WCW Region, Fourth Round, 60 Minute Iron Man: (2) Undertaker vs. (6) Lou Thesz

[klunderbunker]

This is a fourth round match in the WCW Region. It is a 60 Minute Iron Man match, held at the Phillips Arena in Atlanta, Georgia. One week has passed since the third round, so some injuries or fatigue may be a factor.

Rules: The match will last 60 minutes and the man with the most falls win. A fall is earned by pinfall, submission, countout or disqualification.

#2. Undertaker

Vs.

#6. Lou Thesz

​

Polls will be open for five days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

 

[Con T.]

Man, might as well just make this "you win if your name is Lou" match. Undie has already lost to the far inferior Kurt Angle on multiple occasions. Kurt Angle isn't even in the same stratosphere as Lou Thesz, even if he is the closest descendant of Thesz. Thesz is probably around ten-twenty times better.

And now you're asking Taker to last sixty minutes, too.

Thesz, in a laugher.

 

[SSJPhenom]

I don't want to hear anyone argue that 'Taker can't go an hour because he damn sure could. Also, how would Thesz earn a fall over 'Taker? By making him submit? Not likely. 'Taker has the fire power to earn more falls over Thesz during this match and even if 'Taker were to start losing stamina close to the end I believe that he would have already gained enough falls over Thesz to get the job done.

Vote 'Taker.

 

[GI Cake]

Have you seen how long Undertaker's entrances are? Taker's entrance gives him a far more significant advantage than most people think. The match will start and 50 minutes in, Taker finally gets to the god damn ring and chokes slam old man McOlderson.

 

[Bernkastel]

I don't want to hear anyone argue that 'Taker can't go an hour because he damn sure could.

So Taker could go an hour, BFD. Thesz would be treating him like a baby the whole time.

, how would Thesz earn a fall over 'Taker? By making him submit? Not likely.

If Kurt Angle can submit the Undertaker i'm sure Thesz will be just fine.

'Taker has the fire power to earn more falls over Thesz during this match and even if 'Taker were to start losing stamina close to the end I believe that he would have already gained enough falls over Thesz to get the job done.

And I would love to see Taker use all this amazing offense when Thesz has him tied up like a pretzel writhing around in pain on the mat for half the match.

Obviously Thesz would win. This is the type of match he built his career on. And he was known for schooling clowns like Taker all day and night. Thesz is top three wrestler. Undertaker would do well to crack the top 30. And Thesz's drawing power, legacy, and impact on the business were basically second to almost none.

Thesz wins in a walk.

 

[SSJPhenom]

So Taker could go an hour, BFD. Thesz would be treating him like a baby the whole time.

Ha, ha.

If Kurt Angle can submit the Undertaker i'm sure Thesz will be just fine.

Us hardcore fans know about that night on Smackdown where 'Taker tapped to Angle while at the same time pinning Angle, however, if you were to ask the everyday wrestling fan if The Undertaker has ever tapped out they would say no. Why? Because 'Taker has never officially lost a match due to submission.

And I would love to see Taker use all this amazing offense when Thesz has him tied up like a pretzel writhing around in pain on the mat for half the match.

Obviously Thesz would win. This is the type of match he built his career on. And he was known for schooling clowns like Taker all day and night. Thesz is top three wrestler. Undertaker would do well to crack the top 30. And Thesz's drawing power, legacy, and impact on the business were basically second to almost none.

Thesz wins in a walk.

You're totally under estimating 'Taker's ability to actually wrestle. And while yes, Thesz does have the bigger legacy, 'Taker has beaten every big name in the business over the past 25 years. If Thesz had have been in this era he'd be on the list. All I'm saying is that Thesz excelled in this type match, yes, but to see him beat 'Taker by submission is hard to envision and that's what Thesz was all about.

 

[nightmare]

Taker would end up on shaky legs with that half glazed look in his eye & his fists up about halfway through this match. He will have already done the situp a few times & we are out of gas here folks. He isnt winning this match.


Thesz just takes his time and picks him apart at his own pace for the majority of this match. Taker would be part of a Thesz streak & Lou moves on to the next round.

 

[Bernkastel]

Us hardcore fans know about that night on Smackdown where 'Taker tapped to Angle while at the same time pinning Angle, however, if you were to ask the everyday wrestling fan if The Undertaker has ever tapped out they would say no. Why? Because 'Taker has never officially lost a match due to submission.

Oh, so we're using "everyday" fans then that weren't around when Taker actually did tap? If you were to ask fans in the 60's if Thesz was beatable, or if there was someone that he couldn't submit, they'd probably tell you to stay away from the silly juice.

The fact is Taker has tapped. Thesz was the best technical wrestler in history not named Ed Lewis. If Taker didn't tap he'd pass out.

