Winner's Bracket Debate #21: Rohan -vs Killjoy

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2012' started by Dagger Dias, Apr 14, 2012.

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  1. Dagger Dias

    Dagger Dias Natural 20
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    Is Pro wrestling more dangerous than MMA?


    This is a third round, winner's bracket debate in the 2012 Wrestlezone Debater's League Tournament.

    Killjoy won the coin toss and will be the home debater. He's earned the right to choose EITHER which side of the debate he wants to argue OR who provides the opening statement. He can also defer this choice to his opponent. (The home debater has 24 hours to make this decision otherwise it is automatically deferred to his opponent.)

    After these choices are made, the first post of the debate must be posted within the first 24 hours otherwise it will affect the starter's Punctuality portion of the judging. Debaters have 24 hours to respond to their opponent's post and the faster the response, the better chance you have to score higher point totals.

    There is no maximum amount of posts for debaters in this round. Debaters can create unlimited replies until the allotted time of the debate runs out.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST where judging will immediately begin. Judging must be finished no later than Sunday at 11am EST.

    Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

    Good luck to the participants.
     
    #1
  2. ABMorales787

    ABMorales787 Lord And Master
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    I choose to debate that pro wrestling is more dangerous than MMA. I wish Rojan the best of luck, may the better bot win. :)
     
    #2
  3. ¡Roján!

    ¡Roján! Down with the trumpets.

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    I will let Killjoy go first. Good luck, you mopey sop. ;)
     
    #3
  4. ABMorales787

    ABMorales787 Lord And Master
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    The Dangerous World Of Professional Wrestling


    [​IMG]
    A picture's worth a thousand words.

    It's out there to capture the imagination of millions. When we watch it, we suspend our disbelief in order to watch the near impossible be done for our enjoyment. There's many depths to it that we could never understand even if we were to train. Pro wrestling is an artform where you put your body in the hands of another for the amusement of an attending crowd by mutilating yourself. Just look at it's synonym. Sports Entertainment. We use a sport for the sole purpose of entertaining. A professional wrestler works by staging fights in order to excite the crowds. It's what makes it stand out from regular sports. There is no real prestige to your win. Wins and losses come and go and carry little to no weight. Your athletic skills do not determine how good you are here. It's all done for amusement and show.

    With that picture painted, one looks to the other side of the scale. A pro wrestler, depending where they work, can work from 200 days a year, to just every weekend when booked. In contrast to the similar sport of MMA in which matches can be scheduled with good gaps of difference. If you're on UFC or Strikeforce you could go at the least a month without a fight. In WWE or TNA, you could wrestle 3 times in one night if you're booked that way. Exhaustion becomes something far more common in the world of pro wrestling.

    In MMA, it being a sport, by requirement you cannot compete unless you are fit. No sickness, no injuries, no health problems. You need to be cleared to compete. In pro wrestling however, working with surgery requiring injuries is commonplace even with strict health rules. Look at how many big names have done it. Edge, "Stone Cold" Steve Austin, Kurt Angle, Rey Mysterio, the list can go on. Out of those four, two are retired because of those injuries and a third has been out with one for nearly a year. It's Rey's second yearlong hiatus because of an injury he worked with.


    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    "God God! Good God! They killed him! As God as my witness, he is broken in half!" -JR, King Of The Ring '98

    In pro wrestling, cases of major onscreen injuries are fairly commonplace. After all, people are only human. Which is another reason why pro wrestling is more dangerous. In MMA, the idea is simple, to the point end effective. Knock the guy out. However, in pro wrestling, every move has it's machination, every match has it's spots and every storyline has it's driving point. Above I picture three very notable instances where things go horribly wrong due to simple miscalculations showcasing the dangerous nature of pro wrestling. At this point in time, Jesse Sorensen sits at home with a neckbrace following neck surgery facing nearly a year of rehab before he can head to the ring. The cause? A mistimed landing of a Moonsault. No big spot planned like with Mankinds infamous fall off the cell and no uncharacteristic jump off the top rope like with Sid. It was a case of the X Division simply being the X Division.

