have been nice to have them feud with them longer then a month, do some angles on TV, or something other than simply have a match.

There has never been a decent tag division in a wrestling popularity trough in North America.

Maybe it hasn't come up to your standard, but mine were met just fine with all of the other Eras I mentioned. Some were more satisfactory to me than others .... but all of which were more acceptable than today.

And for you to imply that the Hart Foundation, The Rockers, Demolition, and Orient Express couldn't produce decent matches or weren't decent tag teams is laughable.

I've said that many times, and nobody has proved otherwise. Tag team wrestling has basically consisted of one or two half decent teams and loads of shit ones

And why do you think that is? Obviously, there is more of an emphasis on Singles Wrestling as opposed to Tag Team Wrestling. However, there are loads of shit singles wrestlers, too. So I am not sure what your point is.

I disagree with your notion however that there are only ever 1 or 2 half decent tag teams at any one time. I also find it ironic that you can't admit that there were ever "Good" tag teams at any point in time, either.

So let's try that again. Typically at any point in time, there have been two or three GOOD Tag Teams, one or two halfway decent teams, and the rest ranging from okay to not so good.

Yes, Vince has created this massive conspiracy to get the almight Big Show on Smackdown for a big money match with JTG. Yes, that's why they're the champs.

So when you are losing the argument, now you have to resort to the "outrageous conspiracy" tactic. Too much.

You are the one using the word "conspiracy" in a piss poor attempt to make it sound like it is a ridiculous concept that Show and Jericho are champs solely for the fact that they can appear on both shows as Upper Midcarders. In reality, it is a very plausible concept, and one that I feel is a rather obvious one.

The tag team in The Brood era was Christian and Gangrel, more often than not, and they're presence in the Undertaker segment gave more to that PPV than a throwaway tag defeat would have.

It was Christian and Gangrel BEFORE Edge turned Heel. After Edge turned Heel, it was primarily Edge and Christian with Gangrel managing.

And who says they couldn't have done both the tag match, as well as did the segment with the Boss Man.

Hell, where were the Acolytes? They could have had a Tag Match, or have done the spot with the Cage.

Your attempt to claim that there were no other quality tag teams that could have challenged Jarrett and Owen Hart other than DLo Brown and Test was another fail.

No he didn't. He never shut it down, it was never a powerhouse. Are you seriously trying to suggest that Bombastic Bob and Bodacious Bart was a good division?

They were one tag team in a division. I never claimed that they were the greatest team, but they were an acceptable one. Again, Creative should have done more to try to get them over. They should have never gone the route they did with the NWA Tag Team Championship, as the WWE fans could have cared less. Again, Creative's fault.

What rock solid tag teams were there at that point? New Age Outlaws, but they were trying Gunn as a singles guy, that's about it really. Tell me, what the fantastic tag division was in 1996? Men on a Mission? Exactly.

I already listed the 1996 Tag Teams, and I got news for ya. Men on a Mission wasn't the only tag team.

Smoking Gunns
Body Donnas
Owen Hart/British Bulldog
The Godwinns
The New Rockers
Men on a Mission



The Tag Team Division is a smaller Division than the Singles Division. I thought that would be rather obvious. So why are you expecting the entire Division to be perfect when it is clear as day that the Singles Division is anything but perfect?

NAO split up because Billy Gunn was pushing 40, and he wanted to give him a singles shot, when it didn't work, they were teamed back up, Headbangers were injured, Too Cool were Too Much and weren't over, E&C didn't exist, Owen Hart was teaming with Jarrett, remember, LOD were old and had left the company, Smoking gunns were now in two tag teams... How many of those teams were over? Zero.

First of all, Edge and Christian did exist at Mania 15, and The Acolytes existed as well.

And I hate to say it, but even Too Much would have been more over than the slapped together tag team of Test and DLo Brown for that match.

So what's next?

Are you trying to suggest that the status quo before, which was putting people randomly together because they were in stables or managed by the same people is any different from teaming people up because they have a shared goal.

Putting people together just because they were in stables together or managed by the same manager was NOT the status quo. Yes, it happened, but either the company used to turn them around and given them a new gimmick to make it work (more often than not like Rhythm N Blues) or they occasionally went with it anyway (like Haku and Andre). However, that was NOT the norm for Tag Teams back in the Hogan Era, New Generation Era, or the Attitude Era.

Not in 1999. Most had split, left the company, or were inactive.

I was talking about the Period BEFORE Mania 15, the same topic you were supposedly talking about. I guess BEFORE is open to interpretation. I think we both agreed that the Tag Team Division was not good by the time Mania 15 rolled around, but they still could have had a team like The Acolytes or Edge and Christian face Jarrett and Owen Hart, instead of the team of Test and DLo Brown.

Tag team wrestling is shit whenever the main event isn't popular. Its no coincidence that the tag team division suffered when Rock and Austin left because it means that the old upper midcarders have to step up, meaning the tag teamers have to become upper midcarders, which leaves the lower carders for the tag team division. Only the teams that are better than the sum of their parts like the Dudleys and Cryme Tyme survive.

And an unpopular Main Event comes down to Vince and Creative for not doing their jobs to develop talent, then.

If you are constantly in a state of developing talent, you aren't going to have a problem, as there will always be someone or several people in a stage of development.

When you solely rely on the Main Event and let everything else go to Hell, like Vince has done these past couple years, that is when you start experiencing problems.

Lazy Booking is what hurt Vince these past couple years.

Because the audience doesn't take it seriously. Cryme Tyme are the most popular tag team in the WWE, and they haven't been split up. The teams that aren't popular are split, and are often then feuded to see if they can cut it as a singles star.

The audience will take it seriously IF WWE takes it seriously. WWE has to put the effort into the Division first, to show the audience that the Tag Team Division should be taken seriously.

That is just like if an analyst verbally says that "Smackdown is the A Show".

Well, do you think the fans are going to take his words seriously, or do they have "to be shown that Smackdown is the A Show" by placing effort into improving the show?

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

What would you rather watch, The midnight Rockers vs the Headbangers or Jerishow vs MVP/WSM? The gimmick has to be something people want, and only one tag team has acheived that recently, Cryme Tyme.

I'd rather watch The Rockers take on the Headbangers then see Jerishow wrestle MVP/Mark Henry, to be honest.

I'd rather see Jericho and Show in singles action instead of Tag Team action, while allowing new stars an opportunity to shine as a Tag Team.

Good for you, but you aren't going to get that quality needed out of the teams we've seen recently.

Again, that's because Creative and Developmental aren't placing emphasis on the Division. Interesting how you keep going around in circles, here.

However, not all of your Tag Teams need to be all-stars. People like you are way too obsessed over quality, when the general public could care less about the quality that you are looking for.

They could, quite easily, have put Jericho in a program with Batista and Big Show in one with MVP or Mark Henry, but they didn't, that would have given them two PPV matches on a card rather than one, which would surely cover a lack of roster.

I was operating under the hypothetical situation that Jericho and Big Show would drop the titles, that they could still serve in Singles Matches, while allowing a Tag Team match to take place elsewhere on the card, without them in that equation.

I was not indicating any desire to have Jericho and Show wrestle twice in one night. That would be ludicrous.

Yes, because putting people that people want to see on a PPV card is a terrible idea.

Not that it's a terrible idea, however when you have the same guys wrestling each other over and over, without giving other stars opportunity to step up to the plate, then yes it is a problem. Even Jericho admitted as such recently in an interview that was posted on Wrestlezone. So go and argue with him.

You're wrong anyway.

And you're funny.

They do rotate. Who, apart from the absolute bankers, has been on every PPV recently. Do you really think that the audience want John Cena to be rested for a PPV? When Edge wasn't on one, everyone shat their pants.

Yep. I advocate for John Cena to be given 2-3 PPV's off a year.

Everyone from the Upper Midcard on down should be rotated to give all superstars who are ready for PPV a shot at performing. The goal should be to get the audience to care about everyone on the roster, not just a select few.

Right, but the WWE have put loads of people together like Deuce and Domino, Jesse and Festus, and they haven't worked. They could keep flogging that dead horse forever, or they could try something fresh, like teaming established stars.

And we've already established why they didn't work. Jesse and Festus was a horrendous gimmick. That was Creative's fault. They assigned them the gimmick.

Deuce N Domino was actually a good gimmick, in my eyes. However, apparently Domino's wrestling wasn't up to WWE's standards, so they split the team.

Who do you fault? Developmental. They shouldn't have been assigned to the main roster unless they were ready.

None of this was because Tag Teams "just can't get over" like you are trying to make it out to be.

No it isn't a priority, but it shouldn't be.

There are different levels of priority. When I say it should be a priority, I am not indicating that it should hold the same importance as the Main Event, or Mid Card titles. However, it should be more of a priority than what it is.

All I seek is that it have the same priority and importance of what it had in the Hogan and New Generation Eras. That isn't anything new.

Women's wrestling isn't a priority either. The tag titles are probably below all three main titles and the two midcard titles in terms of public interest, so, no, the WWE shouldn't be focussing on their number 6 division.

Not in term of public interest. The public didn't all of a sudden wake up one day and say "I hate Tag Team Wrestling". The Audience of One did that. And he, in turn, tells his audience what to think.

Therefore, if he doesn't place Tag Teams as a priority and doesn't do a thing with them, then you can't expect the audience to care.

On the contrary, if he would put some effort and emphasis on the Division, I bet you that the audience would care.

They will never get serious about it, because they never have been. It has always been an afterthought, it didn't even get on every PPV when there were three titles and four PPVs.

With the exception of Survivor Series (for obvious reasons), yes a Tag Team Title Match did pretty much get on every PPV back in the day when they were only doing 4.

The entertaining tag division is a by product of a top notch main event, and the WWE should be focussing on acheiving that. If they do, the other cogs will fall into place.

No, they obviously don't fall into place. Because all WWE has done is focused on the Main Event and only the Main Event for the last several years, and hence Vince is now frustrated that he can't create new stars. It's because he focused ONLY on the Main Event and didn't care about anything else which is why he got himself in this stale main event scene to begin with.

Nobody is saying that the Tag Team Division should receive more emphasis than the Main Event. All I am saying is that it deserves more emphasis than what it has gotten these past several years.

