Winner's Bracket Final #27: Stormtrooper -vs- The Killjoy

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2012' started by D-Man, Apr 23, 2012.

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  1. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Is Vince McMahon a creative genius or an idea thief?


    This is the final debate of the Winner's bracket debate in the 2012 Wrestlezone Debater's League Tournament.

    The Killjoy won the coin toss and will be the home debater. He's earned the right to choose EITHER which side of the debate he wants to argue OR who provides the opening statement. He can also defer this choice to his opponent. (The home debater has 24 hours to make this decision otherwise it is automatically deferred to his opponent.)

    After these choices are made, the first post of the debate must be posted within the first 24 hours otherwise it will affect the starter's Punctuality portion of the judging. Debaters have 24 hours to respond to their opponent's post and the faster the response, the better chance you have to score higher point totals.

    There is no maximum amount of posts for debaters in this round. Debaters can create unlimited replies until the allotted time of the debate runs out.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST where judging will immediately begin. Judging must be finished no later than Saturday at 10pm EST.

    Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

    Good luck to the participants.
     
    #1
  2. ABMorales787

    ABMorales787 Lord And Master
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    I choose to debate that Vince McMahon is a creative genius.
     
    #2
  3. Stormtrooper

    Stormtrooper Championship Contender

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    I choose to go second.
     
    #3
  4. ABMorales787

    ABMorales787 Lord And Master
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    McMahon: Mastermind

    [​IMG]


    Professional wrestling has existed for ages. Based all the way back to the days of the Greek. Hell, gladiators can be considered the base of modern pro wrestlers. Making Spartacus the predecessor to "Stone Cold" Steve Austin. However today, pro wrestling is a concept that can make millions in one day. All thanks to the ideas of one man:

    [​IMG]

    Vincent Kennedy McMahon. The man, the myth, the legend is responsable for so many money making ideas that one has to realize that deep under the ego, this man is pure genius. Thanks to him, Wrestlemania made 1.3 mil buys this year. Hell, he came up with the concept of Wrestlemania. A wrestling supercard that brought all possible mainstream attention to it, it's recognized as one of the biggest televised events of the year, and easily one of the most profitable. This man took his father's family business and turned it into a juggernaut that passes ink suit actors in colored undeys as modern day heroes and villains to the everyman. Calling the man who everyone in the field of pro wrestling wishes to emulate will be a near impossible task. Whether its running a TV show, organizing a major event or simply getting on TV and boosting ratings with his antics, his genius and creativity can't be ignored.

    [​IMG]
    Face it. When we watch Raw, that's what we're doing.

    This man's success has led him to many battles and victories over the years as well as having to deal with many hardships. Whether it's the Monday Night Wars, dealing with troublesome wrestlers or simply coming up with a way to get over a million buys for a PPV, he always gets his way.

    * Monday Night Raw

    * Wrestlemania

    * Modernizing Pro Wrestling into a global, million dollar business.

    * Selling out arenas worldwide.

    * Record breaking attendances, viewership and buys.

    * Attitude Era and his feud with "Stone Cold" Steve Austin.

    Some of the things that have come as proof of his amazing mind for business. Tough Enough, The Diva Search, development territories and WWEShop.com fall under some of his more ignored but still successful ventures. Under the WWE umbrella is nothing but money making made possible by a "fake" sport. On top of the world and unmatched since 2001, the fact that no other wrestling has reached a point of challenging it without by some way imitating it, shows WWE and by form, Vince McMahon is a marketing and commercial genius.
     
    #4
  5. Stormtrooper

    Stormtrooper Championship Contender

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    [​IMG]

    Vince McMahon is the greatest wrestling promoter of all time. His brilliance at wrestling promotion helped turn his regional promotion into a global Billion Dollar Corporation. However, he is also an idea thief, who steals from various different sources to make his product profitable. This is not at all uncommon in the world of business, and is in no way discrediting Vince McMahon. His biggest achievements and ideas, while in some instances he was the first to do them in Wrestling, are hardly new to the business world. Lets look at some of his ideas that make people think McMahon is a Creative Genius:


    1. Global Expansion
    [​IMG]

    When Vince McMahon purchased WWE from his father in 1982, he started looking into expanding his regional promotion based out of New York into a National promotion. He ultimately proved successful, and eliminated his competition to become a National, and Global company.

    This isn't new at all in the world of business, nor in the world of traveling entertainment. Major League Baseball started out in the North-East and North mid-west (the southern-most, and Western-most city was St/ Louis). By the time McMahon started his expansion process, Major League Baseball expanded to 26 teams, spanning the entire nation.

