Rd. 1 Ironman - Pat O'Connor (NZL) vs Chris Benoit (CAN)

[IrishCanadian25]

Pat O'Connor (NZL) vs Chris Benoit (CAN)​

This is a first round Ironman Match in the 2010 Wrestlezolympics. As a first round match, the match will last 30 minutes, and the competitor with the most falls in that time will win. If the score is tied after 30 minutes, sudden death overtime will ensue following a 45-second rest period. First fall will win from there. This match is contested under otherwise normal rules - if a wrestler is disqualified or counted-out, they will lose a fall.

The match will open for discussion on Monday, January 25th, and voting will begin on Wednesday, January 27th. This is a non-spam thread, so if you decide to post, you must provide reasons why you are backing a particular wrestler. You may vote without posting.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

This match, while it lacks the drama of the opening round Hart / Angle submission match, is probably one of the more intreguing contests of the opening round. What makes this so difficult is the fact that O'Connor and Benoit don't just come from different generations, but there is a gap of one or two pro wrestling generations between them. O'Connor died before Benoit really even got started in the mainstream.

a few facts about O'Connor that make his EXTREMELY dangerous in this match:

1. O'Connor is a former 2-time New Zealand amateur heavyweight champion, participated in the 1948 Pan-American games, and won a Silver medal in freestyle wrestling at the 1950 British Empire Games.

2. O'Connor was a 2-year NWA World Heavyweight Champion, wrestling usch superstars as Bruno Sammartino and Johnny Valentine.

3. The attendance record that Wrestlemania 3 broke was for the match bewteen O'Connor and Buddy Rodgers - a match Rodgers won. It was 2-out-of-3 falls, and O'Connor lost 2-1, but clearly does have experience in multi-falls matches, which will benefit him in an Ironman setting.

4. When the AWA left the NWA, O'Connor was named their first World Champion. He never lost the title - he was stripped of it when the title was handed to Verne Gagne.

One-hour time limit draws were par for the course in the old NWA and AWA, and O'Connors quick grappling style and knowledge of cradles (his one fall in the match vs Rodgers was the result of a reverse cradle) allow him to be a constant threat against an equally tough Benoit.

I am really unsure which way I am leaning in this match, but holy hell what a great draw!

 

[D-Man]

It's blatently obvious that the majority of readers are going to choose Benoit out of sheer popularity and awareness. Most readers on these forums are either too uninformed or young to have a clue about who Pat O'Connor is, who he was in pro-wrestling, and what he can do. So, I'm going to state this clearly for everyone to understand...

PLEASE DO YOUR RESEARCH BEFORE VOTING IN THIS CATEGORY. IF YOU ARE UNFAMILIAR WITH PAT O'CONNOR, IT IS UNFAIR TO VOTE FOR CHRIS BENOIT. THIS IS A KAYFABE CONTEST, NOT A POPULARITY CONTEST.

I doubt that will sink into the thick skulls of the WZ posters, but it's worth a shot.

I highly recommend that everyone read IC25's post (above) in regards to Pat O'Connor's legacy before voting, and then try and look up some information on him. I think you're all going to be surprised at how close this match really is.

 

[LascoX]

I see this match going into sudden death ,tied up at one fall each. Pat O.conner takes the tie breaker after slipping the crossface and converting to a small package. Unfortunatly team Canada takes a loss in the first round.

 

[Brettley916]

I'm also going Pat O'Connor on this match. This would be a classic, that's for sure. Like Lasco said, I also see it going to sundden death with O'Connor pulling it out with one of his many cradles. There weren't many better at them than O'Connor.

 

[klunderbunker]

Leaning towards Benoit here, but this is going to be a freaking classic that could go either way. I think at the end of the day, this comes down to Benoit's ability to go in different styles. Both men are amazing technicians, but Benoit could brawl with the best of them. If he goes that route and just goes into wolverine mode, I think it'll be enough to take it. However, if Benoit gets too aggressive, O'Connor is certainly capable of capitalizing into a quick fall. At the moment it's Benoit, but that could change.