    For now I'll leave it at that. I'll wait for Rohan's reply. Next time, I'll be touching on how pro wrestling has driven people to insanity. Can you guess who I'm talking about and what the point of topic will be? Stay tuned.
     
    #4
    Blue Chipper likes this.
  5. ¡Roján!

    ¡Roján! Down with the trumpets.

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    I'm so sorry for being this late, but I've barely had a second to myself in the past week as, I'm hosting my exchange and I'm also having internet problems. Trust me, though, these aren't excuses, I'm still going to try my hardest here, even if I'm typing from my phone.

    MMA is more dangerous than professional wrestling.

    Back at the beginning of the Millenium, you'd have been ridiculed for saying this, and understandably so. In a time where wrestlers risked their lives on a daily basis for ECW, professional wrestling was a dangerous profession. Since then, things have change a lot on the MMA side of things and also on the professional wrestling side of things.

    Gone are the days of unprotected head shots and sledgehammer's to the head to cause concussions and gone are the days where blood was more common than a punch. Wrestling has cleaned up it's act.

    However, wrestling is still dangerous, but why is MMA much more dangerous?

    MMA is real. Wrestling is scripted, everyone knows. Moves are planned, and the competitor knows what's to come and how to react. Sure, botches happen that can cause serious injuries, but taking bumps in wrestling isn't a hard as being knocked out unexpectedly in an octagon, is it? Ask this guy:

    [YOUTUBE]kbVB81ffM6Y[/YOUTUBE]

    The main way for you to win is to knockout someone out. That alone is reason enough to support that MMA is far more dangerous than professional wrestling. These knockouts can cause concussions and long-term mental problems which are very serious.Hell, Sean Vasquez died after succumbing to injuries directly after a match. I think it's pretty obvious everyone would rather be pinned after receiving minimal damage from a 619 than being roundhouse kicked in the mout and breaking your jaw.

    Take Brock Lesnar's recent retirement from the octagon as the perfect example. Despite being the most respected UFC champ of all time, Lesnar gave it up in January due to his injuries he had sustained from MMA in diverculitis and numerous neck problems. And, what sport which takes a significantly less toll on your body did he jump straight back to? That's right, the WWE, professional wrestling's biggest company. Despite having to perform even more dates, Lesnar jumped to the WWE anyway, because WWE still paid him and plus, he wouldn't have to go through all the pain he was going through in MMA. Why? Because professional wrestling is less dangerous than MMA.

    And finally and most importantly,

    The main objective of MMA is to inflict pain. Ask any MMA fighter what's running through his head in a big fight and he'll answer that to brutalise his opponent in such a way that he can't even stand anymore. Ask a wrestler the same, and he'll claim that it's to steal the show and to try and work through a painless match for both competitors. There's not a simpler way to put it than that people want to hurt you in MMA and that people want to help you in professional wrestling.

    I await you response Killjoy, and I hope I'll be a little more punctual for the reply, amigo.
     
    #5
  6. ABMorales787

    ABMorales787 Lord And Master
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    Before I start the next chapter of my... sermon, I wanna address what Rohan has to say. I hold nothing against him for the delay as I teetered with it and barely managed to do this as well as my WZCW roleplay for this round. I also have a match to write just to add to the stress. The moral, maybe I should've taken time off at WZCW before signing up here. Let's get to it.

    First off, unprotected chair shots are not gone. More or less, they are not to the head in WWE to an extent in TNA, but not so anywhere else. Secondly, a chairshot should be the least of your worries when you have a man flying at you from 10 feet in the air crashing and snapping your arm off as poor Wade Barrett can attest to. Furthermore, how is your KO from the video worse than falling off a 20 foot steel cage? Or off a 20 foot ladder through 2 tables? The referee stopped the match after the knockout in your video, but in pro wrestling, if that wasn't the finish and the wrestler had enough to say he wasn't done, they were indeed not done.