    And National exposure is not even all that new in wrestling. In the late 40's and early 50's, professional wrestling was nationally broadcast on television. This was before McMahon started Saturday Nights Main Event on NBC.

    2. WrestleMania:

    [​IMG]

    In March of 1985, Vince McMahon created a Supercard called WrestleMania. Supposedly Vince McMahon had “bet the farm” on the success of WrestleMania, and if it failed, the company would go under. WrestleMania was a great success and is a large contributing factor in the WWE's emergence into a Global corporation.

    However, Supercards were hardly a new phenomenon in Wrestling. The NWA had started running their annual Starrcade show in late 1983, over a year before WrestleMania I. This was headlined by a classic Cage match for the NWA Title between Ric Flair and Harley Race. The following year (4 months before WrestleMania), Starrcade II was main evented by Ric Flair and Dusty Rhodes. Their referee was Boxing legend Smokin Joe Frazier. Three months before Muhammad Ali was an Outside referee for the WrestleMania Main Event, his biggest rival was the Ref for the NWA World Heavyweight Title.


    3. Attitude Era:
    [youtube]zKWlEOqfIU4[/youtube]​

    After being dominated by WCW in the weekly Ratings war, WWE started to regain popularity thanks to an era that is now referred to as the Attitude Era. During this era, the WWE placed emphasis on violence, sexual innuendo/references, and low-brow humor.

    Before WWE started getting it's attitude, there was a regional promotion based out of Philadelphia called ECW. This promotion was doing the exact same thing (albeit to a further degree), and rode that wave of violence from being a low-rate indy promotion to being the 3rd biggest promotion in the country, with a National TV deal, Pay Per Views, and Video Games. In fact, WWE had not started showing off their “Attitude” until AFTER they did a brief Cross-Promotional effort with ECW back in early 1997.


    Vince McMahon is a legend of Wrestling Promotion. However, he is hardly a creative genius. He did a brilliant job of using already-proven tactics to make his company what it is today.
     
    #5
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  6. ABMorales787

    ABMorales787 Lord And Master
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    What Defines A Creative Genius?

    Stormy says that Vince McMahon emulated the idea of globalizing pro wrestling from the MLB and other sports franchises. First off, last I checked, MLB games don't take place anywhere outside North-America. WWE shows do. Secondly, just because it was done in baseball, doesn't mean he could just translate that to wrestling. It was a totally different field. It was a promotional business, not a sport. McMahon had to be creative to somehow convince people to join him in a place that had long since been established as being a conglomerate of multiple promotions. Mr. McMahon applied his creativity to lure the likes of Andre The Giant, Hulk Hogan and "Macho Man" Randy Savage, popular wrestlers, and turn them into media icons.

    How'd he do it? Well Stormy says supercard's weren't new. Well, no kidding. WWWF ran those too, don'tcha know? They just didn't have a catchy name. What Mr. McMaho really did was apply a new concept to turn his over-the-top wrestlers into TV sensations. In so, he coined them as "Superstars", lured pop star Cindi Lauper and TV action star Mr. T along with boxing icon Muhammad Ali to turn his wrestling business into "Sport Entertainment". All of which payed off in the formation of "Wrestlemania". A PPV supercard surrounded by media attention, pop icons and a slew of characters and stories so vivid, you had to pay for that one show. Thus PPV became a profitable form of broadcast. And Mr. McMahon became a very profitable man by applying these unique strategies which to this day still make millions for him and are emulated by other promotions.

    [YOUTUBE]xVofzRTFrQY&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]
    Even Creativity Hurts.


    Stormy says the "Attitude Era" wasn't McMahon's ideas. Boy, talk about vague. Everything was edgier in the 90's. McMahon however implemented the defining tool of the era and used it to defeat WCW and ECW. It was himself. Stone Cold Steve Austin was proving to be a major money maker. But he needed that adversary that could match him. Enter Mr. McMahon. The megalomaniac that just could not let go. It was their moments together that created some of the most watched wrestling ever. From Steve Austin stunning him for the first time to the Corporation, McMahon and The Rock vs Mankind and Austin, the Higher Power, McMahon winning the WWF title and beyond, Vincent Kennedy McMahon helped define that era from the outside. On the inside, he scripted and marketed it until driving their competitors out of business. Last I checked, WCW nor ECW had their on-screen figure trying to torment their top star.

