Winner's Bracket Debate #15: Stormtrooper -vs- Pancake

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2012' started by D-Man, Apr 2, 2012.

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  1. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Would jumping to the WWE benefit or hurt Rob Van Dam?


    This is a second round, winner's bracket debate in the 2012 Wrestlezone Debater's League Tournament.

    Stormtrooper won the coin toss and will be the home debater. He's earned the right to choose EITHER which side of the debate he wants to argue OR who provides the opening statement. He can also defer this choice to his opponent. (The home debater has 24 hours to make this decision otherwise it is automatically deferred to his opponent.)

    After these choices are made, the first post of the debate must be posted within the first 24 hours otherwise it will affect the starter's Punctuality portion of the judging. Debaters have 24 hours to respond to their opponent's post and the faster the response, the better chance you have to score higher point totals.

    There is no maximum amount of posts for debaters in this round. Debaters can create unlimited replies until the allotted time of the debate runs out.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 5pm EST where judging will immediately begin. Judging must be finished no later than Sunday at 11am EST.

    Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

    Good luck to the participants.
     
    #1
  2. Stormtrooper

    Stormtrooper Championship Contender

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    As the home debater, I will choose which side of the debate I want.

    I say that jumping to WWE would BENEFIT Rob Van Dam.
     
    #2
  3. GI Cake

    GI Cake Thank God For Sodamy.

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    I will let the troopster go first
     
    #3
  4. Stormtrooper

    Stormtrooper Championship Contender

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    Rob Van Dam is an immensely popular wrestler. He wrestles a high-flying style that is popular, and his laid back attitude makes is just as popular. This style led him to a hugely successful career in ECW, WWF/WWE, and even TNA. Rob Van Dam is still employed by TNA, but it is in my opinion that it would be beneficial to him to jump ship back to WWE. There are For main reasons for this.
    1. Rob Van Dam has been misused in TNA.
    In March of 2010, Rob Van Dam Rob Van Dam debuted on TNA Impact. He had an extremely impressive debut, in which he defeated Sting in mere seconds. His impressive debut lasted only a few seconds more. Immediately following the match, Sting destroyed RVD, and thus negating his big debut. Since then, he had a decent run with TNA, but one littered with misuse. He was stripped of the World Title in August due to storyline injuries, only to return after a few weeks, relegated to midcard feuds, where he spent for pretty much the remainder of his run. Currently, he is employed by TNA, but is off television entirely. That's a the worst way to use one of your most popular talents.
    1. Rob Van Dam can make a ton more money in WWE
    WWE pays their in-ring talent more then TNA. Much more. While I am completely unaware of his financial standing, money talks. RVD won't be able to make anywhere near that much money in a few years once he is done with wrestling entirely, so get as much as possible before getting out for good.

    1. Plying his trade on the highest level will bring more name-recognition to RVD.
    This is an interesting one. Normally I would say that such a thing isn't relevant for a guy with Van Dams apparent motivation and lifestyle. But there's a very interesting little development to make his name recognition more important now...


    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/reedyourmind/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-medical-kush-beach-club
    http://robvandam.com/archives/687
    http://heymanhustle.com/articles/news/23-news/167629-rob-van-dam


    Rob Van Dam is an executive producer of this feature length documentary. Current WWE Superstar Rob Van Dam sounds better then TNA wrestler Rob Van Dam when it comes to getting attention.




    Rob Van Dam has had a formidable career in professional wrestling. At his current state of his career, he should jump back to the big-time in order to get one more run at the big time, big money, and big recognition.
     
    #4
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  5. GI Cake

    GI Cake Thank God For Sodamy.

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    Rob Van Dam was one of the most over wrestlers of his era. He was widely over in any promotion he was a part of. He was a ECW World Tag Team Championship with Sabu, twice. A ECW World Television Championship. and a Fifth Triple Crown Champion. In the WWE, he won almost every title you could put your hands on his most famous achievement was holding both the WWE Championship, and the ECW World Championship. He was the hottest thing in the WWE when he was at the top of his game. But his recent tenure in Impact has been less then exciting. And that is mainly on part of Rob Van Dam and not his booking.

    Because you see, Rob Van Dam is the epitome of a has been. He was an innovator, now he is an innovator that doesn't innovate. Rob Van Dam. Rob Van Dam used to care about trying to get over and give a entertaining show for the fans, but now he simply doesn't have the same energy and the drive to perform on such a large scale like the WWE. That is why he took a contract with TNA. Easier hours, much less travel, and the idea that he can make an impact by solely of his star power and not putting in the same effort he did when he was younger all appealed to Rob Van Dam.

    So how would Rob Van Dam making a return to the WWE help his career? How can anyone ask that when it is painfully obvious he lost that passion he had for wrestling? If Rob Van Dam made a return to the WWE, he would be nothing but a shell of the man he was in 2002. It wouldn't be fair to Rob Van Dam, and it wouldn't be fair to guys in the WWE like Zack Ryder, Daniel Bryan, Dolph Ziggler and Santino if Rob Van Dam just barged into the WWE Locker room and got the push they have been working so hard for while RVD obviously doesn't share the same drive.

    And then what happens when RVD gets that push back in the WWE? And he doesn't give the same performances he did in his younger days? The crowd would backfire on him. RVD would simply fall into the same role he did in TNA. A nostalgia act that would show the same laziness and effortless wrestling that caused him to get off T.V in the first place. Rob Van Dam isn't on Impact Wrestling for months. And rightfully so, Impact has been trying to push their younger talent and put the ex-WWE guys to the wayside. WWE Roster is currently packed to the brim with talent. Cena, Rock, Brock, Santino, Ziggler, Ryder, Miz, Sheamus, Orton, and Bryan. Currently Impact wrestlings top stars are Roode, Sting, Storm, AA, and Calves. If RVD can't find a spot in the Impact time slot, what hope would RVD have when WWE is packed with so much more talent? With all these taken into account, a WWE return for RVD would only spell disaster for the has been.
     
    #5
  6. Stormtrooper

    Stormtrooper Championship Contender

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    So I'm glad we're in agreement that RVD was one of the most popular wrestlers in the past 20 years, as well as one of the better wrestlers. And all of your bolded was's are correct too, because obviously we're talking about his past accomplishments.