 

[Tastycles]

I'm going to go with Benoit for this one. Benoit won both of the iron man type matches that he was ever in, and he is the only person who has been in more than one with a 100% record. O'Connor is certainly no slouch, and it is unfortunate that the inevitable blind votes will turn this into a squash, but it really shouldn't be. O'Connor was a great wrestler, but I don't think I've ever seen him go past 25 minutes, I just don't think it was the style of the times. His most famous match was a three falls match against Buddy Rogers, which he lost after 21 minutes. This match was the headline of the biggest wrestling event until WrestleMania III, which should say something about the guy's popularity, but in the end, I think it's also telling for the result. Benoit has multiple ways to end matches, and I think his dynamicism and stamina would triumph here.

 

[X]

Easy victory for Benoit here. Why? Because Pat O'Connor wrestled in an era of wrestling in which even performing a dropkick was considered absolutely insane and would blow the minds of everyone within a 100 mile radius. Fuck the second Benoit would pull out the diving elbow Pat O'Connor would shit himself, he'd probably think Benoit was batshit crazy, and considering what ultimately happened to Benoit, he'd probably be right.

O'Connor would have exceptional catch-as-catch-can skills, but Benoit is just so superior in the ring to the man that it really isn't even fair to him. Easy victory for Benoit here, O'Connor couldn't keep up with even half of the shit Benoit could pull out of his bag of tricks.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

O'Connor was a fantastic technician, no doubt about that. I respect the man's accomplishments but I don't think he's going to be able to take Chris Benoit. As Mr. Eko said, O'Connor came from an era in which moves that are typical today would have looked extraordinary. When it comes down to overall technical abilities, I'd give the edge to O'Connor but I'd have to give a lot more to Benoit. Benoit was the more powerful of the two, he had that thick stocky muscular build, he could outright brawl like nobody's business and had an arsenal of high impact moves that I don't think O'Connor would be able to take.

I think O'Connor would be able to catch a few falls with something like a quick roll up or a small package with Benoit disoriented. But, in the end, I don't think O'Connor could stand up to the cross face, Benoit's suplex arsenal or the diving head butt.

 

[Viola Moonlight]

Oh... dear... God... I would sell my own grandmother to see this match.

O'Connor is probably one of the best technicians of his time and could go head-to-head with some of the greatest technicians of this time or recent times, stilling giving them a run for their money. He also has Olympic experience too, so you know that this man has trained his heart out and sacrificed so much and then some to get where he needed to be. But against the likes of Chris Benoit? I'm not sure if he could match the intensity for the full length of an Ironman match. I don't think O'Connor would survive a Benoit chop if he got hit by one.

But the man is smart enough to avoid everything and anything Benoit could throw at him. Sure, as X said, it may startle O'Connor by the weird moveset, but his experiences would tell O'Connor to move out the God damn way because something is going to happen. A Benoit chop can be countered into a cradle. So to can the Benoit's suplexes. And if Benoit ascended the top rope, I'm sure O'Connor would sense something crazy coming up and he would just roll out of the way.

I'm speaking from my ass here, but I'm just mesmerised by the match-up. I'm going to trust my team captain on this one and vote for him, because the wrestling factor definitely belongs to the Olympian.

 

[Mr. TM]

Im not sure why anyone would vote against Benoit here. O'Connor wrestled in a time when doing a summersault made hiom look great.


Benoit on the other time was one of the greatest technitions in all of Professional wrestling, he was never against making someone look great, and could easily go the 30 minutes here, submitting him multiple times. O'Connor does not have the resume in AWA/NWA or anywhere else that Benoit does across the wrestling world.

