TNA Region, Fourth Round, 60 Minute Iron Man Match: (1) John Cena vs. (4) Lou Thesz

[Cereal Killer]

If you are just voting for someone because they are more current or modern is just as bad.

It really isn't.

In this thread it has been suggested that Cena should win because he wrestles a more modern style and Thesz would not be able to handle it.

Yeah and that's why a lot of today's main event superstars are more likely to defeat the stars of the 1940s. How would they be able to keep up with the pace and the athleticism of the athletes today? Look at what Thesz does in his matches and the damage he takes compared to what goes on in a John Cena match. So it really isn't bad to argue that a modern guy can beat one from Thesz's days. Thesz wouldn't be used to such a pace or such pain.

Thesz wrestled in the late 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s. He won the UWA Title in Mexico in 1978 at the age of 62 and held it for one year. Obviously Thesz has the ability to change with the times and adapt. Arguing he couldn't adapt to Cena is foolish.

He did indeed wrestle in all of those decades but there was hardly any evolution in what he did. I've watched a few Thesz matches from the past and even if you watch his final match in 1990, he still does the same thing. Bear in mind what Cena does is completely different to what went on back then. Thesz wouldnt be able to adjust as easily as you're implying.

 

[ServantofTwilight]

It really isn't.

Why? If I vote Thesz only because he is older and you vote Cena just because he is newer how am I wrong and you right? We are both just looking at one thing and saying it is better. Slyfox suggested it was wrong just to vote someone because they are older yet it is not wrong to do the same thing but with newer.

Yeah and that's why a lot of today's main event superstars are more likely to defeat the stars of the 1940s. How would they be able to keep up with the pace and the athleticism of the athletes today? Look at what Thesz does in his matches and the damage he takes compared to what goes on in a John Cena match. So it really isn't bad to argue that a modern guy can beat one from Thesz's days. Thesz wouldn't be used to such a pace or such pain.

Bad to argue it, no. It is bad to just assume that since someone is current they automatically go over someone older.

He did indeed wrestle in all of those decades but there was hardly any evolution in what he did. I've watched a few Thesz matches from the past and even if you watch his final match in 1990, he still does the same thing. Bear in mind what Cena does is completely different to what went on back then. Thesz wouldnt be able to adjust as easily as you're implying.

But there was evolution with others, yet Thesz was able to remain a credible wrestler even at 62. You are telling me a 62 year old man defeating younger guys in 1978 wouldn't, in his prime, be able to adapt to Cena? And also, would Cena be able to adapt to Thesz?

 

[Slyfox696]

It's good to see people paying attention to the arguments and voting for the right person. Glad to see the rightful person moving on.

Slyfox suggested it was wrong just to vote someone because they are older

It is.

yet it is not wrong to do the same thing but with newer.

I never said that. I gave many reasons why John Cena should win. The only counter was a nonsensical argument about how we should give Thesz all the credit for being older but ignore all the drawbacks. Which means people were voting for Thesz just because he was older and that's stupid.

 

[Tastycles]

Look, I voted Thesz and did so because he beat most of the big faces of his time whereas Cena has a record of losing to them. But that's not really what I'm interested in.

A principle argument has been about staying power over an hour and Cena's better conditioning. While I don't doubt the truth in that, isn't that a shoot match argument? If this were an actual wrestling match, the two would work at a mutually suitable pace. When people wrestle The Great Khali, it's not a Lucha libre match, is it? Arguing that Cena has better stamina is like arguing the same for Tito Santana against Ultimate Warrior. It's true in the real world, but has it been shown to be true in the world of wrestling?

Cena has wrestled older stars and never shown any real conditioning benefit. When Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair were wrestling guys literally 25 years their junior you don't see them blowing out of their arse despite the fact that Ric Flieher and Terry Bollea the men are clearly less fit than their opponents were.

To bring in conditioning is, in my eyes, trying to turn this into a legitimate contest which Lou Thesz would unquestionably win. I'm not making a point in favour of Thesz here, I just think the argument is daft.

 

[Slyfox696]

Look, I voted Thesz and did so because he beat most of the big faces of his time whereas Cena has a record of losing to them. But that's not really what I'm interested in.

A principle argument has been about staying power over an hour and Cena's better conditioning. While I don't doubt the truth in that, isn't that a shoot match argument? If this were an actual wrestling match, the two would work at a mutually suitable pace. When people wrestle The Great Khali, it's not a Lucha libre match, is it? Arguing that Cena has better stamina is like arguing the same for Tito Santana against Ultimate Warrior. It's true in the real world, but has it been shown to be true in the world of wrestling?

Cena has wrestled older stars and never shown any real conditioning benefit. When Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair were wrestling guys literally 25 years their junior you don't see them blowing out of their arse despite the fact that Ric Flieher and Terry Bollea the men are clearly less fit than their opponents were.

To bring in conditioning is, in my eyes, trying to turn this into a legitimate contest which Lou Thesz would unquestionably win. I'm not making a point in favour of Thesz here, I just think the argument is daft.

Actually, from what I can tell, the only people who were trying to make conditioning a factor in this matchup were the Thesz people. The argument, over and over, was that the match gimmick was perfect for Thesz because he used to work a bunch of 60 minutes matches. My point was to defeat that argument, because there is no evidence Lou Thesz is in any better conditioning than Cena. And once that argument was debunked, there really weren't a lot of valid arguments in favor of Thesz.

 

[Tastycles]

Actually, from what I can tell, the only people who were trying to make conditioning a factor in this matchup were the Thesz people. The argument, over and over, was that the match gimmick was perfect for Thesz because he used to work a bunch of 60 minutes matches. My point was to defeat that argument, because there is no evidence Lou Thesz is in any better conditioning than Cena. And once that argument was debunked, there really weren't a lot of valid arguments in favor of Thesz.

Fair enough. I hate match length arguments. If a wrestler won literally every single match in 2 minutes, this would be perceived as a disadvantage. You can draw without going the distance, just ask Mike Tyson.

 

[ServantofTwilight]

It is.

But is it equally stupid to vote for someone just because they are current? Would one half of the Usos go over Thesz?

I never said that. I gave many reasons why John Cena should win. The only counter was a nonsensical argument about how we should give Thesz all the credit for being older but ignore all the drawbacks. Which means people were voting for Thesz just because he was older and that's stupid.

Never said you did. That line was in response to something Cereal Killer said. And I think Bernkastel gave good arguments.

My real problem was people saying Thesz could not handle or adapt to Cena's style. I tried to show that Thesz did manage to wrestle and defeat men into the 1970s while he was well past his prime. I firmly believe a prime Thesz would defeat Cena. If that makes my vote stupid, oh well.

Anyway, I was in the minority and Cena won so.....good luck next round.

 

[Slyfox696]

But is it equally stupid to vote for someone just because they are current? Would one half of the Usos go over Thesz?

It wouldn't be stupid to vote for a modern great over a legendary great. Jimmy Uso is nowhere near the level of John Cena.

But if you were to take George Mikan and the Minneapolis Lakers of the early 1950s and put them against LeBron James and the Cleveland Cavaliers of today, do you really think a seven game series wouldn't end in the favor of the Cavs, perhaps by sweep? Of course you do, as would anyone viewing this rationally.

Anyway, I was in the minority and Cena won so.....good luck next round.

I'll see you there.