    So RVD was the one to sabotage his debut by getting himself assaulted? RVD was the one stuck in the midcard? RVD was the one thrown into a stupid ECW (I mean “The old promotion from Philadelphia”) revival? I'd hardly say RVD screwed up, as he still put on entertaining matches in TNA. He can't help stupid booking decisions.

    Rob Van Dam has done so much innovation over his career that he can live off of his prior innovations (now not considered innovations since he's done them forever) and have a complete offense.

    That's funny. I didn't know that you are Rob Van Dam. I thought you were Pancake.

    Never once have I heard a single instance where RVD has said that he doesn't have the same energy and drive to perform on the big stage of WWE. In fact, I recall him being burned out, and wanting a break, not to mention his wife having cancer. He had an open invitation to return to WWE, and made 2 surprise appearances (RAW XV and the 2010 Royal Rumble), before deciding to sign with TNA. That door would still be open, because WWE knows that RVD is popular.

    1. I'd like to see any evidence of RVD preferring something that meant he didn't have to put in any effort. I have never seen any evidence of such a statement, and as such will treat it as a personal bias that doesn't warrant response until proven otherwise.
    2. Did TNA offer less travel and an easier schedule? Maybe. But WWE can still offer a non-full-time schedule that can suit RVD. While it would be slightly more travel then TNA, it would be better then when he left WWE.

    1. More Money
    2. More prestige/name recognition
    3. More opportunities out of the ring (Movies?)
    I'd hardly say he lost his passion for wrestling. If he did, he would leave TNA wrestling entirely and focus on his out-of-wrestling endeavors.

    Well he's 10 years older now in 2012 then he was in 2002, so he wouldn't be as good as he was then, of course. Neither is anyone else of his stature/generation. But he can still get the job done.

    RVD can come in and be the guy to help get everyone else over. He doesn't have to come in and take their spot. Just by wrestling RVD, Bryan, Ziggler, and everyone else will get elevated. And by beating RVD (which could very well happen) those guys get even more over. Ziggler going over RVD is better for WWE then Ziggler going over Ryder, who is also trying to get over.

    Of course this doesn't matter, because the topic at hand asks if the move is good for RVD, not for WWE. It will help WWE, but that's irrelevant.

    That's not gonna happen. This guy here has proved that during the past 14 months:
    [​IMG]
    Now before you get on me for comparing the 2, the situation is the same. Popular star comes back after prolonged WWE absence. Star is not nearly as good as he once was, yet the crowd still loves him.

    I highly doubt that. RVD would come in as a returning legend, and feud with the up-and-coming top stars, helping them get over without hurting the other guys on the roster.

    No they aren't. You said so yourself.
    Roode: 35
    Sting: 53
    Storm: 34
    AA (I assume this means Austin Aries): 33
    Calves (I assume this means Bubba Ray Dudley): 40, and a lesser star then RVD ever was.
    Hogan (you forgot him): 58

    RVD is the same age as Bubba Ray Dudley, younger then Sting/Hogan, and older then Roode/Storm/Aries, although they are far from spring chickens.

    And RVD fits right in there as the top midcard veteran. He can easily come in and feud with (and get over) Ziggler, Bryan, Barrett (you forgot him), and Miz.

    WWE has 6 hours of original in-ring entertainment every week (4 with primary talent, 2 with secondary). Impact has 2 (do they still run that Xplosion show doesn't air anywhere? If so, then 3, but only 2 with primary talent). As such, WWE can successfully have a roster more then twice the size. RVD will fit easily.

    Not that this matters, since the topic at hand is whether jumping to WWE is good for RVD, not for WWE.


    Not at all. He'd come in and at least be a great complimentary piece. Worst case scenario, he is used in a similar fashion he is now (extremely unlikely), but making tons more money, and getting more outside endeavors, and more name-recognition.
     
    #6
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  7. GI Cake

    GI Cake Thank God For Sodamy.

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    And how much of it will be pissed away if he doesn't live up to his expectations when goes back onto a bigger stage that is the WWE? Has and was's only gets you so far before the fans will give up on you.


    He can however perform and be more entertaining than he was after losing his world title. Can you name a single feud that was entertaining after RVD returned to TNA? Even his feud between Anderson and Jeff Hardy became borderline annoying because Rob Van Dam couldn't bring the goods like he used to.

    Notice how much better Impact Wrestling has been since RVD has been off the air? Impact doesn't need RVD. So how on earth could RVD make a positive impact and renew his career in a promotion that is packed with main-event talent. And if RVD goes back to the WWE and becomes Mid-Carder, he would be back to square one. Nothing would change for him other than working a much harder Schedule and traveling all over the world. Neither of which, RVD has mentioned many times he does not wish to do.


    And continue doing the same, 1-2 step he did in Impact. The same 1-2 step that has him off of T.V for months. You can only do the same, innovative moves for so long before boring the fans. And when you take that away from Rob Van Dam, he is just another High-flyer with a bad haircut.



    So when he worked for an easier promotion with less traveling and less time working, and still are unable to bring the same charisma and fire he did in his prime. That means his return to the WWE would go off with a bang?

    I would take a 1998-2002 RVD any day of the week. But we have the 2011-2012 RVD. The same RVD that hasn't had an entertaining match in months.


    The WWE knows he is popular the same way Mick Foley is popular, RVD is the popular the same way Booker T is popular. Everyone will always remember Booker T and his career in WCW. And his stint as King Booker but when push comes to shove, Booker T will be nothing like he was and will stay calling the matches for Friday Night Smackdown. RVD is not a play-by-play commentator, he is a wrestler. A wrestler that can't wrestle and entertain the way he used to. Once again, this will only spell disaster for Rob Van Dam.


    Here you go.

    In this article, it claims that RVD has been upset with how he was being booked in TNA. You can't honestly say that RVD's career in TNA has been anywhere near the levels of his old work. RVD did nothing to make the fans want to cheer him other than his name being Rob Van Dam. And when push comes to shove and he needs to earn his spot in the Main-Event, he fades off and gets written off of T.V to Gunner of all people.