    The Power Of One

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Every belt has it's centerpiece. That same way, every era in the WWE has had one defining figure. That one top babyface that represented everything the company stood for at the time. This one guy did a million dollar function composed of making fans want to see him win and pay for it, to buy any merchandise related to him and make the media appearances that would have the pop culture world talking about them. This was one of the many marketing ideas that helped WWE rise into fame with Hulk Hogan as the initial posterboy in said function. His popularity skyrocketed with the WWE hype machine. Mr. McMahon is responsible for turning his top draws into pop culture figures.
     
    #6
  7. Stormtrooper

    Stormtrooper Championship Contender

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    He came up with WrestleMania, but not the Supercard. Starrcade was around first, as was countless other cards. And celebrity involvement was also around beforehand. There's nothing creative about a Supercard. His was successful, but that doesn't mean that his was creative while the others weren't.
    And WrestleMania made 1.3 million buys because of The Rock. Not Vince McMahon.
    And you had a list of things you said he created. Lets take a look at that list, shall we? I omitted the ones I already proved otherwise, so as to not repeat myself.
    1. Monday Night Raw
      A TV show. There's been dozens upon dozens of wrestling TV shows. RAW has lasted longer then most of them, but it's a revolutionary idea. They just had a 1-hour long wrestling show.
    2. Modernizing Pro Wrestling into a global, million dollar business:
      Yeah, he did this. But that's not a new idea in the world of business. Look at any billion dollar business, and they started as a small regional entity before expanding. There's nothing creative in this. McMahon deserves credit for it, but it isn't a sign of creativity of any sorts.
    3. Selling out arenas worldwide:
      Yeah, that's also nothing new, and not at all an idea or creative in any sense of the word. Arenas have been sold out for as long as there's been arenas, it's a sign that your product is successful and affordable. Boxing sold out arenas worldwide before Vince McMahon was even conceived.
    4. Record breaking attendances, viewership and buys:
      Again, this is nothing creative about selling out buildings. It's a sign of success, but there's nothing creative about it.
    5. Tough Enough:
      Tough Enough was a reality show that debuted after the success of Survivor, which came first. The prize was a contract with WWE. Reality TV is not a new idea Vince McMahon came up with, he just followed a trend (he got in on it early, but was not first).
    6. The Diva Search:
      Same as Tough Enough. A reality show (in this case a reality show inside a show) that debuted YEARS after the Reality craze started (and arguably after the reality craze ended). The winner got a WWE Divas contract. It's a reality show. Nothing new there (or entertaining, but that's a different story).
    7. Development Territories:
      WWE employs one or 2 independent companies to train potential superstars and run a WWE-style independent promotion. This is exactly what Major League Baseball and the National Hockey League do with its minor leagues. They take guys that they think have potential but are not ready for the big leagues, and perfect their craft in the minor league. Another idea Vince McMahon didn't come up with. It's a good idea, but not original.
    8. WWEShop.com:
      An online retail outlet for WWE memorabilia. Amazon.com and Ebay both launched prior to WWEShop.com (formerly WWF Shopzone).
    What Defines A Creative Genius?

    What defines a Creative Genius? Doing something that is original. Vince McMahon doesn't do that. He takes ideas that have worked before (either in wrestling, entertainment, or business) and incorporates them into his Wrestling Entertainment business.
    Well, Baseball does take place all over the world. But if you don't like baseball as an example, lets use another one.
    Popular Music. The Beatles sold out arenas all over the world in the Mid 60's. WWF didn't go national until the mid 80's. That's 20 years before. Oh, and the Beatles hardly were the first group to sell out buildings all over the world. How about Elvis? The Rolling Stones? The Who? All of these came out before WWE became a global (or even national) entity.

    Starrcade is a pretty catchy name, actually. And as I previously said, celebrity involvement was hardly new to wrestling in the 1980's. They were commonly used in non-wrestling capacities. Occasionally, they would be used for more physical activities, though.
    [youtube]KqiLCtF8I8[/youtube] [youtube]8l_Xm8GQW14[/youtube]
    This was in 1982. McMahon didn't buy the WWF from his father until later in this year. Again, celebrity involvement in wrestling is not at all a new venture that Vince McMahon came up with. He took the existing idea and used it for his product.

    Actually, I was saying that the era itself was defined by the emphasis on violence and sex, and pushing the envelope as far as they could, which is what they did. I didn't use individual examples because I didn't need to. They made their product a tamer version of ECW, and it helped make WWE reach mainstream success again. Steve Austin was a foul mouthed beer-swilling anti-hero. The Sandman started the beer drinking, and ECW was known for its foul language.
    And Eric Bischoff (the legit WCW boss) was a heel authority figure of the nWo back in 1996, when McMahon was still just known as just a commentator. So another thing McMahon was beat out on.
    Vince McMahon didn't come up with anything original when he had the boss feud with the top guy. The majority of the lower and middle class hate their boss. It was a case of art imitating life.

