Rd. 1 Ironman - Kenta Kobashi (JAP) vs Shawn Michaels (USA)

[IrishCanadian25]

Kenta Kobashi (JAP) vs Shawn Michaels (USA)​

This is a first round Ironman Match in the 2010 Wrestlezolympics. As a first round match, the match will last 30 minutes, and the competitor with the most falls in that time will win. If the score is tied after 30 minutes, sudden death overtime will ensue following a 45-second rest period. First fall will win from there. This match is contested under otherwise normal rules - if a wrestler is disqualified or counted-out, they will lose a fall.

The match will open for discussion on Monday, January 25th, and voting will begin on Wednesday, January 27th. This is a non-spam thread, so if you decide to post, you must provide reasons why you are backing a particular wrestler. You may vote without posting.

 

[Baller]

I am going to take Shawn Michaels on this one. Kenta Kobashi is no slack and is a tough task, but these are the type of matches that Shawn Michaels lives for. He is the show stopper and always comes up big in these type of matches on the grandest stage. In 30 minutes I expect Shawn to either win 2-1 or win in sudden death overtime, but it should be a great match.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

No doubt Shawn Michaesl would get pounded on for a good 20 minutes before he miraculously scores a pinfall for the victory, oh no wait, the first fall. I'm not an expert on endurance, but I'm certain nobody can get pounded on like HBK get's pounded on for an hour and still come out with a victory.

Kobashi has a weight advantage and he's also used to long, physically taxing matches.

In the one Iron Man match I've seen Michaels participate in, he spent 45 minutes thinking up moves to do in the final 15 minutes and he still couldn't get the job done against a similarly sized opponent in the alloted time.

 

[D-Man]

Kobashi is a powerhouse with tons of stamina. For those who aren't familiar, most Japanese wrestlers still follow the path of the "old school" and rely on stamina in their matches in the same way that Ricky Steamboat and Ric Flair used to. This can prove to be extremely dangerous for HBK.

However, we all know that Michaels had a classic clinic with Bret Hart, one of the greatest wrestlers of all time, and came out with a victory. But, he was only able to score one pinfall against the legend, and that was in overtime. Some may feel this makes HBK weak, but you also need to take into consideration that he didn't get pinned in that time period, either. So this shows his superior resiliency. On the other hand, Bret was also a much smaller opponent than Kobashi and he was less powerful. It's a real see-saw, statistical battle here.

Kobashi just seems more well-rounded here. HBK is famous for his work in the Ironman match at WM, but really did nothing in that match to convince me that in a kayfabe world, he'd be able to score multiple pinfalls on Kobashi... especially enough of them to be more than what Kobashi is capable of doing.

Maybe I've got to give this some more thought...

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

I am going to take Shawn Michaels on this one. Kenta Kobashi is no slack and is a tough task, but these are the type of matches that Shawn Michaels lives for. He is the show stopper and always comes up big in these type of matches on the grandest stage. In 30 minutes I expect Shawn to either win 2-1 or win in sudden death overtime, but it should be a great match.

Kid, give me a break; you obviously have no clue what you're talking about. Hmm...am I going to take someone who weighs 190 pounds and whose one noted Iron Man match consisted of a ton of rest holds, or am I going to go with someone who weighs 265 pounds but can go for 45 minutes at non-stop full-speed in his sleep?

Kobashi punishes Michaels in every way imaginable. Of course, I'll be making a longer post in this thread, but I couldn't help myself from responding to the bullshit that's already been posted. Oh, and along with my post, I'll be linking some awesome Kobashi matches which I'm sure none of you will watch but will say you did so you can say Shawn Michaels is better .

 

[klunderbunker]

I'm split here. Kobashi is a legend, period. At the same time though, this is Shawn Michaels. He couldn't draw to save his life, but the man could put on some damn fine wrestling matches and made his career out of miraculous comebacks. The key thing is Shawn has to only get one fall to win and then he can run. That being said, it's Kobashi. If you've never seen it, watch his match with Samoa Joe. It's a damn performance to say the least. I'm split still and don't know who I'm going for yet.