    Yeah, TNA did. (Link)

    TNA got one year out of their signing of Rob Van Dam. One year where the pinnacle of his career was when his title was stripped of him. After that, he did nothing anywhere near memorable after that. Now, two years later, and RVD has fallen to the way-side in TNA.

    Now if he signed with the WWE. You are going to get the same RVD that gets upset over his booking. The same RVD that will complain about the travel and his schedule, regardless on how easy they make it for him.

    I am sure at this stage of his career, money is the least of his concerns. And if it is. I doubt Vince would simply hand it to him to show up once or twice a year.

    What else would RVD need to do for more prestige and name recognition? RVD knows that, that is the only thing he has left as a wrestler, that is why TNA signed RVD in the first place, because he was a big name they could bring in to breath life into their roster. But RVD can't do that in the WWE if he resigns. He would be good for nostalgia, but after the nostalgia effect fades, RVD would have to relay on his wrestling to get him over. And since he has lost the spring in his step, he can't wrestle anywhere as near as good as he used to.


    RVD has had plenty of opportunities outside of the WWE to be in movies. And with his TNA work schedule, he would have plenty of more time for a movie career and outside interest. Just because he would come back to the WWE doesn't mean every talent agent would be clamoring over RVD.



    Or you know, get written off of T.V since the start of 2012 and has provided nothing for professional wrestling, since.



    If he could still get the job done, then why is he not on T.V anymore? Surely if RVD still had something to give for Impact Wrestling, he would be there week in and week out than the usual crap we got when he was on T.V. Bully Ray is just as old as RVD. But yet he is one of the top heels in Impact Wrestling. Sting is far older but still provides much more for Impact than RVD can. Why is RVD the odd man out? Because Sting and Bully Ray share a huge passion for Impact wrestling, something RVD obviously doesn't have.



    So RVD comes back to be the stepping stone for the younger guys who have been working harder than RVD this past year? Win or lose, this is something that RVD has been upset with in his booking for TNA. If RVD signs back to have Ziggler, and Bryan job to him, it proves nothing for him and makes Ziggler and Bryan look bad due to losing to a has been. And if RVD comes back and loses to Bryan and Ziggler, it deflates any value he had returning to the WWE. It is a lose/lose for RVD and the WWE if he were resigned.



    Then you get a pissed off RVD who won't show up to work because he was made to job to Mid-Card guys.


    It is relevant, if WWE can't get any gain from Rob Van Dam, how would that help Rob Van Dam in the long run or benefit him in any manner? His return could bury everything the WWE has been doing for years with younger talent.


    Rock and RVD are two completely different beings in Professional Wrestling. RVD was over with the fans because he used to put on amazing matches. The Rock was insanely over because he could make the crowd putty in his hands with his eyebrow alone. His mic-work and his story-telling made him the legend he is today. People still love the Rock, Rock can still work the crowd.

    RVD never had that ability to take out the mic and make the fans believe every word he said. He got over by jumping off the top of ladders and side kicking people in the face. That can only keep you over for so long until younger wrestlers with better ability become more over than you.


    When Rock announced his match against Cena for Wrestlemania 28. That killed any momentum for other Superstars in the back. That deflated the morale that if you worked hard enough, you can be in the main-event of Wrestlemania.

    But Rob Van Dam doesn't have the drawing power of The Rock. He can't come in and put the fans over for an up and coming star. What happened to A.J Styles after losing the world title to Rob Van Dam? He is still trying to recover his steps and get back to the Main-Event. RVD feuded with Anderson, and look where that got him, he got written off of T.V because creative had no ideas what to do with Anderson Even look at Gunner, after he kayfabe took RVD out of T.V with a injury, he has nothing going for him other than beating up Garrett Bischoff every week.


    And all of them share one thing in common. They work harder than RVD to reflect a positive light on their careers. Sting and Hogan fight off their age because they love Professional Wrestling. James Storm and Bobby Roode are in the main-event because they love Professional Wrestling. Bully Ray has been climbing the ranks in Impact because he loves Professional Wrestling. And Austin Aries is the X-Division champ because guess what? He loves Professional Wrestling.

    If RVD had a shed of his past self, he would find a way to fit into the picture of Impact Wrestling. But he can't, so how would he benefit to moving to WWE where their is more talent in the Main-event, and more talent trying to break into the main-event. Is beyond me.



    The same way Booker T got Cody Rhodes over, right? :lmao:



    And WWE has much more talent than Impact has, and is still unable to give all their guys enough time on their shows. Just because WWE has a larger time-frame doesn't mean it doesn't struggle with getting its talent on the air every week. Just because you want to play in the adults pool doesn't mean the other swimmers will give you the same berth you did in the kiddie pool.


    You are acting like this doesn't matter. But it does. If RVD is doing something that is hurting the WWE, than it can't possibly be bettering RVD. Name a situation where a Superstar was hurting the WWE and benefiting from it?


    The same situation he absolutely hates now. The same situation he said is the reason why he wants to jump to the WWE if the price is right. Why would Rob Van Dam sign with another company for the same song and dance, but have to work much harder for it? His return to the WWE would be a mess for the Rob Van Dam and anyone involved, plain and simple.
     
    #7
  8. Stormtrooper

    Stormtrooper Championship Contender

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    None of it will be pissed away. Ric Flair has not pissed away his legacy, and he has been waaaaaaaaaaaay more pathetic then RVD would be.

    No, I can't name a single feud with RVD. Hence why TNA screwed the pooch with him. They brought him in and never did anything meaningful with him. He was always a secondary performer in a feud, and was left of TV a few times for no reason.

    Impacts been good? Last I heard, they were having Eric Bischoffs kid be a Main Eventer on Impact, and they're forcing Hogan down our throats, while Sting (who was in a heated, personal feud with Hogan less then a year ago) is begging him to control the company.

    No one said he'd be working a full schedule.


    RVD is far, far, far from a boring wrestler. He may be resting on his laurels a bit in TNA, where they have treated him like garbage for the past 2 years, but he's far from boring. His high-flying style is rather exciting.

    And in WWE, where few guys are flying high, his high flying will be over more then it is in TNA, where they have a bunch of guys that can do that.