If someone is incompetent enough that they can't walk and chew gum at the same time, or in this case focus on both the main event and the midcard/tag team divisions, then clearly that person is too incompetent to be on the creative team.

They're making money with a similar size to old ECW, that in itself should be proof that copying WWE is the way to success.

Copying WWE is the way to success? Just like WCW did with Nitro, right? No, if anything copying WWE is not necessarily the way to success.

TNA takes some obvious pointers from WWE, which is not the right move to go, given some of their decisions. Some of those pointers I can agree with, because they are basic fundamentals to operating a successful wrestling companyI can understand why an Amateur at the business would think so ... that being to copy who is successful ..... however what wrestling fans want is a distinctly unique different product alternative to WWE.

I would attempt to differentiate my product as much away from WWE as possible at this point, and give those fans the alternative to the current WWE product that they are looking for.

The show hasn't suffered at the loss of any of those, with the possible exception of Mitchell.

Mitchell was a loss. And again, you have to fault TNA for following WWE's lead in getting rid of managers ... male managers in particular.

Obviously, the only reason Sharmell is around is because it's a package deal between her and Booker. If she isn't booked, then he goes.

TNA and ROH started at the same time. One of them copied WWE and is a global brand that makes money. The other didn't and, by many accounts, has only months left without significant financial investment.

TNA did not copy WWE, except for some minor pointers.

ROH can fall off the face of the Earth for all I care. Worst influence ever on Vince's product was following the lead of ROH. Although he seems to be slowly getting out of that phase now.

Although, we'll have to see what he does with Danielson and McGuiness.

However, no, TNA did not replicate WWE except for some creative things, which I am also against.

The tag teams he had were shite. He is trying to make more on ECW. Seriously, compare the number of tag matches on that brand to everywhere else.

Who else on ECW is a regular Tag Team besides Kozlov and Jackson?

If Tyler Reks isn't in a regular team soon, I'd be suprised.

I certainly wouldn't. He should be in a Tag Team, though.

Well my reps encouraging me to continue in throwing you off your high horse would suggest otherwise on the agreement front, but I'm sure you've been repped too.

Not in all cases, but in many cases it is a popularity contest on here. As you can see, I have my fair share of Rep as well, and thanks to everyone that contributed to it. It is greatly appreciated.

Let's get something straight. I am not on a high horse. I simply have confidence in my opinions. And all I do is enforce why I feel those opinions are correct, and stand by them. Nothing more.

If people get mad at that, simply because my opinions don't align with theirs or I simply don't fall in line with the rest of the IWC and/or the ROH bots, then oh well. Me "telling it like it is" is more important than catering and coddling the IWC.

I know Vince doesn't care about Tag wrestling, at no point have I said he did. What I am saying is firstly that he never has cared about it,

And I dare say a majority of people are going to disagree with you on this. And the reason is because they see the same thing that I see .... a reduction in the emphasis of the Tag Team Division over the years. People are obviously upset for a reason. They can see the difference between the Tag Team Division today and the Tag Team Divisions from the 90's.

and secondly that the current tag situation is the best possible thing for it. No tag team has done anything to suggest that they could maintain as much of an interest as Jerishow, so they haven't been given a shot.

Again, it is obvious that you really don't understand or comprehend the importance of the Creative Team and what factor it plays in the careers of the wrestlers as well as the overall format and direction of the show.

You want to know how to generate interest in other tag teams in the company? It really isn't that hard. You write angles and storylines on your television shows featuring the talents you want, and allow them opportunities on television to develop their characters to make a connection with the audience. And you do that until you find something that works.

Wrestlers aren't simply going to connect with the audience based on their wrestling, like I have argued with others on that. It almost always comes from the Creative Team.

You believing that the best solution to the Tag Team Division and the Championship is Jerishow is just one more example of how utterly mindless fans can be, in so far as allowing Vince to tell them what to think.

The tag title has been on PPV more times in a row than it has been for 6 years. I'm not implying that Jerishow is some sort of dawning of a new era of tag wrestling, I'm saying its a better option than just giving it to a tag team to have a load of lacklustre fued. Would it be any better if Cryme Tyme held the title for 200 days and fought a load of shithouse teams like Miz and Morrison did?

I'm not going to go into this, as I would simply point to the lack of effort from the Creative Department as well as Developmental once again as being responsible for not producing quality teams or providing opportunities for them to get over on the mic.

Sometimes you have to broaden your horizons. The solution isn't always what you physically see with the current roster the way it is currently set up.

Sometimes it requires character changes. Sometimes it requires effort to be placed in WWE Developmental before any given talent debuts so they will be ready to debut as a tag team.

Either Cryme Tyme or Legacy should be Tag Team Champions today. Not Chris Jericho and Big Show, two people who don't need the Tag Titles.

Legacy were on PPV cards before, I don't see why they wouldn't be now, although obviously not main eventing. Cryme Tyme and Legacy have had more exposure from their feuds with these upper midcarders than they ever would have against each other or against lesser teams.

And when you push people to the top too quickly, the audience tends to turn on them in this day and age. That is why elevating talent requires a ton of pre-planning ... not just throwing them in the mix with Upper Midcarders/Main Eventers ... and hoping that some rub comes off on them.

Cryme Tyme gained nothing by feuding with Jerishow. Neither did Legacy. Perhaps if either one would have captured the titles, and held them for a lengthy run defending them against other credible tag teams, than that would be a different story.

However, thus far, they gained nothing.

And I can guarantee that this backwards philosophy of pushing Dibiase and Rhodes is also going to blow up in their faces. The audience does NOT look at Legacy as a credible threat yet, since they haven't paid their dues.

They should have worked their way up the roster capturing the Tag Titles, then moved on to capturing a Singles Title, and then moved to the Main Event ... slowly progressing up the ladder. Not move from Orton's lackeys and then thrown right into a Main Event against DX. Again, poor planning on WWE's part, and it's obvious that they learned nothing from their mistakes from prior years.

They feuded against Cryme Tyme and Legacy first though, didn't they, there's no tag teams left.

That's the Creative team's fault. Not mine.

9 months. The fact you thought it was one kind of proved the point that they weren't very good at generating interest doesn't it.

2 months, actually. The Tag Team Championship was unified at Mania, and they dropped it two months later in June at the Bash.

They only officially appeared on both shows since the Tag Team Championship was unified.

So last year, when they had Jesse and Festus, Ryder and Hawkins, Miz and Morrison, Cryme Tyme, Deuce and Domino and Shannon Moore and Jimmy Wang Yang, Cade and Murdoch, Holly and Rhodes, London and Kendrick all of whom had at least 6 months experience, the tag team division was in a better shape than it is now? Thats 3-4 established teams, and they were all shit, so he's trying something else.

Yes.

ALLOW ME TO SPEAK LOUD AND CLEAR. YES, THE TAG TEAM DIVISION WAS BETTER LAST YEAR WITH EACH OF THOSE TAG TEAMS THAN IT IS TODAY.

All you need to comprise a remotely competent tag team division is 2-3 good teams, and the rest can range from "satisfactory" to "needs improvement".

Quite frankly, I would rather have my weak links in a Tag Team Division as opposed to the Mid card, anyway.

They've just had a feud with two main eventers. Whether or not you think they are main eventers is irrelevant

It's actually perfectly relevant. Because whether or not people take them seriously will have a tremendous influence on their success in the immediate future. If they aren't perceived as credible, than the audience won't necessarily have an interest in shelling out $40 for a PPV to see them in a Main Event, if they aren't deemed as worthy.

All WWE had to do was gradually develop them the old fashioned way and take them through the ranks, but instead they chose to make them Orton's lackeys, and then immediately propel them to the Main Event.

If WWE plans to keep them in the Main Event, they are going to regret it. However, they can try to salvage their mess by putting those two right back down into the Midcard where they really belong, and hoping for the best by having them to compete for Midcard titles. Unfortunately, it's a little crowded there with people being developed because of Vince botching it over the years.

they are a tag team that has had attention vested in them, something you said wasn't happening.

I said that Jerishow didn't do a damn thing for Legacy, and I stand by that.

It has quite a lot to do with it. I am repeating myself over and over again here,

Yes, you are, and I am getting pretty tired of it. And I am probably going to end this argument after this post, because I am tired of both you and I repeating ourselves when we aren't getting anywhere.

but when has there ever been a competent tag and midcard division without a good main event?

Speaking of repeating yourself, once again, nobody said that WWE should focus more on the Tag Team Division than the Main Event. I only stated they should focus more on the Tag Team Division than what they have these past several years.

Its far more important that FCW is used to find tomorrow's main eventers than it's tag teams.

Here's a novel concept. Since it is a comprehensive developmental league, why can't it be used to do both? Again, seriously, can people not walk and chew gum at the same time, here?

But he's still making stars. He made Cena and Batista, he made Orton, he made Hardy, he's making Punk. They are still the only major company, and they are still making stars. You said they weren't, I showed they were, and now your saying they're only making stars because it is easy for them. So you've contradicted yourself.

No, I'm really not.

Cena, Orton, and Batista have been stars for years now so for you to claim that they are some recent creation of McMahon is plain and simply a fallacy. Punk and Hardy are the only recent stars Vince has helped create.

One of them was such a good longterm pick that he isn't even in the company anymore. The other is still somewhat green as champion and is still having the waters tested with him as champion.

So yes, I stand behind my statement.

You're completely wrong...

So you keep claiming, and so I keep disproving.

I am going to post my exact words below here and address your misleading comments below, once again:

Who says that only "one year" constitutes "rushing someone to the Main Event"?

Guys used to spend a good 3-4 years in Midcard status before Main Eventing, unless they were brought over as a Main Eventer elsewhere. Now, they are Main Eventing after 1-3 years. To me, that is still rushing.

Hulk Hogan - debuted December 1983, Main evented January 1984

Was established in the AWA as a Main Eventer.

Randy Savage - debuted 1985, main evented 1988

Right. That's 3 years.

The Rock - debuted 1996, main evented 1998

Rock wasn't in the Main Event until the end of 1998. BTW, are you seriously comparing The Rock to Rhodes and Dibiase?

Stone Cold Steve Austin - debuted 1995, main evented 1997

No. He Main Evented in 1998.

