WZCW All Or Nothing 2013 with KB (Review Starts At Post 63)
- Thread starter klunderbunker
- Start date
KB, thanks for this. It means a lot that you would do this for us. You clearly put a lot of effort to get as much out of it as possible and I appreciate it.
Then again, I used to criticise the match writing in the pre-Lee because they completely ignored the roster page. I think it's because we hold such a high standard and rightly so, the roster hold us to a high level.
I cant recall why or when we made that call but why we decided on an hour, I dont know. In hindsight, it's a baffling call.
Remember the guy who wrote it. #ratingswon
Seeing a KC review would be awesome. What I will say is that I had written a small paragraph that was supposed to go above the banner for each match. They didnt get edited in before the show got posted. I blame myself. That would have helped you loads.
You've had a go at us about that but I like it in the right circumstances.
I dont think there's LOADS to be taken away but I would be lying if I didnt ask KB to do this for similar reasons, namely in the spirit of improvement and an opinion from an unbiased judge..
In the old days, they would bracket the named moves, I hated it. This is one thing I would like to see taken away.
We have less of an excuse at PPV when we (generally) have less to write.
Yes, there is a balance that needs to be found.
I think you have to enjoy writing in a certain style to capture Sab/Sax. There are some who did it better than others but that's why I am glad we pick our matches. I think I wrote one Saxton match in my time. I'd rather write a technical match or brawl which is why I'd prefer to write the lower card matches. I only wrote two or three World title matches and I dont think any were for a PPV main event.
Then again, I used to criticise the match writing in the pre-Lee because they completely ignored the roster page. I think it's because we hold such a high standard and rightly so, the roster hold us to a high level.
I cant recall why or when we made that call but why we decided on an hour, I dont know. In hindsight, it's a baffling call.
Again, KC should be epic. I'm very much excited for these next two cycles.
Kermit
the Frog
I am kind of conflicted about your review on the Iron-Man Match. I think the time stamps were a bad idea; I will admit that, but I felt a little trapped whenever I took on a match with a time limit whenever we hardly ever do matches with time limits. Especially one that is 60 minutes. So I felt a need to try to explain time, but I wasn't about to write another 25+ pages(that was the amount of the actual match in MS word). I am curious as to how you would of graded it if there were no time stamps, except for maybe the last 5 minutes.
That being said, the match probably should of been the job of a single man, with no other work on his plate for the PPV. I ended up doing 3 matches because several people were too busy to pick up more than one. I don't want to say that I was stretched, but honestly I was for a single event. Because of that, the match probably suffered.
However, I received good reviews from the two participants, and to be honest that is enough for me. This may sound a bit harsh, but I believe about 80% or more of our roster, if they were honest, would admit that they don't read full matches, except for their own. On top of that, as hinted at several times in your review, our writing is more friendly to actual members of the fed than outside readers. I think that is fine. Sure, the extra things like adding pre-match descriptions and what-not would be nice, but that raises the question if people actually reading and if it is worth going back and doing that extra stuff. I know that we want to create an awesome experience, but after 40+ pages of writing matches for a PPV, I don't really know if I want to go back and add in extra material that 80% of our actual roster will not even read, let alone outside readers.
That was a jumbled up response, but I hope I made some sense if any. Just a side-note, I have no problem with adding in commentary that explains what an actual finisher is (I have done this a lot with new people), but I see no reason to do with members that I have been around so long. Mainly because I am more focused about pleasing actual members and I know that the main audience of my match will be of those who are in it. The other part are probably people who care enough that they already know the finishers.
Also, mini recaps of people's history would be the way to go. I think that Numbers actually did mini-recaps for everyone this round, but they didn't get added for some reason.
And, I absolutely agree that we need to bring more characterization onto the actual shows. I would even go as far and say that we almost need to reiterate what their RP said in some shape or form. Maybe not for everyone, but key character development points should be displayed. I know that most don't read the RP's of others here, so it would be a good way to display who they are and what is going on in their lives.
Sorry to go all over the map here.
Also, I am sorry if I seemed ungrateful at all for your review. Thank you very much for doing it. I know that the match itself had some kinks that are on me the match writer.
That being said, the match probably should of been the job of a single man, with no other work on his plate for the PPV. I ended up doing 3 matches because several people were too busy to pick up more than one. I don't want to say that I was stretched, but honestly I was for a single event. Because of that, the match probably suffered.
However, I received good reviews from the two participants, and to be honest that is enough for me. This may sound a bit harsh, but I believe about 80% or more of our roster, if they were honest, would admit that they don't read full matches, except for their own. On top of that, as hinted at several times in your review, our writing is more friendly to actual members of the fed than outside readers. I think that is fine. Sure, the extra things like adding pre-match descriptions and what-not would be nice, but that raises the question if people actually reading and if it is worth going back and doing that extra stuff. I know that we want to create an awesome experience, but after 40+ pages of writing matches for a PPV, I don't really know if I want to go back and add in extra material that 80% of our actual roster will not even read, let alone outside readers.