You're totally under estimating 'Taker's ability to actually wrestle.

Define "actually wrestle?" If it's technical then he doesn't hold a candle to Thesz. In fact Taker has never fought anyone who does. If he tried, Thesz would just get him with bridge or suplex pin for his troubles.

And while yes, Thesz does have the bigger legacy, 'Taker has beaten every big name in the business over the past 25 years.

And he's lost more times to those big Hogan/Cena/Austin/Rock names way more than he's beaten them.

If Thesz had have been in this era he'd be on the list.

And if Taker existed in the 60's he'd probably tap out against Thesz within 20 minutes.

All I'm saying is that Thesz excelled in this type match, yes, but to see him beat 'Taker by submission is hard to envision and that's what Thesz was all about.

If Taker doesn't tap, then he'd pass out. Thesz would win via KO. Or he'd lose via bridge. It wasn't just all submissions Thesz could do.

 

[Mac Attack]

I'm voting Taker. I respect Lou Thesz, being the fourth tournament I read I've come to learn a lot about him, however the Deadman would win this seeing as how he more often than not is the one to pop up at the last minute, (say a tied 3/3) and hit a Tombstone out of nowhere to win it with time dwindling. Thinking of this as actual booking it would honestly come down to the final time and those often go Takers way.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

This is all Thesz, seriously I don't even see how it's debatable. An iron man match with Thesz and Taker wins? How Taker in no way wins this match, none. Thesz would tie Taker up in knots, not only that but Taker is known for losing matches like this. Taker loses big matches, and please don't give me "the streak" bs. It was mostly against second level guys and Taker never faced the number one guy at Wm and had he, he would've lost.

 

[Bernkastel]

I'm voting Taker. I respect Lou Thesz, being the fourth tournament I read I've come to learn a lot about him, however the Deadman would win this seeing as how he more often than not is the one to pop up at the last minute, (say a tied 3/3) and hit a Tombstone out of nowhere to win it with time dwindling. Thinking of this as actual booking it would honestly come down to the final time and those often go Takers way.

Er... time dwindling usually has shown to favor Thesz as well. For example his match for the title against Verne Gagne in 1952 in Chicago, Gagne was choking Thesz out in the final moments and yet Thesz held on until the time limit draw had passed. Even if Taker wanted to play the technical wrestling game with Thesz, it's probably going to backfire.

Thesz was known for getting quick decisive wins with bridges, roll ups, and suplex holds. He could easily go up several falls just by straight out maneuvering Taker. To the point where Taker wouldn't be able to capitalize.

 

[Mac Attack]

I don't disagree with you Echelon on Thesz ability to do that as surely it's happened before, however I'd also argue that you're cutting Undertaker a bit short in that argument. They've both had very long careers and both are really wise in the ring. Whilst Thesz is known to do that, Undertaker (until recently) has been known to be a ring general as well and would probably counter it or at the very least adapt. If they're both in their primes, I still think it would be really close with the final minute or so being the deciding factor. Thesz has never faced anyone with a gimmick like Taker, Taker is known for getting up when all hope is lost, slitting his throat and ending it, whilst Thesz is great, I view Taker as excellent.

 

[SSJPhenom]

I also look at it like this: How many times has Thesz wrestled 7 foot tall, over 300 lb men? To my knowledge, not much. How many times has 'Taker wrestled small, technical types? To say that 'Taker wouldn't be able to compete is ridiculous. We've seen him have great technical matches in the past with people that resemble Thesz and 'Taker has done well against these type of wrestlers. I think this will be a close match tied in the closing moments with Thesz walking into a quick chokeslam or tombstone.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

I also look at it like this: How many times has Thesz wrestled 7 foot tall, over 300 lb men? To my knowledge, not much. How many times has 'Taker wrestled small, technical types? To say that 'Taker wouldn't be able to compete is ridiculous. We've seen him have great technical matches in the past with people that resemble Thesz and 'Taker has done well against these type of wrestlers. I think this will be a close match tied in the closing moments with Thesz walking into a quick chokeslam or tombstone.

You do realize in his prime against other guys in their primes that Taker was owned by Hart and HBK right? Bret hart beat him in a fatal fourway, he also beat him in one on one encounters including their biggest match at summerslam 97, Taker went on from there to lose to Hart at One night only, on from there to be absolutely owned btw HBK. Losing to him in HITC and at the Royal Rumble in a casket match. Taker was built to lose big matches he's been in and this is another example of that.

 

[SSJPhenom]

You do realize in his prime against other guys in their primes that Taker was owned by Hart and HBK right? Bret hart beat him in a fatal fourway, he also beat him in one on one encounters including their biggest match at summerslam 97, Taker went on from there to lose to Hart at One night only, one from there to be absolutely owned btw HBK. Losing to him in HITC and at the Royal Rumble in a casket match. Taker as built to lose big matches he's been in and this is another example of that.