 

[LascoX]

Micheals comes at him like a chainsaw attacking a petrified log. Dispite his best efforts after 25 minutes Shawn takes the fall as the fatigued Micheals cannot kick the bigger opponant off.

 

[No Hype]

I am going with Michaels on this one. I have seen both of these men wrestle in person and if this match ever took place it could sell out the new cowboys stadium. Kobashi is no slouch but HBK has done the impossible and will continue to. All he has to do is slap on the figer-four leg lock and Kobashi's bad knees will make him tap.

Yes Shawn's back is shot but Kenta isn't exactly a spring chicken he has had as many surgeries has Shawn and Shawn's submission is designed to put pressure on the lower body which is Kenta's weak point.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

I am going with Michaels on this one. I have seen both of these men wrestle in person and if this match ever took place it could sell out the new cowboys stadium. Kobashi is no slouch but HBK has done the impossible and will continue to. All he has to do is slap on the figer-four leg lock and Kobashi's bad knees will make him tap.

Yes Shawn's back is shot but Kenta isn't exactly a spring chicken he has had as many surgeries has Shawn and Shawn's submission is designed to put pressure on the lower body which is Kenta's weak point.

How many times has HBK used the figure four and how many times has somebody tapped to it? I don't think anybody so Kobashi is not going to submit to it. Kobashi will have Michaels fighting for his life and if HBK couldn't get a pinfall over Bret Hart in 60 minutes, what makes you think he will get one over a stronger and possibly better opponent in thirty minutes. I say Kobashi will win this with a score of 3-1.

 

[No Hype]

How many times has HBK used the figure four and how many times has somebody tapped to it? I don't think anybody so Kobashi is not going to submit to it.

True it is not used as often but in recent years it has become much more prevalent in HBK's move set and HBK has made submissions victories with it, and could again especially with Kobashi's horrible knees.

Kobashi will have Michaels fighting for his life and if HBK couldn't get a pinfall over Bret Hart in 60 minutes, what makes you think he will get one over a stronger and possibly better opponent in thirty minutes. I say Kobashi will win this with a score of 3-1.

Because during that time Hart could get a fall over Micheal's either. Shawn might not be the biggest dog in the fight but I have never seen a bigger fight in the dog. That being said Shawn isn't going to make this a brawl so I call Shawn making the first fall and then avoiding Kobashi for the remainder of the match.

 

[The Underking]

I just cheacked Kenta Kobashis entire career lot's of five star matches no experience in Ironman matches where you need to use time to your advantage. I could see at the beggining Shawn getting his back side pounded but coming in and getting a cheap pin or a sweet chin music out of nowhere and pretty much ducking all of Kenta's manuevers considering at Wrestlemainia 25 Shawn took all four of Undertakers finishers and one more tombstone to finally be put down. Shawn Micheals for the win

 

[Mantaur Rodeo Clown]

Just adding in that it's not as if HBK has never had a match go for over 20 minutes before. Everyone is quite intent on saying "Well he's only really been in an Ironman Match at Wrestlemania XII, so he can't really go". HBK can and has wrestled matches that have gone well over the 30 minute mark that is set my the stipulations in this match, and he's wrestled past the 60 minute mark on occasion also.

I'm not slinging him my vote just yet, but I just want to put a damper on the fact that he's going to be dead after 10 minutes and Kobashi won't be. He's drawn with both Kurt Angle and Bret Hart in Ironman matches, both considered to be some of the greatest wrestlers of all time. Then again, Kobashi is as an all time great as well.

 

[FromTheSouth]

I am going to go with Michaels here. We can ignore actual ironman matches, and look at marathons. HBK went forty minutes with The Undertaker, took three tombstones, and was pinned once. What is Kobashi going to do to Michaels that Taker didn't? Are we now saying that Kobashi is more brutal, delivers more punishment, or hits harder than the best pure striker in the game?