That was a jumbled up response, but I hope I made some sense if any. Just a side-note, I have no problem with adding in commentary that explains what an actual finisher is (I have done this a lot with new people), but I see no reason to do with members that I have been around so long. Mainly because I am more focused about pleasing actual members and I know that the main audience of my match will be of those who are in it. The other part are probably people who care enough that they already know the finishers.
Also, mini recaps of people's history would be the way to go. I think that Numbers actually did mini-recaps for everyone this round, but they didn't get added for some reason.
And, I absolutely agree that we need to bring more characterization onto the actual shows. I would even go as far and say that we almost need to reiterate what their RP said in some shape or form. Maybe not for everyone, but key character development points should be displayed. I know that most don't read the RP's of others here, so it would be a good way to display who they are and what is going on in their lives.
Sorry to go all over the map here.
Also, I am sorry if I seemed ungrateful at all for your review. Thank you very much for doing it. I know that the match itself had some kinks that are on me the match writer.
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
Actually I really liked the time stamps. They helped a good bit. The problem was that there was nowhere near an hour's worth of action in the match. As you said, that's likely due to the amount of time you're used to. I tried an Iron Man match in OCW and it was a disaster.
Understandable.
Indeed. Like I said, it's the principle OCW was built on.
Yeah, but if you want to grow your roster with new people, wouldn't it be helpful if they can know what's going on?
Mini would be fine. Like I said, just a brief explanation of why they're fighting would be perfect.
Last night's Punk vs. Cena as an example:
"John Cena won the Royal Rumble back in January but last week his archrival CM Punk challenged him to put up the title shot for one shot at proving he can beat Punk."
Simple, sums up the match, tells you everything you need to know, took ten seconds.
I think just reading the roster page is only half the battle, and that's a point that KB sort of touched on before Doc highlighted it. I don't really have a problem with how many crazy brawls Saxton and Saboteur get into because, let's face it, they're two emotional characters that are prone to recklessness. That said, I think both of them would be likely to tone that down in a match like AoN's match against Bearded Gents since they have no bad blood between them apart from their respective singles losses. Even in our RPs both teams managed to paint the picture of giving respect to each other, but our match seemed like it was between two teams that just wanted to destroy each other. The fight didn't match the RPs, and what's the point of doing all this character development if it's just going to be ignored? (It's worth noting I'm not accusing everyone of doing this or saying this is a serious problem, I'm just saying it should be stamped out completely.)
It reminds me of my Roulette match last year with Johnny Scumm against Overlast and... someone else. I wrote this really serious RP for Saboteur and then he came to the ring with a goofy army of penguins. I'm not sure if this event is as infamous for everyone else as it is for Kermit and myself as I gave him a good deal of negative feedback for that, and while all is forgiven, it's still the perfect example of a writer not using the personality of the character correctly.
I think WZCW has come a long way this past cycle in terms of building feuds, balancing out the card (it's arguably the most balanced the card has ever been in my tenure and probably longer), and getting shows up on time. I think the next task for WZCW is to step up their match writing game. I realize that a lot of this depends on us giving you feedback besides the normal, "Awesome show tonight guys! Great work!" crap that Johnny Scumm pushes, so I'll try to do my part there and encourage others to do so as well.
Kermit
the Frog
Yeah, it is true. I was probably just isolating the situation at PPV in my rebuttal to justify why I didn't have them in my own match.
Kermit
the Frog
You'll never let me live that down! This will be a pivotal point in our feud for KC28.
This kind of makes me scratch my head because half of our staff has been tenured on creative for a good 1-2 years plus. I say scratch my head, because I believe that they do some pretty great work, with the occasional hiccup.
Lulz. I know you're kidding here, but I wanted to clarify that I'm not trying to dog on you here, the penguins are just a really great example of a creative member not writing a match based on the character's personality.
I'd argue that there are 2 or 3 creative members that do consistently great jobs, but the rest are just average, often at best. It's easy to overlook three unimpressive matches when there are two great matches on the card.
Kermit
the Frog
Nah, I understand. I learned from it.
I think you should just go ahead and say who you think they are. I am sure that any creative member would want to know if they are considered the part that is dragging.
I've seen enough TV to know that making a naughty and nice list in public like this always ends poorly. Like I said earlier, I'll try to do some critiquing moving forward and that way all the writers will know what I think they're doing right.
FunKay the Inevitable
People Like Me, We Don't Play
I'm pretty all over the place at times with my match writing. I think i should probably start re-reading more. Lately I've written the match, glanced over it and then posted it. I used to read it, re-read and correct and re-read again. May have to start doing that again.
I agree that a tad more exposition is needed. I'd be going for it myself if I hadn't just spent six weeks getting yelled at for trying to put the slightest bit in for a script I'm working on.