    Is the travel more? Yes. but I'd hardly call TNA easier. It's not easy to work for people that don't know what they're doing, and regularly mistreating and misusing you.

    He hasn't had a match in months. They had him storyline-injured by Gunner back in January.

    Both of which are in WWE, and both of which are STILL hugely over, getting big-time pops. Them being in WWE is beneficial to them.
    Of course people will remember these guys for the prime of their career. It's illogical to expect them NOT to be remembered for their best. Ric Flair isn't remembered for his 2002-2008 run in WWE, but for his run in NWA/WWF/WCW.

    And Booker T has wrestled 6 TV matches since he returned in January 2011, including a match at WrestleMania XXVIII.

    Booker T can't wrestle the way he used to. He had 6 TV matches, all of which he was more then capable in. RVD can EASILY do the same thing.


    Yes, when he originally left WWE, he was tired of the schedule. In 2007. It's now 2012, 5 years later. He has tried the competition, and he clearly doesn't like TNA, as your article states, he would likely consider joining WWE again.

    And your last sentence here further proves my point. When RVD needs to get some heat back with the fans, they have him written off by a generic bland guy like Gunner.


    Yeah, of course they offered him a lighter schedule. So he took the lighter schedule with a fairly big paycheck. Now, WWE would likely offer a light (by their standards) schedule, AND make tons more in WWE.

    Thanks for proving my point. TNA cut the legs out of RVD, killing his heat with the fans.

    Why would you get the same RVD, when he would be used more appropriately, and working a lesser schedule. A 40 year old RVD is hardly working a full schedule. At MOST he'd do the TVs and PPVs. Maybe not all the TVs/PPVs.

    None of us are aware of RVDs financial status. However, as I previously said, he is the executive producer of a documentary, and as my prior links showed they are in need of funding for it. If RVD gets a high-paying job, he can allocate more funds towards that venture.


    Just by being a CURRENT WWE Superstar, RVD gains tremendously. He will be on TV often. Thus, he'd be in the public eye, gaining name recognition. Right now, he's doing nothing, and he's out of the public eye, which doesn't help when you're trying to do publicly fund and release a movie. Being current makes him relevant.

    RVDs IMDB page
    RVD has done 1 made for DVD movie called Wrong Side of Town since he left WWE, and was a voice actor in 1 Video game. Clearly no one is knocking on his door for acting. But there is one massive door that would be more then wide open for him, IF he chose to return to WWE. That door? WWE Films? And before you say anything about them being shitty, well, are they any better then Wrong Side of Town? That was atrocious.

    Again, more reason for him jumping. He would be used.

    So you're arguing that TNA is a smart company that makes good booking decisions.

    First of all, Bully Ray and Sting are in way different situations then RVD. Bully Ray has been with the company for 4 years longer then RVD, and has a much more TNA-friendly contract then RVD, who is working a part time schedule with a date limit. Sting is in a higher standard, and again was with the company for much longer, and very valuable in the escalation of the company to where they are today.

    RVD is the odd man out because he came in in 2010 as a part timer with a date limit. He was working too many dates, so they strip him of the title and write him off TV at the height of his popularity (killing his heat).

    RVD has complained about his BOOKING, not winning or losing. Your link earlier said as much. In WWE, he would be booked the way he should be, as a legend that comes in for a feud, ultimately giving his opponent a rub while not looking like shit. TNA made him look like shit multiple times.


    RVD has (to the best of my and everyones knowledge) NEVER no-showed an event like you're saying he would. His contract expired in WWE, he worked sporadic indy shows, signed with TNA, and has never no-showed TNA. Besides, WWE wouldn't have him job to midcard guys. He'd feud with them, and help get them over, much like Booker T did with Cody Rhodes.

    1. Because WWE CAN gain tremendously from RVD for the reasons I've already stated numerous times.
    2. Because RVD would still be making more money, would still be in the public eye. And he'd be booked better.
    3. While we can argue for days on end that it would derail everything they're doing with younger talent (if that's the case, Rock/Cena, Lesnar, etc have done the same thing), again that's irrelevant to this discussion. D-Man stated that he wants us to talk about how RVD would benefit. WWE not benefiting is of no mind.

    But in the situation you stated earlier, it's exactly the same situation. Rock came back in February 2011, was a shell of his former self, and everyone loved him still. RVD can come in, be as good as 2012 RVD is, and still be over.

    His promos prior to WWE were pretty good actually. In WWE he became a stereotypical laid-back stoner-type. And instead of RVD talking everyone to death every week like certain other old guys, he'd be wrestling. And wrestling fairly well.

    Really? I don't remember anyone saying anything about that. And anyone with half a brain wouldn't mind that, since Rock vs. Cena is the biggest match in WM history. Again, is there any proof of that, or are you just spouting off random stuff to prove your point?

    If they really did complain, too damn bad.
    WrestleMania 28 Highest Grossing Event in WWE History

    WWE is in the business of making money. If the new guys aren't bringing in as much money, and the old guys can come in and bring more, then the old guys will be working.

    So right there, you just cited 3 examples of TNA not knowing how to keep all their upper-level talent active. That's a perfect example of why RVD is being misused, and as such should make the jump to WWE.

    When has Rob Van Dam said anything to the contrary?

    He's tried to fit it into the picture of Impact Wrestling. They keep writing him off TV and making him look like shit. Jumping to WWE will make him an upper-midcard veteran, putting over the young guys all the while still looking like a credible threat.


    Yeah, when Cody was done with Booker T, he was in a better place then he was before he started with him. After that feud, Cody is ready for a feud with a Main Event face. I'd say Booker got him over damn well.

    Actually, they get all their top guys on TV every week. every week on RAW you see Cena/Punk/Ziggler/Miz/Santino/Ryder (even if he looks bad)/Del Rio/Kofi all are on (when healthy). The lower guys aren't on TV as much, just like the lower guys on TNA aren't on as much. RVD jumps into that same pool as the RAW guys very easily, much like Jericho is on all the when he's with WWE.


    Hulk Hogan going over Shawn Michaels without returning the favor. Hulk Hogan going over Randy Orton without returning the favor. Triple H dominating RAW from 2003-2005 while burying guys like Booker T, RVD, Kane, etc. I can go on.