Mick Foley - debuted 1996, main evented 1998

Established Main Eventer-- Cactus Jack, from WCW. And to prove my point, he actually was in the Main Event of Mind Games in 1996 in his debut year against Shawn Michaels.

HHH - debuted 1996, Main evented 1999

3 years.

Razor Ramon - debuted 1992, main evented 1993

Scott Hall was an established Upper Midcarder in WCW known as the Diamond Studd. As far as Ramon being a Main Eventer, he Main Evented one PPV as Razor Ramon, and that was against Bret Hart at the 1993 Royal Rumble.

After that, it was back to Upper Midcard-Midcard status for him.

Diesel - debuted 1993, main evented 1994

Was a benefactor of Vince's steroid trial and Hogan, Savage, and numerous others departing for WCW. Vince only had Hart and Michaels and desperately needed another Main Eventer. Which explains why Diesel was thrown into the mix, as well as Bob Backlund.

Ultimate Warrior - debuted 1987, main evented 1990

3 years.

Seriously, just admit that quick pushes have always happened.

They happen once in a very blue moon. Lesnar the most obvious example. But no, they aren't the norm.

No they aren't. Plenty of people have been put in the main event young and returned from it.

List "plenty of young people the ages of Rhodes and Dibiase" that have been placed in the Main Event only to come back down from it.

Rhodes and Dibiase are too young to be taken seriously as Main Eventers. Not what you want to hear, but it's the truth. Maybe some other posters will chime in with their thoughts on Main Eventers Cody Rhodes and Ted Dibiase.

Randy Orton was given the world title in 2004,

Which pretty much everyone admits was a major mistake on WWE's part.

then went back down and returned strong in 2007

so it took 3 years to recover from that debacle, which only cheapened his value for those 3 years, when they could have been building, and building, and building him all that time.

its easy to come back from anything if your good enough. The talent of Rhodes and DiBiase will cause them to sink or swim, and nothing else. Michaels main evented Survivor Series 1992, yet still managed to have quite a successful career.

That he did. Too bad I don't see Shawn Michaels in either Rhodes or Dibiase.

Michaels put on a very good match with Hart, but probably shouldn't have Main Evented that PPV. Nonetheless, he was with WWE since 1988, so he spent 4 years with the company before Main Eventing. He was put back down to the Midcard division after that match, though.

Even then, it did seem a little early for him to Main Event. But he was one of those guys that had it. Rhodes and Dibiase, at this point in time, have not showed me that they have it to Main Event.

The status quo has remained exactly the same in the WWE in terms of development and tag team wrestling, the only thing that has changed is the pedantry of the fans.

Nope. WWE fans are upset for a reason with Tag Team wrestling, and has been demonstrated in this post, the Tag Team Division was much healthier and much larger in years past compared to today.

The real difference is that you emphasize quality as your sole factor in making this determination, where as I emphasize quantity and some quality .... just not to the degree that you do.

 

[The Brain]

I’ve enjoyed the debate between Tastycles and Sidious so I’d like to join in. I for one used to love tag team wresting, but the division has been a joke for at least ten years now. To say Vince or the fans never cared about tag team wrestling is simply not true. To say the tag team division is no weaker now than ever before is also not true. You can look at the first two Survivor Series events for proof. Each event had a match consisting of five tag teams vs. five tag teams. These were legit teams too, not two singles stars randomly thrown together. Not only that but they were really good teams too. I’m not talking about Shannon Moore and Jimmy Wang Yang here. We had The Hart Foundation, The British Bulldogs, Demolition, The Rockers, The Brain Busters, The Rougeaus, The Powers of Pain, The Young Stallions, The Killer Bees, and more. That’s what I call a strong tag division. Why did the fans care about any of those teams? Because creative cared and they were pushed properly.

Fans cared about tag team wrestling in the 80’s. It was just as important as singles matches. In the early days of ppv the tag title matches were more important than any singles match except the World and IC title matches. The way the titles are treated now is ridiculous. I can’t stand it when the titles are used as a prop to push an angle between two singles stars. This disrupts the flow of the tag division and makes the titles seem less important. This seemed to be the intent with Jericho and Edge. This happened with Michaels and Cena. Batista and Cena. The list goes on and on.

The following paragraph is a post of mine from a few months ago.

The tag team division needs serious help. This is one of the most obvious differences between the 80's and today. Twenty years ago the tag scene was outstanding. Now it's a joke. Remember the first Survivor Series? A five team vs. five team match!! And these were legit teams, not just two struggling singles wrestlers thrown together for a few weeks. There are so few teams now that all you have to do is be a tag team to get a title shot. Anyone remember how Matt Hardy and MVP got their title shot? MVP wanted a title match so Vickie Guerrero said whoever the next person to walk through the door would be his partner in a title match. Not the greatest way to determine the number 1 contenders. Teams like The Rockers, The Rougeau Brothers, The Powers of Pain, and the Islanders never had a title reign. Any one of those teams would dominate today's tag scene. In the 80's tag matches were just as important and even more exciting than singles matches. I'd like to see some of the developmental wrestlers study these matches and maybe try to get their start in the tag ranks (worked pretty well for Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels and Davey Boy Smith). Really learn how to work the ref and work the crowd. This is a lost art in today's WWE. WWE seems to like throwing feuding singles stars in tag matches every week. Why not have a legit tag division instead with people who've learned the art of the tag match the right way?

Sidious is right. If Vince and creative cared about tag team wrestling the fans would too. Nowadays teams are split up before they have a chance to get over. The Colons were getting on a roll and delivering some good matches. They were split up for no reason and look at them now. I would say the Colons vs. Miz and Morrison was one of the better feuds going earlier this year. The Colons had a lot to offer to WWE programming in the tag division. Since the split we’ve barely seen either one of them. Why not keep them together and have them work with Legacy. After that the Hart Dynasty. It seems like there’s some rule where there’s only four teams allowed on the roster. If a new one comes in one has to go. You want to know why no one cares about the Hart Dynasty vs. Cryme Time? It’s because they wrestle each other every week. They don’t have anyone else to work with. It’s hard to get over when you don’t have anyone to work with.

The bottom line is when creative doesn’t care about something the fans won’t either. If they would just put some effort into the tag division they could add a whole new element to their show. More guys would become more valuable. Other guys wouldn’t need to be overused and could be kept fresh. By the way, tag matches could actually be great matches and fun to watch.

One more thing I had to chime in on. D Lo and Test at WrestleMania XV was HORRIBLE. Here’s a better idea: anything else. I would have used the Hardys. I actually said that back then. The Hardys weren’t over yet and this was a great chance to have their breakout match. They would have matched up well with Owen and Jarrett. They could have been the unlikely underdogs to win the battle royal on Heat. They could have delivered a good match and reached a point where the fans thought they would pull off the big upset. In the end they would have lost, but got a lot of attention and respect. Obviously the Hardys ended up getting over anyway, but I thought it could have been a Mania moment for them to have their breakout match.

 

[Tastycles]

So yes, Cryme Tyme vs Hart Dynasty could have had the interest to make SummerSlam had Vince bothered actually putting an effort into having these two teams feud with one another.

No it couldn't. Hart Dynasty have existed about 4 months and would never have had massive heat. If they did, it would have been because they are related to Bret Hart, and not because they are actually worthy yet.

Teams aren't going to get over alone, based solely on their wrestling. It is Creative's job to get them over and to get the fans to care.

Cryme Tyme have a Word Up segment every week, Rhodes and DiBiase are second only to DX, Cena and Orton in terms of TV time, Natalya, the only one who can cut a promo, gets on the mic before every single match the Hart Dynasty have. Look, Sidious, they even have a manager and nobody cares! Fancy that. Kozlov and Jackson are on TV with their spokesman Regal for the most part of ECW, and MVP and Mark henry have been doing VIP Lounge segments together. That's development. Tell me, how, say, The Hart Foundation or British Bulldogs got any more vested interest than these teams.

What's your point?

Certainly Jericho and Big Show are going to get more of a reaction, as they have been established stars for well over a decade.

My point is that as short as the WWE is on Upper Midcarders and Main Eventers, these two would be much better served in those divisions as opposed to the Tag Team Division, which could be better utilized for up and coming talent.

Right, but is up and comer JTG going to benefit more from beating Chris Jericho 1 on 1 or from beating Curt Hawkins, because that is essentially the difference.

You clearly want to blame the above listed Tag Teams themselves for not getting over. I blame Creative for not investing the time in the division, or the teams themselves, to actually get them over with the crowd.

It is their fault. Cryme Tyme are over, in fact most of those teams get some sort of reaction, which is more than can

Yeah, feuding with Jericho and Big Show did absolute wonders for them, when they feuded two months ago, now didn't it?

They aren't any more over now than before they feuded with Jerishow.

Yes they are. Not only do the commentators mentionthat JTG pinned Jericho every time they are on TV, it also gave them the oppurtunity to fight at Summerslam, something a tag team hasn't done since 2003.

As far as Ryder and Hawkins .... again, a team can only go as far as Creative is willing to invest the time into them.

They were onscreen every week, often booked into main events with Edge, they were given TV time, the titles and absolutely golden heel heat oppurtunities with La Famillia, yet they still couldn't solicit a reaction. Compare that to Chavo, who finished that period as a massively unpopular heel.

Nine out of ten times, the problem always comes down to talent not being given opportunities to get over on the mic. And that was Creative's problem with these two. Their wrestling abilities were fine. And now low and behold, look at how well Ryder is doing when Creative puts a little effort into any given talent. Now, if only they would have done that back then when he and Hawkins were paired together.

They put him onscreen in both a wrestling and non wrestling capacity every week. What more do you want? It's all well and good making Ryder a star on ECW, but who would you rather give Smackdown mic time to, Edge or Curt Hawkins? Ask yourself honestly, how often were the Hardys given mic time? How often were the British Bulldogs? Hardly ever. These teams got over on their wrestling abilities. Cryme Tyme start with little mic time. When given it, they excel, so they get more. This will happen with Natalya too. You cannot give somebody nobody gives a shit about a microphone and tell them to go out there and expect the crowd to care, as the Drew McIntyre feud would suggest. I assume that you know Curt Hawkins is back in developmental, so clearly, he isn't good enough in the ring.

Give me a break.