    The Power Of One
    So Vince McMahon helped turn his top guy into pop culture figures. Pop Culture figures are nothing new. There's nothing original about making someone a pop culture figures. Babe Ruth was a pop culture figure. So are The Beatles. While it may not have been all that common in wrestling, that doesn't mean that Vince McMahon created it. It means he stole it from another avenue of entertainment.


    Vince McMahon is an idea thief. There's nothing wrong with that. It made him a Billionaire, but it doesn't make him a creative genius. And if you ask him, I think he'd rather be a Billionaire then a Creative Genius.
     
    #7
  8. ABMorales787

    ABMorales787 Lord And Master
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    Why are these ideas so successful in the WWE alone then? It's because it takes more than imitating something else. There needs to be a full transition from one outlet to another and just because there's a basic template out there doesn't mean an idea was stolen. There used to be wrestling TV programs. Then came Monday Night Raw on primetime and live. You could go to a wrestling event and buy merch at the stands, but WWF Shopzone made it available worldwide. You keep saying McMahon isn't creative because he incorporates ideas outside of wrestling and transitions them into wrestling. Doesn't that make him... I don't know... creative for being the first to incorporate these new breakthroughs into his profession? And seriously, Tough Enough = Survivor? You go from people trying to survive in an island to people working to prove they are worthy to be WWE Superstars and say they are the same concept? Just because it's the same genre? I suppose next you'll say The Fresh Prince wasn't unique because it imitating Chavo Del Ocho.

    Now you're comparing fruit to meat. Since when were musicians kept in local areas? Selling out a building isn't new? No. Seeing wrestling from the U.S. being broadcast worldwide however was. Mr. M made it possible.

    He did come up with the winning equation though. No one thought about putting so many celebrities under one supercard. No one thought about using them to promote one particular show. Wrestlemania still stands a totally unique concept due to the build, the stars and such. When people look back at Wrestlemania they see it as a unique concept, not a brush up of Starcade mixed with Andy Kaufman.

    And Vince McMahon stands as the first to incorporate that art into wrestling. When people look back at these authority figures, McMahon stands as the innovator, not Eric Bischoff because he played second to Hulk Hogan.


     
    #8
  9. Stormtrooper

    Stormtrooper Championship Contender

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    Tough Enough wasn't original because it only came about thanks to the success of Survivor. Survivor proved that competition reality shows can be successful. Tough Enough came about because of it.

    WWF Shopzone came about because buying products from home has been around forever. Amazon.com proved that Online shopping can work, and Shopzone came along eventually later. Before online, though, people were using their phones to buy stuff. They'd watch an infomercial, or they'd see an ad in a magazine or something.

    1. Fruit and meat are both types of food, and people choose either one. It's actually not a terrible comparison.

    2. Local bands stay local. Small-time bands that don't reach the levels of success that massive bands do stay local. Hell, some of them are actually really good (and better then the bands that reach international prominence).

    3. Worldwide broadcasts of television was not new. You act like McMahon created everything. He didn't. It's been done. No, it wasn't done in wrestling, but that doesn't mean that he created it.


    It was a star-studded supercard. That's not overly creative. Both supercards and celebrities have been involved in wrestling for decades before WrestleMania.

    So people won't look back on Eric Bischoff being the first Heel boss figure, even though he WAS first? That kinda sucks for him.


    I compare all 3 because they are all forms of entertainment competing for the publics money. They are in direct competition with each other. It's like comparing ESPN to the Food Network. They compete for ratings.

    You become a Billionaire by stealing successful ideas, and incorporating them into your business model. And none of those people you listed were really creative geniuses. MAYBE Disney, since they actually create some things.


    According to Killjoy, taking an existing product or business model and using it in your business is creative. It's not. It's smart, but not creative. McMahon didn't create anything new. He took existing stuff and used it for himself. Smart business, yes. NOT creative.
     
    #9
  10. ABMorales787

    ABMorales787 Lord And Master
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    McMahon's Creativity, Art And Hamburgers

    [​IMG]
    Brand extension? Done bef... Wait a minute, this one hasn't been done before.