    RVD is frustrated with how he's being booked. And why shouldn't he? He is constantly made to look bad. Not by losing, but by being written off TV whenever they feel like, and by killing his heat as soon as he gets any. And by being booked in lower-card stuff like the ECW leftovers stable that couldn't use the name ECW.

    And even if WWE used him the same way TNA is (ie being written of TV), he'd still be in better shape, because he'd have a much higher guarantee then he has in TNA, since WWE pays better.
     
    #8
  9. GI Cake

    GI Cake Thank God For Sodamy.

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    But he still getting booked on T.V. Impact can find a way to put Ric Flair on T.V, besides the fact Flair gives them every reason not to. Why can't RVD find work and Flair can?


    Or you know, RVD hasn't had entertaining feud since he debuted. That is saying something considering RVD back in his WWE tenure had memorable feuds with just about anybody. Back when he was younger. But now he is older, and lazier, he doesn't give the same effort that made RVD the star he was.


    He was the World Champion at one point, and the face of the business. TNA even made a episode called "The Whole F'in Show" in RVD's name sake. TNA banked hard on RVD to pull through, and time and time again failed to bring the goods.

    Now imagine having the same RVD come back to the WWE. If the WWE resign RVD for what he was and expect him to bring in money they will surely be disappointed in what they get. All this hype on a guy that doesn't share the same feelings will cause backlash to not only the WWE, and Rob Van Dam.

    Think back to Wrestlemania, Brock Lesnar against Goldberg. This match was hyped to no end. The fans, and Vince expected them to steal the show. But look what happened when a star doesn't have the drive to perform up to the standards they expect him to have. It was piss poor, Stone Cold Steve Austin had to come in and save the match.

    Oh wait a minute, I thought you said bringing in a big name would be good for business? Then why is Hogan a bad thing for Impact Wrestling? Why is Sting bad for Impact?


    He would be working a much longer schedule than he did in Impact Wrestling.



    Fixed that for you. When RVD was being pushed to moon on his debut to win the world title, did he have one match that excited the fans? Did he have a single feud or moment that excited the fans other than the fact it was RVD?

    If you can't bring the goods, you don't get booked. Ask Mr.Anderson.



    Isn't TNA home to the X-Division? Surely in that kind of environment and audience, he would have stayed over in TNA. But he didn't, because he is not the same man he used to be. How would that be any different in the WWE?


    Rob Van Dam and Jeff Hardy signed with TNA for the exact reason that it was easier than the WWE. These are two men that were on good terms with WWE when they left.


    Jim Ross has been as loyal to the WWE as they come. Yet he is constantly at the whipping pole for Vince and any segment they have for him. Jim Ross is willing to get lit on fire if Vince wanted it to happen. Yet you don't see him jumping ship when things got tough. If RVD is upset with how TNA is booking him, he should have enough leverage to have better booking.


    Because Impact can find more use for Gunner than they can for RVD. that is pretty sad considering that Impact can find room on the card for average angry heel #2 then they can for someone like RVD. If RVD can prove he can be entertaining, then I am sure he would. But he simply is not as good as he used to be.

    If Gunner and Garrett B. can find room on the card then how does he expect to make it onto the WWE card?


    That is because they can find ways to use Booker T and Mick Foley that doesn't involve them wrestling full time. They honestly do not need to wrestle full time to be over. RVD needs to wrestle to stay over, he needs to put on great matches to be over. Which is something he is no longer able to do. If RVD was a commentator on Smackdown he would be as annoying as Michael Cole, and no one would care for him if he was used in the same sense as Mick Foley.

    But that is why RVD is over. Because of his great matches, because of his great feuds. Because he was able to wrestle with anybody and look like gold. But his age slowed him down, he can't perform at the same level he used to. No one cared for a RVD promo, they simply wanted to see RVD kick the taste of The Rocks mouth. No one bothered with what RVD had to say about Cena. They just wanted to see him win the world title.

    You can't honestly have a 40+ high-flyer come into the WWE and beat guys like CM Punk, Bryan, Sheamus, or Del Rio. Even more the case when that 40+ wrestler can't wrestle at the same level he used to.


    RVD can't keep his fans if he doesn't perform. That is all he has had. You complain about RVD not being booked correctly but if he wrestles 6 matches a year in the WWE it would be better than his stint in TNA? That makes no sense.


    But how would that benefit Rob Van Dam? I wouldn't be surprised if RVD made a return to the WWE and have his career there end up the same it did in TNA. Push him because of his name and his past with the WWE, then when the fans could care less for him, have him written off time and time again.

    Who still manages to find a spot on the card. Gunner isn't doing anything now, couldn't RVD come back and feud with him? Or would that be poor booking and him being misused?



    Money can only do so much before RVD would realize how much work he would have to do in order to get that paycheck.

    This is a hypothetical. Let's say TNA contract with RVD is 3 years for $1 million dollars a year. That contract included a world title and a tenure in the Main-Event. And he got to stay at home in Orlando with his wife and kids. And then lets say the WWE offers him a 3 year contract worth $5 million dollars a year. But that includes traveling with the shows, WWE guest appearance's, and they try to fit him somehow in the Main-Event. If I was a 40+ Stoner, who has already done everything their is to do in the WWE, I would take the easier, 1 million dollar contract any day of the week.


    When RVD came back he was instantly plugged back into the Main-Event, why wasn't he able to keep himself over with the fans? Was it for the fact he couldn't keep the crowd on his side, or TNA doesn't know how to book RVD?


    How do you use RVD more appropriately to where it not only pleases RVD, creative, and more importantly the fans? You can't honestly expect the fans to allow him to compete half the time of guys like Punk and Sheamus and be in contention for their title. That would be like giving David Arquette the world title. Just simply because he was David Arquette. That hurt not only Arquette's rep, but WCW as a whole.


    Or RVD would be to busy with his film career or with Professional wrestling to be able to perform at a high level. RVD left the WWE in 2007 because he was unable to perform with having his wife diagnosed with Cancer. Now that is no insult to RVD by any means, but that is clear evidence RVD knows he can't work on the same level he did in the WWE if he has other things on his mine.