Yep. Henry and MVP were togethet again this week, looks like they're still together. I'll give you a break when they split up and aren't replaced.

The problem is that you and Creative are on the same page. Which is a scary thought. You aren't in the mindset of developing talent. Rather, you are interested in preserving the status quo.

No, I am of the opinion that tag team wrestling is an inefficient and bad way to develop talent, because people can hide behind their weeknesses. We've already both shown that very few main eventers have been in tag teams first, and of those that have, they have needed to spend a similar amount of time in the midcard to those who are never in a team. I can't think of a single wrestler who went from tag team to main event without stopping in the midcard for at least a year, can you?

You should be constantly thinking of ways and utilizing the opportunities available to develop new fresh faces to keep people entertained.

And tag team wrestling is low down the list of those oppurtunities. There hasn't ever been a period of tag wrestling where more than 3 tag wrestlers have gone on to be main eventers ever. There have been plenty of midcard divisions that have done. Like I said, the tag titles should be WWE's 6th priority.

Well, you have basically killed just about any shred of credibility you had with this ignorant statement.

"Midcards aren't a priority" Tastycles says.

You have just shown your complete lack of understanding about wrestling with that statement. If you want to make money, you invest in your main event. If you want the majority of fans to enjoy it, you invest in your main event. The midcard needs some attention, obviously, but it shouldn't be the number one priority and never has been. Even in 1999, you had Val Venis, Road Dogg, Goldust and The Godfather be IC champions within a space of 4 weeks with no discernable feud. The classic midcard feud is a very rare thing.

And you wonder why WWE has such a stale main event problem and why we keep seeing the same guys wrestling each other one PPV after another.

I imagine that has something to do with the fact that the WWE has been immensly unlucky with who it has built up in the last 5 years. Lesnar, Lashley, Kennedy, RVD, Carlito, Chris Masters, Umaga, were all pushed immensely only to fall on their arse or leave the company.

And anyway, yet again you're arguing about a precedent that isn't there. Between Survivor Series last year and Bragging Rights this year, 12 people have had a title shot for the Raw title, what ever it was at the time, on PPV. Between Survivor Sereis 1998 and No Mercy 1999 (I'm including the two British PPV's so it is the same number), 8 people were involved in PPV WWF Championship matches.

Even Vince McMahon himself was frustrated with his lack of ability to create new stars.

Now, if only he was concentrating these past few years on that Midcard that you say doesn't matter and shouldn't be a priority.

If he was concentrating on the midcard, we wouldn't have John Cena's popularity, which is far more important.


Main Eventers are always going to be strong because more emphasis is placed on them then anywhere else.

Name some Main Eventers who you don't consider to be strong, that also did not have strong tag teams, as well.

Any champion between 1993 and 1998, really, which is also when the tag teams were all poor. Any champion between 2001 and now, and any champion

Creative's fault. Not theirs.

I love how so many people thinks it's the fault of the wrestlers themselves as opposed to the Creative Team. Although it was no surprise to me since I am familiar with television production, it obviously was a surprise to many people how scripted WWE television is. If anything, that should have been an eye-opener when that Raw before Mania script was leaked in how much control the Creative Department has over the programs. Yet despite that, people like you still place the blame on the wrestlers themselves.

Christ, If I didn't have you to tell me that WWE was scripted, what would I do? Why is it that Cryme Tyme are over and those teams aren't? They had exactly the same effort placed on them, Jesse and Festus had vignettes and skits on a weekly basis, Ryder and Hawkins had exactly the same level of interest that Legacy have, virtually the same plan exactly, and one of them can maintain a feud with main eventers and one of them had to go back to developmental.

You worked in TV, soyou think you have somehow a fly on the wall in the WWE creative department. I've worked in a factory, it doens't make me an expert on

How the Hell are they going to get over with the audience UNLESS the Creative Team provides them with opportunities to actually get over? You aren't going to get over with the audience based solely on ring skills. It doesn't work that way. And if that's what you think, you have been completely ignorant to why the most successful wrestlers have actually been successful.

Show me a Hardy promo from 1999, and you'll have a point. The Rockers had very little invested in them for about 2 years. It was basically a case of go out and beat jobbers, then lose to Demolition. They got over on their wrestling ability. More tag teams get over on their wrestling than their outside the ring work.

Is that the team's fault, or is Creative's fault for not allowing them opportunities to get their gimmicks over? Choice is rather clear to me.

I personally thought Jesse and Festus was an awful idea, so again, do I blame Jesse and Festus? No. I blame the Creative team for giving them such a lousy gimmick.

Maybe it was an awful gimmick, but so was The Godwinns, so was Buh Buh's stutter. Good wrestlers compensate.

Deuce N Domino I liked. And looking at their work in OVW, there were a lot of spots they did in their matches there that WWE did not have them do on Smackdown. Plus, Cherry was far better utilized in OVW as their valet as she was on Smackdown with them.

If that is true, then perhaps you can question the Smackdown road agents as to why they weren't using the spots. All I was seeing was a generic, average tag team wearing greaser clothes.

Good Tag Teams that WWE could sign from the Indys?

Like I said, I really don't follow Indy Wrestling anymore like I used to. However, I have no doubt in my mind that teams are out there AND teams are waiting to be formed.

You are going on and on about it, but yet you can't actually name anyone.

MNM for example, was a great Tag Team in WWE. They never teamed until WWE actually placed them together while they were in Developmental.

Right, but that's like one team, the vast majority of WWEs good teams have teamed before they reached developmental. The WWE has rarely made their own teams in developmental, choosing usually to do it after they have debuted or to sign established teams. Even in this instance, Nitro had spent some time as a singles star.

Teams don't always pop out of nowhere. They are actually placed together while in wrestling school and are looked at from there. One has to be an idiot not to think that there are great wrestlers out there who would make great tag teams that simply need to be paired together.

Right, but like I said before, the WWE has never done that. Of the teams mentioned by you in your 1990, 1996, 1999 and 2003 lists only three were made by WWE before they debuted - The Body Donnas, Demolition and La Resistance. The rest either came over as teams or were formed after they had debuted. So, again, you're moaning about a change that hasn't happened.

How about the Colons for starters. There was absolutely zero reason they needed to be broken up.

I think you have a point with them, but it is my impression that someone, either Vince or the rest of creative, wants to push Carlito and the other half don't.

Nonetheless, examples of available past tag teams and teams from the Indys that I am aware of:

The Briscoe Brothers
3 Minute Warning
Gemini Trojans

So, spot monkeys, a team featuring a guy who was released for being an addict and a team that are really just starting out.

I never indicated that every tag team wrestler was going to make it to the Main Event. Not everyone is Main Event material.

However, it does serve the purpose of elevating people to the Mid and Upper Midcard.

BTW, you seem to be ignoring a majority of the list of names. So let's repeat those names again:

Bret Hart
Shawn Michaels
Owen Hart
British Bulldog
John Morrison
Edge
Christian
Jeff Hardy
Matt Hardy
The Miz
Zack Ryder

Zack Ryder is hardly upper midcard, but even if we go with that list, here is a list of upper midcarders that weren't born in tag teams: Ricky Steamboat, Razor Ramon, The Godfather, Goldust, Val Venis, Jeff Jarrett, Rey Mysterio, Chris Jericho, Chris Benoit, CM Punk, Kofi Kingston, Rob Van Dam, Randy Orton, Kane, Rikishi, William Regal, Mr Kennedy, Test, look, I could go on and on. My point stands that the tag division has always been an inefficient producer of top drawer upper midcarders and main eventers.

It is not only a developmental method if used properly, it is also a way to expand wrestler's careers to get the most out of them. Eventually, fans are going to get bored of certain performers being Singles competitors for a decade or so.

It can also have the reverse effect. It can hold a star down and prevent them from having a bankable star for several years because tag teams don't generally sell well. Christian is 35 years old and he has had one world title match, CM Punk is the same age as John Morrison, yet he is about 2 years in front of him in his development because he wasn't in a tag team. Sure, tag teams can keep average workers in a job longer, but they also hinder bankable stars making money.

Wrestler X and Wrestler Y are both 23 years old.

We debut Wrestler X and Y in a Tag Team for their first 2 years with the company.

Then, we split them up and place them in the Mid Card Division for another 3 years. They are now 28 years old. It is in this stage where they are awarded the US and/or IC titles.

We then elevate them to the Upper Midcard for another 2 years. They are now 30.

Now, if they are ready, they are then propelled to the Main Event.

The instances where this has happened are rare throughout the history of wrestling, mostly because it doesn't really work. Generally speaking, the audience warm to the tag team and don't want to see them split, or they don't and it hurts the wrestlers credibility.

So instead of keeping them in Singles Action the entire duration of their career, they instead had an opportunity to serve the Tag Team Division for two years, hone their skills, get some recognition as Tag Team Champions to establish their credibility ... and then move them on to Singles action ... where they will be taken seriously since they would have hopefully served as Tag Team Champions before moving on.

A tag team championship doesn't mean people will take you seriously, look at Trevor Murdoch, Sim Snuka etc.

Goal should be for WWE to develop their talent and establish their credibility. I am happy to see them finally taking steps in that direction as they have done a splendid job with Miz and Morrison, both of which have followed the roadmap I indicated, and both of which are seen as credible by the WWE audience, having both been Tag Team Champions, AND now having each held a Singles Mid Card title.

Really, because I believe both debuted as singles stars, were thrown together as a tag team and then split. The feud with John Cena is what made people care about The Miz. Don't believe me? Look at the complete lack of reaction to his first promo in that feud compared to his last. Similarly it was turning face that made Morrison. It'd be foolish to say their tag reign wasn't important, but even so, you are saying that the WWE don't do this kind of development, then you give an example of a team that they are doing it for right now. When, exactly do you think the tag division went downhill? April? Because that's when this team split. Give the WWE a fucking chance.

They put their time in the Tag Team Division, and have entertained the audience as a Tag Team. Now WWE should have had a replacement young tag team ready to go to take Miz and Morrison's place.

As stated, WWE should have a bare minimum of 3 Tag Teams on Raw, 3 Tag Teams on Smackdown, and 2 Tag Teams on ECW IF they wish to continue doing the roster split.