    As Stormy keeps replying I notice a pattern to his replies. Specifically the way he attempts to shoot down my examples of Mr. McMahon's creativity. See, he says that Wrestlemania was not an original concept because there were already wrestling supercards, celebrities in wrestling and PPV. He also says that globalizing WWE wasn't his idea because the MLB did it first. Nor is making a wrestler a pop icon because the music business did it first.

    [​IMG]
    When's a burger not a burger?

    Bollocks, boy. Just because things are similar does not make them the same. You can be creative and original even if there are similar things out there. How so? Well it's the world of business and the world of art mixed together. You see pieces, bits of data from here and there. Then you get the inspiration to make something new out of what's already there. Look at a burger. You go to McDonalds or Burger King or Wendy's. Their burgers all carry their own unique design. McDonalds wasn't the first burger joint in the world. But it damn sure was the one who came up with the Big Mac. It's a hamburger, but it's Mickie D's own unique one. It carries it's identity to make it different to any other burger. Same with Wendy's Baconator. Or is it not original because there were already burgers with bacon? Wrong son. It's original because it carries an identity of it's own. Just because it features fragments that can be related to other burgers doesn't make it a copied concept. Same with Wrestlemania. It may feature bits that can be related to previous concepts of wrestling, but Mr. McMahon developed his own unique formula that nabs him millions every year.


    [​IMG]
    Good thing they're labelled.

    You want to know what a real idea thief looks like? Look again at the food industry and look at Pepsi. You put it next to Coca Cola and the only way to tell them apart is because of the label. Now look at Wrestlemania and Starracade. Could you confuse the two? Nope. Look at the Attitude Era and ECW. Could you confuse the two? Nope. The Sandman and Steve Austin? Could you confuse the two? Well Austin 3:16 said "Nope".

    [​IMG]
    Sorry dude, but you drew a cat. Those already exist, try again.

    Stormy says Vince McMahon is not a creative genius because he took concepts outside of wrestling and adapted them to it. In the world of art, that's like saying I drew a cat but it's unoriginal because the cat I drew exists. No matter if the drawing was a portrait or abstract. The cat can be white but you painted it green, it's unoriginal you cunt, the cat's already there. I guess that makes poor Jeff uncreative due to most of his art being his face. Sorry abstract guys, but you are unoriginal and Stormy looks down on you.

    [​IMG]
    And FYI, skaters and free runners already grinded rail handles. Fuken copycat.

    According to Stormy, writing a sitcom of any kind will never be original because sitcoms already exist. You cannot spin it in any way, shape or form, you are a unoriginal idea stealer and you should be sued. Of course, in the business world, as in reality, an innovator is one who can adapt to the changing times using the tools available around him to create new forms of progress in your business. An example. Once again in the food service industry. Th advent of Wi-Fi brought the possibility of attracting costumers to Burger King via this new piece of technology. Every Burger King in Puerto Rico has free Wi-Fi. However, Burger King did not invent this device. And it was first available in homes before it became available in fast-foods. Burger King went to the trouble of having every restaurant in the island have a router installed to offer Wi-Fi. Is Burger King being creative for taking Wi-Fi and making it commercially available? Or is it an idea thief for taking the already existing wireless router and using it for a more commercial purpose? Same can be applied with Vince McMahon.
     
    #10
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  11. Stormtrooper

    Stormtrooper Championship Contender

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    McMahon's (lack of) Creativity, "Art" And "Hamburgers"




    [​IMG]
    OH, YOU'RE SO CREATIVE, YOU'RE CUTTING IT IN HALF! (sarcasm)


    A Burger isn't a burger when it's disgusting looking crap. And really, who has ever seen a Big Mac on a plate?



    None of those things are anywhere near creative. Putting a sauce on a burger isn't creative. Neither is putting a lot of bacon and sauce on a burger. The only creative aspect of either of those examples is the name. Big Mac and Baconator. Everything else is unoriginal. Similarly, WrestleMania is the same. Everything that McMahon did with WrestleMania was taken from other sources. There's nothing creative about taking another persons idea and having success with it.



    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif][​IMG] [​IMG][/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif][​IMG] [​IMG][/FONT]
    Congrats Vince, your version of the Supercard was successful. Doesn't mean you're creative.


    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Coke and Pepsi have different tastes. To think otherwise is just insane. However, that's irrelevant to our discussion. Wrestlemania is a Supercard that uses celebrities. It wasn't even the first. Just because it was successful doesn't make it creative. [/FONT]


    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif][​IMG][/FONT]
    Sorry Vince, you traced a cat. NOT CREATIVE!