If it's a thirty minute match, I say Michaels does his best Floyd Mayweather impression and gets on his bike for thirty minutes and sneaks a superkick in at the end to win 1-0.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

All the sneaking around Kobashi isn't going to do Michaels any favors because he runs the risk of being counted out and that will make Kobashi even madder and if he catches him once, it's all over. I would even throw out it out there that Kobashi may go the Lesnar route and use a chair or any other weapon to lose a fall just to weaken HBK up and work on him from there. Kobashi will get a pinfall victory and win overall. Ya'll make it seem like Kobashi is a jobber who won't even get a pin on HBK. I believe Angle got 1 or 2 in his 30-min iron man match with HBK five years ago.

 

[Tastycles]

Firstly, am I the only person that read the description, this is a 30 minute match. Michaels has drawn both of the Iron Man matches he was in against similarly sized opponents. He has won against Giants, but I can't remember a decisive victory in a long match that he has had against a guy who is bigger, but not huge. Kobashi's stamina means that Michaels being smaller holds absolutely zero advantage, and I expect Kobashi would win this one in regulation time, something like 2-1, and go on to be guaranteed a medal match.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

I am going with Michaels on this one. I have seen both of these men wrestle in person and if this match ever took place it could sell out the new cowboys stadium. Kobashi is no slouch but HBK has done the impossible and will continue to. All he has to do is slap on the figer-four leg lock and Kobashi's bad knees will make him tap.

Yes Shawn's back is shot but Kenta isn't exactly a spring chicken he has had as many surgeries has Shawn and Shawn's submission is designed to put pressure on the lower body which is Kenta's weak point.

I'd be hard pressed to find a match where Kobashi actually tapped. Also, I seriously doubt someone who came back to wrestle at the age of 40 after surviving kidney cancer won't have enough will to endure a figure-four leg lock. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Kobashi could hang with Michaels even without the use of his legs; Kobashi just flat-our wants it more, and he has shown this in almost every single match that he has ever partaken in.

I just cheacked Kenta Kobashis entire career lot's of five star matches no experience in Ironman matches where you need to use time to your advantage. I could see at the beggining Shawn getting his back side pounded but coming in and getting a cheap pin or a sweet chin music out of nowhere and pretty much ducking all of Kenta's manuevers considering at Wrestlemainia 25 Shawn took all four of Undertakers finishers and one more tombstone to finally be put down. Shawn Micheals for the win

Kobashi's taken just as much, if not more, punishment than Michaels took from The Undertaker at WM 25 in multiple matches. For proof, just go on ahead and look up Kobashi's match with Vader on 15 January 1999 (here I'll post it for you):

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What would be considered an excessive amount of punishment and near-falls in WWE are the norm for guys like Kobashi. Also, you are technically correct in saying that Kobashi has never partaken in any Iron Man matches per se, but this doesn't mean that he hasn't participated in lengthy matches throughout his career. In fact, I'd hazard to guess that the average length of his matches is somewhere between 20 and 30 minutes; Kobashi matches lasting from 45 minutes to an hour are not a rarity.

Ultimately, except for multiple falls. there's no difference between an Iron Man match and a one fall match lasting anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour.

Just adding in that it's not as if HBK has never had a match go for over 20 minutes before. Everyone is quite intent on saying "Well he's only really been in an Ironman Match at Wrestlemania XII, so he can't really go". HBK can and has wrestled matches that have gone well over the 30 minute mark that is set my the stipulations in this match, and he's wrestled past the 60 minute mark on occasion also.

I'm not slinging him my vote just yet, but I just want to put a damper on the fact that he's going to be dead after 10 minutes and Kobashi won't be. He's drawn with both Kurt Angle and Bret Hart in Ironman matches, both considered to be some of the greatest wrestlers of all time. Then again, Kobashi is as an all time great as well.