Everyone of those matches that 'Taker was "owned" in he lost due to outside interference. I literally mean that neither Hart nor HBK has beaten 'Taker cleanly ever in one on one matches. So who is going to help Thesz?

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

Everyone of those matches that 'Taker was "owned" in he lost due to outside interference. I literally mean that neither Hart nor HBK has beaten 'Taker cleanly ever in one on one matches. So who is going to help Thesz?

Actually, you're wrong, Taker was Dq'd against Hart, and also never beat HBK until long after his prime. Taker would lose this match because that's what Taker did. Lost big matches. It's a constant with him and to far less important stars than Thesz. Taker was a second or third rate star who was owned by the likes of HBK, Hart, Austin, Rock, Angle, and Lesnar. Taker would find a way to lose this match, because when he fought top flight competition he almost always did.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Actually, you're wrong, Taker was Dq'd against Hart, and also never beat HBK until long after his prime. Taker would lose this match because that's what Taker did. Lost big matches. It's a constant with him and to far less important stars than Thesz. Taker was a second or third rate star who was owned by the likes of HBK, Hart, Austin, Rock, Angle, and Lesnar. Taker would find a way to lose this match, because when he fought top flight competition he almost always did.

Again he never beat HBK because of Kane and DX and in the match where he was dq'd against Hart someone interfered. So how am I wrong? Again, who is going to help Thesz? Because 'Taker has had Hart and HBK dead to rights several times.

So your argument here is that the universe just won't allow 'Taker to win because everyone that's beaten him needed help more often then not. You do know that 'Taker has beaten every single one of those names except for Lesnar right? He successfully defended the title against Austin in 97, took the title off of Austin along with Kane in 98, and took the title off of Austin in 99.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

Again he never beat HBK because of Kane and DX and in the match where he was dq'd against Hart someone interfered. So how am I wrong? Again, who is going to help Thesz? Because 'Taker has had Hart and HBK dead to rights several times.

So your argument here is that the universe just won't allow 'Taker to win because everyone that's beaten him needed help more often then not. You do know that 'Taker has beaten every single one of those names except for Lesnar right? He successfully defended the title against Austin in 97, took the title off of Austin along with Kane in 98, and took the title off of Austin in 99.

Okay I'll put it to you this way. Thesz was the most dominate man of his generation and his time period in wrestling, while Taker was a second rate, second tier jobber to the stars. You want to talk about outside interference in matches, but you ignore it in 97 when austin had taker out before that when the loose cannon rang the belt stopping Austin from winning that match. In 1998 it was a handicap match for lack of a better term and the over the edge win wasn't clean either. Fact is in a one off Thesz destroys taker in all reality. And yes if the Universe saw an injustice like Taker over Thesz happening it would probably interfere.

 

[Dan Severn's Moustache]

Everyone seems to be so hellbent one way or the other...I'm on the fence myself.

Taker in his prime pretty much never lost clean (there was always interference sabotaging Taker's chances) but if there's anyone that can beat Taker in his prime cleanly, it's Thesz.

The stipulation I don't believe favours anyone as Thesz is an incredibly durable wrestler, but it is also very difficult to pin Taker as I said above (it took about 12 people to put him down in the 1994 Rumble).

Well, I've got to rush to a lecture now, so I'll give my personal thoughts on how the match plays out: It's a heavy hitting match with lots of kickouts, but at about the 45 minute mark, Thesz is tombstoned for the X time and the score is 1-0. With everything to lose, Thesz takes Taker down for the three count with five minutes remaining to tie. The match goes to sudden death, where I see Thesz capitalizing on a tired Undertaker and scarcely putting him down for the three count.

So I'm leaning Thesz after mulling it over, but I can be convinced either way. I'll try and expand tonight.

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

This is a very unfortunate draw for Undertaker here. Give him a more violent, hardcore match like a HIAC, then this is 'Taker's....but this 60 minute match is right up Thesz's alley. He made his name in long matches like this, and would have more than enough in his locker to get several points against 'Taker.

This would be a hard match for Thesz though, Undertaker doesn't tap often (if at all), and I'm pretty sure The Deadman would get a couple of falls himself with the Tombstone Piledriver, and Thesz would find a way to get a couple of falls himself (via roll-up or some other method). It would come down to the final fall, but I think Thesz sneaks this one with a late submission, after 'Taker refused to submit throughout the rest of the match.

Winner: Lou Thesz

 

[MrMojoRisin]

I don't think some people here are actually aware of just how good Thesz was, and just how much a 60 minute Iron Man match favors someone like him.

He won his first World title at age 21. Three decades later, he finally lost his last one.