    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Vince McMahon taking existing ideas and moving them is like tracing an image of a cat. You just follow the lines, and you have yourself a nice image of a cat. Just like what Vince did. You follow the ideas that others have proven successful, and you have yourself a successful business.

    [/FONT]

    Putting Wi-Fi in your restaurant is a good idea. But Burger King is hardly the first company to put Wi-Fi in their establishments. They're Idea Thieves. Just like Vince. He wasn't the first to do anything, hence he's an idea thief.


    And I take offense to you saying I look down on all these people. I never said that, and I never even discredited Vince McMahon for being a successful businessman. There is nothing at all wrong with being an idea thief. All it means is that you are not creative. McMahon is still a brilliant businessman, he's just an idea thief.
     
    #11
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  12. ABMorales787

    ABMorales787 Lord And Master
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    The business world is a very creative-friendly world. You are required to consistently pump out concepts to continue your business and keep the flow of cash coming. In the article linked above we see examples of what is perceived as creative thought processes in the business world. WWE is a business. It's main goal is to produce money by promoting it's stars. Therefor there is a team designed with the task of thinking of how to produce money in new ways. For over 30 years, Vince McMahon has headlined that team. He surrounds himself with the tools necessary to see what will push the WWE forward. You look at all the unique aspects the WWE possesses that no other wrestling company has and you can see that Vince McMahon is a man of vision. You look at how he booked the main event of Wrestlemania 28 a year in advanced in order to spark interest as early as possible and you look at the result and see it worked.

    [​IMG]
    The epitome of a cash cow idea.

    And that does not take all the Team Bring It and Team CeNation shirts sold, which you know were a lot. A second recent example of Vince's genius. CM Punk, Money In The Bank, Chicago Illinois. Mr. McMahon gave CM Punk the freedom to speak his mind one time and as consequence came one of the most riveting stories in recent history as well as one of the top PPV's in years and one of the best matches. All topped in a memorable moment that established CM Punk as a bonafide top babyface along with guys like Hulk Hogan, The Rock, John Cena and Randy Orton. A business move that allowed merch sales to reach great heights to the point that they ran out of CM Punk t-shirts. A first for WWE.

    [​IMG]
    They even built a story around this type of tension.

    As the article above reads, change forces your employees to stay on their toes. You look at the WWE and you recall how the wrestlers did not take like to The Rock and now Brock Lesnar. It lets them know that they need to step up because there are other resources out there that can be used. In contrast you look at the contracts of these two men. The Rock requiring minimal appearances all done so Wrestlemania could reach record sales and it did. And you look at Brock Lesnar. 30+ appearances from here to April, no house shows and pay-per-appearance. All this to spark new interest in fans. And boy are they working. It's these negotiations that make Vince McMahon a creative genius who can always find a way to keep the flow of cash going without skipping a beat.
     
    #12
  13. Stormtrooper

    Stormtrooper Championship Contender

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    Way to reply to a single thing I said. I mean I know it's impossible to reply in 4 minutes, but you didn't even try to. Why? Because you know I'm right.

    And that article has absolutely nothing to do with anything regarding Vince McMahon being a Creative genius. All it says is that creativity is important.

    Here's what I get out of this paragraph.
    1. Vince McMahon hired creative people
    2. He is the boss that OK's the creative process.

    So he has creative people on his staff. That doesn't make HIM creative, that makes his STAFF creative. Surrounding yourself with the tools necessary to improve your company isn't creative, it's required by all businesses. You own a pizzeria, you are gonna hire pizza makers, not car salesmen. You're saying that since Vince hires pizza makers for his pizza shop he is creative. He's just not stupid.

    Pitting your biggest star ever with your top star isn't creative, it's logic.

    And you want to talk about the year long buildup being creative? It isn't. Movies have teasers and trailers come out a year in advance all the time. Video games do the same.

    Again, success =/= creativity.

    So now you're saying a worked shoot is something new and creative in wrestling? I thought you were a wrestling fan. That shit is common-place, especially in places like WCW. And a title change in ones hometown? And selling out T-shirts? Yeah, all this shit happens all the time.

    Again, success =/= creativity.


    So Vince McMahon is creative because he signs people to part-time contracts? Top stars in WCW had guys who didn't have to appear at Thunder, guys had contracts that allowed them to not be at PPVs. People in all walks of life have part-time jobs.


    So lets get this straight.
    1. Hiring part-time employees
    2. hiring creative people to be creative
    3. Utilizing the common act in wrestling known as a "Worked Shoot"
    4. selling out of merchandise

    these things are what you say makes Vince McMahon a creative genius? Yeah, that just makes him a boss, not creative in any sense of the word.