    That didn't stop Zack Ryder from getting into the public eye. Zack Ryder did everything he could short of holding Vince at gunpoint to put him on T.V. Ryder made himself relevant. Ryder put himself in the public eye. Surely a legend like RVD can do the same? RVD can't because he doesn't have the same drive he used to have. Hell, everyone on Impact have been climbing over each other to get over in TNA. Hell, some made complete changes in their life to keep their spot. RVD hasn't even changed his gimmick or his tights. How would putting him in the WWE change that? Where their is much more talent wanting to get much higher on the card. RVD can only do his little chant oh so many times before people will get bored with him.


    Did you see The Marine 2 Starring Ted Dibaise? Look how many doors that opened for him since he split with Legacy. If his last name wasn't Dibaise, he wouldn't have a job with the WWE. And Marine 2 didn't open any doors for him , that's for sure.


    The product has been overall better, regardless of RVD. So that says something.

    Bully Ray and RVD were exactly in the same situation. They were both signed because they were big names, for different reasons. Once the Dudley Boyz got stale, they split. And Bully Ray went on to completely remake himself to become one of the best heels TNA can ask for. When RVD got stale, he just continued being RVD. The Bully Ray/RVD comparison can speak miles on how much energy RVD has lost for the business in his tenure with TNA.

    And then booked TNA booked him back into the Main-Event. But no one could honestly care about him at that point. And rightfully so, RVD was complete shit when he came back.


    Right, TNA went up to RVD and said to him. "Hey RVD, go out there, and look like a lazy pile of trash for 5 minutes before hitting your Frog Splash. Can you do that for us?" TNA booked Somoa Joe as a jobber for the Bound For Glory Tournament, but somehow managed to get back onto the card and be booked as a Tag Team Champion.



    And then do what for the rest of his contract. Sit around and get paid while guys like Booker T and Mick Foley still travel with the WWE daily? That wouldn't be fair to ask of Vince or the fans to only have RVD show up to wrestle once in a blue moon. How exactly would that benefit him?


    You say I go off-topic, yet you make this statement? And the WWE would get nothing but the laziest part-timer in the business today.

    Cue Zack Ryder who made less money and was a no body. Yet worked harder to get better booking. Which benefited the WWE in the long run. How would giving a spot to RVD that easily benefit him when it is painfully obvious he would do nothing to keep it.

    RVD won't benefit from anything if he doesn't put his mind to it and wrestle like he used to in his days in ECW and WWE. TNA gave him everything he asked for, and couldn't perform as well as they hoped, which is why he is being written off.


    No he can't. RVD doesn't have anywhere near the Charisma the Rock has. The n again no one does, only the Rock can come back and be only as half as good as he used to be, and be loved by the fans. RVD needs to be at the top of his game in order to get over. If he isn't he is about as over as Evan Bourne or Gunner.


    And in TNA he was still that same, laid-back stoner-type. And he didn't get the mic as much because that isn't his forte, his forte is wrestling. If he can't wrestle as well as he used to, he will be the has been trying to reclaim old glory.


    Do you remember a thing CM Punk said in his shoot or did that completely pass you? Punk was on the verge of leaving the WWE because part-timers like Rock took what could have been his Main-Event spot in Wrestlemania.

    Rock can bring in money because he is famous without the WWE. RVD is famous because of the WWE. You can't expect RVD to come back and half ass it on a part-time contract and bring in money like The Rock.


    You forgot the key part that their heat ended after feuding with RVD. Then again, you can't blame them after feuding with someone who doesn't want to be there as badly as they do.


    Let his work ethic and his stint in TNA speak for itself. If RVD is upset with the way they use him on a part time contract in a easy company like TNA. Their is no way in hell will Rob Van Dam suddenly improve and be the same guy he was 10 years ago.


    If that is his attempt at trying, it is awful.


    He is part-time what do you expect? I doubt TNA would just let RVD walk off from T.V for a couple weeks after beating up guys under him like Gunner.


    Right, the same way Kevin Nash made a return the WWE and instantly got into a feud with main-eventers like CM Punk and Triple H. But constantly got in his own way and fell to the way-side. Just because you get a spot doesn't mean you can keep it without earning it every week.


    Except Jericho has proven he is still the same guy that left the WWE a few years ago. He is still one of the best damn Superstars on the roster. You can compare Jericho's return to the WWE to Rob Van Dam's TNA career and Jericho would blow it out of the water every single time.



    If he is upset with being written off of T.V at will, he should demand he wants to work more than part time. That would be like saying I am upset with Target because they won't give me more than 40 hours a week when I signed up for Part time.


    But what does that do for RVD complain about after the fans give him the silent treatment after another lame, part time match? No one is disputing RVD would be better off money wise for the WWE, but his reputation is already being ruined in his career with TNA because he is part time. Being part time in the WWE would lead to being another Kevin Nash. Which is a fate worse than being written off of Impact Wrestling.
     
    #9
  10. Stormtrooper

    Stormtrooper Championship Contender

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    1. Because TNA is stupid
    2. Because Ric Flair is a MUCH bigger legend then RVD
    3. Ric Flair hasn't been on TV.



    RVD hasn't had a CHANCE to have an entertaining feud.

    They named the show “The Whole F'n Show” because it was a good name, and it was one of the few times RVD was actually in a Main Event. The match (RVD vs. Abyss in a “Janice on a pole” match) was an overbooked disaster. You can't blame RVD for an overbooked disaster, as he isn't a Booker.


    And when he was World Champion, he was stripped of the title and taken off TV, and put in a stable with the likes of Raven, Tommy Dreamer, Simon Diamond, Al Snow, and D-Von Dudley. The World Champion of a promotion being forced to work with losers like them kills any heat he had.


    TNA ruined RVD as World Champion the only time he had the belt.


    WWE doesn't sign people based on what they were in the past, they sign people based on what the CAN be. RVD CAN be a good asset for them


    Again, not that any of this matters.


    Believe me, I remember that match. I was in the building for it.


    It was 2 guys with styles that didn't mesh, shitty attitudes, and both men were leaving the company. That's a recipe for disaster, and they got a disaster.


    But that has virtually nothing to do with RVD.