So much of the wrestling we take for granted today... Thesz innovated decades ago.

One of the reasons he was either champion, or able to jump right back into the championship picture despite semi-retirements, is because he was simply the toughest guy in the business. Unless he suffered a freak injury, or wanted to take time off... you simply couldn't beat Thesz.

There wasn't such thing as MMA in his time, but if there was, Lou Thesz would have dominated that sport.

The US Military enlisted him to teach hand to hand combat in the 40's. Think about that for a second. The largest army in the world wanted this man to teach them how to fight.

Now let's get onto the actual match.

There's a reason you don't see men the size of the Undertaker booked in 60 minute Iron Man matches. They have a hard time going at a high level for the entire 60 minutes. The typical big Undertaker match goes around 25 minutes. That's not even half of what he'd have to do here. Taker would struggle with a technical marvel that could inflict pure pain like few others ever over a full 60 minutes.

Someone used the argument that Thesz never had to fight guys the size of the Undertaker. To that, I give you Killer Kowalski. 6'7 and 290 lbs. Pretty close to the Undertakers size. Thesz DOMINATED Kowalski over the years... many of the times in 2 out of 3 falls matches, which were the standard for title matches back in the day.

The 2 out of 3 falls match is another thing to consider. Being champ, Thesz fought MANY of these matches, and almost always won... showing that he had no problems having to beat someone more than once to win a match. Experience that would definitely come into play in an Iron Man Match.

The 60 minute time limit is another factor. Thesz went 60 minutes all the time. That was just the norm. He'd do it several times a week. I don't believe the Undertaker has ever wrestled 60 minutes in a night once in his life... let alone all at once.

There's some matches I can see the Undertaker beating Thesz in. Matches where he can use his size and strength advantages. This match, simply isn't one of them.

Lou Thesz advances (or at least he should)

 

[Richard Blonoff]

I don't want to vote Thesz in this match because I give no shits about wrestling back in the day and how legit it was, but I'm gonna have to vote for him. Yes, it is true that Taker never officially tapped out, but he did pass out to the Mandible Claw, at the '96 King of the Ring. So Thesz wins this for me.

The only argument that I think could help Taker is that fatigue from the last round does carry over and Taker won his match fairly handily while Thesz just scraped past Savage, so you have figure that Thesz took more a beating so he won't be as fresh.

 

[Thriller Ant]

The only argument that I think could help Taker is that fatigue from the last round does carry over and Taker won his match fairly handily while Thesz just scraped past Savage, so you have figure that Thesz took more a beating so he won't be as fresh.

I don't think we start taking fatigue into account until the final couple of rounds, if I remember correctly.

When I picture a big Undertaker match in my head, it is him taking a bunch of punishment, hitting a Hail Mary tombstone, and then taking almost as long to get up as the man he beat. That works fine for a one fall match that goes 20 minutes or so, but is a severe disadvantage in an hour long Iron Man match. Even in his no-selling days, he took a lot of punishment and Thesz will make sure that it all piles up. Add in the fact that Undi's longest singles match was half this length while Thesz would go an hour regularly, and my vote goes to Thesz.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

I don't want to vote Thesz in this match because I give no shits about wrestling back in the day and how legit it was, but I'm gonna have to vote for him. Yes, it is true that Taker never officially tapped out, but he did pass out to the Mandible Claw, at the '96 King of the Ring. So Thesz wins this for me.

The only argument that I think could help Taker is that fatigue from the last round does carry over and Taker won his match fairly handily while Thesz just scraped past Savage, so you have figure that Thesz took more a beating so he won't be as fresh.

Maybe you should give at least a couple shits... because even your one argument for the Undertaker doesn't hold up.

Thesz fought Savage in a regular match. Yeah it was close, so you can assume that it almost went the distance... but that wasn't anything out of the ordinary for Thesz. The guy would wrestle 60 minutes a night every night of the week.

There wouldn't have been anything in that match that would have worn him down sufficiently to have it make one bit of difference in this match.

 

[Dragon Chief]

Undertaker has wrestled in 30 minute matches before, plus his entrance is another 30 minutes so that counts as 60?

Sure Thez has more experience and can go the distance but you can't deny Undertaker's will to win in big match situations. If Undertaker were forced to be in an iron-man match, there is no denying he would be able to do it, it just so happens that he was one of the many wrestlers who didn't get to participate in one during his career. I don't think it matters as much as some users think it does. Triple H defeated The Rock in an Iron-man match but lost one to Chris Benoit, who never went 60 minutes before. Experience isn't a major factor, Undertaker never taps out and he rarely gets pinned clean. Undertaker also has more experience in brutal stipulations, which probably drain more out of the wrestler than an Iron-Man match would. I gotta go with the Deadman, he is more than capable of going over Thez.