    A 619 can do you in. Then again, so can a Diving Headbutt. Simple looking, but that was not the case. I understand that in MMA the fighters aim at each other with everything they have, but that does not include the many outside hazards showcased constantly by wrestling. Collapsing announce tables are one as Triple H and Kurt Angle can testify to.

    Yes, but Brock did not catch his sickness from fighting in MMA. In MMA, his stomach is a bulls-eye. In WWE, it can be ignored but what could save him from botching another Shooting Star Press should he attempt it? The possible source of his neck issues? Probably. What if a planned spot for his match with John Cena at Extreme Rules goes wrong? MMA just had hard punches and kicks. WWE has all sorts of weapons. There are far more chances for things to go awry as I will demonstrate next.



    Wrestlers Give Their Life For The Business; Don't Be Shocked That Wrestling Has Taken It By Force
    [​IMG]
    You had to expect this one


    How truly deadly can the sports entertainment world be? It's biggest victims sadly can't attest to that, but their tragic, untimely demises in the worst of places have certainly left a bloody stain in our hearts that makes us truly admire what these men and women leave behind just to make us smile. Think about it. They leave their families, homes and such to head on the road to put on a show for a bunch of people that mostly admire them for the way they get hurt. Some have truly paid the final price. Who some of these? Well let's see.

    [​IMG]

    Chris Candido (1972-2005)

    Chris Candido won the vacant NWA World Heavyweight Championship after Shane Douglas infamously vacated it to kick off the ECW revolution. He is best known for his stints in ECW and in WWF followed by his highschool sweetheart, Sunny. However, this beloved figure fell in 2005. In the inagural edition of TNA Lockdown, he wrestled with Lance Hoyt versus the team of Apolo and Sonny Siaki. He fractured both his tibia and fibula and dislocated his ankle during the match inside the Six Sides Of Steel and required surgery. However, following said surgery, he collapsed and was rushed back to the hospital. He was diagnosed with pneumonia but despite the doctors draining his lungs, Candido died afterwards. A mere injury caused trouble for him to the point of dying.

    [​IMG]
    Mitsuharu Misawa (1962-2009)

    An iconic booker and wrestler from Japan, Misawa was loved by all fans of the Puroresu sub-style. However, his time sadly came in the very ring he loved and helped create. On June 19, 2009 at his own Pro Wrestling Noah, during a tag team match with Go Shiosaki against GHC Tag Team Champions Bison Smith (deceased as well due to heart failures) and Akitoshi Saito , Misawa lost consciousness taking a belly to back suplex from Saito. The cause of death was later speculated in the official police report to have been a cervical spinal cord injury that caused cardiac arrest. However, Misawa's family invoked a Japanese law that requested the police not publicly release the official cause of death. However, since then Japanese promoters have taken a strong grip on regulating their wrestler's and their moves potential danger, further siting just how dangerous the business can really be. (Partially taken from Wikipedia)


    [​IMG]
    He's not the dead person, but due to lack of info, he'll have to do.

    For the unaware The Great Khali, a former World Champion in the WWE, has claimed the life of a fellow pro wrestler. One Brian Ong died indirectly at the hands of the Punjabi Playboy. During training, Brian and Khali botched a Flapjack. The evaluators told him he needed more practice so they kept on going. This while Brian had a concussion. A second botch did Brian in, costing Khali and All Pro Wrestling $1.3 mil in lawsuits.