Oh ok, I see. You mean like when the Hardys, Dudleys and Edge and Christian all stopped teaming and they had the in no way thrown together Spike Dudley and Tazz ready to go? There is no precedent for the WWE replacing teams immediately, we are literally talking about 5 months here.

Whenever one team is split up, another should be ready to step in from WWE Developmental to take their place.

In an ideal world, yes, but people don't get ready at the precise time. The Rotundas are obviously going to make their way into WWE at some stage, but they have to wait until they are ready. Miz and Morrison were ready to be split, and its sad it wasn't synchronised, but its exactly the same as when the Hardys weren't ready to go when the NAO split up the first time, synchronisation is too difficult to acheive every time.

Right now, all I see are:

Raw
Jerishow
Legacy


Smackdown
Cryme Tyme
Hart Dynasty


ECW
Kozlov and Jackson


WWE really needs at least 3 more Tag Teams at this juncture, all of which should be Faces, for a strong Tag Team Division. It should be their job to pair people together while in Developmental and develop them as a Tag Team before bringing them up to the Main Roster.

It has never been WWE's job to do that. They have made maybe 10 teams in developmental themselves in the last 20 years. The WWE's job is to scout talent, which sadly doesn't appear to be out there in the tag division. The second point is I'm yet to see anything to suggest that the matching ring attire, perennial joint segments, and multiple matches of MVP and Henry isn't a tag team. So that leaves a gap for two. Right now, DX are also fighting in the division. Which leaves us one short of your mystical number.

I don't know what you are talking about.

You asked me about Batista going to Smackdown, and I mentioned that Smackdown needed another Main Eventer since Jeff Hardy left.

However, Big Show and Jericho still appear on both Raw and Smackdown, so they serve Vince's purpose of having Upper Midcard talent on both shows. Plus, they now have a Full time Main Eventer.

Both Raw and Smackdown need help in the Upper Midcard. However, Smackdown desperately needed help in the Main Event and needed a Face in particular. Which is why Batista was sent over ... since Undertaker seems to be a cripple anyway.

You keep going on and on about the need for upper midcarders on those brands, yet all Jerishow offer is one extra on each. It's hardly going to make a difference.

Does it solve the problem? No.

Does it help the problem? Yes.

I fail to see how the original team of Edge and Jericho, Smackdown main eventers, is going to help Smackdown's upper midcard. One person extra on each brand isn't going to make a difference.

No. If that is what you think I would have done, then you haven't been paying attention.

I would have actually given the Tag Team Titles to an established team like Legacy back when they faced Jericho and Big Show two or three PPV's ago. Not a makeshift team like Jericho and Big Show.

Then, if Legacy had another Face tag team to feud with, I would have done that. After that, I would have had Legacy begin a feud and drop the belts to Cryme Tyme.

But the problem is LEgacy did have the titles, did feud with Crym Tyme and nobody gave a shit. They feuded with the Colons too, and nobody gave a shit.

Elevating talent. Not giving the titles to people who don't need them like Jericho and Big Show.

The tag titles don't elevate anybody. Nobody cares about them. These are the wrestlers from standard tag teams to have held the titles since this time in 2006: Lance Cade, Trevor Murdoch, Paul London, Brian Kendrick, Hardcore Holly, Cody Rhodes, Ted DiBiase, John Morrison, The Miz, Primo, Carlito, Deuce, Domino, Zack Ryder, Curt Hawkins. How many of them have any crediility with the WWE audience? 4, maybe 5. Most of them are no longer employed, because they aren't interested enough. The tag titles can't elevate shit.

And again, that is more so because of who is actually holding the belts as opposed to simply because it is the Tag Team Championship itself. Vince wants to fit Jericho and Big Show on the card and that is a way to get both of them on that card.

So what though? A by-product of it is that it gets these teams on PPV and it will mean more when the title is ultimately won than it does right now.

I'm happy to see the Tag Title being defended, but Vince's goal is clearly not to put emphasis on the Tag Team Division. He's doing it because he knows that Jericho and Show are competent in the ring, wants to give them a pay day, and that each of them serve their purpose by being two established Upper Midcarders who can hop ship each week as Vince needs them.

He could easily set that up with a talent exchange or any bullshit he wants. The reason he uses this medium is because it has a double affect. Yes, it boosts the roster numbers, but it also gives a modecome of credibility to a division that generally has none.

There was clearly emphasis on the Tag Team Division back in the Hogan Era, New Generation Era, and even the Attitude Era when the Dudleys, Edge and Christian, and the Hardyz were all Tag Teams.

No there wasn't at all. How much more TV time did any of those people get compared to Cryme Tyme and Legacy? Very little. In the new generation era, the tag champions weren't on every PPV, which with a roster as bad as that is very telling. Not to mention that only 6 teams made it onto PPV that whole year, the same number that have this year.

There has never been as much of a de-emphasis on Tag Teams in WWE history as today in The PG Era.

Yes there has, it's always.

So I guess Vince isn't a decent promoter in your eyes then, since he did provide an emphasis on Tag Team Wrestling at several points in WWE history.

Again, Jim Ross says that Tag Team Wrestling isn't the priority today compared to how it used to be years ago, so I really don't know what you are trying to accomplish other than simply be argumentative. You aren't getting anywhere. Anyone with a set of eyes can notice the difference between Tag Team Wrestling today compared to what it used to be, except you apparently. That is why so many people are upset. They actually SEE the difference.

What is the difference? People are looking back with rose tinted spectacles. Your list of teams from 1996 consisted of teams that didn't exist in 1996, teams that weren't pushed except in the wrestling ring and teams that had no longevity, the three things you have bitched about.

Bullshit. People don't care any more about Cryme Tyme now than they did before they had their PPV match with Jerishow. Maybe it would have been nice to have them feud with them longer then a month, do some angles on TV, or something other than simply have a match.

They have wanked over JTG's win loads, that helps him. Cryme Tyme did get involved in TV angles with Jerishow, remember the whole Shaq thing?

Maybe it hasn't come up to your standard, but mine were met just fine with all of the other Eras I mentioned. Some were more satisfactory to me than others .... but all of which were more acceptable than today.

I'm dying to know exactly what it is about the Smoking Gunns having a four minute free for all match with The Godwinns is better than Jerishow facing Cryme Tyme at Summerslam.

And for you to imply that the Hart Foundation, The Rockers, Demolition, and Orient Express couldn't produce decent matches or weren't decent tag teams is laughable.

They were in a boom period, something I have said allows for semi decent tag wrestling somewhere in the vicinity of 12 times, nice one.

And why do you think that is? Obviously, there is more of an emphasis on Singles Wrestling as opposed to Tag Team Wrestling. However, there are loads of shit singles wrestlers, too. So I am not sure what your point is.

I disagree with your notion however that there are only ever 1 or 2 half decent tag teams at any one time. I also find it ironic that you can't admit that there were ever "Good" tag teams at any point in time, either.

When did I say that. I said,

So let's try that again. Typically at any point in time, there have been two or three GOOD Tag Teams, one or two halfway decent teams, and the rest ranging from okay to not so good.

In 1996 we had: The Smoking Gunns, The Godwinns, British Bulldog and Owen Hart, The Body Donnas and The New Rockers. Where exactly do they all fit in. None of them drew, maybe one of them put on good matches, they all had terrible gimmicks. I love how your using Owen Hart and Bulldog, two upper midcarders thrown together because they were in the same stable as an example of a well built team.

So when you are losing the argument, now you have to resort to the "outrageous conspiracy" tactic. Too much.

You are the one using the word "conspiracy" in a piss poor attempt to make it sound like it is a ridiculous concept that Show and Jericho are champs solely for the fact that they can appear on both shows as Upper Midcarders. In reality, it is a very plausible concept, and one that I feel is a rather obvious one.

It is quite plausible, I see you don't know what conspiracy means. It means an agreement, in this case between Vince and creative to perform a subversive act, in this case use the tag championship as a device to expand the midcard. So yes, it is a conspiracy theory, as you are theorising what is happening.

It was Christian and Gangrel BEFORE Edge turned Heel. After Edge turned Heel, it was primarily Edge and Christian with Gangrel managing.

No they didn't. All three of them tagged up when necessary, but none of the three were a consistent duo until later in the year.

Here's Edge and Gangrel, for example.

[YOUTUBE]LPxvHsaWIF4[/YOUTUBE]

And who says they couldn't have done both the tag match, as well as did the segment with the Boss Man.

Hell, where were the Acolytes? They could have had a Tag Match, or have done the spot with the Cage.

They couldn't have done the spot, but they could have done the match. They lost the battle royal that D'Lo and Test won.

Your attempt to claim that there were no other quality tag teams that could have challenged Jarrett and Owen Hart other than DLo Brown and Test was another fail.

There were other teams, granted, but the fact you've said that this is any different to the status quo before or after is my principle point. This happened before, I've already given loads of examples.

They were one tag team in a division. I never claimed that they were the greatest team, but they were an acceptable one. Again, Creative should have done more to try to get them over. They should have never gone the route they did with the NWA Tag Team Championship, as the WWE fans could have cared less. Again, Creative's fault.

It was because the team had no chemistry, that's why they were a failure. The whole angle was shit, but those two could never have been popular as their careers since in a range of gimmicks has shown.

The Tag Team Division is a smaller Division than the Singles Division. I thought that would be rather obvious. So why are you expecting the entire Division to be perfect when it is clear as day that the Singles Division is anything but perfect?

Your point has been that the tag division used to be good, I show you it isn't, then you say "well don't expect it to be". You have contrdicted yourself in the highest degree here, and I actually don't want to go on with this, because that is all you have done time and again. You bring up poor teams in tiny divisions as an example that tag wrestling was good.

First of all, Edge and Christian did exist at Mania 15, and The Acolytes existed as well.

And I hate to say it, but even Too Much would have been more over than the slapped together tag team of Test and DLo Brown for that match.

They probably weren't the best choice, but you know what, neither were 1-2-3 Kid and Bob Holly several years before. It is something that consistently happens because the tag division has always been somewhere where people are put when there's nothing for them to do.

Putting people together just because they were in stables together or managed by the same manager was NOT the status quo. Yes, it happened, but either the company used to turn them around and given them a new gimmick to make it work (more often than not like Rhythm N Blues) or they occasionally went with it anyway (like Haku and Andre). However, that was NOT the norm for Tag Teams back in the Hogan Era, New Generation Era, or the Attitude Era.