 

[Gelgarin]

I'm not too interested in this thing as a whole; but since one of the greatest legends in professional wrestling history is getting squashed I figured I'd stop in to say a few words. This contest makes me really fucking glad that guys like Lou Thesz didn't make it in to this thing. I know the mentality of "anyone who wrestled before colour TV is inferior to everyone who didn't" is still prevalent on this forum, but the sheer levels of dodgy (or in most cases totally absent) justification is getting beyond outrageous.

Twenty-two votes for Benoit at the time of writing. Of those twenty-two voters I'd estimate that somewhere around six have the first fucking idea about Pat O'Connor's career, and that number diminishes further when you limit your sampling group to those who know enough to make an informed decision.

I haven't pulled out a history lecture for a long time, and for the most part I'm not going to here, because nobody gives a shit. I could rave about how O'Connor was one of the five best scientific wrestlers in American history (for those interested, I rank the other four as Lou Thesz, Verne Gagne, Billy Roberts and Karl Gotch) or how for two years he literally defeated everyone of any kind of merit on the wrestling circuit.

Actually, TM gives me a nice opening to go down that past, so maybe we'll walk to history road a little.

O'Connor does not have the resume in AWA/NWA or anywhere else that Benoit does across the wrestling world.

You're fucking kidding me right? Pat O'Connor's NWA resume includes holding the NWA championship for two and a half years, and defending it against every major talent across America.
He defeated Lou Thesz multiple times, with matches frequently going sixty minutes (or until curfew kicked in). He defended his title against names like Gene Kinski, Fitz Von Erich, Hans Schmidt, Dick Hutton, George Wagnar, Fred Blassie, Don Leo Jonathan, Jonny Valentine, Iron Mike DiBaise, The Sheik, Antonio Rocca, Dory Funk and Bob Orton. (Irish says he fought Sammartino as well - can't find evidence for this myself)

That's a very small sample. It's quicker to name the major players that he didn't defend against, which gives you a list of "Verne Gagne", and that's about it.

By my rough maths I estimate that Pat O'Connor defended the most prestigious championship in wrestling in almost three hundred consecutive matches spread across two years. That's what? A title defence every three days? And please keep in mind that the majority of these went close to or over the half hour mark.

Let us also not forget that, even outside of his NWA title reign, O'Connor was still a main eventer everywhere he went. He went to Japan and pinned Rickidozan. He went to the east coast and pinned Buddy Rogers. O'Connor was one of the biggest players in early wrestling history, and the lack of credit he gets (even from old school fans) is disheartening.

As for Chris Benoit...

Chris Benoit defended his world championship against Kane.

Chris Benoit went more than thirty minutes on a major stage enough times for me to count on my fingers.

If we were going to legitimately compare records or resumes then there is absolutely no chance in hell that Benoit could keep up. They simply weren't in the same league.

Obviously we're not actually going to do that and the previous few paragraphs were just me enjoying myself. We're going to ignore what O'Connor actually accomplished with his career because, as has already been pointed out to me, all old school guys all sucked.

That's right. Lou Thesz - Shit. Verne Gagne - Probably couldn't do a moonsault. Bruno Sammartino - would get killed in the ring by Jack Evans.
Old school guys didn't do flips, dives, or illogical submissions -therefore they all sucked.

Obviously this is bullshit. Even the people saying it think that it's bullshit, and if it weren't IWC *********ion fantasy exhibit B on the other side of the ring then they'd be as appalled as I am. I know this because during an enjoyable period of 'taking the piss' last year I advanced the exact same arguments against Bruno Sammartino (actually I advanced much better arguments) and managed to convert nobody.

Easy victory for Benoit here. Why? Because Pat O'Connor wrestled in an era of wrestling in which even performing a dropkick was considered absolutely insane and would blow the minds of everyone within a 100 mile radius. Fuck the second Benoit would pull out the diving elbow Pat O'Connor would shit himself, he'd probably think Benoit was batshit crazy, and considering what ultimately happened to Benoit, he'd probably be right.