    Nice tactic there, Killjoy. You stopped arguing the one point (that you knew was wrong) so that you can get a new post up quick so you can hope to get punctuality points. You guy it up quick, but you're still wrong.
     
    #13
  14. ABMorales787

    ABMorales787 Lord And Master
    Staff Member Administrator

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    A Concluding Thought

    [​IMG]
    Creativity...


    It's Friday, and debate time is almost over. So with that, I'll leave my last thoughts on this matter. To find out if Vince McMahon, the man who revolutionized pro wrestling is a creative genius or just a man who copies ideas, one has to look at the details of his success. The man rolls with the times and at times, people believe he just steals ideas because there are similar one's out there. ECW came before the Attitude Era, yes. But were the matches in that era under ECW's Extreme Rules? No they were not. Staracade came before Wrestlemania,yes. But was Starcade as well built as Wrestlemania? No, it was not.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Revolution Men? Or just guys who ripped off similar markets?

    If McMahon using similar concepts around him, adapting them and turning them into major profit makes him a copycat, what about General Electrics? What about Steve Jobs? What about Nintendo? General Electrics is a revolutionary in the field of home appliances. But we don't look at them as copycats for taking Thomas Edison's lightbulb, spinning it, and turning it into a household appliance we can't live without. Steve Jobs and Apple revolutionized countless times the handheld appliance market with their iPod and iPhone, but smartphones and MP3's were nothing new when these came out. Is Steve Jobs looked at as a copycat for it? Is Nintendo looked at as copycat for developing any console they've developed? They were never the first. Nor with home consoles, nor with handhelds, touchscreens or even motion-sensor remotes. They are still seen as revolutionaries. We don't look at IBM, LG, Verizon and other electronic companies as copycat's for taking existing concepts and developing their own unique ones based on those. Do we look at Toyota, Honda or any other car company as idea stealers for making their own cars? Nope. Copycats do not survive in the business world and often find themselves lower on the totem pole than what they imitated. Stormy want's us to believe that Mr. McMahon is a copycat for taking an already existing concept and expanding it to a million dollar scale. There is no way he could've achieved such a level of success unless he inputted his creativity into this.

    [​IMG] = [​IMG]?
    I don't recall Mario or Link being in my Atari.

    Vince McMahon is a creative genius because he's been able to take whatever is out there and turned it into a major money making asset. If his ideas were stolen, the so-called originators could be noted as being more successful. But they aren't. If you copy off of someone's test, you either get the same grade or lower. There is no way to become more successful by copying an idea directly, therefor Mr. McMahon is indeed a creative mind that we hold responsible for revolutionizing pro wrestling. After all, it's his ideas that get copied in the wrestling world as this board can gladly let you know. Except Stormy. He's too busy trying to undermine what I say to say otherwise.
     
    #14
  15. Stormtrooper

    Stormtrooper Championship Contender

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    2 can play the "have a post waiting in the wings for immediately after the opponent replies" game.

    In Conclusion



    Killjoy wants you to think that Vince McMahon is a creative genius. Vince McMahon is a BUSINESS genius, as he has turned his small regional wrestling promotion into a global billion dollar corporation. However, nothing he has done is creative. His methods of success for his company were proven methods of success from various walks of life, that McMahon used in his own company. There is nothing wrong with this, in fact, it's a smart way to run your business. However, it does not make you creative. It makes you an idea thief.


    Killjoy wants you to think that a Supercard that has celebrities is creative, when Supercards have had celebrities involved long before WrestleMania.


    Killjoy wants you to think that the companies expansion was creative, when 99% of all global businesses started as smaller, regional companies.


    Killjoy wants you to think that the Attitude Era was creative, when ECW expanded using the exact same methods of gaining popularity before WWE started doing it.


    Killjoy wants you to think that Monday Night RAW is creative, when in actuality live television has been around for decades.


    Killjoy wants you to think that making a wrestler a pop culture figure was creative, when Pop Culture figures have been around for a century.


    Killjoy wants you to think that Tough Enough and the Diva Search were creative. They were reality shows that both came out after the Reality boom started.


    Killjoy wants you to think that the development territories is creative. The development territories is just WWE's version of Minor League Baseball, which has been around for a century.


    Killjoy wants you to think that WWEShop.com is creative, when it actually is just a WWE clone of Amazon.com.


    Killjoy wants you to think that hiring creative people is creative, when it is really just smart business.