I said it was common, the same way upper midcarder teams is common now. You've given some examples, so thanks.

I was talking about the Period BEFORE Mania 15, the same topic you were supposedly talking about. I guess BEFORE is open to interpretation. I think we both agreed that the Tag Team Division was not good by the time Mania 15 rolled around, but they still could have had a team like The Acolytes or Edge and Christian face Jarrett and Owen Hart, instead of the team of Test and DLo Brown.

Who apart from the NAO disappeared in 1998.

And an unpopular Main Event comes down to Vince and Creative for not doing their jobs to develop talent, then.

If you are constantly in a state of developing talent, you aren't going to have a problem, as there will always be someone or several people in a stage of development.

Yes you are. Guys like The Rock, Austin, Hogan aren't really people that can just be made.

When you solely rely on the Main Event and let everything else go to Hell, like Vince has done these past couple years, that is when you start experiencing problems.

Lazy Booking is what hurt Vince these past couple years.

What problems? Increasing ratings? Increasing revenue? Because that's whats happened over the last two years.

The audience will take it seriously IF WWE takes it seriously. WWE has to put the effort into the Division first, to show the audience that the Tag Team Division should be taken seriously.

No he doesn't, because doing so is a waste of time. The thing that is brilliant about good tag teams is that they are ver with very little investment. Edge and Christian got one segment a week, like Cryme Tyme, but where able to run with it.

I'd rather watch The Rockers take on the Headbangers then see Jerishow wrestle MVP/Mark Henry, to be honest.

I meant the new midnight express, but I'm sure you would still say the same thing.

I'd rather see Jericho and Show in singles action instead of Tag Team action, while allowing new stars an opportunity to shine as a Tag Team.

When was the last time anyone shined in a tag division? 2001? It wasn't working with any of the teams he debuted.

Again, that's because Creative and Developmental aren't placing emphasis on the Division. Interesting how you keep going around in circles, here.

You're the one going around in circles. You're going on about a great division that wasn't there. And blaming the creative department for things that were bad in 1999, then you say the teams are good.

However, not all of your Tag Teams need to be all-stars. People like you are way too obsessed over quality, when the general public could care less about the quality that you are looking for.

No, the general public want people they enjoy watching. Are Jericho and Show in that category? Yes. Are Primo and Carlito? No.

I was operating under the hypothetical situation that Jericho and Big Show would drop the titles, that they could still serve in Singles Matches, while allowing a Tag Team match to take place elsewhere on the card, without them in that equation.

But that wouldn't happen. The tag titles have been used sparingly since the early 2000s, and all the way through the 90s.

Not that it's a terrible idea, however when you have the same guys wrestling each other over and over, without giving other stars opportunity to step up to the plate, then yes it is a problem. Even Jericho admitted as such recently in an interview that was posted on Wrestlezone. So go and argue with him.

Jericho actually said that he thought Raw had a problem but Smackdown was doing an excellent job of it... That may be the case, but please don't cherry pick people's opinions for your own benefit.

Yep. I advocate for John Cena to be given 2-3 PPV's off a year.

Everyone from the Upper Midcard on down should be rotated to give all superstars who are ready for PPV a shot at performing. The goal should be to get the audience to care about everyone on the roster, not just a select few.

What part of everyone except for the jobbers have been on PPV don't you understand?

And we've already established why they didn't work. Jesse and Festus was a horrendous gimmick. That was Creative's fault. They assigned them the gimmick.

Good wrestlers run with bad gimmicks.

Deuce N Domino was actually a good gimmick, in my eyes. However, apparently Domino's wrestling wasn't up to WWE's standards, so they split the team.

Who do you fault? Developmental. They shouldn't have been assigned to the main roster unless they were ready.

But what if a team split up recently, because that is exactly what you said, when you contradicted yourself again earlier.

None of this was because Tag Teams "just can't get over" like you are trying to make it out to be.

Yes it was. Plenty of teams, without any creative input, have gone on to big success. The Rockers, for example. You seem to have completely ignored the fact that hardly any teams in the past have had lots of TV time in the process of being over. My point has always been that creative has never invested much in the tag division, you've done nothing throughout this diatribe to show they have.

There are different levels of priority. When I say it should be a priority, I am not indicating that it should hold the same importance as the Main Event, or Mid Card titles. However, it should be more of a priority than what it is.

All I seek is that it have the same priority and importance of what it had in the Hogan and New Generation Eras. That isn't anything new.

It does have the same priority. Legacy get just as much attention as any team from the past 20 years.

Not in term of public interest. The public didn't all of a sudden wake up one day and say "I hate Tag Team Wrestling". The Audience of One did that. And he, in turn, tells his audience what to think.

No, they just never liked it.

Therefore, if he doesn't place Tag Teams as a priority and doesn't do a thing with them, then you can't expect the audience to care.

Not when they never have cared.

On the contrary, if he would put some effort and emphasis on the Division, I bet you that the audience would care.

Possibly, but you can't put an emphasis on everything.

With the exception of Survivor Series (for obvious reasons), yes a Tag Team Title Match did pretty much get on every PPV back in the day when they were only doing 4.

It was never on the Royal Rumble before 1992, nor was it on Summerslam 89 or WresltMania III, so actually, it was on fewer than half.

No, they obviously don't fall into place. Because all WWE has done is focused on the Main Event and only the Main Event for the last several years, and hence Vince is now frustrated that he can't create new stars. It's because he focused ONLY on the Main Event and didn't care about anything else which is why he got himself in this stale main event scene to begin with.

THAT's ALL HE'S EVER DONE

Look, life is too short for this, and I've had enough. We're never going to agree. I will close with this, I have systematically said that there has never been a strong emphasis on tag wrestling, and given countless examples. You have disagreed, and you think hyou have proven me wrong, when to me its obvious you haven't. I'll read a reply, but I won't respond.

 

[Tastycles]

We're going to have to do this in two separate posts because the text was too long. So here it goes:



Bull Fucking Shit. There has never been such a lack of Tag Teams in WWE history compared to today. Never.

We have:

Jerishow
Legacy
Cryme Tyme
Hart Dynasty
Kozlov/Jackson


These are the 5 Tag Teams that WWE has. And it's interesting to note that there is only one Face Tag Team in the whole batch.

According to the Sky "i" button, Mark Henry and MVP team again this week, so we can go with them too. I'm willing not to include DX. Even if we go with your five, I reckon there's been a time with fewer. I'll just look it up... Smoking Gunns, Quebecers, Headshrinkers, Bushwhackers, Men on a mission. That is five teams, indeed the only five teams, that appeared more than twice on WWE TV for the first half of 1994.

Of course the key difference is as opposed to the Tag Teams actually feuding with each other, they are basically kept separated from each other and don't really compete with one another. So if you are going to have a Tag Team Division, you A) Need more Face Tag Teams and B) Should actually do a better job assigning teams to each show. Raw and Smackdown should have at least 3 Tag Teams a piece, with ECW having two .... if we are going to enforce the Roster Split.

Well, lets see. Jerishow has faced 2 of the 4 in the last three months, Cryme Tyme have feuded with 3 of the 4, Harts have faced two of the other four and Legacy have faced the other two.

Only Jackson and Kozlov, who are about three weeks old, haven't feuded with at least two of the others.

Compare these teams to the Hogan Era:

(1990)
Demolition
Hart Foundation
The Rockers
The Bushwhackers
Rhythm N Blues
The Orient Express

I've already said that tag team wrestling is better in boom periods.

Compare that to the New Generation:

(1996)
Smoking Gunns
Body Donnas
Owen Hart/British Bulldog
The Godwinns
The New Rockers
Men on a Mission
Jacob and Eli Blu

The Blu Brothers had about one match in 1996 and they were called something else, Men on a mission never teamed in 1996, I don't even think Mo was still employed. So, you're left with 5, which is the same as now. Factor in the fact that the New Rockers had a ridiculous gimmick and were never pushed, The Body Donnas were all but forgotten when Sunny left them and you are left with 3 half decent ones, The Godwinns, Smoking Gunns, and Hart/Bulldog.

For all your clamouring about longevity in the past, you've entirely proved my point with this list. Only two of the 7 you listed ended 1996 as a team, and only one ended 1997 as a team.

Compared to the Attitude Era:

(1999)
Owen Hart and Jeff Jarrett
The Hardy Boyz
The Acolytes
The New Age Outlaws
Too Cool
Sexual Chocolate Mark Henry and DLo Brown
The Brood

Right, I've already said it's better in boom periods, but even if we ignore that, the list you've made here consists of 7 teams, and not one of them was a team from 1 January to 31 December 1999, except for Too Cool who were jobbers at the time.

Compared to the Post Attitude Era

(2003)
Los Guerreros
La Resistance
Dudley Boys
World's Greatest Tag Team
The Basham Brothers
Hurricane and Rosey (Superheroes)
FBI

They were all abysmal teams, with the exception of Los Guerreros and maybe the Dudleys. For all of the tag teams ability to build stars as you seem to say, only 4 people out of those 14 still have a job. It is also telling that a pairing of random midcarders in RVD and Kane and random members of the Unamericans and Evolution spent more than half the year as champions.

So no, the Tag Team Division was clearly much more stacked in years past compared to today, and was also clearly in ten times better shape in all previous Eras compared to today, as well.

No it wasn't. It was good in eras when wrestling was booming, but practically non existant in the mid nineties and stacked with decidedly below average teams.

Your attempt to argue for the sake of having an argument with me has failed on all fronts. As I stated earlier, the Proof is in the Pudding.

Now you can argue how good or how awful any of those teams were, and that is your personal preference (or attempt to discredit the data just thrown at you). But the Division was clearly more stacked in all previous Eras with longer term, more credible teams than what we have today.

No it wasn't. You lied about the teams that wrestled in 1996, I've shown the same was true of 1994. I can argue that the teams were poor in 2003, and as you say the proof is in the pudding. Less than half of the wrestlers in that list are employed anywhere. That shows they aren't very good.

Never said Vince was going to keep an entire division in existence just so one extra person can appear on a show.