Drop-kicks were pretty standard fair actually, but we'll let that slide. The reason you didn't see guys like Thesz and O'Connor going for dropkicks or suicide dives is because they were up against people who knew what they were doing - and knew pulling crap like that would be a very fast way to loose a match.

You appear to be advancing the theory that since modern wrestlers are able to pepper their arsenals with a bunch of moves and holds that make no logical sense it automatically qualifies that they are better than old school guys.

Personally I take the view that the fact that Benoit was able to make use of a bunch of holds that make no logical sense suggests that he wasn't facing many opponents with serious technical credentials. People in the old days didn't stay down long enough for slow diving head-buts. People in the old days were usually not very well inclined towards letting themselves get put in laborious holds like the sharpshooter, and they sure as fuck wouldn't have put up with Benoit's crossface.

Since guys in the old days invariably had better catch wrestling credentials, I'm inclined to take their side in a battle of 'which style of technical wrestling is superior'.

A few other bits of trivia for you to think over.

1) Benoit was a technician. This fucks him over. If he was a brawler like... say... Stone Cold, then I'd give him more of a chance. Unfortunately, Benoit is going to have to go with the main string of his bow, and that plays straight into Pat O'Connor's hands.

2) This is an iron man match. Pretty much every match O'Connor had for a two and a half year period was contested under 2/3 falls rules, and he won several hundred of them in a row. In addition, iron man matches almost always come down to mat wrestling, which plays perfectly into O'Connor's hands.

3) O'Connor was better conditioned. Nobody is going to try and argue with me on this front are they? Oh wait, Tastycles is. This makes me a sad Gelgarin.

O'Connor was a great wrestler, but I don't think I've ever seen him go past 25 minutes, I just don't think it was the style of the times. His most famous match was a three falls match against Buddy Rogers, which he lost after 21 minutes.

Right; time keeping records from this era are very rare and hard to come by in any kind of logical order (times usually only got recorded in the event of a draw).

O'Connor went twenty minutes + on an extremely regular basis (about... perhaps... thirty times more often than Benoit did - and that's times in the sense of 'multiply the number of 20+ minute matches Benoit had by thirty and you'll get how often O'Conner went that long)

A few easy examples.

January 15, 1959 - Pat O'Connor beat Lou Thesz in 39 minutes.
January 22, 1959 - Pat O’Connor drew Lou Thesz in 50 minutes. (curfew call)
February 6, 1959 - Pat O'Connor beat Gene Kinski in 22 minutes.
October 15, 1959 - Pat O'Connor drew Frank Townsend in 60 minutes.
November 27, 1959 - Pat O'Connor drew Lou Thesz in 60 minutes.
March 22, 1960 - Pat O'Connor drew Dick Hutton in 90 minutes.
August 5, 1960 - Pat O’Connor beat Ed Francis in 60 minutes.

As you can see; O'Connor had absolutely no issues with stamina, durability or conditioning. 60 minutes against Lou Thesz without getting pinned is just about as good a credential of ones ability to absorb punishment as one can get.
As I recall, in his two ironman matches, Chris Benoit managed to get himself pinned a grand total of six times. Not so impressive.

If this was the regular Wrestlezone tournament with it's 'vote for whoever the fuck you want' mentality then I could understand the score; but I was under the impression that this whole thing was supposed to be a Kayfabe contest, in which case Chris Benoit doesn't win, and certainly doesn't win by the current margin.

Obviously there is absolute no chance of changing this now; but hopefully I can guild enough people into getting one of the most unappreciated legends in pro wrestling into double figures.

 

[gd]

Gelgarin convinced me. Sure, it was a different time in wrestling, so it's tough to judge these 2 equally. However, O'Connor was more or less one of the top few guys in the world when he wrestled. I don't think you could ever say the same thing about Benoit, who had 1 lackluster World Title reign. This wouldn't be easy by any means, but I think it's very likely that O'Connor could win here.