    [​IMG]
    "Iron" Mike DiBiase (1923-1969)

    The patriarch (via adoption) of the DiBiase wrestling family is another tragic figure lost in the ring. On July 2, 1969 in Lubbock, Texas, DiBiase suffered a fatal heart attack in the ring during a match with Man Mountain Mike. Harley Race, realizing that he was suffering a heart attack, attempted to perform CPR on DiBiase and then rode in the ambulance to the hospital with him. DiBiase was pronounced dead at the hospital. (Taken from Wikipedia)

    [​IMG]
    Owen Hart (1965-1999)

    We're all familiar with Owen Hart, his family's ties to wrestling and his unfortunate accident. He died at WWF's Over The Edge 1999 PPV under the Blue Blazer gimmick when rappelling down from the rafters. His harness malfunctioned and dropped him from nearly 80 feet high, killing him as he bounced off the top rope missing a turnbuckle by a mere foot. The PPV carried on as the WWF and it's fans were left shaken the rest of the night. A case that shows that there is far more to the dangers pro wrestling presents than mere in-ring blows.


    My next and final example may show just how dark and ugly things get. As you know, pro wrestling is an act of give and take. Wrestlers trust their partners to use their maneuvers safely and wisely to perform a solid match. But what happens when that one golden rule that makes pro wrestling what it is is broken? I'll tell you what it does. It can forever cripple a promotion, kill a wrestler and even slander the legal system of an entire country.

    [​IMG]
    Bruiser Brody (1946-1988)

    Bruiser Brody along with Abdullah The Butcher and Carlos Colon are cultural icons of Puerto Rican pop culture. They made hardcore wrestling be known in the western world and were based on my home country. Brody himself was major draw wherever he went whether it was with his long-time tag team partner Stan Hansen or by himself. But those who know Stan Hansen know he likes to work stiff. Brody took it a step further by, at times, being completely uncooperative as Lex Luger and Bill Alfonso can testify to. The night was July 16 in 1988 at the town of Bayamon when fellow pro wrestler and booker, Jose Huertas Gonzalez (AKA The Invader) called Brody for a meeting at the showers. Groans were heard and Brody had to be rushed to the hospital when Tony Atlas rushed in to find a bloody Brody with Invader standing with a knife in hand. Brody died while The Invader was at first charged with first-degree murder and then involuntary homicide. Both times citing self-defense. Unfortunately, due to Brody's behavior, The Invader was never sentenced. What followed was the likes of people such as Ric Flair, Macho Man Randy Savage and such, regular fixtures at the time leaving thus giving a crippling low blow to the growing promotion just WWF's Rock and Wrestling was in full gear. Men like Stan Hansen, Terry Funk and Mick Foley, who contemplated working at Capital Sports Promotions/WWC never came and people still cry foul at Puerto Rico's legal system for doing nothing about Brody's murder. Now I ask, can the history of MMA truly match such brutality? I very highly doubt it.
     
    #6
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  7. ¡Roján!

    ¡Roján! Down with the trumpets.

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    Except dangerous things like unprotected headshots and blading. :)

    I'm sure MMA fighters work the same or more days a year training, in the gym and practising than wrestlers due on the road. Just because a tree falls in the woods, it doesn't mean it isn't heard, does it? MMA fighters risk their careers and well-beings on a daily-basis, I'm sure. You just don't see it. Saying that pro-wrestling is more dangerous than MMA because of the gruelling schedule makes no sense.

    Surely all these precautions and checks are done for a reason in that MMA is far more risky to fight in than professional wrestling. They need to be checked up on to clear them to fight on because if not, they're risking death.

    Injuries happen all the time, not just to wrestlers but to everyone. As far as I know, none of the wrestlers you mentioned injuries have [/I]definitely[/I] been down to wrestling. Some people are just born with bad knees, necks and backs. Gil Meche, a baseball player, recently retired due to injury, but you wouldn't make a claim that baseball is dangerous, would you?

    This may sound a little ridiculous but botches that cause injuries are... anomalies. They're not planned ahead. No-one in the WWE, TNA or ROH sits down and writes scenarios for a botch, do they? They happen, but, they're executing the art of professional wrestling wrong. Whereas in MMA, injuries are what's supposed to happen. People plan ahead for them. They're part of it. That's the main difference on why MMA is more dangerous than professional wrestling.