    Bringing in a big name is good for business when they are used properly. You don't have them jumping from heel to face every month and feuding then being friends then feuding then being friends. They both COULD be good for Impact, if they are used properly. Have sting feud with a top heel, or have a face vs. face feud with a top face. Don't have him work with Hulk Hogan. Hogan should do the same, if he can wrestle. If he can't, then he should be a face authority figure, but they screwed that up by making him heel.


    WWE has proven that bringing in big names is good for Business. The Rock came in and WrestleMania XXVIII was the most successful event in WWE history.

    One day a week, with 2 days about one week a month. With TNA, he works almost the same schedule. 2 days in a row every couple weeks, or 3 days (Sunday PPV, Monday/Tuesday tapings). Sometimes, he could have to work 2 matches a day (they take 3 shows in 2 days, it's possible that he would work a match in all 3 shows).


    And again, he'd be working (he isn't in TNA), he'd be getting paid MUCH more, he'd be treated better, and he'd have a higher name recognition.

    His title defenses included an old man in Sting, an overbooked disaster in AJ Styles, and a Fatal 4-way.


    RVD vs. Sting doesn't excite anyone, it's a really old guy and an old guy. RVD/Styles should excite people, but the match never had a chance to deliver. A Fatal 4-Way is nothing, then they wrote him off TV (reports were that he was written off TV because he was working too many dates, and was almost done with his contract; thus it was a cost-cutting move).
    Here are links to reviews of the 3 PPV title defenses.
    http://pwtorch.com/artman2/publish/tnappvs/article_41360.shtml
    http://pwtorch.com/artman2/publish/tnappvs/article_41923.shtml
    http://pwtorch.com/artman2/publish/tnappvs/article_42439.shtml


    An overbooked match with Styles (that was excellent in the moments of non-overbooked-ness), a Sting match, and a 4-way.


    They didn't get booked because creative didn't have anything for them. It wasn't their fault creative is stupid and they paid way too many people.


    Because WWE isn't home to the X-Division. RVD will fly higher then most everyone in WWE. In TNA, there are many people that have a similar offense to RVD. In WWE, no one is similar.

    And as such it would be extremely easy for RVD to jump back to WWE, since he left on such good terms.

    Is Rob Van Dam Jim Ross? No.


    And while Jim Ross the character been mistreated numerous times on WWE TV, he's still been employed, and well compensated.

    And RVD would have leverage to have better booking. It's called jumping back to a place where they don't book their superstars in stupid fashion. That place is the WWE.

    Or it's because TNA is stupid, and chooses Gunner.
    Or it's because they don't want to pay RVD by having him work too many dates.
    Because WWE isn't TNA. WWE wouldn't put guys not worthy of being on TV over guys like RVD, who bring stuff to the table.


    And RVD can do that pretty damn easily. You're acting like RVD can't cut a promo. He can.
    [youtube]DV8s4Rj-CKU[/youtube]


    Michael Cole was insanely over for a while in WWE. I mean it was as a heel, but still, bad comparison, Michael Cole did his job well.


    He doesn't need to perform at the same level he used to in the ring. No one at his age will perform at the same level they did in their prime. He can still be an extremely popular wrestler, and a good one, too.

    You can have him come in and feud with guys like Del Rio, Bryan, Miz, Ziggler, Barrett, etc.


    Yeah, RVD can keep his fans. He can still perform at an acceptable level, and his fans are among the most loyal fans ever. They were ECW fans. ECW still gets chants.


    And “6 matches a year” in WWE is better then TNA because he would sign up for that, and thus he'd get what he signed up for. He signed up for better then what TNA is giving him, which is why he's not happy.

    The fans will never “care less for him.” His fans are loyal, and he can come back and get the current fans interested in him. His high flying style (even if he doesn't fly as high) leads to the fans liking him.

    He could. Basic booking logic would have him come back and get revenge on Gunner, before moving onto something else. Of course TNA would have him come back and lose to Gunner again, because they're not very smart.
    He'd be working. He's not working now. Hence, he'd be in a better place.

    1. Rob Van Dam does not live in Orlando. He resides in California, and is from Battle Creek Michigan. Never has RVD been from Orlando. I don't know why you'd say he'd be able to stay at home in Orlando with the wife and kids.
    2. Rob Van Dam does not have kids. He has a wife, who he lives with in California.
    3. I don't know what “WWE guest appearance's” are, but if you're talking about things like appearances on talk shows or something, RVD never did anything like that, and that stuff isn't usually a contractual obligation, meaning he wouldn't be doing them.
    4. Never have I been arguing that he should jump to WWE and be a full time guy, which is what your hypothetical is stating by saying he'd be traveling with the shows.
    Lets play a different hypothetical.
    1 Million a year for 3 years to be treated like shit in Orlando, or 1 Million for 1 year to make 50 appearances with WWE. That would be every PPV and most RAWs. A logical man would jump on the WWE deal.

    It was because TNA made him an also-rand and then pulled him off TV at his highest point.

    You just compared a wrestling legend to a celebrity. I can write ten pages on that, but for the sake of my sanity I will not. Lets just say this is the stupidest thing in the history of WrestleZone Forums, and that's saying something. I'm ashamed, Pancake, I thought you were better then that.


    How do you use RVD? As I said numerous times. Have him work with guys like Ziggler, Miz, Rhodes, Del Rio, Bryan, etc. Heels that don't have a Main Eventer to feud with. It gives them something to hold them over until they can feud with Cena/Punk/Sheamus/Orton/etc. Maybe give him a brief run with the title, or a PPV title match or something.


    1. His wife is cancer free first of all (thank god, Cancer sucks).
    2. He left WWE because he was burned out and tired of the schedule. His wife was diagnosed after he decided to leave.
    3. What does his wife formerly having cancer have to do with RVD not working on the same level as he did in WWE?
    1. More people watch WWE then TNA
    2. Why would you suggest that RVD needs to change his character to get over in TNA? RVD used his character to be insanely over, changing it would only hurt him.
    3. Zack Ryder has nothing in common with RVD. RVD is an established name, and insanely over. Zack Ryder was a no-name that got himself some popularity among WWE fans by using outside channels. He can't touch RVD with a ten foot pole in terms of popularity.
    So because Ted DiBiase worked with WWE, he has the same amount of acting experience as RVD. So imagine what it would do for RVD, who is ten million times more popular? He'd possibly get 3 movies.