No one's saying that Michaels doesn't have what it takes to participate in an Iron Man match. What we're saying is that his opponent outmatches him in almost every way imaginable, and that what few edges Michaels does have over Kobashi are more than made up for with Kobashi's indomitable fighting spirit.

I am going to go with Michaels here. We can ignore actual ironman matches, and look at marathons. HBK went forty minutes with The Undertaker, took three tombstones, and was pinned once. What is Kobashi going to do to Michaels that Taker didn't? Are we now saying that Kobashi is more brutal, delivers more punishment, or hits harder than the best pure striker in the game?

If it's a thirty minute match, I say Michaels does his best Floyd Mayweather impression and gets on his bike for thirty minutes and sneaks a superkick in at the end to win 1-0.

Kobashi is just as brutal, delivers just as much punishment, and hits just as hard as the Undertaker. I'd go so far as to say that Kobashi would beat The Undertaker on any single day save for the one on which Wrestlemania takes place.

 

[The Underking]

Wait one second poster above me your saying that Kobashi is as brutal as the undertaker when all of these people have been saying that it's because Kobashi is heavier is the current argument with stamina. While i did enjoy his matches how much does this guy wrestle i mean Undertaker's like 45 and wrestles a longer schedule then him fact.

Now who would you think put better matches two veterans yet one wrestles once evrey two months while one wrestles evrey other day i think both SHawn and Mark have better stamina.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Wait one second poster above me your saying that Kobashi is as brutal as the undertaker when all of these people have been saying that it's because Kobashi is heavier is the current argument with stamina. While i did enjoy his matches how much does this guy wrestle i mean Undertaker's like 45 and wrestles a longer schedule then him fact.

Now who would you think put better matches two veterans yet one wrestles once evrey two months while one wrestles evrey other day i think both SHawn and Mark have better stamina.

Kobashi has wrestled thirty minutes consisently his entire career and you say Shawn and the Undertaker have better stamina. When's the last time Shawn and Undertaker wrestled a match thirty minutes or over? It has been a while. Kobashi can handle everything Shawn will throw at him (which isn't much in my opinion) and will beat him in an iron man match. Shawn isn't going against some guy that is going to gas in ten minutes. He's going against one of the Japanese greats and that is a tough task no matter who you are.

 

[The Underking]

You never awnsewred my question but like i said im sure that if undertaker's career started in 1990 and his rise started 1995 he could probably still be in better shape. The last 30 minute match Undertaker had him normally i would do what evreybody does and frantically check the internet i remember that Shawn vs. Undertaker was 25 minutes. The TLC match was 29 so that counts or should. Then i noticed a big diffrence WWE shows have more then one people on it Smackdown and Raw try to present evreybody in 5-10 minute matches and the other wrestle Indy's. Also like i stated above you go doing one match evrey 2-3 days at 45 compared to training for a month and preforming one match.

Im not saying that Kobashi is bad. Im just saying the argument with him is sort of flawed saying that he's heavier so that Shawn won't be able to win but then going and saying Kobashi would beat Undertaker evrey single day whose heavier if we use that logic.

Now that I check it Shawn vs. Taker was 31 minutes

 

[X]

Anyone who votes for Shawn Michaels here is full of shit and has probably never even seen Kobashi wrestle. That or they're just really, really fucking stupid. Shawn Michaels has been in a grand total of ONE hour-long match, a match which was 99% full of rest holds and which he couldn't even score one pinfall until AFTER the time limit expired.

Kenta Kobashi? Yeah, I can show you three HOUR LONG matches the man has competed in over the last fucking YEAR alone. Literally, anyone who questions this, feel free to PM me and I'll send you links to about 9000 different matches Kobashi has competed in that were up to and over an hour long, and not full of rest holds either, no, nonstop action hours that will keep you glued to the fucking screen. The man outweighs HBK, he is BY FUCKING FAR the better in-ring worker (anyone who wants to argue that, I will verbally fucking bitch slap you right now), there isn't a fucking chance in hell that HBK would win this contest, not a chance in fucking hell.