More user friendly for newbies and current members, that's what I mainly take from this, and I think we can do that.
I agree that a tad more exposition is needed. I'd be going for it myself if I hadn't just spent six weeks getting yelled at for trying to put the slightest bit in for a script I'm working on.
More user friendly for newbies and current members, that's what I mainly take from this, and I think we can do that.
ÐаÑбоÑа
doesn't know REAL wrestling...
Even before I started writing matches, I would categorise my own writing as average.
My 'expertise' are in the realm of ideas. Hell, I have been riding the 'idea' of Barbosa the occasional bi-polar schizo since I walked in the door of WZCW. Each and every week I have been waiting for someone to notice that my writing leaves a great deal to be desired. Almost nothing in the way of "excellent" has emerged from my stylus in terms of RPs or matches - I just do not have that creative streak in me and it shows not just in my matches but in my choice of career - ancient history - where creativity goes largely out the window. I'm not sure if people believe me when I say it but I spend an inordinate amount of time on my RPs. It really does take me days and days. Matches are no different.
If I had my choice and I basically told Numbers this when he asked me to join, I would be producing ideas and the occasional segment rather than actually writing matches, but that would be unfair to the rest of Creative.
I would also note that the 'average' match writing can have as much to do with the lack of time we get to write them as it does with our own natural abilities. It is almost always Wednesday before we get all the RPs, which we then have to read and then vote on, then discuss how the results affect our plans and then write the matches. All in about 72 hours.
And if you want to say "why don't you have most of the match planned out beforehand?", for me that is how you end up with a "wrestling match by numbers" (not Numbers) or a disjointed mess.
My 'expertise' are in the realm of ideas. Hell, I have been riding the 'idea' of Barbosa the occasional bi-polar schizo since I walked in the door of WZCW. Each and every week I have been waiting for someone to notice that my writing leaves a great deal to be desired. Almost nothing in the way of "excellent" has emerged from my stylus in terms of RPs or matches - I just do not have that creative streak in me and it shows not just in my matches but in my choice of career - ancient history - where creativity goes largely out the window. I'm not sure if people believe me when I say it but I spend an inordinate amount of time on my RPs. It really does take me days and days. Matches are no different.
If I had my choice and I basically told Numbers this when he asked me to join, I would be producing ideas and the occasional segment rather than actually writing matches, but that would be unfair to the rest of Creative.
I would also note that the 'average' match writing can have as much to do with the lack of time we get to write them as it does with our own natural abilities. It is almost always Wednesday before we get all the RPs, which we then have to read and then vote on, then discuss how the results affect our plans and then write the matches. All in about 72 hours.
And if you want to say "why don't you have most of the match planned out beforehand?", for me that is how you end up with a "wrestling match by numbers" (not Numbers) or a disjointed mess.
I think there are a lot of guys who think that way, Barbie. I certainly think that my ideas for Reese are better than my execution of said ideas. I also think that a good idea can cover for fairly average writing.
Putting on a good voice can cover for mediocre content too, apparently.
Putting on a good voice can cover for mediocre content too, apparently.
Viola Moonlight
I'm Literally Just Here for WZCW
Screw being humble, I'm excellent at everything.
I agree with KB about the Ironman match not having an hours worth of content. I don't feel the match should've even been an hour. On paper, there were a lot of matches scheduled and having a 1 hour main event with intro's and all that, well you'd think it's one of those 5 and a half hour Japanese PPV's.
Maybe bullet points a la TNA's "X-Factors", "Tag Lines", "whatever the rest are called" wouldn't be such a bad idea to recap feuds. It would certainly aid first time readers and at the end of the day, we're looking for expansion not self indulgence, right?
For the record, I did pay for this PPV. Albeit it was with retirement, but it's still payment.
Maybe bullet points a la TNA's "X-Factors", "Tag Lines", "whatever the rest are called" wouldn't be such a bad idea to recap feuds. It would certainly aid first time readers and at the end of the day, we're looking for expansion not self indulgence, right?
For the record, I did pay for this PPV. Albeit it was with retirement, but it's still payment.
You only say that because you're the P.I.C. now.
ÐаÑбоÑа
doesn't know REAL wrestling...
Taking in my poor reading rate, lack of real interest in fantasy writing and lack of time to do said reading and writing on top of a lack of natural creativity, why the hell did I agree to take this on in the first place?
Answers on a postcard.
Answers on a postcard.
ÐаÑбоÑа
doesn't know REAL wrestling...
Ah, how many love affairs have started with pity?
Thriller Ant
Beep Bop Boop
Барбоса;4350867 said:
You wanted to know the match results before everyone else?
My matches were probably considered average as well. I think my issue was that I'd look at the movesets and come up with a couple big spots, but do a formula match in between.
ÐаÑбоÑа
doesn't know REAL wrestling...
Actually, that is another thing I hate about being on Creative.
I loved the reading through the matches not knowing if Barbosa was going to win or lose.