    It says they finally fired Vince Russo.

    RVD never got stale. TNA just stopped using him.
    And again, Bully Ray has a full-time TNA contract. RVD is not a full-time guy. That speaks miles when it comes to getting on TV. They'd rather have guys on TV that are not going to have to cost them more.

    RVD was made to look like shit. When he came back, he couldn't do anything to look good. He put on good matches, but at that point his value was diminished thanks to the booking.

    Samoa Joe has a different contract.
    And RVD never looked like a lazy pile of trash.

    ummmm, Mick Foley doesn't travel with WWE daily. Nor does Booker T. Booker T does PPVs and Smackdown. MAYBE the occasional RAW. Mick Foley makes individual appearanes.. He can spend his entire contract feuding with and putting over the upper midcard heels.

    I replied to you going off-topic.

    Does it benefit Zack Ryder? Maybe not. Does that matter to the question at hand? Hell no. Although Zack Ryder seems to have lose whatever spot he got already, regardless of RVD.

    Again, he got written off the first time because of his contractual situation. And they don't have anything to do with him not because of his inability, since he doesn't have an inability. He can still perform in the ring, when giving a chance.

    Of course he isn't as charismatic as The Rock. But the situation is still the same, where a guy comes back, is a shell of his former self, and is still loved. Rock has been below average, put out shit promos, and everyone still loves him solely because he's The Rock.

    He can still wrestle good enough to be useful. And a change of scenery can do nothing but good for him, as TNA has been unable to figure out what to do with RVD.

    No, CM Punk was on the verge of leaving because he was tired of not being used. The Rock had nothing to do with it. As such, he's being used well now and The Rock is more involved then when he was planning on leaving.

    No, but you were discussing The Rock and people not liking him coming back.

    You're forgetting that TNA is beyond stupid, and did nothing to keep up the heat for those guys. Once the feud is done, RVD had nothing to do with them.

    He won't be the same guy he was 10 years ago. No one can expect that. But he can still be a useful piece.

    As is TNAs attempt at using RVD.

    You don't get it. RVD shouldn't be removed from TV constantly. He should feud with someone, then move on to feud with someone else. Instead, they have him get squashed by Gunner and written off TV for months.

    So now you're comparing RVD and Kevin Nash. They are in similar points in their career, but RVD is a WAY better worker. RVD at 70% is better in-ring then Nash at 100%

    If Jericho went to TNA, he'd be in the same place as RVD, misused and treated like crap. Except Jericho would tell TNA to go fuck themselves, while RVD is sticking out the remainder of his contract.

     
    #10
  11. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    This debate is officially closed. Good job by both participants.

    The judges can begin doing their thing.
     
    #11
  12. FunKay the Inevitable

    FunKay the Inevitable People Like Me, We Don't Play

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    Clarity: Blocks of text piss me off. I mean really, really annoy me. Spacing works a lot better and structure helps too. Stormtrooper's a master at it. Hell I often use the Stormtrooper style of number points myself. His point as his was easier to read due to lay-out/style. Still, annoying lay-outs.

    Punctuality: Stormtrooper was faster than Pancake and as such, wins the point. Also, Stormtrooper was the last to post and that was two days ago, Pancake could've/should've responded by that point in time.

    Informative: Stormtrooper had videos, links and even managed to work in an image of The Dwayne too.

    Persuasion: Pancake took a different angle than most of us expected and did something a little ballsy and I respect that. Stormtrooper however made better use of his posts and of his time in my opinion. He won the debate because his ideas were better and he hadn't limited himself to one argument, which I felt Pancake backed himself into a corner doing.

    Note: Pancake, you did okay, and you took a solid risk, it just didn't pay off for you though.

    FunKay Scores It: Stormtrooper: 5, Pancake: 0
     
    #12
  13. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    Clarity - Fuck both of your quote forts. Seriously. Judges get bored at reading line after line of text. Add something to each one, quote less, USE PICTURES DAMN IT!!! I had to get that off my chest.

    Trooper's occasional use of numbers and his open get this point.

    Point - Stormtrooper

    Punctuality - Pancake had the quickest draw during the actual debate, however, he did not post a conclusion, and should have within the time he had.

    Point - Stormtrooper

    Informative - There were a few solid links by Pancake, but overall I liked the presented information, with links, by Trooper.

    Point - Stormtrooper

    Persuasion - The one thing I was expecting from Pancake was to dig into Stormtrooper's links about the Medical Kush thingy. Not exactly sure how Vince would feel about the whole thing. Eh. I'm going with Stormtrooper. He had a better presentation and multiple points to make. Like FunK said, it seemed like Pancake kinda backed himself into a corner.

    Points - Stormtrooper

    CH David scores this Stormtrooper 5, Pancake 0.
     
    #13
  14. SavageTaker

    SavageTaker Everybody Has A Price!

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    Clarity of debate -I liked Stormy's lay out more in his opening post and I thought he was more clear throughout the debate so he'll get the point here.

    Punctuality - Same thing Funkay said.

    Informative - Both men brought in a good amount of information, but I felt that Stormy used the info he brought in much better. Stormy gets the point.

    Persuasion - I have to give this point to Stormy. He really shined here and always had strong rebuttals. Another thing that turned me away from siding with Pancake was that you would for example mention that RVD isn't the same one from 2002. Of course he isn't going to be the same. I think to expect for him to perform at the same level is ridiculous. Also, I don't think you did a good of proving how RVD didn't care anymore or wouldn't put the same effort into wrestling. Overall, it wasn't your best debate whatsoever and I think you knew that Pancake.

    Stormtrooper: 5 points, Pancake: 0 points.
     
    #14
  15. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    ...and it looks like we've got our second massacre of the season. Yikes.

    Therefore, Stormtrooper has clinched this bracket with a score of 15-0 and will move onto Winner's semi-final bracket #22 to face DirtyJose while Pancake drops down to Loser's bracket #19 to face the winner of Mr. Steve and Aweome_Miz.

    Congratulations to Stormtrooper.
     
    #15
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