Seriously, I know 99.9% of you on this forum wouldn't know anything about Japanese wrestling if it kicked you in the fucking jaw, but do not vote in this match up if you know nothing about Kobashi (which clearly anyone who voted for HBK doesn't).

I challenge ANYONE to show me one facet of professional wrestling in which HBK is superior to Kobashi. Anything. Better worker? Kobashi. Better storyteller? Kobashi. Bigger draw? Kobashi. Better strength and conditioning? Kobashi. Literally, name it, Kobashi is superior.

I'm throwing down the gauntlet right now kids. I challenge any of you to attempt to argue HBK of having a chance in hell of winning this match. He has no chance, at all, whatsoever. This should be a fucking 100-0 squash in favor of Kobashi, and the only reason it isn't thus far is because most of you have never even seen a Kobashi match.

Vote for Kobashi, or you're just a fucking moron. Pretty simple. And this is coming from a person who has considered HBK one of his favorite wrestlers since I was six years old.

 

[X]

I am going to go with Michaels here. We can ignore actual ironman matches, and look at marathons. HBK went forty minutes with The Undertaker, took three tombstones, and was pinned once. What is Kobashi going to do to Michaels that Taker didn't? Are we now saying that Kobashi is more brutal, delivers more punishment, or hits harder than the best pure striker in the game?

Umm...FUCK YES. When the fuck did Undertaker become the best pure striker in the game? Are you huffing gasoline? Only in America would you hear wrestling fans say something so absurd. HBK has been in what, a grand total of maybe a dozen matches that were half an hour in length? Shit I'll be generous, let's say he has fucking A HUNDRED matches over 30 minutes under his belt. Still doesn't even crack Kobashi. If you'd like FTS I will fucking send you DVDs of Kobashi's work, but don't expect more than one or two matches per disc because these DVDs only hold 2 1/2 hours worth of footage, and good luck finding a Kobashi main event less than 30 minutes. It's nearly impossible. Kobashi is far and away a superior wrestle to both Undertaker and HBK, and could deliver more punishment to HBK than he's ever had in his entire fucking life man. Go watch Kobashi's match with Misawa in NOAH in 2003, both men were in their 40s, just like HBK and Taker during their big WM 25 match, and they made HBK/Taker look like fucking cripples in comparison. Their WM 25 match was 90% rest holds with a moonsault and a Tombstone thrown in for good measure. Kobashi and Misawa wrestled for nearly 50 minutes fucking throwing German suplexes back and forth onto CONCRETE FLOORS like they were 20 year old cruiserweights.

If it's a thirty minute match, I say Michaels does his best Floyd Mayweather impression and gets on his bike for thirty minutes and sneaks a superkick in at the end to win 1-0.

And I say you have absolutely no idea of what you're talking about right now. HBK in his prime couldn't even match the conditioning of Kobashi as he is RIGHT NOW and the man is nearly 50 years old. The man has destroyed his body so much over the years from his insanely intense wrestling style and length of matches that it literally hurts the man to fucking move his arms, and yet he STILL goes out and wrestles several times a month. The man has more stamina in his pinky toe than HBK has in his entire body multiplied by twenty.

 

[The Underking]

Better Draw probably Japan but in America say that he's coming. They will guess he's a nobody i can assure you say they were selling Shawn Micheals best hit vs. Kobashis Shawn's would sell alot more. For the rest i only watched his match against Vader. So yes why should i watch Kobashi if i've never heard about him get your name out thier or it's not relevent in other areas im pretty sure Bret Hart was a draw evreywhere why he was on TV.

 

[X]

Better Draw probably Japan but in America say that he's coming. They will guess he's a nobody i can assure you say they were selling Shawn Micheals best hit vs. Kobashis Shawn's would sell alot more. For the rest i only watched his match against Vader. So yes why should i watch Kobashi if i've never heard about him get your name out thier or it's not relevent in other areas im pretty sure Bret Hart was a draw evreywhere why he was on TV.