Rather, he wants the Tag Team Champions in place, because clearly he doesn't want to get rid of the division completely, or else fans would be down his throat.

However, he specifically selected Jericho/Edge originally so yes, they could appear on both shows. His rosters are spread so thin as it is, it only makes sense. And of course since Edge got injured, he just went with Big Show instead.

There's nothing to suggest Edge and Jericho would have been on Raw very often, The Colons never went on Smackdown after the draft. I'm saying Vince is doing it so that the someone better than the shite in the division has the titles, you are saying it's so he can spread one person on two brands.

Notice how these two teams rarely ever feud with any of the few established Tag Teams on Raw or Smackdown anyway. Instead, they just butt themselves in whatever is going on with the Guest Host on Raw.

They've fought both Legacy and Cryme Tyme on PPV. But thanks for that.

They also gave away a match between DX and Jerishow for Free on Raw which was incredibly stupid, as they should have saved that match for a PPV. But oh, well. That's WWE logic for ya.

Or, they'll put it on PPV anyway. They probably should have just faced them off against Barry Horrowitz and The Brooklyn Brawler.

If anything is a failure, it is the fault of the Creative Department for not putting the effort into the division or the actual teams to make it a success.

If John Morrison was a failure, it clearly wouldn't be because of John Morrison, as he has talent. It would be the fault of the Creative Team for not pushing him properly or placing him in meaningful programs.

Morrison wasn't a failure. Domino was. And he doesn't have talent.

WWE obviously places all their effort into the Singles Division and basically no effort into the Tag Team Division. So I wonder why it wouldn't be a success (sarcasm)?

What is your point? The WWE invest more attention in something that matters more. Correct.

The Creative Team should be receiving 95% of the blame in any and all circumstances that arise on WWE Television. They control everything. And Vince is at the Head of it all. So if anyone wonders why I blame the Creative Team for just about everything that goes wrong on WWE today and why I blame Vince for just about the entire product .... it's because I know the right people to hold accountable.

You can't blame him for the lack of talent though, which is essentially the problem. Miz and Morrison have talent, and so were pushed as a tag team. Cryme Tyme have talent and are pushed, Deuce and domino don't so they weren't.

You are putting the cart before the horse here.

In order for people to actually care about a certain team, you have to actually put the effort into making them care, and provide reasons to do so.

No, good wrestlers can get over without investment. Jack Swagger debuted and ended up ECW Champion, Ricky Ortiz was released, they had exactly the same level of investment when they debuted.

Vince could very easily get people to care about the Hart Dynasty. However, he has to first place them in meaningful programs and angles to get the people to care.

They've been feuding with Cryme Tyme for quite some time, do you even watch wrestling?

People don't care about Tag Teams as much because Vince really hasn't given them any reason to care. People in the IWC throw a fit because they are better educated to what the Tag Team Division once was and what it meant to the company. However, other mindless fans just prove Vince correct when he can spoon feed them whatever shit he wants to and they will accept it.

People in the IWC throw a fit because they view everything from the past with rose tinted spectacles. The tag team division has literally never had more than three top teams at once and has always been an afterthought. But you know, TLC 2 was a good match so the entire division must have been good.

 

[Tastycles]

I promise I'll let this lie after this post, I just thought, in the interest of completeness I'd finish what I had to say.

Copying WWE is the way to success? Just like WCW did with Nitro, right? No, if anything copying WWE is not necessarily the way to success.

Well yes actually, when Nitro was copying Raw, it started making money. Big money, nearly put the WWF out of business, but then it started going stupid. With all the top quality matches on TV, the stupid angles and turns and the complete overuse of worked shoots, all things that the WWE didn't do, that's when WCW collapsed.

TNA takes some obvious pointers from WWE, which is not the right move to go, given some of their decisions. Some of those pointers I can agree with, because they are basic fundamentals to operating a successful wrestling companyI can understand why an Amateur at the business would think so ... that being to copy who is successful ..... however what wrestling fans want is a distinctly unique different product alternative to WWE.

You don't know anything about business do you? If you are a fledgling company and you try and be different, you will be catering to a tiny audience that won't be able to ever elevate you. That's why, for example, ECW and ROH stopped growing at any realistic rate.

The instances of companies in any industry starting and being completely different to the brand leader immediately before garnering any success is very rare. Pepsi copied Coca-Cola, Burkger King copied McDonald's, its just the way it goes. If TNA changed their fundamentl policies now, thyeyd lose fans as quickly as they gained them. When they are an established brand and an established alternative, that is when they can change, but as we've seen with WCW, that's not always a good idea.

I would attempt to differentiate my product as much away from WWE as possible at this point, and give those fans the alternative to the current WWE product that they are looking for.

You mean like ROH and CZW do? Good luck with that.

Mitchell was a loss. And again, you have to fault TNA for following WWE's lead in getting rid of managers ... male managers in particular.

So let me get this straight, you think that TNA got rid of Mitchell because WWF got rid of male managers 15 years ago for the most part? I think its because they felt he had served his course, rightly or wrongly. You cannot blame everything you don't agree with in the world of wrestling on the WWE.

Obviously, the only reason Sharmell is around is because it's a package deal between her and Booker. If she isn't booked, then he goes.

I don't know.

TNA did not copy WWE, except for some minor pointers.

They either do or don't. It's quite unlikely that they would copy the use r disuse of managers but nothing else.

ROH can fall off the face of the Earth for all I care. Worst influence ever on Vince's product was following the lead of ROH. Although he seems to be slowly getting out of that phase now.

What lead was that then?

Although, we'll have to see what he does with Danielson and McGuiness.

They're going nowhere fast.

However, no, TNA did not replicate WWE except for some creative things, which I am also against.

They're entire business model is based on the WWE. There's more to wresdtling than the sports entertainment avenue you know.

Who else on ECW is a regular Tag Team besides Kozlov and Jackson?

Nobody, but theyve been trying out new teams on a weekly basis.

I certainly wouldn't. He should be in a Tag Team, though.

Time will tell.

Not in all cases, but in many cases it is a popularity contest on here. As you can see, I have my fair share of Rep as well, and thanks to everyone that contributed to it. It is greatly appreciated.

I can't see, but I don't doubt you do have reps, all the comments imply agreement, and I don't think I am particularly popular here.

Let's get something straight. I am not on a high horse. I simply have confidence in my opinions. And all I do is enforce why I feel those opinions are correct, and stand by them. Nothing more.

I think the biggest problem with you, is that you think your opinion should matter to Vince, when it really doesn't, it's just one persons opinion. By your own admission your opinion is neither very similar to marky people nor to the general views of the IWC, so its even less relevant. If Vince did what you wanted, he really would be catering to an audience of one.

If people get mad at that, simply because my opinions don't align with theirs or I simply don't fall in line with the rest of the IWC and/or the ROH bots, then oh well. Me "telling it like it is" is more important than catering and coddling the IWC.

Exactly, there you go. You can tell how you perceive it, not how it is. I've told you how it was, and you've chosen not to believe me. I'm not mad at you, I think your stubborn, but so am I, which is why I shan't continue this debate if you respond.

And I dare say a majority of people are going to disagree with you on this. And the reason is because they see the same thing that I see .... a reduction in the emphasis of the Tag Team Division over the years. People are obviously upset for a reason. They can see the difference between the Tag Team Division today and the Tag Team Divisions from the 90's.

I don't think you can. People tend to forget the shit in the past. People forget about the bad and remember the good. There was a lot of good tag teams during the Hogan era, but you basically needed 4 main eventers then, since then, there has rarely been a period of sustained quality in the division, the exception being in 2000-2001, but this was basically three teams capable of putting on good gimmick matches, the likes of which hadn't been seen before.

Again, it is obvious that you really don't understand or comprehend the importance of the Creative Team and what factor it plays in the careers of the wrestlers as well as the overall format and direction of the show.

It's obvious that you don't really understand the function of the creative team. They are there to make the company make money. Tag wrestling doesn't do that, so no emphasis is put into it. It's as simple as that.

You want to know how to generate interest in other tag teams in the company? It really isn't that hard. You write angles and storylines on your television shows featuring the talents you want, and allow them opportunities on television to develop their characters to make a connection with the audience. And you do that until you find something that works.

They invest just as much time in the tag team division now that they ever did. Cryme Tyme get a weekly segment and a match, Hart Foundation get a match and a short promo, Kozlov and Jackson get extended exposure with Regal, Legacy usually get a segment on their own, one with Orton and a match. Show me how the Dudleys et al got any more than that.

Wrestlers aren't simply going to connect with the audience based on their wrestling, like I have argued with others on that. It almost always comes from the Creative Team.

Yes they are. What did the Hardys do other than wrestle? What did the Rockers do other than wrestle? Teams can get over from their in ring presence and a short promo, which is what all the teams there right now have.

You believing that the best solution to the Tag Team Division and the Championship is Jerishow is just one more example of how utterly mindless fans can be, in so far as allowing Vince to tell them what to think.

Vince doesn't tell me what to think at all. All I know is I'm more likely to tune in, as are most of the fans, to a tag team match between Jerishow and MVP and Henry than I am to one between four wrestlers I don't care about. There have been very few tag teams that have solicited any type of reactio from the crowd recently. You can blame creative all you want, but if Cryme Tyme, Legacy, Miz and Morrison and, to a lesser extent, Hart Foundation csn all get over with the pushes they're getting, why can't the rest of them?

I'm not going to go into this, as I would simply point to the lack of effort from the Creative Department as well as Developmental once again as being responsible for not producing quality teams or providing opportunities for them to get over on the mic.

Sometimes you have to broaden your horizons. The solution isn't always what you physically see with the current roster the way it is currently set up.

Sometimes it requires character changes. Sometimes it requires effort to be placed in WWE Developmental before any given talent debuts so they will be ready to debut as a tag team.

But the effort that requires isn't worth the benefits. The WWE has never made tag teams in developmental, they've always signed them from elsewhere. I'm not saying the tag division is good, I'm saying it's never been good, except in a couple of boom periods.

You are makig out that the WWE has somehow broken down in this department, I'm telling you it hasn't. Of all the teams that have been tag champions in WWE in the last 20 years, only 9 - La Resistance, Cade and Murdoch, Spirit Squad, The Bodydonnas, Headbangers, Demolition, Ryder and Hawkins, Deuce and Domino and MNM - were formed in WWE developmental or by the WWE prior to debut. Of those, 5 debuted in the last 5 years, so the WWE has actually done more, not less, than it ever has before.