    Killjoy wants you to think that hiring part-time workers is creative, when part-time employment has been around forever.


    Killjoy wants you to think that promoting a match for a year is creative, when movies and Video games are both regularly promoted at least a year in advance.


    Killjoy wants you to think that a worked shoot is creative, when in actuality it is a common method of creating buzz in professional wrestling.


    Killjoy wants you to think that selling out merchandise is creative, when it just means that either the merchandise is popular or they didn't have enough merchandise to begin with.
     
    #15
  16. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Debating in this thread is now closed.

    Judges, you may begin.
     
    #16
  17. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    Clarity - This would have gone to Killjoy if for not one error on his part. His quoting error shall gives this to Stormtrooper.

    Point - Stormtrooper

    Punctuality - Killjoy was usually faster, and even got a post in in five minutes. FAST LIKE LIGHTNING!!!!

    Point - The Killjoy

    Informative - I liked what Killjoy presented more. Merely a matter of preference since outside sources were scarce.

    Point - The Killjoy

    Persuasion - It seems to me that Stormtrooper's argument was more trying to disprove everything that Killjoy was saying, but not exactly fighting for his own side. If that makes sense to others. Both guys did a solid job throughout, but overall Killjoy got me over more. I liked his use of Steve Jobs getting in there as, what I thought, a great example in his conclusion.

    Points - The Killjoy

    This debate to me is closer than the score reflects. Could go either way on probably all four of the criteria. Hopefully Trooper doesn't get discouraged at my score. He did a solid job.

    CH David scores this The Killjoy 4, Stormtrooper 1.
     
    #17
  18. Nate DaMac

    Nate DaMac Fuck erbody but me

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    Before I get into the judging, I have to say that this debate has been by far the most entertaining read thus far. I'm not going by the criteria put forth, just the overall entertainment value. Great work, guys.

    Clarity- Both were damn good here, but the quoting mishap gives it to Stormy. It's a small complaint but it's all I really have to go on since both sides were so good.

    -Stormtrooper

    Punctuality- Killjoy had a post up 5 minutes after Stormtrooper. Yeah, I know he probably had it ready beforehand, but even when Stormtrooper tried to mimic, it took him 20 minutes.

    -Killjoy

    Informative- The article KJ linked up was probably the most informative part of the debate. Not many outside sources here, but Killjoy gets the point for supporting his side with more fact than opinion.

    -Killjoy

    Persuasion- Killjoy provided gleaming examples of the creativity Vince had to have to create his empire. Stormtrooper fought valiantly and showed that Vince didn't necessarily come up with every idea, but if it were really as simple "He stole that from so and so," somebody, ANYbody else in the wrestling world would have been a fraction of the success Vince was in wrestling. Stormy never had a real answer for that.

    -Killjoy

    Nate scores it Killjoy 4, Stormtrooper 1.
     
    #18
  19. FunKay the Inevitable

    FunKay the Inevitable People Like Me, We Don't Play

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    Clarity: Misquote gives Stormtrooper the edge. Plus I liked the idea behind the conclusion.

    Punctuality: KillJoy is a beast at this. An absolute animal. His point.

    Informative: KillJoy but this was more about the way he used his sources to back up his points rather than sheer amount.

    Persuasion: I agree (shocking isn't it?) with CH David for umpteenth time; Stormtrooper's argument was more about proving KillJoy wrong than answering the question. He did provide solid work, but the bulk was to try and prevent KillJoy from proving his which ultimately didn't work and the fact that Vince is (probably) a creative genius shone through to KillJoy's advantage. Great effort from both men though.

    FunKay Scores It: KillJoy: 4, Stormtrooper: 1
     
    #19
  20. Dagger Dias

    Dagger Dias Natural 20
    Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Clarity: Stormtrooper. He had the more organized posts and free of quote typos.

    Punctuality: Killjoy. He was super fast with his responses.

    Informative: Killjoy. He presented superior information, although both did good here.

    Persuasive: Killjoy. I would say that both argued very strongly, but Killjoy had a more convincing argument for his stance and kept fighting to prove himself to be right.

    I score it as: Killjoy 4, Stormtrooper 1. Great job guys.
     
    #20
  21. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Congratulations to The Killjoy who defeats Stormtrooper by a decisive score of 16-4. He has become the 2012 Winner's bracket champion!!!

    Although Stormtrooper is down, he is not out. He's received his first loss and moves down to Loser's bracket #29 to earn the Loser's bracket championship spot. After that, he can get a rematch with The Killjoy and still win this thing.

    Great work.
     
    #21
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