So, it's painfully obvious you aren't very intelligent just from your constant grammatical errors here, but sure, I'll respond anyways to your absolutely foolish post.

1) No shit if you take someone OUT OF THEIR HOME COUNTRY they're going to be less of a draw. Kobashi came to America a few times to work with ROH and every one of those sold out immediately. Shawn Michaels has been to Japan ONCE to perform as a guest referee and that was for the independent promotion FMW, and they barely were able to fill a bingo hall. So, like I said, take someone out of their home country, no shit they're going to be less of a draw. Has HBK ever drawn nearly 100,000 people to watch him wrestle annually? No? Then he's not nearly the draw that Kobashi is. I'd need an extra pair of hands to count the amount of Tokyo Dome sellouts Kobashi has headlined.

2) The fact that you admit you don't know anything about Kenta Kobashi proves my fucking point here that you shouldn't be voting in this and shouldn't be arguing for HBK, because you yourself admit that you're uneducated on this topic. Kenta Kobashi is far and away superior to HBK in every way, and if you would actually watch the man's work you'd see that. How the fuck can you argue against the man when you've just admitted you know NOTHING about him? That's beyond foolish, it's fucking absurd.

Not sure what the fuck Bret Hart being a draw has to do with this topic either. Feel free to respond to this post. Shit feel free to write a 250 page long essay about why HBK should win, because it doesn't matter, I'll easiily defeat your foolish argument which is full of more holes than a block of swiss cheese.

Don't try to argue something if you freely admit you're completely uneducated on the matter.

 

[The Underking]

When did I say I was completely uneducated I even said I watched one match dear. Of course though what I was saying was your argument of Kobashi being a bigger draw. Do a tour in every single part of the world once again Shawn will get more people. Maybe Kobashi is better in ring but bigger draw i seriously don't think so and the point being that people vote for Shawn is because they have seen a match of him. Shawn has taking a lot of beatings if i can say anything though whenever Smack down or Raw go to Puerto Rico the whole freaking crowd gave Shawn the biggest pop of the night against Chris Jericho who was freaking hilarious. So once again get Kobashi in the P.R unless the tickets are five bucks I won't and neither will most people be there Fact.

 

[X]

When did I say I was completely uneducated I even said I watched one match dear.

You said it right here:

For the rest i only watched his match against Vader. So yes why should i watch Kobashi if i've never heard about him

You said right there that you had only watched his match against Vader, and that was it. If you think watching ONE match from someone is enough information to judge their entire career, yes, that's called being uneducated on the matter.

Of course though what I was saying was your argument of Kobashi being a bigger draw. Do a tour in every single part of the world once again Shawn will get more people.

Except for Japan. Because, like I just mentioned, HBK came to Japan once and they could barely fill a bingo hall. And this was in 1999, when his legend was at an all time high. Kobashi regularly headlined events of nearly 100,000 people at the Tokyo Dome. I'm fairly certain HBK has never even wrestled infront of a single crowd that large, unless he took part in the 95 North Korea Peace Festival.

Maybe Kobashi is better in ring but bigger draw i seriously don't think so

You'd seriously be wrong. Again, how many 100,000+ crowds has HBK drawn? And it's not a "maybe" Kobashi is better in the ring, it's an absolute fact.

and the point being that people vote for Shawn is because they have seen a match of him. Shawn has taking a lot of beatings if i can say anything though whenever Smack down or Raw go to Puerto Rico the whole freaking crowd gave Shawn the biggest pop of the night against Chris Jericho who was freaking hilarious. So once again get Kobashi in the P.R unless the tickets are five bucks I won't and neither will most people be there Fact.

What the fuck does drawing fans in Puerto Rico have to do witih this match? Seriously, explain to me what relevancy that has here. Is this a "Who can draw the most" match? Nope, it sure as fuck is not.

Save yourself further embarrassment and just log off man. You quite clearly just don't know what the hell you're talking about.