    There's also another thing I'd like to touch on before leaving this round of posting. Right now, we see people like Sting, at the age of 56 still wrestle on a daily-basis relatively risk-free with no signs of retirement to come. However, when you look at MMA, the age factor comes into the picture much earlier. Matt Hamill, for example, retired at the age of 34, and it wasn't due to injuries. How many wrestlers do you see do that, huh? The wrestlers can afford to wrestle on because it isn't as dangerous for their well-being as you believe. That's more proof for the MMA is more dangerous than professional wrestling cake, huh? ;)

    So, one of your arguments as to why professional wrestling is more dangerous than MMA is that you might fall in love in the workplace?

    [​IMG]

    Hey, at least in professional wrestling you can count on the services of divorce lawyer David Otunga, something which in MMA you can't. Yet again, Rohan proves that MMA is more dangerous than professional wrestling :lmao:

    Here's a quote from a site about injuries in MMA from 2002-2007:

    Source: http://mobile.mmamania.com/2008/04/16/mma-injuries-report-a-five-year-review-2002-2007/

    I'd say lacerations and upper-extremity injuries are hardly to be taken lightly. Not to mention the countless broken arms and the time Frank Mir got punted so hard in the balls that he lost one in his stomach, that aren't mentioned here.

    Now, on to your third post. Well, Killjoy, it is very hard to argue with deaths, I'm not going to lie. Only one MMA-related death has ever happened, as a matter of fact. What I will say, though, is that, except Mitsuharu Misawa's death, all of these incidents happened before the professional wrestling world cleaned up it's act. Wrestling used to be brutal, wrestling used to be a life-threatening profession, but, things have changed in that world where as MMAs main objective has always stayed the same; beat the shit out of your opponent until he's senseless. If you'd have given me this topic 5 years ago, I would have given up, but I truely belive that a wrestling ring is a much safer place to be in than an octagon in this day and age.

    Now, in the interest of concluding as I doubt I'll have the time to post again until the deadline due to time zones and the fact that this is already taken me three and a half hours to write from my phone, MMA is more dangerous than professional and here are the main indicators and reasons why:

    • MMA is real, and every single blow has enough force to knock someone out and cause life-threatening injuries and concussions
    • Preautions and tests are done far more often than in wrestling, as any little injury can cause a life-threatening one in the octagon
    • MMA schedule is more rigurous and causes fighters to retire earlier compared to wrestling
    • Injuries happen more often in the MMA of today than in the professional wrestling world of today
    • Lesnar retired from MMA because he couldn't take it anymore, yet wrestling is no problem

      And, most imporantly:


    • The main objective of MMA is to inflict as much pain as possible whereas wrestling stars aim to cause the least amount possible

    Thanks.
     
    #7
  8. ABMorales787

    ABMorales787 Lord And Master
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    Counter-productive to your argument if you ask me. MMA fighters are forced to retire young to avoid major injuries. In wrestling, a guy who broke his back and was told he would never wrestle again came back 4 years later. Shawn Michaels. Should I point out how Edge and Steve Austin bordered paralysis for wrestling after neck surgery or does that one explain itself? The looser atmosphere of wrestling shows it makes it more dangerous to the wrestlers. I mean last I checked, fighting at your 60's is a bad thing, right?

    Well of course. I don't recall people's dirty laundry being aired in UFC. It drove Lita to retirement, caused heavy tensions in TNA and WCW and you know, that's unsafe. Call it a "mental danger".

    Right. So wrestling used to be very unsafe. After several grueling deaths, NOW it isn't. But it used to be. Forgive me for being skeptical, but if we need deaths to learn how to do things, I'd say we are pretty freakin' unsafe. I bring you deaths and murders and you bring me cuts and bruises. You know, it's funny really. You say if this was 5 years ago, you'd give up. When UFC was fresh off the box, the concept was literally Mortal Kombat taken literally minus the Fatalities. Funny enough though, it does not have the bloodstained history of wrestling.