Either Cryme Tyme or Legacy should be Tag Team Champions today. Not Chris Jericho and Big Show, two people who don't need the Tag Titles.

The titles wouldn't affect anything really. It is a myth that lower level titles can elevate people automatically. Legacy benefit more from feuding with DX than from holding low level titles. They might help Cryme Tyme, granted, but for some reason they have been passed over many times, both by upper midcard teams and worse teams. I would have given Cryme Tyme a reign at some point, certainly, but I'm not sure it would really make them any more popular. It didn't help Ryder and HAwkins or The Colons, for example.

And when you push people to the top too quickly, the audience tends to turn on them in this day and age. That is why elevating talent requires a ton of pre-planning ... not just throwing them in the mix with Upper Midcarders/Main Eventers ... and hoping that some rub comes off on them.

Really. So they planned for the audience to hate Kurt Angle and The Rock did they? There is an element of pre-planning, but you cannot anticipate whether or not a crowd will get behind someone. Some people can be given a shitload of push, but go nowhere, e.g. Billy Gunn. Some people can be given scraps and rise unexpectedly, e.g. Jeff Hardy.

Cryme Tyme gained nothing by feuding with Jerishow. Neither did Legacy. Perhaps if either one would have captured the titles, and held them for a lengthy run defending them against other credible tag teams, than that would be a different story.

Legacy already did that, and nobody benefitted. Legacy have gained more from feuding with DX than they ever did from their three tag championship reigns. Actually, it might be 2, I cant remember.

However, thus far, they gained nothing.

And I can guarantee that this backwards philosophy of pushing Dibiase and Rhodes is also going to blow up in their faces. The audience does NOT look at Legacy as a credible threat yet, since they haven't paid their dues.

Right, so the audience would view them as a legitmate threat by beating Jimmy Wang Yang would it? I sincerely doubt it.

They should have worked their way up the roster capturing the Tag Titles, then moved on to capturing a Singles Title, and then moved to the Main Event ... slowly progressing up the ladder. Not move from Orton's lackeys and then thrown right into a Main Event against DX. Again, poor planning on WWE's part, and it's obvious that they learned nothing from their mistakes from prior years.

It's not exactly a singles main event, and it isn't really the same thing. The Islanders main evented the first royal Rumble, oyiu'd never call Haku a main eventer though would you?

2 months, actually. The Tag Team Championship was unified at Mania, and they dropped it two months later in June at the Bash.

They still held a tag title for 9 months, during which time they gained nothing.

They only officially appeared on both shows since the Tag Team Championship was unified.

Not true, the brand split was basically dropped in January.

Yes.

ALLOW ME TO SPEAK LOUD AND CLEAR. YES, THE TAG TEAM DIVISION WAS BETTER LAST YEAR WITH EACH OF THOSE TAG TEAMS THAN IT IS TODAY.

How? Where the matches better? No. Was it more popular? No. Did anyone in the division at all garner any sort of crowd reaction? No. There was two tag titles and maybe a net increase of three teams. You reckon they need 8 teams for this one division now, that means they were about 9 short this time last year, compared to, according to you, 3 short now. Nobody cared about tag wrestling, Rhodes and Holly defende the titles twice in 6 months. The division is healthier now by any yardstick than it was this time last year.

All you need to comprise a remotely competent tag team division is 2-3 good teams, and the rest can range from "satisfactory" to "needs improvement".

Legacy, Cryme Tyme, Jerishow.

Quite frankly, I would rather have my weak links in a Tag Team Division as opposed to the Mid card, anyway.

I'd rather release my weak links, to be honest with you.

It's actually perfectly relevant. Because whether or not people take them seriously will have a tremendous influence on their success in the immediate future. If they aren't perceived as credible, than the audience won't necessarily have an interest in shelling out $40 for a PPV to see them in a Main Event, if they aren't deemed as worthy.

All WWE had to do was gradually develop them the old fashioned way and take them through the ranks, but instead they chose to make them Orton's lackeys, and then immediately propel them to the Main Event.

It worked for Orton and Batista 5 years ago. Stables have produced plenty of main eventers e.g. HHH, The Rock, Chris Benoit.

If WWE plans to keep them in the Main Event, they are going to regret it. However, they can try to salvage their mess by putting those two right back down into the Midcard where they really belong, and hoping for the best by having them to compete for Midcard titles. Unfortunately, it's a little crowded there with people being developed because of Vince botching it over the years.

If Ted DiBiase fights Orton at WrestleMania, it will be a massive disaster, but I don't think that will happen to be honest with you. I can't see that Legacy will be main eventers when they split, as there is no precedent for tag teams to do so. However, I am in total agreement that if they did do it, it would be a disaster for both Legacy themselves and the WWE.

I said that Jerishow didn't do a damn thing for Legacy, and I stand by that.

Maybe, DX did though.

Yes, you are, and I am getting pretty tired of it. And I am probably going to end this argument after this post, because I am tired of both you and I repeating ourselves when we aren't getting anywhere.

Ditto.

Speaking of repeating yourself, once again, nobody said that WWE should focus more on the Tag Team Division than the Main Event. I only stated they should focus more on the Tag Team Division than what they have these past several years.

And I'm not saying that they are focussing on the division, merely that they never have.

Here's a novel concept. Since it is a comprehensive developmental league, why can't it be used to do both? Again, seriously, can people not walk and chew gum at the same time, here?

Apparently not.

Cena, Orton, and Batista have been stars for years now so for you to claim that they are some recent creation of McMahon is plain and simply a fallacy. Punk and Hardy are the only recent stars Vince has helped create.

Fine, what of

One of them was such a good longterm pick that he isn't even in the company anymore. The other is still somewhat green as champion and is still having the waters tested with him as champion.

Back in, say, 1999, how many of the main eventers had Vince recently made? The Rock and HHH. THAT'S THE SAME NUMBER.

I am going to post my exact words below here and address your misleading comments below, once again:

I misread it, I apologise. Genuine oversight. However, that doesn't legitimise your logical fallacy though. You said that the WWE takes 1-3 years now, and that is bad, but then proceed to say that 3-4 years is good. Seeing how 3 is in both of those, your trying to use three year rises, as is the case with Cena and Batista in favour of your argument that now is different to the three year rises of Warrior and Savage. Both groups took three years though.

Rock wasn't in the Main Event until the end of 1998. BTW, are you seriously comparing The Rock to Rhodes and Dibiase?

He wasn't competing until the end of 1996. I don't care who he is, it's still only two years.

No. [Austin] Main Evented in 1998.

No he main evented In Your House 13 in February 1997.

Scott Hall was an established Upper Midcarder in WCW known as the Diamond Studd. As far as Ramon being a Main Eventer, he Main Evented one PPV as Razor Ramon, and that was against Bret Hart at the 1993 Royal Rumble.

After that, it was back to Upper Midcard-Midcard status for him.

I'd hardly say Diamond Studd was an upper midcarder, but I'll let you have this.

Was a benefactor of Vince's steroid trial and Hogan, Savage, and numerous others departing for WCW. Vince only had Hart and Michaels and desperately needed another Main Eventer. Which explains why Diesel was thrown into the mix, as well as Bob Backlund.

Doesn't matter. Still a main eventer inside 2 years. Vince lost loads of main eventers in the early 2000s through no serious fault of his own too - Rock, Lesnar, Austin, and your using that against him.

I've thought of a few more too:

Undertaker debuted 1990, main evented 1991
Yokozuna debuted 1992, main evented 1993
Kane debuted 1997, main evented 1998
Kurt Angle debuted 1999, main evented 2000

They happen once in a very blue moon. Lesnar the most obvious example. But no, they aren't the norm.

They're quite common: Undertaker, Angle, Lesnar, Yokozuna, Kane, they basically happen every 5 years or so. There is a blue moon every 3 years, so actually, they're less common, you're right.

List "plenty of young people the ages of Rhodes and Dibiase" that have been placed in the Main Event only to come back down from it.

As you count tag matches, for some reason, Randy Orton, Kenny Dykstra, Dolph Ziggler, Haku, Paul Roma, Jim Pwers, anyone who's ever been in a main event survivor series match, Mr. Kennedy, Umaga, Chris Benoit, Chris Jerichozzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Rhodes and Dibiase are too young to be taken seriously as Main Eventers. Not what you want to hear, but it's the truth. Maybe some other posters will chime in with their thoughts on Main Eventers Cody Rhodes and Ted Dibiase.

Firstly, they aren't singles main eventers, which is what we are talking about mostly. Secondly, I don't take them seriously as main eventers, and I wouldn't call them that until they have een there in singles competition. I don't consider the Spirit Squad main eventers either.

so it took 3 years to recover from that debacle, which only cheapened his value for those 3 years, when they could have been building, and building, and building him all that time.

So beating Undertaker in HIAC wasn't building him?
That he did. Too bad I don't see Shawn Michaels in either Rhodes or Dibiase.

Michaels put on a very good match with Hart, but probably shouldn't have Main Evented that PPV. Nonetheless, he was with WWE since 1988, so he spent 4 years with the company before Main Eventing. He was put back down to the Midcard division after that match, though.

So was Orton after he ost the title

Even then, it did seem a little early for him to Main Event. But he was one of those guys that had it. Rhodes and Dibiase, at this point in time, have not showed me that they have it to Main Event.

Nor me, but they haven't main evented the way Michaels did. They main evented a PPV tag match the way the Spirit Squad did.

Nope. WWE fans are upset for a reason with Tag Team wrestling, and has been demonstrated in this post, the Tag Team Division was much healthier and much larger in years past compared to today.

Who's upset? Half the IWC? What makes you think that the casual fan cares about the tag division, when there is literally no precedent to suggest that they do.

The real difference is that you emphasize quality as your sole factor in making this determination, where as I emphasize quantity and some quality .... just not to the degree that you do.

I emphasize the things that matter. Making money and putting on a good show. Very few tag teams have ever done the second, and none have done the first, this is not a quirk of the 21st century, but if the internet know it alls want to suggest otherwise, be my guest.