    ...Well, wait I minute. Isn't there a full blown documentary on how brutal pro wrestling is? Well yeah, yeah there is. Not just that, but how can you argue about MMA being dangerous when you have CZW running around? People cut themeselves open every match with lightbulbs and lawnmowers. That safe? Nope. It's fucking dangerous. Add how botch-tastic the company is and it just piles on the lack of safety.

    So basically, MMA is more dangerous because there's... More precaution? :confused:
    Really now? Why does pro wrestling have a higher margin for this stuff? Why is pro wrestling the one frowned upon for it's lack of protection for it's workers? In MMA, elevated testosterone's get you kicked off a title match. In wrestling you could hold off fucking neck surgery. You think Lesnar retired from MMA because it was more dangerous? UFC doesn't want a sick guy. WWE, just sees dollar signs.
    Right. And that spared oh so many lives. Wait, NOT. Why? Because wrestling if FAR more elaborate. It's not just punching, kicking and holds.

    MMA doesn't have guys leaping off the cage.

    MMA doesn't have guys climbing 20 foot cages.

    MMA doesn't use weapons.

    MMA FORCES fighters to be in peak condition before fights. Wrestling will often work around it.

    MMA hasn't destroyed lives due to injuries, stresses backstage or basic stage malfunctions.

    MMA doesn't have MURDER in it's history.

    MMA, being sport, can't have stuff like the Original Screwjob or the Montreal version happen.


    The numbers don't lie, and they spell disaster for you. Wrestling, throughout history, has shown that it is faaaar more dangerous than MMA.
     
    #8
  9. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Ok, this debate is now closed.

    Judges, you may begin.
     
    #9
  10. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    Clarity - Killjoy. His open was great and had some solid work with quoting important things, but not quote for quote debating.

    Point - The Killjoy

    Punctuation - Rojan was late.

    Point - The Killjoy

    Informative - Great examples, pictures, and gifs from Killjoy. Helped his side a lot.

    Point - The Killjoy

    Persuasion - Killjoy just took this one and did it hard. Rojan tried, but the continuous examples from Killjoy just shrugged it off each time.

    Points - The Killjoy

    CH David scores this The Killjoy 5, ¡Roján! 0.
     
    #10
  11. FunKay the Inevitable

    FunKay the Inevitable People Like Me, We Don't Play

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    Clarity: KillJoy's posts were easier to read and even understand. They flowed well and were enjoyable.

    Punctuality: KillJoy was here more and on time more.

    Informative: More information, more images, more everything, KillJoy walks it.

    Persuasion: KillJoy, KillJoy, KillJoy. I didn't really feel Rohan was truly in this one very much and his lateness, combined with KillJoy's information and such made this a fairly easy choice.

    FunKay Scores It: KillJoy: 5, Rohan: 0
     
    #11
  12. SavageTaker

    SavageTaker Everybody Has A Price!

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    Clarity of debate -I thought you absolutely killed it with your opening posts Killjoy. I mean that in a good way, so you get the point here.

    Punctuality - Rojan was late and Killjoy was much quicker in his responses so he gets the point.

    Informative - Like my fellow judges said, Killjoy brought in more relevant info. Rojan didn't really bring much and KJ made better use of his info so he's going to get the point here.

    Persuasion -Killjoy really proved here that pro wrestling can be more dangerous than MMA and did a great job in his rebuttals. This was honestly a huge improvement from your debate with Rattle KJ. I thought you didn't do good in that debate, but you absolutely shined here. Great job and you've earned this win.

    Killjoy: 5 points, Rojan: 0 points.
     
    #12
  13. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Even if Rohan gets a perfect score from Nate, he cannot win this bracket. Therefore, Killjoy has clinched his defeat over Rohan by a score of 15-0. He will move onto Winner's final bracket #27!!

    Rohan gained his first loss of the tournament but isn't out yet. He gets bumped down to Loser's bracket #25.
     
    #13
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